gearing up for endgame is disgusting

[xordevoreaux]

Tux yes that had something to do with it, however they specifically said I'm Min/maxed in so short of a time, I have no reason to stay to do even NiM content anymore. It may not have been 100% of the reason they left but it sure was a key reason. To be fair, not many people leave a game for only 1 reason.

 

Don't conflate the process of gearing with the process of joining in with your friends / guildies in an operation to defeat a boss. But that is what you have done. gearing < > doing an op.

 

You can get gear in an op, but getting gear IS NOT the op. Your premise is false. It's not the gearing that drove them away. It was the lack of ops content.

[TUXs]

From My experience however I did see many of my guildies leave in 4.0 because they got geared in full 224's in only a couple of weeks, and had nothing else to do. This caused them to get bored and leave.

So to you, and them, getting new gear is the ultimate in "new fun" huh? They must be loving RNG gearing then right? It has nothing to do with no new content, and everything to do with gearing being too easy that they quit...right? RNG gearing must be the greatest thing ever for these imaginary guys...the gift that keeps on giving.

[Toraak]

Don't conflate the process of gearing with the process of joining in with your friends / guildies in an operation to defeat a boss. But that is what you have done. gearing < > doing an op.

 

You can get gear in an op, but getting gear IS NOT the op. Your premise is false. It's not the gearing that drove them away. It was the lack of ops content.

 

I realize this I still do HM Ops twice a week, even tho I'm fully min/maxed. If I didn't agree with the fact I enjoy the people I raided with, i'd have left long ago.

[Lionflash]

" I'm CXP LVL 300 (Bought full 246 from GTN) "

 

Don't you feel, that once you're at 246, that you're pretty much done with gearing for that character? I feel like if you're at ~242+ you're pretty much good2go.

[Toraak]

" I'm CXP LVL 300 (Bought full 246 from GTN) "

 

Don't you feel, that once you're at 246, that you're pretty much done with gearing for that character? I feel like if you're at ~242+ you're pretty much good2go.

 

I fully agree. 248's are nice, but not needed at all. Out of my 13 300's. I only have 2 min maxed. Most of my toons are 242 fully geared and not moving from that. And this is where i'll leave this discussion since clearly some here will always disagree completely, and we'll never convince each other differently. Tux I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.

[Savej]

After 150 crates at 300 doing PVP you should have enough unassembled comms for multiple sets of 248s. I have 2 characters with mostly 248s and I got that from doing a lot of regs (this was before the bugged dlyies). RNG crates by themselves are not a good way to get full 248s. Edited November 6, 2017 by Savej

[TUXs]

Tux I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.

Likewise Toraak. Nothing about my opinion on the topic of gearing is personal at all...I actually really appreciate that you defended your statements. Unlike spouses, we're allowed to disagree and still be friends

[SteveTheCynic]

(Bought full 246 from GTN)

If you could buy it from the GTN, it was *crafted* 246.

 

If it was gear pieces, they are "GEMINI MK-4", fixed-stats/non-moddable AND endurance-heavy AND no set bonus.

 

If it was modification objects, they will lack the set bonus that you get on 246-purple gear drops from crates.

 

My position?

 

I have one character at 300, one at 117, a pair between 100 and 110, and all the rest well below 90. The 117 pulled a 236-yellow on her first T2 crate.

 

I did enough PvP on the 300 to get my Valor up to 67, and used that to crank her up to 300 and get UCs to buy 248 pieces. She's at 9 pieces of 248 and five pieces of 246, all with set bonus where relevant.

 

If you are at 300 and you have been doing lots of PvP, why *don't* you have more UC-bought yellow gear?

[Severith]

What you call a "tweak" some of us call a fundamental revamp. I've read dozens of your posts Solar and you have consistently failed to explain how disintegrating items enabling you to purchase specific items is even remotely a RNG-based system.

 

If the conversion rates stink (and they may well) -- I'll happily hop on that bandwagon and complain.

 

But the new system is the antithesis of RNG -- by its very definition -- except for the chance to get a great item you don't even have to purchase. I just don't see how you can't grasp this concept.

 

Dasty

 

So now we can disintegrate 248s we don't need in the hopes of eventually buying the 248s we do need. Except the vast majority of crates at tier 4 don't have 248s. It's RNG that determines that.

 

The devil is in the details. If every crate's equipment can be disintegrated for the same amount, then the RNG is gone for the purposes of disintegration. If only 248s can be disintegrated, that's a problem. If 246 purps can be disintegrated at a much lesser amount, then that's a problem. Etc.

