Too many Stuns, Rolls, Roots and overall CCs

[Seterade]

ok, just tested it, and this is what happens, basically you MD, then scream but the person you md'd through is mezzed

 

I'll pm the SS

Edited April 26, 2018 by Seterade

[Schoock]

About the Operative roll, here's a shortie:

You can see when Veiled Strike goes off the immunity buff is still up.

 

As for your screenshot, I'm not sure what so see on it. I see the Sin is mezzed, but I fail to see how it proves you mezzed him during, and not after Mad Dash.

[Seterade]

Ah, crud. I distargeted when the screenshot went off.

 

basically I didnt move from madash finish and Im more than 8 meters from him.

 

Im assuming mezz is 8 meters, it doesnt specify but I've never heard of a wider player att

[Kazz_Devlin]

they are the weeble class (they wobble but don't fall down) they can't do crap loads of damage they just harass you till all your DCD's are used mean while all your dps just gets mitigated. Being able to roam all over the map healing as they go able to stop peeps from capping nodes until a snare or root actually manages to stop them. Now their damage isn't what outa balance it's the ability to kite and self heal in the hands of someone who knows this class they become an i win class through harassment and attrition.

[TrixxieTriss]

there are only 2 thing about ops that are better than anything else, and both are exclusive to concealment.

 

1) they have a hitbox abusable root on a 15 sec cd, acting as a half stun. sure you could save your purge for it, but your already chasing point number 2)

 

2) resist roll. just starting with the fact that with no utility help it is a full 10 seconds shorter than any movement increase in the game. second, it full resists everything

 

This is my pet peeve about Operatives ^^

 

3) Can stay behind you and you are unable to hit them back while they root you constantly.

 

Honestly, I could live with one and two if they got rid of three. This ability IMO is the most unfair one in the whole game. But when you add all 3 of those together, it compounds it even more.

 

I know many disagree and that’s fine. This is just how I feel about it, the same way as people have their dislikes about other classes.

[Rafiknoll]

This is my pet peeve about Operatives ^^

 

3) Can stay behind you and you are unable to hit them back while they root you constantly.

 

Honestly, I could live with one and two if they got rid of three. This ability IMO is the most unfair one in the whole game. But when you add all 3 of those together, it compounds it even more.

 

I know many disagree and that’s fine. This is just how I feel about it, the same way as people have their dislikes about other classes.

 

TBH it is not THAT overpowered. While rooted and being bursted in the back you have the following options:

1. root-break away (juggs mostly can't).

2. 360 degrees push (for snipers or mercs).

3. DCD to mitigate damage taken.

4. AoE mezz (that juggs actually have).

5. Spam the cooldown-less AoEs on yourself (unless you are a jugg, mara or an operative, in which case, after you used your cooldowned one, your normal AoE is a useless frontal).

 

The above are sorted by priority, with number 5 being close to useless and number 1 being the most costless approach, as root-breakers are specifically designed to break roots and you mostly have no better use for them, while you might actually want your push, mezz or DCD later.

 

I don't disagree that ops can be annoying when played right, but assasins, mercs and sorc can be just as annoying. I dare say that sorcs are far more annoying in case you are melee and they have the flashing mezzing shield...

[TrixxieTriss]

TBH it is not THAT overpowered. While rooted and being bursted in the back you have the following options:

1. root-break away (juggs mostly can't).

2. 360 degrees push (for snipers or mercs).

3. DCD to mitigate damage taken.

4. AoE mezz (that juggs actually have).

5. Spam the cooldown-less AoEs on yourself (unless you are a jugg, mara or an operative, in which case, after you used your cooldowned one, your normal AoE is a useless frontal).

 

The above are sorted by priority, with number 5 being close to useless and number 1 being the most costless approach, as root-breakers are specifically designed to break roots and you mostly have no better use for them, while you might actually want your push, mezz or DCD later.

