Discussion Topic: Bolster Changes in PvP

[Ramalina]

I'm not hugely passionate about PvP outside of GSF, so I skipped from about page 5 of comments to here and may be repeating someone else's points.

 

 

I see two really core problems with PvP ground game gearing right now.

 

1. The grind is so long that gearing alts is extremely tedious and time consuming. That's an issue if balance changes severely disrupt class or even advanced spec balance (at least for those players who care significantly about winning). It's also somewhat of an issue if you've just become bored of a particular class and want to change things up.

 

A bolster that's set pretty high can largely alleviate that. It sort of screws with gear progression as an end in itself, but if you just want to play PvP without being penalized for grinding the "wrong" class and spec, or being penalized for not having sunk a probably unhealthy amount of playtime into gearing multiple characters, then a very high level of bolster is a workable, but sub-optimal solution.

 

2. There seems to be a significant time cost penalty in gearing via PvP vs gearing via SM and HM Ops. This is a bit trickier to sort out in a sensible way. Progress in an Op, even a groupfinder SM Op, typically requires more coordination that you normally see in standard WZ's or even in solo queued Arenas, and failing to progress gets you nothing. That suggests that on some sort of fairness level, Ops grade PvE should reward well more in terms of loot progression than any sort of PvP other than Team Ranked Arenas. By that standard, even harder difficulties of Flashpoints should reward substantially more than PvP. The problem with that model is when you run into a motivated player. A player who is motivated and spending the time to gear and learning the skill needed to PvP at a high level is going to be easily competent to do HM Ops, provided they aren't so anti-social that no regular raiding group will take them. As a result, for the tail end of the motivated PvPers, the logical PvP gearing solution is to join an HM raiding group and hit the loot piñata until most of your slots at full, and only then start actually PvP-ing to upgrade to top tier gear (assuming the NiM raiding groups are hard to find, and not keen on people gearing up and then running off to PvP until the next tier of gear comes out).

 

It creates perverse incentives in the gearing path for PvP. I'm not sure if there are great solutions, but I suppose as an interim first step making Team Areanas something of a loot piñata might be a first step. It requires skill, organization, and teamwork, and the skill cap potentially exceeds that of NiM Ops, though the floor is around as low as a FP with a GSI helper droid.

 

Just generally increasing the gear payout of PvP might also be called for. Ideally you reward ideal play well. The trick is increasing rewards enough to reduce the perverse PvP gearing incentives without reversing it and creating a flood of PvE players gaming PvP gearing for the sake of PvE gearing and also avoiding performance rewards that create perverse playstyle incentives.

 

The PvE loot piñatas are currently better enough than the PvP loot piñatas so that PvP can feel a bit like being a second class endgame citizen IFF you belong to a PvE piñata bashing club (raid group). Of course, you want to reward the clubs for the work they do for their members, but you also don't want PvE club membership to feel mandatory for people who are really passionate about PvP and could care less about PvE.

 

Sorry I don't have a great solution proposal, but juggling or solving outright that PvP/PvE reward to effort ratio is I think part of the problem.

 

Small incentives to change up gameplay types are good, but there's a line somewhere on which one side of the line it's a really sweet bonus for variety, and on the other side it feels like punishment if you choose to specialize. The caveat of course being that if you ask a purist specialist player where that line is, they'll typically give an extraordinarily biased description of where it ought to be. I guess I'd try to find players that like PvP and PvE about equally well and then try to determine if they feel that one side of the balance offers a definite advantage. If they say one side is better that's a definite problem, if they say you have to do both or you'll suffer that's a problem but not as big a one, if they say that it's a bit faster and easier to do both but it doesn't really matter, then you've got it dialed in well.

[RooRider]

Option 4 Eric - Bolster to 246 level.

 

This allows a tiny bit of room to improve stats, but effectively removes the gear gap. 248 gear will still be sought after, keeping the grind exactly as it is now.

