Way overdue time to get rid of Subscription model and go FTP like other MMO's

[tummiswtor]

In my country sub is cheap enough. It's not problem for me to buy sub, but i would prefer full free to play model... A LOT more new players, high populate planets, fast queue, all these things… maybe they'll get more money from Cartel Market anyway… In current state game still lose players. No expansion soon. Edited August 29, 2018 by tummiswtor

[DzastinBiberi]

Last year when there was an event where devs participated, (cantina event I think) someone asked about the CM passes for wz and OP and devs said that they'll bring them back.

 

Year after, still nothing.

 

Many players are f2p in this game or former subs or ppl who are active but cant afford a sub every month.

 

Without them, we would have even less players in SWTOR.

 

Seeing "all mighty mom's basement" kids in the game insulting ppl who asked for a pvp queue just makes me wanna vomit.

 

Not everyone can afford certain things in life and because of it, they find joy in the things they can afford in a way.

 

I know that DM can be toxic, but doing a queue for someone costs you nothing and by doing it, you bring those ppl joy.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Celise]

This would solve the PvP queue issues. As well as other issues due to the subscriber stuff. Black Desert and other games are doing well with no subscription. Plus the game is almost 8 years old....still $15 a month?....really?

I know there is technically a FTP model in this game, but the way it is set up it actually hurts the game by gimping the Queue numbers in major content.

 

Two words to explain what Bioware thought of F2P'ers on SWTOR: "Galactic Command".

 

Nuff said.

[TheRandomWolf]

I'd rather pay a subscription and get a chance to receive new content rather than spend absurd amounts of cash for just one expansion.

[TUXs]

I'd rather pay a subscription and get a chance to receive new content rather than spend absurd amounts of cash for just one expansion.

I wonder which model is better for income though...

 

Subs are steady income on top of CM sales, which I would assume sustain most games (cash shops)...would CM sales increase if the sub fee was dropped? Would enough people come back to this game, even once or twice a year, and buy something from the CM to offset the loss of subs from them?

 

I think removing the sub fee would certainly bring in players, which we could use, but would they spend anything? Also, would people spending $15 a month now, continue spending that $15 on the CM? I really wonder which model is best...I find it interesting to debate it.

Edited August 30, 2018 by TUXs

[Lunafox]

I'm fine with paying the $15US sub fee, which turns into more like $22 for me. I think it's funny that some people keep saying there is no new content, when we just received a new stronghold, and that pvp is possible on said stronghold as well as a couple of other things. Like anyone else, I wish we got more, and especially more stories, but I think the sub is fine and we do get things from time to time.

[Mournblood]

I don't think it's about $15 being "too much" for a game, it's about $15 being too much for the lack of development this game gets. Many games that cost less get far more in terms of yearly development...and that seems to be the gist of this argument.

 

The misconception that a lot of folks seem to share is that if the game drops subscriptions and goes completely F2P, it's not going to increase the development resources Bioware has available for this game. I think it's a safe assumption that it would actually have the opposite effect. Besides, that decision is made by EA ultimately, and the dye is already cast. In other words, it's common knowledge that they've moved a majority of the Bioware development resources to Anthem, and they won't be coming back.

 

Subscriptions are guaranteed revenue each month. CM sales certainly figure into the picture, but you can't rely on those, and I'm sure they vary greatly from month to month depending on what's for sale. It seems risky at best, and utter folly at worst to remove a reliable revenue stream from a game that is already running on a skeleton crew.

 

@OP: From my perspective, if you want to put the final nail in the coffin that sends this game into maintenance mode, pull subscriptions. That's not what I want to see happen, or most subscribers, for that matter. For those who think $15 per month is too much given the content we have, I think you're being unrealistic in your demands and lack perspective. I mean seriously, have you ventured out from your parent's basement lately? You can easily spend $10 for fast food on a single meal. In today's economy, $15 per month is NOTHING. The subscription revenue is probably barely enough to pay for the rent and utility bills for their studio and data center locations. As others have stated, if you feel $15/month is too much money for what we get, I encourage you to seek your entertainment elsewhere and spare us the millennial entitlement attitude.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Mournblood

[TUXs]

The misconception that a lot of folks seem to share is that if the game drops subscriptions and goes completely F2P, it's not going to increase the development resources Bioware has available for this game. I think it's a safe assumption that it would actually have the opposite effect. Besides, that decision is made by EA ultimately, and the dye is already cast. In other words, it's common knowledge that they've moved a majority of the Bioware development resources to Anthem, and they won't be coming back.

