SWTOR finally going P2W

[robertthebard]

We don't know enough to call it "pay to win" yet.

 

However, it does sound pay to win, in a way that nothing else in this game ever has. The situation where you can buy cartel packs, push them on the GTN for credits, and then use those credits to purchase BIS gear, is pretty much textbook pay to win. There's never been a time in SWTOR, FFXIV, or WoW, where the top gear in the game is available for real world cash- breaking that line is definitely a bad idea.

 

These guys could have a lot of thoughts about how to avoid this. The augments were fine at this: they were a nice piece that was part of your complete BiS gearset that interacted just fine with the GTN, and ultimately no one cares about someone getting top tier augments with cartel coins, using the GTN as an intermediary. The description given to us sorta implies that this will apply to the entire gearset.

 

I've never understood why more games don't simply put different BiS pieces from different sources. Maybe they have metrics that show that is unpopular or bad for some reason.

 

 

Anyway, putting BiS everything subject to the in-game economy, which is in turn subject to the cartel market, is pretty much pay to win. I'll still wait to avoid judgment until we hear the final plan on this, but it's absolutely worth being concerned about.

 

It's absolutely not worth being concerned about. The gear is crafted, not sold on the CM, just as the augments are now. I find it amusing that you're ok with the augments, but believe that craftable top tier gear is P2W...

[omaan]

Hate to say this, but this is something BW is already doing to PvE players. Lets face the truth. CMT's drop pathetically low in crates, so they're basically pushing PvE players to do content they don't necessarily want to be doing either. It's not good for either group honestly, but BW has already shown they'll do it.

 

Thats why both utcs and new mats for new tier gear MUST DROP FROM BOTH RANKED AND HARD MODE PVE. Obvious for everyone that it is the best way to fix most of issues here which is pay2win, forcing people to play content they dint want to play etc. I sont understand why devs are so blind

[aerockyul]

Thats why both utcs and new mats for new tier gear MUST DROP FROM BOTH RANKED AND HARD MODE PVE. Obvious for everyone that it is the best way to fix most of issues here which is pay2win, forcing people to play content they dint want to play etc. I sont understand why devs are so blind

 

I think you forgot the "L" between p and a when you say pay2win, because what you just described is exactly that.

[mhobin]

I think you forgot the "L" between p and a when you say pay2win, because what you just described is exactly that.

 

Play2win with a pay option if you don’t feel like it.

[Andryah]

I find it amusing that you're ok with the augments, but believe that craftable top tier gear is P2W...

 

Indeed. Which further exemplifies that the entire basis of this thread topic is biased and subjective.. with almost zero objectivity at all.

 

If 240 augments were not P2W... which I think most players accept as objective fact.. then by objective correlation neither will the new crafted gear be P2W since if follows exactly the same in game mechanics to acquire it.

 

And it's not like people were not bent about the fair market pricing surrounding the 240 augments... being as they needed rare mat drops that had to be farmed in game. But at least they understood it was a question of economics vs value.. and did not run off and jump the shark with P2W memes.

 

Honestly I think the unstated objections are more about there being yet another tier of gear being released prior to 6.0... but it's more hyperbolic and prone to passion wars in the forum to go with the P2W nonsense, rather then have a reasoned discussion and differing viewpoints about the gear itself and how it will be obtained.

 

Now.. setting all this aside.... smart players will think twice before chasing what will clearly be at best a small incremental power increase with this new gear... ahead of 6.0...even though it is crafted rather then GC or UC or OPs sourced. Afterall.. 220 was top end gear prior to 5.0 and once 5.0 released... you could get 220/228 gear or mods immediately from crafting, as well as from drops in game.. which meant that 5.0 immediately destroyed the value (other then pulling an armor mod for set bonus) of pre-5.0 armor. this was equally true of the move from 3.0 to 4.0 as well. The reasons for this is because an expac typically comes with a level increase as well as a notable jump in power and effectiveness of any new gear that drops or is crafted as well. Whereas any new tiers released between expacs is most often small incremental boosts in power and functionality. So.. all this gnashing of teeth and beating of chests drama about the new crafted gear is kind of silly in the wider scheme of things.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Andryah

[Toraak]

Thats why both utcs and new mats for new tier gear MUST DROP FROM BOTH RANKED AND HARD MODE PVE. Obvious for everyone that it is the best way to fix most of issues here which is pay2win, forcing people to play content they dint want to play etc. I sont understand why devs are so blind

 

As it was described, it's not P2W regardless. Get your definition correct.