 

I agree with this.

With the current system you're punished if you can't grind 20 hrs per week on a toon; or if you like playing multiple classes or different specs. This system really does reward players who only play one class, and have lots of time up their sleeve to play for hours every day.

There are plenty of subs that exclusively pvp and many I know of have un-subbed since they don't want to spend 6 months grinding out components just to be on a level playing field. I believe increasing bolster will bring players back who exclusively pvp, and do a better job of retaining existing subs, who don't want to be confined to playing one specific toon.

And it doesn't impact players who want to grind as they'll still be rewarded with better stats than everyone else.

 

 

The best solution for pvp would be to re-introduce un-assembled components (formerly wz comms) back into lowbies and middies. Removing the comms from lower brackets was short-sighted and aimed at making a quick dollar on 60/65 tokens. A byproduct of that decision is you have made all pre-70 content obsolete for players who are interested in end-game content. I first came to Harbinger server around 2.4 or 2.5; the first few toons I rolled, I leveled exclusively through pvp. Due to my schedule I would play at various times of the day; but regardless of the time I played, I wouldn't wait more than 10 minutes for a match. I've recently started leveling a new toon; during peak west-coast time I'm struggling to get in a game. 30+ minutes in queue yesterday without a pop. Lower tiers are dead, and this is where people should be learning the basics of their class.

The effect this has had on level 70 pvp is you have dramatically lower standards of play vs this time 12 months ago. People are rushing to level 70 to start the gear grind without having a basic understanding of the class they're playing. Spending a week pew pewing mobs on your new class, then jumping straight in to 70 pvp is a rude awakening; most players in this scenario are nothing more than target practice for experienced players. It's disheartening for the players getting beaten up; and it becomes boring to most players doing the face-rolling. The player base don't agree on much, but I think there are two things most players will agree on; 1) They want matches to be competitive; and 2) They want to make a good account of themselves in a match. In the current state of the pvp neither is being achieved.

Re-instating un-assembled components in lower brackets, and increasing the component cap-limit will increase the player pool in these brackets. Players will be at least able to buy a decent set of gear once they hit level 70 and they'll have some idea of what they're doing on their class once they reach end-game pvp. They'll by no means be experts on their class, but it will be a much gentler learning-curve; one that is far less discouraging than present.

Edited July 3, 2017 by RooRider
correcting grammar

[Icykill_]

I absolutely agree that it's a bandaid solution. But this isn't some kind of irritating scratch; this is more properly described as a hemorrhaging wound. I mean, the point of RNG was just to stall people from reaching the top of their class' HPS/DPS potential and to keep people from leaving. They even introduced a shinny 4th Tier just to make us think that they really appreciated our frustrations, but the end result was the same, and we were left with the same crazy making product. Nobody really thought it would actually keep them from leaving, but it was a fairly effective but costly stall. Remember those earlier stalling short-sighted strategies, like increasing the XP rate and introducing instant 60 tokens so that WZs were (and still are) full off people trying to score on their own team. Did they really care that this was going to piss people off in the long run?

 

Bolstering is just a bandaid on top of another bandaid, for something that needs to be surgically removed. We're right back to where we started years ago: people leaving because the end game has become boring and because servers are dead. And once people start pushing for server mergers, which the devs pretty much ignore, then populations just spiral into the drain.

 

I honestly don't know how they're going to mitigate the increasing loss of players. Yeah, removing RNG would cost them a bit. But it might actually be an effective way to win a lot of players back. Bring back OPs passes, release the 2nd part of Valley of the Machine Gods, and remove RNG and you'll have an uptick. Spend x number of hours making it so Theren can wear a fancy bra, spend tons of time creating a new world that hardly anyone spends any time on and fine tune a bolster system and maybe they won't lose as many players as they know they will.

