DarkTergon Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 The thing is... Arcann had a moral center. Not a good moral center but it was there. He didn't kill people, because he... "Hates odd numbers" or "Didn't like his answer." Arcann killed when he believed it achieved something. I'm not saying he was right, he wasn't. But there is a difference in ideologies here. He stopped Vaylin from killing Senya before his healing on Voss. It wasn't out of sentiment he was still consumed by hate. Senya's death didn't achieve anything. I personally believe Valkorian's conditioning destroyed the part of Vaylin's brain that controls moral decisions. IF she did body-snatch Syl then maybe she can regain a moral center. Well put ^^^ this is why it won't work, they'll have to change the story to give 'old' vaylin a eureka moment that allows her to find some sort of moral centre.. If the new story is heading as people are predicting, maybe the reawakening of her will be her eureka moment, and she can be redeemed in a future arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 IF she did body-snatch Syl then maybe she can regain a moral center. Being with Satele and the other Jedi I think that's a possibility. I hope they give her 'Syl' a unique model too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshaga Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 The thing is... Arcann had a moral center. Not a good moral center but it was there. He didn't kill people, because he... "Hates odd numbers" or "Didn't like his answer." Arcann killed when he believed it achieved something. I'm not saying he was right, he wasn't. But there is a difference in ideologies here. He stopped Vaylin from killing Senya before his healing on Voss. It wasn't out of sentiment he was still consumed by hate. Senya's death didn't achieve anything. I personally believe Valkorian's conditioning destroyed the part of Vaylin's brain that controls moral decisions. IF she did body-snatch Syl then maybe she can regain a moral center. Mostly agree except for the green part. Considering how he talks about her, it seems like despite still being consumed by hate, he seems like he still somehow care about her. He never showed any kind of hatred towards his mother, mostly regrets that she left them behind and they chose not to go with her (well that how i interpret it at least), which is probably partially why he was able to listen to her and then chose to save her. Well put ^^^ this is why it won't work, they'll have to change the story to give 'old' vaylin a eureka moment that allows her to find some sort of moral centre.. If the new story is heading as people are predicting, maybe the reawakening of her will be her eureka moment, and she can be redeemed in a future arc. Dunno if it applies to all answers if Senya's still alive, but at least if you tell her you wish you could've find a way to stop her without killing her, she then listen to Senya appologies, and it seemed to have moved her, at least slightly. This could be a first step towards her "eureka" moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banimoka Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Being with Satele and the other Jedi I think that's a possibility. I hope they give her 'Syl' a unique model too. this is how i would do it : - you are asked to go look for Syl because she is missing and is not answering the holocom - searching for her you end up on the Nathema hidden base , where you meet ... Senya & Arcann - searching deeper into the facility you meet Vaylin that in the meantime managed to recover her original body using the force ritual of Essence Transfer - during the fight you get separated and Senya + Vaylin land on one side & Player + Arcann on the other side , between them a transparent barrier ( like in the movies , so u get to see what 's on the other side ) - Vaylin manages to strike Senya down ... accomplishing her goal to kill her mother - after a few moments Vaylin realizes what she has done and regretting it drops her lightsaber and rushes back and heals Senya - in the meantime Player + Arcann arrive at the scene , and Arcann helps Vaylin heal Senya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlBuzzard Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 The issue with that is, she doesn't want to be redeemed, she hasn't had her 'eureka' moment that opens her eyes to the possibility. Simply trying to reason with her, won't work. For her to be redeemed, they'll have to write/change something in the earlier chapters that makes her think, and festers in her mind, till she confronts it. It was how they did it for Arcann, it would have to be the same for her This is kind of what is in the back of my mind. Vaylin has had as much of an opportunity as anyone for redemption. She has repeatedly made it clear that she does not want or NEED it. IMO the only conclusion that (at this time) she is who she is (now). At any rate. It is unlikely that we will come to a sound conclusion. The one thing that I have noticed in the SW saga ... the dead don't remain dead. And no-one's mind set is beyond changing. Hopefully the final chapter has been written. If it has not ... then we'll just have to deal with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshaga Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 - searching deeper into the facility you meet Vaylin that in the meantime managed to recover her original body using the force ritual of Essence Transfer She's been dead for nearly 4 years by now, i don't really want to know what her original body would look like, and idk about you, but i'd definitely have burned that body, just to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 She's been dead for nearly 4 years by now, i don't really want to know what her original body would look like, and idk about you, but i'd definitely have burned that body, just to be sure. If Tenebrea's body can survive for #### years I think 4 is nothing Just say it's in the morgue, carbonite or a bacta tank and you're good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkTergon Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 If Tenebrea's body can survive for #### years I think 4 is nothing Just say it's in the morgue, carbonite or a bacta tank and you're good. He hid his body , probably shortly after it died, or maybe had servants do it as he died. Then probably used some ritual to preserve it. Poor V never got a chance. Unless they rewrite her story, I think the redhead is the only way she'll be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackvinils Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) He hid his body , probably shortly after it died, or maybe had servants do it as he died. Then probably used some ritual to preserve it. Poor V never got a chance. Unless they rewrite her story, I think the redhead is the only way she'll be back. Her return in a redhead body is a more optimal and simple option than a rewriting of the entire past expansion. In addition, i think, devs just can add customization of her appearance - FE / ET variations of the appearance to vendors on Fleet.:rak_03: #VaylinCompanion Edited December 19, 2020 by Blackvinils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) Her return in a redhead body is a more optimal and simple option than a rewriting of the entire past expansion. In addition, i think, devs just can add customization of her appearance - FE / ET variations of the appearance to vendors on Fleet.:rak_03: #VaylinCompanion Assuming Syl is Vaylin and the powers to be decide to make her a companion that'll probably be the most likely scenario. He hid his body , probably shortly after it died, or maybe had servants do it as he died. Then probably used some ritual to preserve it. Poor V never got a chance. Unless they rewrite her story, I think the redhead is the only way she'll be back. Lol we could say the Hutt Scientist guy wanted to study the force so he's got her body in his private lab. Edited December 19, 2020 by Paulsutherland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted December 19, 2020 Author Share Posted December 19, 2020 Lol we could say the Hutt Scientist guy wanted to study the force so he's got her body in his private lab. You think Dr. O. is that crazy? Lokin I could see it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 You think Dr. O. is that crazy? Lokin I could see it... Well he wanted to watch 'Back Up Khem Val' eat someone. I think I could bribe him to do my bidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkTergon Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) You think Dr. O. is that crazy? Lokin I could see it... Well he wanted to watch 'Back Up Khem Val' eat someone. I think I could bribe him to do my bidding. lokin & Doc Ogg together :eek: now there's a crazy match up.... Edited December 19, 2020 by DarkTergon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshaga Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 If Tenebrea's body can survive for #### years I think 4 is nothing Just say it's in the morgue, carbonite or a bacta tank and you're good. Tenebrae had a plan for his original body and probably used some sort of rituals to make sure his body would not die as he needed it as an anchor to go back to when one of his Voices died. Vaylin certainly didn't have the knowledge nor the time to prepare that kind of thing before she died. Besides, why would any Outlander in their right mind want to preserve her dead body ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banimoka Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) Besides, why would any Outlander in their right mind want to preserve her dead body ? - there are people ... in their right mind or not , that would do it ... like " Senya " - also Sana-Rae sees things , maybe one thing that she saw was , Vaylin helping you against Valkorion , why not preserve her body in case " Valkorion dies " and Vaylin's force manifestation is released Edited December 19, 2020 by banimoka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 lokin & Doc Ogg together :eek: now there's a crazy match up.... Think of all the science! Tenebrae had a plan for his original body and probably used some sort of rituals to make sure his body would not die as he needed it as an anchor to go back to when one of his Voices died. Vaylin certainly didn't have the knowledge nor the time to prepare that kind of thing before she died. Besides, why would any Outlander in their right mind want to preserve her dead body ? I don't know lol Just slap on some space magic and you're good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshaga Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) - there are people ... in their right mind or not , that would do it ... like " Senya " - also Sana-Rae sees things , maybe one thing that she saw was , Vaylin helping you against Valkorion , why not preserve her body in case " Valkorion dies " and Vaylin's force manifestation is released Senya and Arcann would most probably give her a proper funeral, but keeping her body so that it'd stay exactly how it was when she died, i doubt it, they'd have no reason to do that, especially since no one knew Vaylin was still around after Valkorion was defeated, and she didn't have to knowledge to transfer her spirit into another body as it really seemed like she figured it out during EoO. I've said it before, i've always been for people who wanted her a companion being given that option, but i didn't want her back in the story. Now depending on how they do it, i may change my mind (that is if they really show something new from her, because if she stays the same, that'd be a waste of time to me), and tbh giving her a new body and a new start, especially after she was finally able to listen to her mother, may be the best way they can do it. I just hope