 

P2W= Buy directly from the company, in this case purchase directly off the CM for RL money. You can't get the item/gear any other way.

 

This is the only way for it to be P2W, and since you can get it in game by doing certain activities it automatically means it can't be P2W.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Toraak

[Malkosha]

I can imagine the Dev's with mouths hanging open at the shear stupidity of some of their players. The system has not been implemented. It has not been discussed. It has not been revealed yet so many people are already either condemning this as P2W or defending it with neither side having any idea of what's really going on.

 

Will it be crafting as we know it now? Will it be a new system that resembles crafting in name only? Will it be something completely different and until now unknown? No one knows, yet we are already playing the Love it / Hate it game and having some very serious discussions on it even though it doesn't exist.

 

Yes, taking sides for something that doesn't exist and has no sides does seem a little stupid. Oh you silly humans, For beings with no clue I will say you do put on a great show!

[TalonVII]

This game is one? SINCE WHEN?! And why have I not gotten my "I win" button?

 

I swear some people use the term P2W. I don't think they understand what that means?

 

Want p2w? Go play Battlestar Galactica Online. That my friends is P2W.

[ALaggyGrunt]

There's a huge selection bias. Of course there aren't going to be many people here who find this to be pay-to-win. Most of those already left.

 

There are two kinds of one percenters who will not mind how the new system changes top-end gameplay (particularly PvP and NiM raiding): the 1% who can throw $$$$ at the CM willy-nilly, and those who are swimming in credits and can buy at least a set for their main.

 

Then there are people like me, who have credits to throw at the cosmetic items which are going to be dumped on GTN in order to buy the new BiS stuff by those one percenters, and who haven't set foot in a warzone in a long time.

Edited September 9, 2018 by ALaggyGrunt

[IanArgent]

There's a huge selection bias. Of course there aren't going to be many people here who find this to be pay-to-win. Most of those already left.

 

There are two kinds of one percenters who will not mind how the new system changes top-end gameplay (particularly PvP and NiM raiding): the 1% who can throw $$$$ at the CM willy-nilly, and those who are swimming in credits and can buy at least a set for their main.

 

Then there are people like me, who have credits to throw at the cosmetic items which are going to be dumped on GTN in order to buy the new BiS stuff by those one percenters, and who haven't set foot in a warzone in a long time.

 

I'm no SWTOR 1%er; I I certainly don't convert CM purchases to credits, and I can't be bothered to save up many credits at any one go; and this is no more Pay to Win than anything else in the game.

 

If I want credits, I get them the old-fashioned way; I grind them from the designated credit fountains; right now, heroics. Only I'm pretty lazy, so it's not much of a grind.

 

The people selling these mods have to have gotten the mats and schematics someplace, and they didn't get those by sending cash to EA. Those come from playing the game.

 

If the mats and schematics came from EA on the CM, yeah, that'd be P2W. They don't. No P2W.

[Andryah]

There's a huge selection bias. Of course there aren't going to be many people here who find this to be pay-to-win. Most of those already left.

 

Yeah.. sure. But let's go with your wild assumption for a moment and put a realistic lens on it... IF... they did leave.. it was to go play an actual P2W game.. there are certainly plenty to go around in the industry who gate items behind direct payment of real money to the studio as the ONLY way to obtain said item.

 

There are two kinds of one percenters who will not mind how the new system changes top-end gameplay (particularly PvP and NiM raiding): the 1% who can throw $$$$ at the CM willy-nilly, and those who are swimming in credits and can buy at least a set for their main.

 

Your attempt to apply a political pejorative here to justify your position is .... sad.