 

Given the system as it currently is, it's probably a safer bet to assume RNG is still king while gearing through crates, until proven otherwise.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but it has to be implemented in an intelligent and fair way for it to actually make a difference.

[Andryah]

Never been a fan of the Cxp hamster wheel, or any hamster wheel in an MMO. I still have no character above Command level in the 40s, even after all these months. But I do have all my characters geared appropriate for their level and role and play approach in game (3 that I consider mains, and a host of various alts). Happily, this particular one can largely be bypassed with crafted gear which you can either make yourself or just buy from others on the GTN.

 

And no.. I do not agree with anyone who plays the "I'm too poor to buy gear from the GTN" card. Prior to 5.0, we had to run the hamster wheel for crystals in order to buy currency, or run OPs, or craft/buy-crafted. With 5.0.. instead of chasing crystals, you just chase some credits (some the game drops in rich quantities in game since 4.0.

 

This challenge is completely solvable (unless you simply must have the best of the best min/max with set bonus, yada yada) without resorting to just hopping on the hamster wheel the studio places directly in front of you.

[Jdast]

So now we can disintegrate 248s we don't need in the hopes of eventually buying the 248s we do need. Except the vast majority of crates at tier 4 don't have 248s. It's RNG that determines that.

 

The devil is in the details. If every crate's equipment can be disintegrated for the same amount, then the RNG is gone for the purposes of disintegration. If only 248s can be disintegrated, that's a problem. If 246 purps can be disintegrated at a much lesser amount, then that's a problem. Etc.

 

Given the system as it currently is, it's probably a safer bet to assume RNG is still king while gearing through crates, until proven otherwise.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but it has to be implemented in an intelligent and fair way for it to actually make a difference.

 

Agree with pretty much everything you said. My assumption (insert standard retort here about assumptions) is the following:

 

1. The higher quality the item, the more UC's you would get for disintegrating.

 

2. I highly doubt (and not sure I would even support) a 1:1 ratio -- meaning that if you get a 248 item you don't like you can exchange it for the exact same quality item. (There still needs to be some grind IMHO).

 

With that said, several of us on this forum have indicated that we may well hold on to some of our crates even after Nov. 28th hits because we assume the initial conversion rates will be need a rework. Put differently, I fully concur that it needs to be implemented in "an intelligent and fair way."

 

Regardless of the conversion rate, though, this is still a fundamental shift away from the old gearing system, particularly 5.0 in its initial implementation (which was silly) and we will know in a couple weeks such that time will tell (It does have a way of doing so to quote Lana Beniko).

 

But people complaining about a gearing system that is being overhauled remind me of people complaining about an outgoing politician who lost an election and only has two weeks left in office.

 

Dasty

Edited November 6, 2017 by Jdast

[Khartu]

Though it's a hard argument for a traditional mmo/arpg, I'd say ditch vertical progression altogether. They call it a treadmill for a reason, you get on and off at the same place. Here's the rundown: you are at power level X and new content drops which is at power level Y. You, all other players, and the environment all move from X to Y. The only difference is numbers on a character sheet (or combat log). You kill things at the same rate and you die just as fast at Y as you did at X. Vertical progression only provides an illusion of progression. And, I'm happy to point out here that the emperor has no clothes.

 

Since character progression is critical, what do you replace it with? Horizontal progression. Now, I'm not thinking that this will actually happen. Old school MMO's are not going to change any time soon. It's an easier idea to conceive for games like GW2 where there is some experience with horizontal progression, skill progression and the like. At some point all the hamsters will revolt, but it's out there somewhere in the future.

[DanNV]

I saw many guildies leave once they had full 224's in the 1st few weeks of 4.0. They had nothing else to strive for with no new Operations, so YES gearing to easily can drive people away.

 

No. The problem wasn't the gearing, the problem was the lack of new content. It's still the problem, it's been the problem. Hell, lack of endgame content was the problem at launch and these decision making team at BW decided to make the same mistake over again, and we've had over 2 years to see the results.

[fushnchips]

For that post: I'm a PVPer who isn't doing any PVE Stuff at all but maybe some PPL who are just playing Story or heroics could've the same problem: I'm CXP LVL 300 (Bought full 246 from GTN) and opened now over 150 crates of t4 crates and i really expected that im close to have full 248 gear but i basicly got seriously nothing out of it. the result of fcking 150 cxp crates was 1 relic,3 chests (already had so 3 useless pieces of gear) and bracers. so the way to get gear is just by rng crates,alone that fact is embarrassing.