 

I actually agree with all of your points and the ideas of what needs to happen. But I know it won't happen before another expansion. Should they do it? absolutely. Would they do it? no way. Our only option is another bandaid and some antibiotics and then hope the infection doesn't kill us all till they can do major surgery.

With the OPs passes, do you also mean the WZ passes too, so that preferred and F2P could buy? If so, I'm in 100% agreement. I would also like to see them open CXP up to Tier one for those two groups. Not because I want them to get free stuff, I don't. I'm not a fan of this F2P model and think it should be only subs. But we are stuck with this model and when they removed the passes and locked those people out of "all" gearing in the end game, it just drove those players away and accelerated the people leaving. They need to try and boost the participation again and that will only happen by allowing those players back into some end game content.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Icykill_

[Aresnar]

Two disclaimers before I post: -

 

I am only a casual PvP'er, don't do ranked, enjoy normal WZ, GSF and also do PVE but not operations generally.

 

I have only read the first two pages (with max no of posts in settings) of this thread.

 

Now:

 

What I get the feeling reading this thread is that there is a clear difference between dedicated PvP'ers and the rest.

 

Now by dedicated PvP'ers I mean those for whom PvP is the MAIN game and the rest is a bit of a distraction.

 

Dedicated PvPers want gear to not be a factor at all.

 

Problem is gear is a valuable incentive in an MMO especially for people who are not so dedicated like me.

 

I fully admit, that I would not PvP as much as I currently do without some manner of tangible reward. I would still PvP but far less.

 

I want a reward.

 

I will assume that most casual PvPers also want some form of reward for their efforts as well that they can take into other aspects of the game.

 

So my question to the dedicated PvPers is:

 

How would you motivate casual PvPers to take part in PvP without some form of gear progression?

 

It's one thing to simply state :

 

- BW Remove Gear as a Reward!!!

 

It's another to give a way they can still offer incentives for Players to take part in PvP.

 

I honestly feel that finding an answer to this would be a more productive then simply stating that BW should remove gear / increase Bolster to BiS.

[Alssaran]

As have you, yet you keep on going. What I find quite funny about it is, that while you're under the illusion that every "dedicated" PVP player in this thread agrees with you, and that poor little me is arguing with all of them, there are posts upon posts that seem to disagree with you. Guess they all aren't as "DEDICATED" as you are, right??.....

 

You know what's actually funny, truth be told?

 

There aren't that many people who disagree with her. Icykill very often hits the correct nerf with the broader PvP community. As "WayOfTheWarriorX" has pointed out, she does a lot of factual work on this game's PvP, and she can probably tell you a lot about this game's PvP community. Because you can believe it or not, there's not much left.

 

What you and some other people are doing, however, isn't participating in a discussion. You are presenting the idea that gaining 242 in two hours is an universal fact. Like it's something that anyone who does PvP can easily do and readily do whenever he feels like it, but this suggestion leaves out two very important factors: Server and guilds. Some servers have very few guilds that actually raid HM and NiM mode enough to even offer these kind of services. I'd be hard pressed to find a guild on Progenitor that runs HM easily enough and frequently enough to waste all the loot on a single person who hands five million over.

 

However, I'm trailing off. The hilarious thing is that this thread has 48 pages of answers, yet ten or fifteen of those are easily you and two or three other people bickering about their solutions and why you or the other person should be right, or is entitled to an opinion. And, yes, this is a discussion post. However, you're very quick to share the sentiment that "many don't agree with your sentiment. Look at this post." when in reality, we really don't have any numbers. Between page 25 and 38, you and SilverStarSeaker post two to three times a page, easily. Sometimes three or four times in a row.

 

I'm hesitant to call it a false consensus bias because the evidence is not quite there yet.