 

Yes.. there are many wealthy players in game.. who got wealthy in game... playing the game.. and playing the economic side of it well. They did the effort to be so.. so they do deserve the rewards for their efforts. Jealous?

 

Yes.. there are some players (commonly referred to as whales by forumites) who have limited play time, but do have disposable real income that they can use the CM and onward to the GTN as vehicles to give them credit leverage to make up for the lack of time leverage for them personally. An approach by the way that is completely OK under the ToS/EULA for this game. And their actions actually help let other players who do not have disposable income to spare but do have time ---> to benefit in equal measure. Win for everyone really... except the player who is so disorganized and lacking in focus to build their own internal economic foundation to play the game... just like in every other MMO.

 

There are also enterprising players that acquire thousands and thousands of CCs through working their referral link with other players.... and never actually spend real money in the process. It is allowed under the ToS/EULA and more power to them for their efforts in my view.

 

You too can do any combination of the above... you just have to have a plan and focus on your plan.. rather then squeezing sour grapes all over the forum.

 

What exactly is your point though? Credit Poor, poorly organized to serve you own personal in game needs in terms of resources, or just sour grapes. You too can be a 1%er if you choose to and set a plan to do so. In fact.. I would submit that it is much easier to become an effective and notable 1%er in an MMO then in real life. There is no remedy for the lazy though.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Andryah

[BRKMSN]

I can imagine the Dev's with mouths hanging open at the shear stupidity of some of their players. The system has not been implemented. It has not been discussed. It has not been revealed yet so many people are already either condemning this as P2W or defending it with neither side having any idea of what's really going on.

 

Will it be crafting as we know it now? Will it be a new system that resembles crafting in name only? Will it be something completely different and until now unknown? No one knows, yet we are already playing the Love it / Hate it game and having some very serious discussions on it even though it doesn't exist.

 

Yes, taking sides for something that doesn't exist and has no sides does seem a little stupid. Oh you silly humans, For beings with no clue I will say you do put on a great show!

Agreed, but not surprised.

 

For all we know, the tier 5 gear will require Command level 300. We might as well wait for more info before loving / hating "it."

[robertthebard]

Agreed, but not surprised.

 

For all we know, the tier 5 gear will require Command level 300. We might as well wait for more info before loving / hating "it."

 

The problem is, of course, that some of us aren't loving or hating the system, just hating the bastardization of common gaming terms, such as P2W in order to support a narrative. The biggest argument for this system being P2W was the post a few pages back talking about microtransactions being predatory, and causing children to run up huge credit card bills. Obvious problems with that statement aside, that has absolutely nothing to do with a system to craft, which is an in game activity, top tier gear being P2W, just a dislike of microtransactions. IF the only way to get the schematics is to buy them from CM, I'll jump straight on the bandwagon of P2W, with no hesitation. Until then, nope.

[giorgo]

 

Yes.. there are many wealthy players in game.. who got wealthy in game... playing the game.. and playing the economic side of it well. They did the effort to be so.. so they do deserve the rewards for their efforts. Jealous?

So the rewards for having a "wealth plan" and playing the economic side of a game is...BiS gear for a content they may or may not do.Wow! And here I was, thinking that running a certain content must give rewards for said content.

Some cool hard logic in there dude.

Impressed as always ...

[Andryah]

So the rewards for having a "wealth plan" and playing the economic side of a game is...BiS gear for a content they may or may not do.Wow! And here I was, thinking that running a certain content must give rewards for said content.

Some cool hard logic in there dude.

Impressed as always ...

 

LMAO .... another drive by ? ......

 

A) there is NO indication yet that these new crafted items will be BiS.. that is just a wild biased presumption on your part to help you press your viewpoint. Since crafted.. it will lack any set bonus and if they follow pattern... it will be only a modest boost in stat power and AF which many players will say is less useful then set bonus.

 

B) YES.. in fact.. any player that takes the initiative to actually plan for and them realize their in game resource needs (credits are nothing but a resource) is rewarded with...... now pay close attention here --> the ability to buy anything they want or choose to that is acquirable with credits. Same goes for any other resource in game.... though in most cases credits can purchase said resources from other players... which is why smart players will figure out what level of credit wealth they need in game and work for it.