 

I don't disagree that ops can be annoying when played right, but assasins, mercs and sorc can be just as annoying. I dare say that sorcs are far more annoying in case you are melee and they have the flashing mezzing shield...

 

I never said it was overpowered. I said it was the most unfair ability in the game.

 

1. Jugg player

2. Not sniper or Merc

3. DCD are situational. A good Operative will wait till you’ve used them

4. AOE mez is one ability, which the op just breaks and keeps going

5. Spam what AOE?

 

Basically ops can have their way with Juggs and there isn’t much you can do if your DCDs are down. You can’t even cause any damage to them while they are behind you. Mercs, Snipers, Sins, Sorc, PTs and Mara’s can get away or attack them back. I know because I do it on those other classes because they have so many more ways to break away or damage back.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I do have things I do against Operatives to mitigate this disadvantage, but they still vex me on my Jugg. It doesn’t help that I often have abilities that don’t active or go off late due to lag. I also find all stealths, wether I’m playing one or against one, cause some weird lag affects (activation lag) when the ping is above 280ms. It doesn’t happen with any other type of class, so I can only assume it’s got something to do with their built in stealth (I’ve no idea why or how, I can only see the affect).

Edited April 29, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Elusive_Thing]

IBasically ops can have their way with Juggs and there isn’t much you can do if your DCDs are down.

Out of DCDs and taking damage? Outrageous.

[Rafiknoll]

I never said it was overpowered. I said it was the most unfair ability in the game.

 

1. Jugg player

2. Not sniper or Merc

3. DCD are situational. A good Operative will wait till you’ve used them

4. AOE mez is one ability, which the op just breaks and keeps going

5. Spam what AOE?

 

Basically ops can have their way with Juggs and there isn’t much you can do if your DCDs are down. You can’t even cause any damage to them while they are behind you. Mercs, Snipers, Sins, Sorc, PTs and Mara’s can get away or attack them back. I know because I do it on those other classes because they have so many more ways to break away or damage back.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I do have things I do against Operatives to mitigate this disadvantage, but they still vex me on my Jugg. It doesn’t help that I often have abilities that don’t active or go off late due to lag. I also find all stealths, wether I’m playing one or against one, cause some weird lag affects (activation lag) when the ping is above 280ms. It doesn’t happen with any other type of class, so I can only assume it’s got something to do with their built in stealth (I’ve no idea why or how, I can only see the affect).

 

True, juggs have it worst in there. TBH, originally, my post went like that "While rooted and being bursted in the back, unless you are a jugg, you have the following options:", but I edited it out before people start complaining that their class has it worse, or even better, call juggs OP (instead I said it in specific points around my list so it can't be argued about.

Yup, if both the reflect and the mezz are out, the jugg is quite screwed with this low-cded root. Juggs need their cyclone slash edited to hit 360 degress at the very least, that would be a good start (and if they are too lazy to create an animation, they can use the one from mad dash, or Dread Master Raptus).

[TrixxieTriss]

True, juggs have it worst in there. TBH, originally, my post went like that "While rooted and being bursted in the back, unless you are a jugg, you have the following options:", but I edited it out before people start complaining that their class has it worse, or even better, call juggs OP (instead I said it in specific points around my list so it can't be argued about.

Yup, if both the reflect and the mezz are out, the jugg is quite screwed with this low-cded root. Juggs need their cyclone slash edited to hit 360 degress at the very least, that would be a good start (and if they are too lazy to create an animation, they can use the one from mad dash, or Dread Master Raptus).

 

Or they could just make the “window” smaller for ops to stay in. This wouldn’t effect the really great ops, which wouldn’t matter because you would probably lose to them anyway, Bioware should never have increased that window in the first place.

[TrixxieTriss]

Out of DCDs and taking damage? Outrageous.

