KumbayaGOD Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) like title said , bioware please be creative for once , can you guys not make betrayal as main theme going forward 1. scorpio betrayal 2. koth betrayal 3.senya betrayal 4. and now theron betrayal see the pattern here ? Edited October 16, 2017 by KumbayaGOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwarzchild Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I'd agree that the trope is a bit over used. However if done right it's not a terrible device. Scorpio's betrayal was the egregious one to me on that list as I don't think it meshes with how that character developed in vanilla for the agent. Koth I get but think it was handled in an extremely childish way which diminished the potential impact. Senya's was decent and I don't have a problem with hers. Theron's could be decent as well as it's set up well if the writing is quality which the writing I feel is very inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SourOrange Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) The main problem with this trope is that it inevitably leads to people clamouring for a "kill" option.. Which can effectively erase a charater from the story for everyone, whether they chose to do it or not. Bioware doesn't have the resources to support those kinds of forks in the story right now, and they will only want to work with characters that are interacted with by everyone in order to be cost efficient. Not only are these stories hurtful and unnecessary, they are damaging the available cast of characters. Pretty soon it'll be the player, Lana and a bunch of stock characters that do nothing to further the story- oh wait.. Edited October 16, 2017 by SourOrange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzsi Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 The only problem I have with it is the characters ending up killed for some and totally ignored for others for future story but this is Star Wars. Spies, betrayal, dark and light is part of the theme. I'm surprised there hasn't been more of it -- especially in an alliance that has empire and republic personal working together. Im also surprised there hasn't at least been more Jaxo style character deaths for minor chars, given the constant state of war and so on. Just look at SW though, Palp and Anakin - betrayal. Kylo - betrayal. Betrayal is all over the books too, goes with the territory -- especially within the Sith/Empire -- in house betrayal there is common place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunafox Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 like title said , bioware please be creative for once , can you guys not make betrayal as main theme going forward 1. scorpio betrayal 2. koth betrayal 3.senya betrayal 4. and now theron betrayal see the pattern here ? It was a thing with them long before that... SW-Draahg betrays you...Baras and Quinn betray you...the Hand betrays you (by spying on you) SI-Darth Zash betrays you...Thanaton betrays you... Smug-Skavak betrays you...Skavak's skeezy ex girlfriend Syreena betrays you... I'm sure there are others but the mind is blanking out... It's an old trick pony that has been beaten to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuchessKristania Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 The main problem with this trope is that it inevitably leads to people clamouring for a "kill" option.. Which can effectively erase a charater from the story for everyone, whether they chose to do it or not. Bioware doesn't have the resources to support those kinds of forks in the story right now, and they will only want to work with characters that are interacted with by everyone in order to be cost efficient. Not only are these stories hurtful and unnecessary, they are damaging the available cast of characters. Pretty soon it'll be the player, Lana and a bunch of stock characters that do nothing to further the story- oh wait.. I could not agree more! I'm absolutely disgusted with the Theron betrayal story for a multitude of reasons, some of which I will not get into here for fear of being flayed (I actually wrote an article about it for The Geek Initiative if you want to know more.). One of my biggest issues with this whole plot line is that it takes yet another companion away from the player. You'd think with all the uproar about getting companions back the development team would know this is not a popular course of action. Additionally, it usually forces people to have Lana as a companion for at least the first play through of the flashpoint story content. Some people are already shouting for a Theron kill option and if that happens it will likely shove him into the realm of ghost companions. They're there, you can play with them but they probably won't be given any relevance to the story again. Here's the thing, if people don't want him around they *usually* don't have to run with him, but the people who do want to have him around should not have to miss out because someone wanted to sith-kabob him. I can't stand Lana, she grates on my every nerve, but that doesn't mean she should be taken from those who do like her. Theron is the Republic side of the Alliance coin, without him we're left with Lana, thus making the Alliance Empire heavy. Ironically, I prefer to play imp side, however all but one of my characters is completely light side. If they put in a kill option for Theron