 

C) NOT everything in the game can be acquired via credits.. which is why players can and will PvP... and run OPs. One example is gear with set bonus. And you know what.. crafted gear has never, in the almost 7 years of this game, ever provided any set bonus.

 

D) The wealthy players are typically wealthy for, among other things, NOT buying things they do not actually need... so no..... you assumption on that part is completely specious.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

The problem is, of course, that some of us aren't loving or hating the system, just hating the bastardization of common gaming terms, such as P2W in order to support a narrative.

 

Yep.

 

The biggest argument for this system being P2W was the post a few pages back talking about microtransactions being predatory, and causing children to run up huge credit card bills. Obvious problems with that statement aside, that has absolutely nothing to do with a system to craft, which is an in game activity, top tier gear being P2W, just a dislike of microtransactions.

 

Yep.

 

IF the only way to get the schematics is to buy them from CM, I'll jump straight on the bandwagon of P2W, with no hesitation. Until then, nope.

 

Yep.. that would in fact be P2W and I do not play MMOs with any P2W in them... so that would mean I would table the game.

[giorgo]

Ah... another drive by I see ......

 

A) there is NO indication yet that these new crafted items will be BiS.. that is just a wild biased presumption on your part to help you press your viewpoint.

 

B) YES.. in fact.. any player that takes the initiative to actually plan for and them realize their in game resource needs (credits are nothing but a resource) is rewarded with...... now pay close attention here --> the ability to buy anything they want or choose to that is acquirable with credits. Same goes for any other resource in game.... though in most cases credits can purchase said resources from other players... which is why smart players will figure out what level of credit wealth they need in game and work for it.

 

C) NOT everything in the game can be acquired via credits.. which is why players can and will PvP... and run OPs. One example is gear with set bonus. And you know what.. crafted gear has never, in the almost 7 years of this game, ever provided any set bonus.

 

D) The wealthy players are typically wealthy for, among other things, NOT buying things they do not actually need... so no..... you assumption on that part is completely specious.

/facepalm

Tier 5 means one tier above tier 4 so it will be BiS, what is so hard to understand about it? In their recent stream the devs mentioned that this gear will be a MM drop and it will make the rest of the content easier.

You are in full denial mode.Hilarious.

[Aeneas_Falco]

It would be a pay to win system if there are no changes made to PVP to accommodate for the highest gear tier only being available via crafting, and likely needing mats only obtainable through Hard Mode Ops or the GTN. It was after all announced that a new crafting material would be introduced that would be obtained through Hard Mode Ops. Presumably those mats would be used for crafting the new gear, the same way that CMTs are needed to craft the highest tiered augments.

 

Given that these new mats would be harder to obtain than CMTs in that they actually require the clearing of HM content, while any player can queue Ranked and get their CMTs even if they do nothing but get globalled, the new mats will presumably also be more expensive than CMTs. Expensive mats translates into expensive crafted gear. One needs only to look at the prices of the current BiS augments to see that we're probably talking about crafted gear pieces that sell for double digit millions each. A full set of crafted BiS may well cost in excess of 100,00,000 if obtained entirely from the GTN.

 

If PVPers who aren't crafters must spend in excess of 100,000,000 for a full set of BiS, and BiS holds an advantage in PVP over those without (as in Bolster doesn't adequately compensate), you will almost certainly have people buying from the CM and flipping those items on the GTN to get the creds for their BiS. While some players have well in excess of that amount the great majority of players have far, far, less. They would be priced out without spending real world money to convert to credits for their GTN purchases. While that might be good for Bioware and EA, it will be an example of pay-to-win.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

[TrixxieTriss]

As it was described, it's not P2W regardless. Get your definition correct.

 

P2W= Buy directly from the company, in this case purchase directly off the CM for RL money. You can't get the item/gear any other way.

 

This is the only way for it to be P2W, and since you can get it in game by doing certain activities it automatically means it can't be P2W.