 

You know an OP can kite and stay out of range and wait for a Jugg to use their DCDs. It’s an unfair fight against most classes and OPs have always had the advantage “if” they know how to play the class. But Juggs have it the worst against Operatives because of less ways to mitigate the situation and low mobility vs the Operatives built in immunities while trying to close the distance or defend against their stabby, stabby.

Against any other class, you can fight you way out of the situation if your DCDs are blown. But not against an OP because you can’t even hit them.

[frosttj]

You know an OP can kite and stay out of range and wait for a Jugg to use their DCDs. It’s an unfair fight against most classes and OPs have always had the advantage “if” they know how to play the class. But Juggs have it the worst against Operatives because of less ways to mitigate the situation and low mobility vs the Operatives built in immunities while trying to close the distance or defend against their stabby, stabby.

Against any other class, you can fight you way out of the situation if your DCDs are blown. But not against an OP because you can’t even hit them.

 

It's always fun reading these. Operatives, who are clearly the long time favorite to win any 1v1s, facerolls someone, and they take it personal, cry nerf and unfair. They could take away all the things people complain about. Then they have to redesign the entire class to be functional. Because no operatives are putting up 5k dps while taking damage on a consistent basis.

 

I read these threads as ie: make every class the same so it's fair across the board. Which...sounds like a great way to take any flavor out of an already low pop game. No thank you. Please keep class integrity, and give me more pissed off sith role players who want moar power, and are leveraging forum crying to get it.

[Lhancelot]

I hate ops and their root-from-behind too.

 

That being said, the number of players that can maximize the deadliness of the ops class in game is so few their supreme survivability and very nasty killing ability is usually not utilized. I chalk it up as a need-skills-class tbh.

 

I run into one of these ops maybe once a day if unlucky and usually can go days in WZs never having to face one of those shut-you-down-and-kill-you operatives/scoundrels.

 

I'd just say leave them alone they are fine as is. Now if the class was as easy as a merc, sniper, sorc (all the classes I enjoy most right now btw rofl) I would say yes they need to be touched down a bit.

 

To elaborate, I feel like the ops class requires you to stay on target, use rolls appropriately, know when to escape, properly line up their bursts to really do substantial damage whereas many of the classes I do best on are very forgiving with any mistakes in their rotations or DCD uses. I think for those reasons many people are average or worse on the ops class.

[Romeugues]

Am I the only one who enjoys getting rooted from behind? You guys are a bunch of prudes!

[Gyronamics]

Scoundrels since launch have had obnoxious controls, it's been part of the class forever. The anti-turn root used to be a knockdown with messed up animation that had people taking more damage than they needed to.

 

It was probably in the mind of the class designer to add flavour in the form of target frustration by adding rotational CC which is as good as a stun for most purposes.

 

Mind you back when it WAS a knockdown you could pop a knockback and the knockback would properly disengage you. Everyone's had mobility upgrades since then.

 

I don't believe CC has increased all that much since the start. If anything CC is less punishing than it used to be because increased mobility and defences.

[septru]

It's always fun reading these. Operatives, who are clearly the long time favorite to win any 1v1s, facerolls someone, and they take it personal, cry nerf and unfair. They could take away all the things people complain about. Then they have to redesign the entire class to be functional. Because no operatives are putting up 5k dps while taking damage on a consistent basis.

 

I read these threads as ie: make every class the same so it's fair across the board. Which...sounds like a great way to take any flavor out of an already low pop game. No thank you. Please keep class integrity, and give me more pissed off sith role players who want moar power, and are leveraging forum crying to get it.

 

This right here. All you nerf operative QQers are looking at it from a 1v1 perspective. That's stupid and your own fault. Don't 1v1 an operative. How about that? All operatives have going is the 1v1s. If you put yourself into a 1v1 with an operative you better have CDs and use them correctly because 90% of the time the operative will win the 1v1.

[Seterade]

This right here. All you nerf operative QQers are looking at it from a 1v1 perspective. That's stupid and your own fault. Don't 1v1 an operative. How about that? All operatives have going is the 1v1s. If you put yourself into a 1v1 with an operative you better have CDs and use them correctly because 90% of the time the operative will win the 1v1.

no.