they better follow up with a kill option for Lana pretty quick. She's probably the only character I'd take a dark side hit to be rid of. I just want the whole stupid thing to be over with and I've never even romanced Theron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IoNonSoEVero Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) It was overused way before we got to KOTFE/KOTET. Spoilers for several Imperial classes: I mean, in the Sith Warrior's storyline alone, off the top of my head: Darth Baras, Lord Draag and Quinn all betray the player. Sith Inquisitor: Darth Zash, Darth Thanaton, the ghosts, sort of. Agent: Kaliyo and the Empire (the implants etc.) among others. If you're an Imperial player, you then also have Darth Severin and Darth Malgus with their New Empire scheme in the Ilum story arc, and you've got your own Emperor deciding to possess Imperial citizens and annihilate an entire planet with Ziost. I think it's way past old and tired at this point. And IMHO it should never be applied to love interests because those should be some stability for the player in a world where everything else is erratic. No, life isn't always about happy endings, but this is a fantasy game, give the players a break here and give them one thing that doesn't go to h**l in a handbasket. There are enough other places in the game for that... As others have mentioned, it also leads to people clamoring for kill options, which leads to those characters being largely excluded from the story from that point on, which is bad. The game constantly asks players to trust various NPCs, and yet they keep having the NPCs stab the player in the back. Edited October 16, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuchessKristania Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) It was overused way before we got to KOTFE/KOTET. Spoilers for several Imperial classes: I mean, in the Sith Warrior's storyline alone, off the top of my head: Darth Baras, Lord Draag and Quinn all betray the player. Sith Inquisitor: Darth Zash, Darth Thanaton, the ghosts, sort of. Agent: Kaliyo and the Empire (the implants etc.) among others. If you're an Imperial player, you then also have Darth Severin and Darth Malgus with their New Empire scheme in the Ilum story arc, and you've got your own Emperor deciding to possess Imperial citizens and annihilate an entire planet with Ziost. I think it's way past old and tired at this point. And IMHO it should never be applied to love interests because those should be some stability for the player in a world where everything else is erratic. No, life isn't always about happy endings, but this is a fantasy game, give the players a break here and give them one thing that doesn't go to h**l in a handbasket. There are enough other places in the game for that... As others have mentioned, it also leads to people clamoring for kill options, which leads to those characters being largely excluded from the story from that point on, which is bad. The game constantly asks players to trust various NPCs, and yet they keep having the NPCs stab the player in the back. Again, I totally agree. Edited October 16, 2017 by DuchessKristania Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearmasterblitz Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 It was a thing with them long before that... SW-Draahg betrays you...Baras and Quinn betray you...the Hand betrays you (by spying on you) SI-Darth Zash betrays you...Thanaton betrays you... Smug-Skavak betrays you...Skavak's skeezy ex girlfriend Syreena betrays you... I'm sure there are others but the mind is blanking out... It's an old trick pony that has been beaten to death. Let's not forget that the Trooper's entire first act is about the betrayal of the elite unit he just joined. But yeah. It especially annoyed me with both the SW and SI stories, with their masters betraying them. I know it's the Sith thing to do, but that's just it. It's what the Sith ALWAYS do. I was hoping for a surprise, or something new... Anymore it seems like almost all of Star Wars is just a rehash of old Star Wars concepts and plots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Well if you want to exchanges stories about being betrayed, you can always ask Lana. She's got experience with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bothan Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I'd agree that the trope is a bit over used. However if done right it's not a terrible device. Scorpio's betrayal was the egregious one to me on that list as I don't think it meshes with how that character developed in vanilla for the agent. Koth I get but think it was handled in an extremely childish way which diminished the potential impact. Senya's was decent and I don't have a problem with hers. Theron's could be decent as well as it's set up well if the writing is quality which the writing I feel is very inconsistent. Theron's betrayal pissed me off because a) I adore him, and b) I found the story weak. There's only one saving grace, that his actions suggest he's trying to protect the commander from some unknown threat and will ultimately return. Reaching the end of the smuggler story irritated me, because betrayal. But then, smuggler's not alone in this. Kaliyo. Quinn. Zash. There are only so many betrayal sequences we can play through before it becomes tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SourOrange Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) Theron's