 

Subscriptions are guaranteed revenue each month. CM sales certainly figure into the picture, but you can't rely on those, and I'm sure they vary greatly from month to month depending on what's for sale. It seems risky at best, and utter folly at worst to remove a reliable revenue stream from a game that is already running on a skeleton crew.

I don't have that misconception at all. I think EA gets all the $ and Bioware gets a "budget". No matter how well this game does, the budget for SWTOR is set...and probably negotiated and justified yearly.

 

I agree, it seems risky...but I also know that it works for other games. I would think that, at some point, it would be worth the gamble here. We've had over 3 million people try this game out over the years...that's a helluva lot of interest that they could capture again. The game may not be worth $15 a month for most of those millions, but maybe that new cosmetic armor is worth $5.

[Mournblood]

I don't have that misconception at all. I think EA gets all the $ and Bioware gets a "budget". No matter how well this game does, the budget for SWTOR is set...and probably negotiated and justified yearly.

 

I agree, it seems risky...but I also know that it works for other games. I would think that, at some point, it would be worth the gamble here. We've had over 3 million people try this game out over the years...that's a helluva lot of interest that they could capture again. The game may not be worth $15 a month for most of those millions, but maybe that new cosmetic armor is worth $5.

 

I think you're spot on about where the money goes, and how it's allocated back to Bioware.

 

That said, most "other" games that are full F2P don't have the greediest game publisher on the planet (EA) calling the shots. There is a long and well documented history of what EA does with game studios that are no longer making them money. So to me, given the circumstances here, it's not a risk but a certainty that if the revenue stream for this game dries up, EA will go Kavorkian in a heartbeat and pull the plug. I personally believe that the subscriptions are the only thing keeping this game in the black.

 

On the flip side of this discussion, if they did pull subscriptions, they would necessarily have to increase micro-transactions to offset the loss of revenue. We would basically be nickel and dimed to death, similar to the way the Preferred method currently works. Want that higher mount speed? Pay us $5. Want to equip epics? Pay us $5. In very short order, you've spent $50 just to have and do the things you are able to do as a subscriber. $15 per month is peanuts, but $50 or more, that's where I think the argument about entertainment value would be justified. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't stick around for that.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Mournblood

[TUXs]

I think you're spot on about where the money goes, and how it's allocated back to Bioware.

 

That said, most "other" games that are full F2P don't have the greediest game publisher on the planet (EA) calling the shots. There is a long and well documented history of what EA does with game studios that are no longer making them money. So to me, given the circumstances here, it's not a risk but a certainty that if the revenue stream for this game dries up, EA will pull a Kavorkian in a heartbeat and pull the plug. I personally believe that the subscriptions are the only thing keeping this game in the black.

 

On the flip side of this discussion, if they did pull subscriptions, they would necessarily have to increase micro-transactions to offset the loss of revenue. We would basically be nickel and dimed to death, similar to the way the Preferred method currently works. Want that higher mount speed? Pay us $5. Want to equip epics? Pay us $5. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't stick around for that.

Oh, I agree fully on how EA views games. No doubt in my mind either.

 

Excellent points too! I think we'd see an increase in the price of CM items like armor, weapons, decos, unlocks etc, and maybe the addition of things that we take for granted now - like:

• 30-day Ops pass = 500 CC

• 30-day PvP pass = 500 CC

• 30-day FP pass = 500 CC

• 30-day bundle (all 3) = 1200 CC

 

One way or another, I bet Bioware will ensure we're still paying the $15 a month. Good post! Interesting points to consider.

[Xina_LA]

I think it's funny that some people keep saying there is no new content, when we just received a new stronghold, and that pvp is possible on said stronghold as well as a couple of other things.

They just mean there's no new content of interest for them. Not every player cares about strongholds or PvP. Even some who are have been frustrated by the bugs and can't enjoy it.