 

Ok, so there’s an extra step to it. That doesn’t mean people aren’t going to pay real money to sell armor sets on the GTN to get enough credits to be able to afford the crafted gear.

 

It’s still pay to win the same as if you buy credits off third party sites. If you are using real money to generate credits in the game to buy the best gear, then that’s pay to win in my book.

 

Your definition of P2W is just different to ours. For a lot of us, PW2 = using real money to buy gear. It doesn’t matter the way you convert it from real money to being able to get the gear as long as that is the goal.

 

If this crafted gear is hard to craft, then prices will be astronomical. Some people will look at ways of paying real money to get that gear, wether it is buying from gold sellers or buying CC and Cartel market stuff to flip for the credits.

 

What’s sad is if this is Biowares idea to actually make it pay to win, then it’s going to backfire because it will be the gold sellers who make the money and not Bioware as the gold sellers have a better exchange rate and will only become prolific in a P2W system.

 

It’s more likely an oversight and they’ve not thought it out to the logical conclusion. They probably don’t want it to be pay to win.

[kodrac]

/facepalm

Tier 5 means one tier above tier 4 so it will be BiS, what is so hard to understand about it? In their recent stream the devs mentioned that this gear will be a MM drop and it will make the rest of the content easier.

You are in full denial mode.Hilarious.

 

Do you even SWTOR bro? BiS in this game is the set bonus which crafted gear has never had. Tier 4 gear with set bonus > Tier 5 without set bonus. You always stick with the lower tier if it has a set bonus even if you can craft or buy a higher tier.

[TrixxieTriss]

Do you even SWTOR bro? BiS in this game is the set bonus which crafted gear has never had. Tier 4 gear with set bonus > Tier 5 without set bonus. You always stick with the lower tier if it has a set bonus even if you can craft or buy a higher tier.

 

Yeah, but we dont know if this gear will or will not have a set bonus. It’s a wait and see situation. But it’s easy to speculate that if they want to add another tier and it’s going to make content easier for MM ops, then logically it needs to be BiS or what’s the point?

[giorgo]

Do you even SWTOR bro? BiS in this game is the set bonus which crafted gear has never had. Tier 4 gear with set bonus > Tier 5 without set bonus. You always stick with the lower tier if it has4 a set bonus even if you can craft or buy a higher tier.

All the tier related gear had set bonus so far so there is no reason to assume this tier will be any different than the previous.

Saved for future reference, when tier 5 will be introduced with set bonus btw.

[Aeneas_Falco]

Yeah, but we dont know if this gear will or will not have a set bonus. It’s a wait and see situation. But it’s easy to speculate that if they want to add another tier and it’s going to make content easier for MM ops, then logically it needs to be BiS or what’s the point?

 

I would assume the gear will have the set bonus. Otherwise, why bother?

 

If there is no set bonus it isn't worth fully upgrading from 248 aside from a single piece of armor, weapons, and other gear that doesn't have a set bonus attached, like ear pieces.

[casirabit]

All the tier related gear had set bonus so far so there is no reason to assume this tier will be any different than the previous.

Saved for future reference, when tier 5 will be introduced with set bonus btw.

 

Except that no crafting gear has had set bonuses. I craft and no gear that I can craft has had set bonus which a lot of people want. While you can assume (and you know what they saying about assuming) that it will there has been no crafted gear to date that has a set bonus. Just because it is Tier 5 does not mean set bonus, just means a level up but you can keep on assuming. I prefer to wait and see what they say about it.

[TrixxieTriss]

I would assume the gear will have the set bonus. Otherwise, why bother?

 

If there is no set bonus it isn't worth fully upgrading from 248 aside from a single piece of armor, weapons, and other gear that doesn't have a set bonus attached, like ear pieces.

 

That’s my point. It makes no sense to introduce a higher tiered gear lvl for MM ops that won’t be BiS. Which means it needs to have set bonuses too.

 

I could see them leaving the armor at tier 4 and just adding crafted tier 5 ear, implant and relics.