 

I guarantee that a full 4 man top skilled granked team of ops only would beat any comp in this entire game (no ops allowed on the other team)

 

Balance should be decided based on a simple factor: 1) If the top player of any advanced class in all of swtor can 1v1 beat every single other top player of every advanced class, and 2) if 4 of that advanced class controlled by the best players in it can beat any other 4 advanced classes played by again the top of the skill level, the class needs a rebalance.

 

Believing that any class/advanced deserves to be better than all 17 other dps options goes against the very concept of a game providing 17 different dps specs. This kind of braindead reasoning is why fotm is a thing. Because you will only play a class that outperforms. You can't win on a regular normal class, you play only "viable" specs, cuz lets face it... this 13+ game is really hard mang

[frosttj]

no.

 

I guarantee that a full 4 man top skilled granked team of ops only would beat any comp in this entire game (no ops allowed on the other team)

 

Balance should be decided based on a simple factor: 1) If the top player of any advanced class in all of swtor can 1v1 beat every single other top player of every advanced class, and 2) if 4 of that advanced class controlled by the best players in it can beat any other 4 advanced classes played by again the top of the skill level, the class needs a rebalance.

 

Believing that any class/advanced deserves to be better than all 17 other dps options goes against the very concept of a game providing 17 different dps specs. This kind of braindead reasoning is why fotm is a thing. Because you will only play a class that outperforms. You can't win on a regular normal class, you play only "viable" specs, cuz lets face it... this 13+ game is really hard mang

 

lmao...let me see any shred of proof a 4 man operative team is stomping the ground in granked please. also...no to everything else you said. 100% crap response, I award you zero points and may god have mercy on your soul.

[Lundorff]

no.

 

I guarantee that a full 4 man top skilled granked team of ops only would beat any comp in this entire game (no ops allowed on the other team)

 

Balance should be decided based on a simple factor: 1) If the top player of any advanced class in all of swtor can 1v1 beat every single other top player of every advanced class, and 2) if 4 of that advanced class controlled by the best players in it can beat any other 4 advanced classes played by again the top of the skill level, the class needs a rebalance.

 

Believing that any class/advanced deserves to be better than all 17 other dps options goes against the very concept of a game providing 17 different dps specs. This kind of braindead reasoning is why fotm is a thing. Because you will only play a class that outperforms. You can't win on a regular normal class, you play only "viable" specs, cuz lets face it... this 13+ game is really hard mang

 

Top 50 for group ranked consists of 2 operatives and 0 scoundrels. If you were even mildly correct, most groups would go full operative.

[Rafiknoll]

Operatives have one of the lowest AoE capabilities, especially concealment (lethality was never the matter, it can't immobilize you). They could break rotation and spend a TA to place a weak ticking AoE or spam their weak knives, but it is far less effective even compared to a lacerating deception sin (and at least the sin can doesn't throw away his force regen speed if he chooses to do so). When Regardless of the number of enemies, the operative is better off single-targeting, and hoping that the many pushes, stuns and damaging AoEs don't distrupt him too much. In addition, the operative's most hated defensive ability - the roll, is not very effective versus multiple targets. You can time it well versus one heatseeker missle or one ambush, but what do you do when you can't watch all your enemies at once? Also, a rooted operative is quite helpless, and a stunned operative has no cd to activate while stunned to save his skin. A single player can't stun the operative enough to gain the upper hand there, but more than 1 will not have a hard time at all.

 

Go ahead, grab some friends and go ranked with 4 operatives. Any AoE oriented group will easily kill you, and actually, 2 maras versus 2 operatives is also quite in favor of the maras if they play it right and stun in turns (even though admittedly, 1v1 is an operative win). Even 2 juggs versus 2 operatives have a nice chance if the juggs understand how effective it is for DPS specs to taunt on CD and are not stupid enough to use guard.