 

 

I think im speaking for EVERYONE in this game and i know from LOTS OF PEOPEL that they just hate the cxp sytem. its just rng and thats the point:

-give us better drop charces for 248 gear (or generally 236,242,248)

-just remove the system and bring the vendors back,they worked in every patch perfect even that you could buy the mods and enhancement whitch you wanted/needed to create the "perfect gear" was a good fact. and i think everybody would be happy

-make a system that we can't get gear duplicated so we all won't have that ****** problem

-get self ideas its not really our job we are just the players who criticize you guys for that system of gearing

 

 

If i see nothing is happening,i'll say goodbye to the sub of the game,please think abaut it

 

lol speak for your self

[LordArtemis]

I understand the frustration with the system. I would not have designed a horizontal leveling system the way they designed it.

 

That said, I think increasing the token drops for the vendor armor would go a long way toward improving the system. Right now the token amounts dropped is far too low IMO.

[Costello]

I've seen it mentioned but what do people think is on the other side of that gear grind?

 

My main has got a gear rating of 248 (all pieces but one relic cause I'm waiting on a proc set I want) and 80 unopened tier 4 boxes. Getting there doesn't open up new content, it doesn't change the content that is already on offer. Things die the same when my rating was 247 as they do when its 248.

 

If you don't find the grind to tier 4 gear enjoyable, it wont make the lack of any grind after 248 enjoyable. You get to do it all over again on an alt or for an alt or for gear/boxes you don't need. I think the development team that came up with galactic command realized this, sure the grind seems to suck, sure it seems really alt unfriendly but what is the alternative. Make it easy and then have people saying the lack of endgame is disgusting. Least this way even as people are annoyed by the gear grind there is some pay off as you get that 248 piece of gear.

[Qouivandes]

what can be done? there is no way to make a game static for any length of time and keep people playing. its always: work for iLevel 2, 3,4 new expansion 5,6,7,8 new expansion 9,10....

that gear you may have spent weeks or months building up will be obsolete when the next expansion drops. because of this i praise the gaming deities when i get a really good piece of gear with full expectations that within months that common drop in the new starting zone of the next expansion pack will make it look like that white gear i got on day 1 way back when.

 

I agree with a lot of you especially those that point out that we have a lot of different approaches to gaining up to 248 gear. You gain the ability to get next level gear with everything you do. You will need to ensure, if you use UCs, that you keep a hold of some of the starting stuff so that you can turn it in along with tokens/UC, but in the end you can even bypass that route all together by gaining/buying the mats to craft, i believe 246?

 

ie. i was going to buy an offhand for my Knight. i ran some PvP for a dailies and weeklies along with FPs to get UCs. i had the tokens already, but noticed that i didnt have the level prior to that. so, i ran some more so that i could buy that level so that could get the 248. on my way to the vendors, PvP popped and jumped in and got another crate. i was fortunate, the offhand dropped for me. it really is the moment that i realized how rediculous it was for me to put all of that emphasis on a piece of gear that, honestly, isnt really needed. caveat, in PvP having a good set of PvP specific 248s would be beneficial, but since i PvE 98% of the time...my stuff is stated for PvE. i have no desire to actually spend my time building two sets of 248 gear, but i might be partial in building a set of 244s stated for PvP. (ive also just entered the world of augments...ha...yea, i know, right).

 

Where am I: I have one toon at 300. my next toon in the race is my sniper and he just passed 150. next is my BH who just got to 93. my jugg, though, is 1??, but he lost his status when they did that mirror thing. the fourth one is up and coming and is currently level 40 and hasnt started GC yet. however, i will most likely have a basic set of 244s by the time he gets to lvl 70 or, at the very least, i know he can do the various tasks that i do in 228s/230s (though having higher makes a couple of tasks a bit faster).

 

during this, i am amassing crates for 11/28 for the UCs and i have several other items that will help him come 70. If i didnt, then doing PVP weeklies will net me the harder mats to get at least some decent crafted. I really want to do harder FPs but, honestly, Im not sure i am effective enough to be of much good outside story or veteran mode. even then, I dont need 248s to do them. i have this thing with rotations...i tend to forget about them when the fighting starts.

 

I dont like GC...but i have found a way for it to work for me and my alts. sure i have to spend a day doing heroics to gain credits, but i also have stuff from the CM that i can sell (and have been). and those crates they amass wil be used when i bring my imperial through KoET/FE and i might just get the two pieces of that gear i am more interested.

 

TL;DR: a lot of people are right: GC is tedious and numbing (my word for the week i guess), but there are ways to get it to work for you. Look at what you need and figure out if you can deal with a combo of crafted/rng/drops. if youre a theorcrafter, then, ok, i get it...youre going to have a bad time, but even then you would, by now, have a way to get the numbers you want.