 

Your entire argument is based on the 242s from operations, which is a crappy argument. Plain and simple. It showcases that PvP players DO HAVE a point when they complain about PvP gearing being slow compared to PvE gearing. Let me make this abudantly clear:

 

A PvE player should be able to gear from PvE in a reasonable amount of time without being forced into PvP. A PvP player should be able to gear from PvP in a reasonable amount of time without being forced into PvE. If pure PvE gearing to 242s takes two hours, and pure PvP gearing to 242 takes six weeks, then there is an incredible and unfair imbalance in the system that shouldn't exist. At least not when the gear in both systems is the same, and crowd A receives an unfair advantage over crowd B by having it. Seeing both kinds of systems use the same gear, the time to acquire it should be equal for people who do one of the two to not unfairly disadvantage players of the other end.

 

And if this status exists based on your own admission, it should be changed. If PvE players only need to play for two hours to be equipped in 242, then bolster should be at 242 to even the playing field for PvP players. And if you are not in favour of raising bolster to that point, I put forward the notion that PvE gearing should not include tokens, but components too. Such an unfair advantage on the PvE player's end for the same gear is unsustainable.

 

Your suggestion is based on the idea that PvE players can gear quickly by solely doing what they like, and PvP players have to bear with PvE to gear quickly and do something they dislike. You're essentially continuing to defent an unfair advantage to PvE players by saying: "Just bear with it and do our content." Whenever a PvP player says this, PvE players throw warzones or AFK farm to gain their rewards.

 

This could easily be resolved if BiS PvP and PvE gear were two different things starting in 6.0. As it has been in 3.0 and 4.0. But seeing it isn't possible and we have to work with Eric's solutions, by your own two hour admission - 242 bolster makes the most sense to counter the "two hour PvE player" completely wreck the "two hour PvP player" when entering a warzone. The first one shouldn't have such a huge advantage in the second one's kind of content for the same time investment.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Alssaran

[Icykill_]

Two disclaimers before I post: -

 

I am only a casual PvP'er, don't do ranked, enjoy normal WZ, GSF and also do PVE but not operations generally.

 

I have only read the first two pages (with max no of posts in settings) of this thread.

 

Now:

 

What I get the feeling reading this thread is that there is a clear difference between dedicated PvP'ers and the rest.

 

Now by dedicated PvP'ers I mean those for whom PvP is the MAIN game and the rest is a bit of a distraction.

 

Dedicated PvPers want gear to not be a factor at all.

 

Problem is gear is a valuable incentive in an MMO especially for people who are not so dedicated like me.

 

I fully admit, that I would not PvP as much as I currently do without some manner of tangible reward. I would still PvP but far less.

 

I want a reward.

 

I will assume that most casual PvPers also want some form of reward for their efforts as well that they can take into other aspects of the game.

 

So my question to the dedicated PvPers is:

 

How would you motivate casual PvPers to take part in PvP without some form of gear progression?

 

It's one thing to simply state :

 

- BW Remove Gear as a Reward!!!

 

It's another to give a way they can still offer incentives for Players to take part in PvP.

 

I honestly feel that finding an answer to this would be a more productive then simply stating that BW should remove gear / increase Bolster to BiS.

 

It's very easy to motivate them and I explained how in a couple of my posts.

You keep the current gear system in place with command tokens, etc... everything you currently get in pvp to gear up.

I'm not suggesting that be removed at all because it's a valuable tool for people to get their gear to use "outside of pvp".

That is the incentive for the casual pvper like yourself who is currently playing pvp to supplement their gear grind for pve content.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Icykill_

[Alssaran]

It's another to give a way they can still offer incentives for Players to take part in PvP.

 

I'd ask whether gear is the only incentive that gets people to do content. That would mean, essentially, that the moment the player reaches BiS numbers, any incentive to do content is gone. Why can't unassembled components not be used to buy specific PvP decorations, cosmetic armours, titles, mounts and other things?

 

It seems that the word "incentive" is always synonymous with "gear" for most people, when in reality, the two things can be very different things altogether.