 

Personally, I think the subscription model is better and here to stay, I just wish F2P wasn't quite as locked down as it is. When I try to invite friends to join SWTOR, they quickly get frustrated and quit before they see how fun it can be. The bugs in obvious places (list sorting? cut scenes freezing?) and the lack of some basic features gives them a very negative view. If it was just a little big less locked down... say, let them use a small Cargo Bay and buy Speeder 1...

 

What if your first week of F2P had far fewer restrictions? Just long enough to get them enjoying the story...

 

Also any CC unlocks need to match the amount of CC you can buy. Nobody trying out a game wants to buy 1,050 CC for a 451+ CC value item. They don't know if they'll ever use the rest of the CC. It should be 250 CC and 450 CC, or add the right amount of CC as a bundle.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Xina_LA

[rumpol]

No content. Have you even played the game? Used to take a year to level one class, providing you had a life outside the game.

 

A year just lol.

[Stephrebecca]

I dont mind paying the $15 a month, I do begrudge slightly the lack of some content/updates etc but everyone says that.

 

As for the F2P model, that really could use an overhaul which will never happen while things are under EA - only have to look at a lot of the other games they rip off the communities they have (Battlefield etc)

 

Paying the sub each month should give all updates/xpacks etc as it does

F2P should have it that if you dont want to pay a sub you pay for the update (main content update) / xpack at what ever CC price or cash price per char.

 

maybe even change it so the CC costs in store come down so more F2P playerbase can get more things which generates more income - regular sales of things that could be needed by a F2P player being the items would unlock for a char not account

 

Its a model that works really well in LOTRO and has done since about the time of SWTOR first being released

Edited August 31, 2018 by Stephrebecca

[Ardrossan]

I played the first four years as a pref [paid five bucks two months in] without any issue. By the time I subbed, I had about 50 toons spread out on 3-4 servers, all the same legacy.

 

One issue is that things were cheaper back then, proportionately. People would sell server character slots for 200k, instead of 8m. Ditto species unlocks - the most I ever paid was about 2M for the Cathar unlock, using escrows. I also had all the other account unlocks from QoL, except the 3rd crew skill slot, 8 quickslot tabs, and access to guild banks. Escrow was good and bad. Good because I could finally buy fixed-price stuff like the tat and manaan SHs, bad because it encouraged sellers to raise prices.

 

Coming in as a FTP now would be a bit tougher as far as improving QoL goes. However, it would also be easier in other ways - the only reason I paid to be pref in the first place was because xp gain in 2.0 was rather unforgiving. It took awhile to figure out, but if you did 5 wz/week, all sidequests, including the original bonus series on Taris, balmorra, Tat, Alderaan, Hoth, NS, and Voss, and kept general experience boosts on constantly, it was just possible to finish your class story on Corellia at 50. There was little point doing the space missions, and I sucked at FPs; also most heroics were too difficult to solo. Stealther chars often had to do Illum or the Belsavis bonus series to reach 50, max cap. Since 4.0, that's no longer been an issue for anyone. In fact, I generally don't do the vanilla storyline when I'm subbed because the xp gain, even with a White Acute Module, is too fast.

 

It should be easy enough to get to 50 and finish your class stories for the two original character slots you get as FTP. You may not look great [though the adaptive gear vendor on fleet offers a lot of very cheap, stylish options], and you may not have the best gear [though you can easily do your class story in greens], but it's both possible and a lot of fun. If you want more slots, pay five bucks to get them unlocked. Spend it on the preferred gear bundle, [same thing you get from a referral] and you'll get most of those QoL stuff for free on every char, forever. That's a great deal. If you want to do end-game [its merits are debatable, but from a completionist perspective, it's all right], then sub.

 

When I was FTP, I used to read these forums and hate most of the people here who were always whining about FTP ruining their game experience in various ways [i was unaware of R/swtor]. As time passed though, I realized that the people opposing the haters, the ones like OP here, were not actually interested in doing charity for FTP, but in trying to finagle a way to either

a) drop their sub but still get the same benefits they got as a sub,

b) or keep paying their sub but get everything from the CM for free.

 

Once I realized that, I knew why they often asked for such stupid things that a FTP would never ask for. So I lack sympathy for this perspective. The FTP aren't entitled, but these guys certainly are.