they give "Syl" a unique character model though, because she seemed to look an awfull lot like Kira. Edited December 20, 2020 by Goreshaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) I just hope they give "Syl" a unique character model though, because she seemed to look an awfull lot like Kira. What sort of model do you think she would get? Maybe something like Mara Jade? Maybe they'll taunt us again with another hair under the hood model. Edited December 20, 2020 by Paulsutherland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackvinils Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) What sort of model do you think she would get? Maybe something like Mara Jade? Maybe they'll taunt us again with another hair under the hood model. Well, they definitely have experience in creating unique models, so...:rolleyes: #VaylinCompanion Edited December 20, 2020 by Blackvinils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RameiArashi Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 (edited) To quote Vaylin during Echoes of Oblivion (who is quoting Valkorian) 'You assume limits to my power, there are none" So maybe she doesn't need her original body because she isn't copying Tenebrae exactly. Tenebrae didn't take over a dead human to become Vitiate or Valkorian. Yeah he did control dead people in that one mission but that wasn't his normal mode of operation. They were temporary tools not long term hosts. Senya saw Valkorian as warm and caring one minute but cold and indifferent the next because sometimes Vitiate was busy elsewhere and the real Valkorian regained control of himself. The proof that they are living beings he needs for long term hosts is in the Emperor's Voice the Sith Warrior kills to free his master. If Vaylin took possession of a dead woman in order to give herself another life, that's a new trick. That's not how Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorian operated. When Valkorian is killed Tenebrae's spirit does not jump into Darth Marr's corpse he jumps into the player character's living mind. Edited December 20, 2020 by RameiArashi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banimoka Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) What sort of model do you think she would get? Maybe they'll taunt us again with another hair under the hood model. - the magic is kind of taken away if they stick her in a different model - at the very least there should be " cartel market customizations " a) classic look - the ones she gets in Chapter I + b) remodeled Long Blonde Hair + Blue eyes ( like in the trailer ) Edited December 21, 2020 by banimoka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Snip. I'm more interested by Vaylin's quote about us 'dragging' her into the conflict. I think she's been rattling inside our minds since the ending of KOTET when Valkorion pulled her spirit into the fight. So with Vaylin being in our minds at least I have a good reason for all the times I've made bad sales and purchases at the GTN. Syl was in the mind meld so I'm going to assume she made it in with the others but was killed by Tenebrae, Valkorion and or Vitiate shortly before the player arrived. So while mentally Syl was dead her body is in a near enough perfect condition for Vaylin to hop into and heal. I'm also going to assume with Syl being dead before Vaylin took over she'll have none of Syl's memories and no idea how to act like Syl would. - the magic is kind of taken away if they stick her in a different model - at the very least there should be " cartel market customizations " a) classic look - the ones she gets in Chapter I + b) remodeled Long Blonde Hair + Blue eyes ( like in the trailer ) I disagree. A new model would spice things up. If they decide to turn her into a companion then they could always throw her other appearances into the vendors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RameiArashi Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 (edited) I'm more interested by Vaylin's quote about us 'dragging' her into the conflict. I think she's been rattling inside our minds since the ending of KOTET when Valkorion pulled her spirit into the fight. So with Vaylin being in our minds at least I have a good reason for all the times I've made bad sales and purchases at the GTN. I think all the dead force users who appear in Echoes are in your mind. If you ask a certain dead sith how he knows so much he says he knows only what you know/. If you killed all of Valkorian's family you can asked dead Senya how she is there and she will say you should ask yourself that. Koth and Theron are not force users so if you killed them they don't show up. Edited December 24, 2020 by RameiArashi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 I think all the dead force users who appear in Echoes are in your mind. If you ask a certain dead sith how he knows so much he says he knows only what you know/. If you killed all of Valkorian's family you can asked dead Senya how she is there and she will say you should ask yourself that. Koth and Theron are not force users so if you killed them they don't show up. Marr was hanging out with Satele so he could have been active in that mind battle long before we showed up. For Senya, Arcann and Vaylin you can argue were in our mind at the end of Kotet and just tagged along. (Something Vaylin also implies on a LS play through) I've no idea how Thexan got there though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RameiArashi Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 (edited) Accept Marr say's he only knows what you know, not what the former head of the jedi order knows. You took him there just as you took Vaylin. As for Thexan, maybe our character is just sentimental and we imagine the twins being reunited. Edited December 25, 2020 by RameiArashi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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