 

I agree that some form of gear progression should be kept, but maybe it's time to seperate the two gear progressions a little bit. Or offer slightly lower-rated gear with expertise and PvE gear again, which both can be bought for Components, albeit the PvE gear at a higher price, or a balanced price so that PvP gearing for PvE doesn't become faster than gearing through PvE. That way casual PvP players could still upgrade their PvE gear occasionally, but PvP players could enjoy a faster gear progression.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Alssaran

[Serrowherrow]

Bump bolster up to 242. Let PvP be competitive and more alt-friendly than it currently is, still retains a measure of gear progression for people who only PvP and it represents another method of acquiring gear for endgame PvE.

[Icykill_]

Bump bolster up to 242. Let PvP be competitive and more alt-friendly than it currently is, still retains a measure of gear progression for people who only PvP and it represents another method of acquiring gear for endgame PvE.

 

Why only 242?

[Lahandra]

What you and some other people are doing, however, isn't participating in a discussion.

 

Actually, no..... My very first post was quite clear about my opinion on which option I would choose. It read "1. Bolster is equal to item rating 238..... It's fine the way it is." The rest have been refuting many a falsehood about gearing and such. Like the ones below......

 

You are presenting the idea that gaining 242 in two hours is an universal fact.

 

Because it is...... Not saying it's the "only" way to do it, but it's certainly one very easy and fast way to do it.

 

Like it's something that anyone who does PvP can easily do and readily do whenever he feels like it, but this suggestion leaves out two very important factors: Server and guilds.

 

Judging by your responses, you haven't even tried. But yes, it's an easy and fast option available for anyone who wants to take it. Again, maybe when the Q isn't popping for pvp, you might just try throwing it out in gen chat to see if there are any takers. Unless you're asserting that guilds don't exist on your server, in which case I would most definitely call BS.

 

Some servers have very few guilds that actually raid HM and NiM mode enough to even offer these kind of services. I'd be hard pressed to find a guild on Progenitor that runs HM easily enough and frequently enough to waste all the loot on a single person who hands five million over.

 

I would be ready to bet real money that I could transfer to that server tomorrow and find a guild that does just that, or at the very least pug one myself...... The game is dying, but it ain't that dead. JC, a server that's certainly seen a big hit to it's pop over the last two years, still has multiple guilds running ops every night. Never mind the easiest faceroll of the hm ops (EV/KP) still being pugged out in gen chat quite regularly. I would ask though, if you're that dedicated to PVP, and that's your way of enjoying the game, why on earth you would choose what was an RP-PVE based server in the first place? You're pretty much asking for the lowest pop'd server with some of the least participation in PVP/PVE with that choice. Not begrudging your preference if RP is your thing, but you're basically choosing to be on a server that will have less participation and likely die much quicker than any of the other servers barring a merger.

 

However, I'm trailing off. The hilarious thing is that this thread has 48 pages of answers, yet ten or fifteen of those are easily you and two or three other people bickering about their solutions and why you or the other person should be right, or is entitled to an opinion.

 

Which in almost every case never would have come up had there not been a complete fallacy stated about gearing and such, or we had not been TOLD we didn't have a right to an opinion on the subject, which is still a hilarious notion.

 

And, yes, this is a discussion post. However, you're very quick to share the sentiment that "many don't agree with your sentiment. Look at this post." when in reality, we really don't have any numbers. Between page 25 and 38, you and SilverStarSeaker post two to three times a page, easily. Sometimes three or four times in a row.

 

And always in response..... Just like this one. Or in a few cases, agreeing wholeheartedly with a few of the posts.

 

I'm hesitant to call it a false consensus bias because the evidence is not quite there yet.