 

In short, if you plan to go on a 1v1 tourment, pick an operative. If you want arenas, pick something that can handle being focused without losing most of its DPS for rolling on CD and still taking damage while CD is up, and maybe play something less, and something that can put pressure on more than 1 target at a time to stress the healers. Operatives can beat inexpirienced groups by starting on a guy and downing him, but if they fail in doing so, they are quite doomed

[Seterade]

you arent considering that all 4 ops can double probe one another, all four have an aoe cc, all four can stealth out and reset the fight and finally the operative hlr has the best aoe hling in this game. while not having a tank will hinder a little bit I would maintain that 3 con ops and an op hlr could beat any cleave comp, specialy with the new skank nerf

[Rafiknoll]

you arent considering that all 4 ops can double probe one another, all four have an aoe cc, all four can stealth out and reset the fight and finally the operative hlr has the best aoe hling in this game. while not having a tank will hinder a little bit I would maintain that 3 con ops and an op hlr could beat any cleave comp, specialy with the new skank nerf

 

If they waste time probing more than themselves they will never kill if the enemy healer is any good, and if they don't sync the stealth together, they won't gain more than a single operative when they stealth out. If they do, then you could also say that they can do the moronic acid play (and sins can do that better, due to their shorter combat-stealth CD and better dcdes for acid playing. If there is an unbeatable combination, it might be 4 op healers who stack up and just wait till the acid, then trigger all CDes and attempt to win acid...

 

But by all means, operative players are welcome to try making full concealment groups and see what happens. I am not holding my breath, especially not when they encounter 2 engineering snipers with a tank.

 

In fact, the weakness of the operative might be the... sorcerer. With the full force rotation (ignoring evasion, unless reflective), emersion force speed for every root + phase walks, ability to pull each other and cleanse each other, a burstier offhealing (and since lighting rotation doesn't consume force, they have a lot to spare for some dark heals) and rooting pushes, a good sorc can kite an operative almost infinitely while the operative has only the shield and the rolls to save himself from free attacks, and the rolls would be hard to time well with most abilities being instant.

 

If 4 operatives become a thing, they will be countered by triple sorcs + tank, which will be countered by maras, which will be (according to what you say, I still doubt it) will be countered by operatives. Then ranked will become rock-paper-scissors...

[Coloneli]

Opers are mediocre in team ranked.

 

Also when In doubt nerf operatives.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Coloneli

[Hatstandard]

no.

 

I guarantee that a full 4 man top skilled granked team of ops only would beat any comp in this entire game (no ops allowed on the other team)

 

Balance should be decided based on a simple factor: 1) If the top player of any advanced class in all of swtor can 1v1 beat every single other top player of every advanced class, and 2) if 4 of that advanced class controlled by the best players in it can beat any other 4 advanced classes played by again the top of the skill level, the class needs a rebalance.

 

Believing that any class/advanced deserves to be better than all 17 other dps options goes against the very concept of a game providing 17 different dps specs. This kind of braindead reasoning is why fotm is a thing. Because you will only play a class that outperforms. You can't win on a regular normal class, you play only "viable" specs, cuz lets face it... this 13+ game is really hard mang

 

This troll bait was compelling enough for me to login. Why do you guarantee a full team of ops are so good? How do you guarantee it? Do you frequently guarantee stuff that are so obviously opposite to reality? What is your thought process for making guarantees without any evidence?

 

Basically, I'm not so interested in your position but how your mind works.

[Seterade]

Because Ive seen what 3 con ops (all of them were excellent at con op) on 1 team in solo ranked literally tear a team of 2 maras, a merc, and an assassin apart. and no. it wasnt some bronze/blue elo matchup

 

and it wasnt a one time thing, over and over solo teams with 2 or more ops pulled any setup apart

Edited May 7, 2018 by Seterade