 

Notes

1. it's 5 WZ/week, not 3. It's always been 5. Also the server will reset that on Sundays AND Mondays, so it's possible to do a lot more. For some reason they removed the number total in 5.0 so you have to count on your own how many you've done.

 

2. Not having a storage bay sucked as a FTP, but with legacy storage that's not an issue anymore. It costs 5k to get a capital planet SH and if you do the intro quest you'll get that and the mailbox for free.

 

3. I only used a pass once - the one they give you for doing x amount of space missions. It was okay. I never used any of the others. There is supposedly a mythic number of FTPers who used WZ and Ops passes. We never needed WZ passes because you could group with a sub and do as many as they wanted. BW apparently looked into this and found that contrary to what this forum thinks, not many FTP/prefs pvp enough to bother raising the WZ limit. Ops idk. Even as a sub I'm threatened by how difficult and time-consuming they are; it's hard to imagine a FTP doing them with any success. In any event, they certainly weren't buying them off the CM.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Ardrossan

[jimmorrisson]

I am all for opening up the game more for free players.

[Falensawino]

FreeToPlay MMOs have a higher rate of game closures.

 

Name one F2P MMO that's lasted as long as SWTOR has had cartel coins.

[LeelaSeventen]

Star Trek Online, but it does have lifetime membership option. They did just get rid of their monthly sub thing.

 

But they do sell packs in their store. (arc games) ALso the in game store uses zen (aka cartel coins), which you can earn very slowly through grinding and refining dilithium. They just celebrated 8 yrs. They are not as restricted as SWTOR is and unlike swtor bring new content every 4-6 months. (actual content not huttball or fp's that don't really have story content). Though the stuff you buy for zen you can't buy on the exchange (aka the gtn), but the stuff from boxes (uses zen to buy a key in order to open) you can find on the exchange.

 

Then you have LOTRO where you can earn in game tokens to open up areas and they have been around longer. I am kind of new to this one so i don't know how restrictive the f2p is , so far i haven't felt the pain of being f2p

 

Both are f2P mostly and as far as I know still very popular and sucessful.

Edited September 3, 2018 by LeelaSeventen

[Cerixy]

Star Trek Online, but it does have lifetime membership option. They did just get rid of their monthly sub thing.

 

But they do sell packs in their store. (arc games) ALso the in game store uses zen (aka cartel coins), which you can earn very slowly through grinding and refining dilithium. They just celebrated 8 yrs. They are not as restricted as SWTOR is and unlike swtor bring new content every 4-6 months. (actual content not huttball or fp's that don't really have story content). Though the stuff you buy for zen you can't buy on the exchange (aka the gtn), but the stuff from boxes (uses zen to buy a key in order to open) you can find on the exchange.

 

Then you have LOTRO where you can earn in game tokens to open up areas and they have been around longer. I am kind of new to this one so i don't know how restrictive the f2p is , so far i haven't felt the pain of being f2p

 

Both are f2P mostly and as far as I know still very popular and sucessful.

 

Please.... STO is little more than a browser game and its a reputation grinder, this game has more content from vanilla than that game has. Its fine for a drop in for a couple of hours a month which I do, it often reminds me why I prefer this game.... And I have an LTS from the very start.

[LeelaSeventen]

That is your opinion and you have a right to it. Honestly I think the 13 arc of the sto storyline has more content then stuff after the 3 chapters of swtor. I couldn't tell you much about the stuff after the 3 chapters other then, a lot of flashpoints. Though I do like them, but I would love to be able to skip quite a few of those flashpoints. Well there is KOTET and KOTFE but it has been a while since those have been over.

 

Rep grinding is for end game armor (which is not a empty shell) and ship sets. (not a empty shell). How is the rep grinding in STO worse than the rep grinding in swtor. Both are tedious and time consuming so I don't really see a difference.

 

SO i guess you didn't like the Temporal Agent arc, or the Jem'dar arc? And you probably won't like the discovery event they will be doing in a few months.

 

When has there been new story content, I don't mean ops, or fp's . When was the last time there was an actually story content expansion.