 

to add: 150 crates should have netted you a lot of credits, too...not to mention the UCs and Tokens should have you well on your way to winning the game with BiS248s.

[Sareeph]

No. The problem wasn't the gearing, the problem was the lack of new content. It's still the problem, it's been the problem. Hell, lack of endgame content was the problem at launch and these decision making team at BW decided to make the same mistake over again, and we've had over 2 years to see the results.

 

All Toraak is saying is that if gearing is too easy then there will be people who leave. He never said it was the sole cause, just that is one of the causes. I agree with him. I have seen quite a few people leave because they believed that by getting all the best gear they had beaten the game. That's a recurring MO with the console games. You beat it and move on to another. I do agree that the lack of new content here is the greater problem but that's the thing with MMO's, when someone quits because they "beat the game", they often come back later when more content is introduced to beat the new stuff. With that lack of new content in this game, the repeat winners are not returning. As stated by Toraak, there is more than one reason to play and quit a game.

 

here's the thing. If gearing is to easy, people will leave anyway because there isn't anything to dp. Personally the GC grind is nothing. I have 13 rank 300's now, and 2 more I'm working on. It's not hard, but it is a time sink. Not to mention the main point for GC Since 5.2 is to get people to do ALL content PvP, and PvE to gear out the fastest anyway. Doing only Operations or PvP exclusively will slow done your gear progression big time. It's less about RNG, and more about do Operations get 242's, then do PvP/GSF for components to upgrade those 242's to 248's. (tho after 5.6 you'll be able to get UC's from Disintegration so this is about to change again anyway).

Edited November 6, 2017 by Sareeph

[GalacticKegger]

You're about 11 months late to the party

 

Your point is valid nonetheless, and I agree with what you are saying. It's just that we've beaten this dead horse now since 5.0 was released.

 

Believe it or not, there are still some white knights who will defend the CXP/GC/RNG system. Mind = blown.

 

Anyway, even Keith, who when he first became lead producer people thought he would be this game's savior, said early on in so many words that he's not interested in removing the CXP/GC/RNG system. He will only tweak it.

 

It's been tweaked, and 5.6 will tweak it one more time (UC for disintegrating stuff ). Some white knights will even go so far as to say that we have no basis for our argument because of all the stuff that's been done to tweak it.

Those kinds of statements make me face palm.

 

Oh, well.

Yep. There is no tweak they can do to Galactic Command that will make it anything other than the low-budget solo Facebook RPG RNG booby prize in a box system it is. What sucks even worse is that it will soon be a plague that spreads through the entire game:

 

"CXP for all areas of the game is in review – as some players experienced with the Planetary Daily Areas, increased CXP makes us happier, so that’s our plan for all areas throughout the game and will coincide with A Traitor Among the Chiss update."

 

The game will sink or swim with Galactic Command, its RNG Galactic Crates (they renamed them from Command Crates hoping we couldn't tell the difference ... same pig, different lipstick) and Command XP. We are no longer playing Star Wars The Old Republic. We are playing Star Wars Galactic Command.

 

I wonder how many will leave over it once the name purges have been completed?

[Tahana]

For gearing? I absolutely agree. Gear in this game lets you play what you want...gear matters here. Gear is not the end game, it's simply what allows you to do endgame stuff.

 

Yes.. On this I absolutely agree. I have no problems running operations with my guild and not getting a flipping thing. I'm there for the fun, relaxation, and being around people that I enjoy. My life just simplified a lot this year and I returned to Wow first.. They still make the gear grind their end game.. No thanks. I've gotten two characters relatively decently geared (242 +) since about June/July time frame.. That includes leveling them and getting them both to level 300. The last one this weekend. But the gear allows me to do fun things with my guild. That is how it should be.

[GalacticKegger]

For gearing? I absolutely agree. Gear in this game lets you play what you want...gear matters here. Gear is not the end game, it's simply what allows you to do endgame stuff.

I have to disagree with you on this. Story rewards should be easy because (unless there are grammar or comprehension challenges involved) a story itself has no level of difficulty. Gear rewards on the other hand correlate to overcoming the difficulty level of a combat scenario. The more severe the difficulty, the better the gear rewarded. Gear in a MMO is a right of passage that should be earned imho. Randomly and promiscuously handing competitive equipment out to characters as an "easy button" shortcut is what solo mobile and tablet RPGs do. Edited November 6, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[SolarSaenz]

I've seen it mentioned but what do people think is on the other side of that gear grind?