betrayal pissed me off because a) I adore him, and b) I found the story weak. There's only one saving grace, that his actions suggest he's trying to protect the commander from some unknown threat and will ultimately return. Even that isn't a good excuse- the "commander" as they are canonically, is a paragon of their craft. They've enslaved Force ghosts, gone on galaxy-wide treasure hunts, infiltrated and managed some of the most elite spy networks in the known galaxy, single-handedly disabled countless superweapons, defeated Darths (up to and including "Revan" who was apparently "more powerful than you can possibly imagine").. They've been around the block when it comes to danger, and they can clearly handle themselves. They don't need to be coddled and protected as if they couldn't hold their own. For being "in charge", the "commander" doesn't have much of say in anything, nor does anyone seem to feel it necessary to tell them about things of great importance.. It seems like the more "power" Bioware gives this commander character, the less agency they actually have. Alongside excessive use of betrayal as a plot point, making the player character a helpless idiot is among the biggest sins of the writing in this game. Edited October 16, 2017 by SourOrange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eshvara Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I don't think Lana will ever betray us at least. That's one companion scratched off the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKHadeed Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Well if you want to exchanges stories about being betrayed, you can always ask Lana. She's got experience with that. Look, I only have one agent who's flirting with Lana and is also an SIS plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IoNonSoEVero Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I don't think Lana will ever betray us at least. That's one companion scratched off the list. From your keyboard to the devs' ears. Actually I think they should have a moratorium on betrayals altogether. It's a big galaxy, they should be able to find something new to write about that doesn't include that trope foe Heaven;s sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyaniteD Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 It seems like the more "power" Bioware gives this commander character, the less agency they actually have. That's been part of the problem with the story since the "outlander" and what led to the one-dimensional game experience of being unidirectionally pulled through a story with a few dialogue options being the only decisions to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gokkus Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 You might as well add Valkorion and the Scions to the list too. Yeah it has become quite lame and overdone by now. The commander must be incredibly naive or have an awful security network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Costello Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) Agreed, though I doubt we will ever see any of the devs acknowledge that is been more than played out. Worse yet is that while those are the main four betrayals so far, they are all noteworthy for being done badly. If you really run down how it goes there were more. Valkorian betrayed the Sith Empire - No shocker so kind of accept it.Arcann betrays you if you side with him to kill his father - No real connection so you kind of accept it. All non return love interests decide that looking for you is a waste of time and they got better things to do but the incompetent Lana Banana can find you - Maybe not a betrayal but not a great deal of love either. The Heralds betray you to Arcann allowing him to find you - Maybe you didn't trust them, maybe they were never on your side?Kaylio and Major Paws have the option to disobey your order cause you don't call the shots. Gault and his buddy the ID forger appear to have betrayed each other - Not you so who cares.Next you can betray the Mandalorians by withholding information from them - Ah the abused becomes the abuser.Saresh and Minister Lorman betray various people and possibly you if you had been a loyal republic hero - Your former chancellor is trying to get you killed and steal your alliance.SCORPIO already listed but then she goes off the charts and betrays her new boss and keeps calling you up to say lets work together.Whether you consider what the Zakuul rebels did betraying their empress I don't know - Freedom fighters vs traitors? I'm sure if you really worked at it you could find plenty more examples and some fit the story, some for better or worse are plot devices or simply the NPC acting in character so they don't feel like you have been betrayed. But there are those that have been so jarring that they stand out as being just used as a bad crutch to some how put a twist in the story. Senya, Justice must be done, my children must be stopped and brought to justice etc etc etc. Then Arcann is almost defeated and her words are 'Justice has been done.' How is him being hurt when I defended myself with the magic shield and he got hurt in the explosion Justice for the trillions he murdered? For killing his own Brother? For all the war crimes he has committed? Oh but he got hurt trying to kill you, so that is justice. Likewise, for any in doubt about Theron go back and play