Edited September 3, 2018 by LeelaSeventen

[Celise]

Please.... STO is little more than a browser game and its a reputation grinder, this game has more content from vanilla than that game has. Its fine for a drop in for a couple of hours a month which I do, it often reminds me why I prefer this game.... And I have an LTS from the very start.

 

dismiss it if you want, it doesn't change the fact that it has been the direct competitor to SWTOR for years. they practically came up together but SWTOR and STO have had model changed to give F2P'ers an opportunity to play the game. the biggest difference between then within the last two years is that bioware have deliberately gone after the F2P player base with that galactic command, that proved very unpopular within a few months of release.

 

Before GC? F2P'ers could buy passes and get more involved in the content including warzones and operations. After GC hit? F2P became even more restricted and no longer can anyone enjoy playing end game operations or get involved in more than a few warzones or flashpoints at most any more.

 

this is what Bioware thinks of their freeium players, they don't regard them well at all. Bioware are clearly not serious about them either with GC still on this game.

 

there are options but GC needs to be accessible 10 levels sooner than level 70, and f2p'ers should be allowed two operations a week and a few more warzones and flashpoints while at the same time giving f2p'ers access to GC starting at level 60. the other option and the one i like the most is the removal of Ben Irving's white elephant GC system and an advertisement drive to get more players back.

[Ardrossan]

...while at the same time giving f2p'ers access to GC starting at level 60.

 

F2Pers are capped at 50 unless they took advantage of a little known deal to get access to the non-knights expansions on the forum last year. Pref MAY have a higher cap if they were former subs. I find it funny when people on the forum say 'F2P need x', when they clearly know nothing about F2P. It makes their motives for improving F2P QoL rather suspect, imo.

 

There's also the question of why they would want GC in the first place. It's strictly for endgame leveling. If they want it, they can sub. If they don't, they don't have to.

[TUXs]

FreeToPlay MMOs have a higher rate of game closures.

 

Name one F2P MMO that's lasted as long as SWTOR has had cartel coins.

• GW

• DCUO

• STO

• LOTRO

• Rift

• Tera

• The Secret World

• D&D Online

• GW2

 

There are plenty of other examples as well...I'm not sure what your point was exactly?

[Andryah]

Star Trek Online, but it does have lifetime membership option. They did just get rid of their monthly sub thing.

 

But they do sell packs in their store. (arc games) ALso the in game store uses zen (aka cartel coins), which you can earn very slowly through grinding and refining dilithium. They just celebrated 8 yrs. They are not as restricted as SWTOR is and unlike swtor bring new content every 4-6 months. (actual content not huttball or fp's that don't really have story content). Though the stuff you buy for zen you can't buy on the exchange (aka the gtn), but the stuff from boxes (uses zen to buy a key in order to open) you can find on the exchange.

 

Then you have LOTRO where you can earn in game tokens to open up areas and they have been around longer. I am kind of new to this one so i don't know how restrictive the f2p is , so far i haven't felt the pain of being f2p

 

Both are f2P mostly and as far as I know still very popular and sucessful.

 

Almost all MMOs have some form of blended access (not sub only) business model these days. And many of them launched as sub-only and later converted to one form or blended access model. It's a misnomer to call them F2P though because they all have access walls in them between those that still sub and those that do not.... so none of them are actually F2P at full access to content.

 

We do in fact have a good number of MMOs of similar or older age then SWTOR that are running on a blended access model and have been for years. LoTRO actually made the first big move from sub to blended access and it saved the game from being shut down years ago. Seeing the success of it for Turbine back in the day...others have followed suit ..... though each uses a bit different model in terms of what you get for free, what you get via shop currency, and what you have to actually pay a sub to get access to. There is no standard recipe here so comparing studios on their F2P business model is as circular a discussion as any other MMO forum discussion... subject to the various whims and opinions of each player in any discussion.

 

Some MMOs allow you to earn some shop currency through game play. LoTRO began this trend, but anyone that has actually played LoTRO, and is being honest, will admit that the effort for return is bad even in that MMO.

 

You know why the non-subscriber only blended access business models work with MMO audiences? Because players have become more accustomed to a "play and discard" approach to all their gaming, particularly if they are more interested in console gaming or mobile gaming. This style player is a "feaster" who consumes everything they see... and when they see nothing new.. they get bored and move on to some other game. In addition, more players move around from MMO to MMO and they still want to keep their toes in one while focused on another and blended access models largely allow them to do so.