 

My main has got a gear rating of 248 (all pieces but one relic cause I'm waiting on a proc set I want) and 80 unopened tier 4 boxes. Getting there doesn't open up new content, it doesn't change the content that is already on offer. Things die the same when my rating was 247 as they do when its 248.

 

If you don't find the grind to tier 4 gear enjoyable, it wont make the lack of any grind after 248 enjoyable. You get to do it all over again on an alt or for an alt or for gear/boxes you don't need. I think the development team that came up with galactic command realized this, sure the grind seems to suck, sure it seems really alt unfriendly but what is the alternative. Make it easy and then have people saying the lack of endgame is disgusting. Least this way even as people are annoyed by the gear grind there is some pay off as you get that 248 piece of gear.

 

I've been thinking along the same lines as this since my SW hit CR 300, currently my only character to have hit CR 300.

 

And then I came to a shocking and horrible conclusion. Stay with me now until the end. Don't get your pitch forks and torches out, please.

CXP/GC/RNG, "from a certain point of view", was actually "good" for the game, on paper in theory.

:eek::eek::eek:

No, please don't crucify me! Let me explain!

When making 5.0, the SWTOR team probably knew they had little to no new content that the majority of people would feel was worth repeating. The only thing, they likely thought, would keep people subscribed was a huge, seemingly never ending "eternal" gear grind.

They were hoping for minimal effort and maximum revenue. But, really, what else could they have done given the circumstances? I don't think they were in a position to create let's stay 2 new FULL operations,2 full FPs, a few daily areas, and a new WZ or 2 in the initial release of 5.0. They were facing a potential lose-lose situation. If they kept a commendations system for 5.0 that was similar to 1.x-4.x, people would get good gear quickly, realize there was hardly anything new to do and leave. But, with the CXP/RNG/GC system, they were hoping that would be enough to keep people paying.

 

Now, back to reality, the system was one of the biggest if not the biggest reason we saw an exodus of subscribers, even long term veterans from the game.

Right now, there really is no point to getting better gear from 4.x to 5.x. But, without new good content, what reason is there to stay in the game? I think the SWTOR team about a year ago was hoping GC/CXP/RNG would be the reason, but obviously, they were wrong.

 

Now, don't let it be said that I have a favorable view of the CXP/RNG/GC system. But, again, we're back to the same old conclusion people, me included, have been thinking about BW. they just don't have the resources to keep SWTOR "competitive" with its peers like WoW, FF14, ESO, etc.

[HuaRya]

As a GSF'er I hit 248 long long ago on my main six toons. I don't care to raid HM/NIM level ops but for the people that do I feel they deserve incentives in the way of Kell Dragon/Firebrand type armor with raid specific set bonus's that work only in PVE.

 

Call me superficial but the day's when we would be able to acquire a unique piece of armor/mount/deco in an operation meant everything to me.

[SourOrange]

We're in complete disagreement here. I don't know a single player who has left this game because gear was "too easy" to get. Even during 4.0 I didn't see people quit because of it. People quit because 4.0 and 5.0 were terrible and lacked any "MMO" content. Lack of new development is what has killed SWTOR, not easy gearing.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking. And because gearing is so terribly tedious and time consuming, now we have people arguing /against new content/ because it would "reset" their gear progress.. It's incredible how badly EAware has borked up the game if people are willing to argue against new content for any reason.

[Costello]

I think most people (not all) have said a lack of content this year has been an issue.

 

So if we take that as a given, other than a gear grind gamble what could they do? I am sure there are some people that play the game because its Bioware and Bioware make great games, I am sure some people play the game because its Star Wars. So if you want to play an MMO with either of these two aspects it has to be this one. Though it may be asked what in the last year or even before that has made you sit back and think this is Star Wars as opposed to this is Mass Effect MMO or whichever sci-fi or fantasy franchise you want to pick.

 

But if you aren't in that catergory but play the mmo for any non bioware/star wars reason and given there are a number of MMO's and single player games to choose from that offer a variety of game play. What could they have done with very very little content to keep people in the game. Would they have ignored the lack of content if there had been no gear increase and 4.0 gearing remained the BIS. Would people have quit even sooner rather than finding they didn't like Galactic Command and then quitting.

 

After all you have to subscribe to do galactic command to get unlucky with crates and find it sucks. You then have to subscribe to post how much it sucks. If it didn't exist no one would need to subscribe to run heroics or dailies and only a one time subscription to unlock the story chapters. Cause at that point unless you want to do pvp or an op you can sit as a preferred player and marvel at not having anything new to do.