Iokath knowing what you know now. I just did it on my agent, his LI is coming back. When the god of rage talks of the betrayer he tells you that Theron is filled with rage, that he has brought you there to be Sacrificed. That is not the act of a double agent, that is someone who hates you and wants you dead. Likewise you get told the traitor started the war by inviting the Sith and the Republic to the planet together, its just a wonder how he knew of the super weapon but no one else did.This is not the actions of someone that wants peace, his just reignited the war. More so by informing his father of the weapon he led to his own fathers death. There is no oh but I was doing it all for your good. You tried to sacrifice me and even though the explosions didn't kill me (which you had no way of knowing) and I didn't end up like Malcom I was still out for days. Oh but you knew I'd survive, just like you knew I'd survive a train crash and restarting a war is for peace. Theron has betrayed you 100% and there is no redemption in that arc, when you go back through you see there is no grey and its all for the good of the commander. His now tried to kill you twice, restarted a war between the Empire and Republic and is now selling Alliance Secrets. Edited October 16, 2017 by Costello Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 This is one of the reasons why I wanted to side w/ Vaylin. She had this constant betrayal theme going too. (Senya, Nathema, Arcann, Scorpio, Zakuul Party Guy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangenee Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I'm fully expecting an all out rebellion by my weapons and equipment. I fully expect to log in one day and find my own ship performing a strafing run on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khartu Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Betrayal must be handled deftly and subtly. It's a human element of great stories. However, if it becomes a theme it means you are doing it wrong. I would say it's a very heavy-handed element at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuchessKristania Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) Likewise, for any in doubt about Theron go back and play Iokath knowing what you know now. I just did it on my agent, his LI is coming back. When the god of rage talks of the betrayer he tells you that Theron is filled with rage, that he has brought you there to be Sacrificed. That is not the act of a double agent, that is someone who hates you and wants you dead. Likewise you get told the traitor started the war by inviting the Sith and the Republic to the planet together, its just a wonder how he knew of the super weapon but no one else did.This is not the actions of someone that wants peace, his just reignited the war. More so by informing his father of the weapon he led to his own fathers death. There is no oh but I was doing it all for your good. You tried to sacrifice me and even though the explosions didn't kill me (which you had no way of knowing) and I didn't end up like Malcom I was still out for days. Oh but you knew I'd survive, just like you knew I'd survive a train crash and restarting a war is for peace. Theron has betrayed you 100% and there is no redemption in that arc, when you go back through you see there is no grey and its all for the good of the commander. His now tried to kill you twice, restarted a war between the Empire and Republic and is now selling Alliance Secrets. Let me start by saying, you bring up some very good points. I just really hope you're wrong about them, lol. I do personally feel that the train incident looked staged. He aims at you but hits Lana with a clearly non-lethal blast. Then he shoots out the window immediately after that and before shooting the controls. I'm hoping that that those were hints that he didn't really want to kill you and was trying to provide an escape route for you. Now, I could just be giving the writing more crdit than it deserves but I'm going to keep my fingers crossed. Edited October 16, 2017 by DuchessKristania Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodrac Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 like title said , bioware please be creative for once , can you guys not make betrayal as main theme going forward 1. scorpio betrayal 2. koth betrayal 3.senya betrayal 4. and now theron betrayal see the pattern here ? Yep. It's definitely Col. Mustard with the rope in the library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaRya Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 The writers tend to gush over the Game of Thrones Template as do the new Star Trek Discovery writers. That is why the Orville is the new Star Trek emulating 80's and 90's sci-fi instead of the current tripe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilkat Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 The writers tend to gush over the Game of Thrones Template as do the new Star Trek Discovery writers. That is why the Orville is the new Star Trek emulating 80's and 90's sci-fi instead of the current tripe. GoT is the worst thing to model after. Everyone DIES!!! Unless they are going for ending the Alliance by simply killing off everyone, including our characters, then starting over as someone else. That'd be kind of interesting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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