 

The only players that are very strongly in the "go with a sub" feeling about business models are long standing MMO veterans who played MMOs for years under a model where there was only a sub, no in game shops for additional cosmetic or other content unlocks, and strongly invested in one MMO both during content feast and content famine.

 

What is in it for studios to deploy some version of a blended access model is that it insures a revolving door of players coming back around periodically, most likely subscribing for some interval for full access, and then downgrading to non-sub, and more limited access, in between so they can still dabble a bit in any given game. This makes for a somewhat stable ongoing pool of active players for an MMO, while retaining the needed revenue stream through sub+shop-sales to keep the game profitable and moving forward. The Prior subscriber list is the life blood of MMOs these days.. as the hard part is getting someone to play to begin with.. whereas getting them to return periodically for some interval of time is pretty easy through incentives and email promotions even in the absence of new content. The only player this model does not work for is the one that wants subscription level access to everything but does not want, or refuses, to pay a subscription... and will come up with any number of "reasons" why it's unfair that they do not get what they want.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Andryah

[wilkiealbert]

This would solve the PvP queue issues. As well as other issues due to the subscriber stuff. Black Desert and other games are doing well with no subscription. Plus the game is almost 8 years old....still $15 a month?....really?

I know there is technically a FTP model in this game, but the way it is set up it actually hurts the game by gimping the Queue numbers in major content.

I don't know where you got your info but black desert is not free to play I have been on there game I got it free for 7 days only so id chick you info

[Falensawino]

 

Then you have LOTRO where you can earn in game tokens to open up areas and they have been around longer. I am kind of new to this one so i don't know how restrictive the f2p is , so far i haven't felt the pain of being f2p

Some MMOs allow you to earn some shop currency through game play. LoTRO began this trend, but anyone that has actually played LoTRO, and is being honest, will admit that the effort for return is bad even in that MMO.

 

 

LOTRO might be phased out soon

 

 

The publisher that owns Warframe announced that a F2P Lord of the Rings MMORPG is in the works.

 

www.game-debate.com/news/25701/warframe-owner-leyou-announces-f2p-the-lord-of-the-rings-mmorpg-is-in-development

 

Athlon Games has announced a partnership with Middle-Earth Enterprises for the rights to develop and publish a free-to-play massively multiplayer online game based on The Lord of the Rings franchise.

 

Middle-Earth Enterprises is the rights holder to J.R.R. Tolkien’s two most famous literary works - The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Athlon Games, meanwhile, is a subsidiary of Leyou, a rapidly expanding Hong Kong-based publisher which owns Digital Extremes (Warframe), Splash Damage (Dirty Bomb) and the aforementioned Athlon Games.

 

Athlon Games was only founded as a publisher in May 2018 so it doesn’t have anything to its name yet, but the link to Warframe developer Digital Extremes is certainly encouraging. Warframe is a fantastic example of F2P done right and this could bode well for The Lord of the Rings MMO.

 

“Athlon Games combines its expertise in free-to-play console and PC games with Western development to create AAA cooperative console and PC experiences that gamers will want to play for many years,” writes Leyou chairman Xu Yiran.

 

“With our technical know-how and expertise in free-to-play game development and publishing, which has seen success with the Group’s other game titles such as Warframe, the Board believes that the development and publishing of this new title based on The Lord of the Rings will help further the Group’s goal of creating top quality console and PC games that have global appeal and expand the Group’s footprint in the West.”

 

The other Lord of the Rings Online MMORPG is still creaking on after all these years as well, although no further content will be released. At one point it was the third largest MMORPG in the world though, so there’s definitely an audience for a LOTR-themed F2P MMO.

 

Considering the early nature of this announcement, don't expect to hear anything more about this Lord of the Rings game for quite a while.

 

I expect more games like Black Desert Online than seeing a new WoW clone anytime soon.

Hopefully the new LOTRO online will do something unique.

 

Also Amazon budgeted 1 billion dollars to produce 5 seasons of a Lord of the Ring TV show

Edited September 4, 2018 by Falensawino