 

Your entire argument is based on the 242s from operations, which is a crappy argument. Plain and simple. It showcases that PvP players DO HAVE a point when they complain about PvP gearing being slow compared to PvE gearing. Let me make this abudantly clear:

 

A PvE player should be able to gear from PvE in a reasonable amount of time without being forced into PvP. A PvP player should be able to gear from PvP in a reasonable amount of time without being forced into PvE. If pure PvE gearing to 242s takes two hours, and pure PvP gearing to 242 takes six weeks, then there is an incredible and unfair imbalance in the system that shouldn't exist. At least not when the gear in both systems is the same, and crowd A receives an unfair advantage over crowd B by having it. Seeing both kinds of systems use the same gear, the time to acquire it should be equal for people who do one of the two to not unfairly disadvantage players of the other end.

 

But this gearing system isn't changing anytime soon..... While we can all hold our breath and toss out pie in the sky ideas, bioware has given no indication that there will be separate gear for PVP/PVE ever again. Hell, it's been my contention that PVP and PVE should be entirely different class balance systems (which is a FAR more pressing issue than this bolster nonsense), but Bioware isn't going to put in the time to EVER make that happen. So there is no point in discussing the fact that both camps HAVE to do the other's activity to min/max. That being said, the PVE grind, as you HAVE to have 248 min/max for endgame/NiM content guarantees a longer grind doing something other than your preferred activity than if you're a PVP player. This in turn, makes many of the posts we see about PVP'ers complaining about the grind quite ironic and laughable. Especially when you have obvious options like the ones some keep insisting on arguing about the existence of.

 

And if this status exists based on your own admission, it should be changed. If PvE players only need to play for two hours to be equipped in 242, then bolster should be at 242 to even the playing field for PvP players. And if you are not in favour of raising bolster to that point, I put forward the notion that PvE gearing should not include tokens, but components too. Such an unfair advantage on the PvE player's end for the same gear is unsustainable.

 

But that's not the case. A PVE player, beginner that is, has the same hill to climb. Never mind that there aren't regular token drops in all of the NiM content. If we go with that argument.... HM/NiM content actually requires some skill and time to complete, so they would be in the same boat of buying their way to 242's. SM ops being more akin to PVP regs (regs being something that anyone can just drop into at any skill level and still succeed), the token drops are 236. So shouldn't that be the bolster?? It's the equivalent, right?? I didn't say getting geared in one night was an easy task if you weren't being carried, nor that the 2 1/2 hour option was the most likely, I simply put that there as an option if you wanted to get it done quickly and had the money or resources to burn. Gearing in one night might not be AS likely as doing it over a few nights, but it's certainly available and possible as an option for both PVP AND PVE players.

 

Your suggestion is based on the idea that PvE players can gear quickly by solely doing what they like, and PvP players have to bear with PvE to gear quickly and do something they dislike. You're essentially continuing to defent an unfair advantage to PvE players by saying: "Just bear with it and do our content." Whenever a PvP player says this, PvE players throw warzones or AFK farm to gain their rewards.[/i]

 

That most certainly isn't my suggestion or idea, and is the exact opisite of what I have stated time and time again..... One more time, just in case you haven't gotten it already. PVP has a very quick option for getting to 242, the rest of the grind is something they love. PVE has this same option to 242, but then has a longer grind ahead of it getting to 248 doing something they don't love. Understand?

 

This could easily be resolved if BiS PvP and PvE gear were two different things starting in 6.0. As it has been in 3.0 and 4.0. But seeing it isn't possible and we have to work with Eric's solutions, by your own two hour admission - 242 bolster makes the most sense to counter the "two hour PvE player" completely wreck the "two hour PvP player" when entering a warzone. The first one shouldn't have such a huge advantage in the second one's kind of content for the same time investment.

 

Again.... at this time.... gear isn't changing.....so pointless to discuss. The 2 1/2 hour option is a shortcut to both parties if you're an inexperienced player. There is no advantage either way to the inexperienced. And no.... 236 makes the most sense, for the reasons I listed above. The equivalent to SM ops entry level token gear...... but since that's not an option to choose from, I went with 238. Get it now???

Edited July 3, 2017 by Lahandra

[SilverStarSeaker]

Actually, no..... My very first post was quite clear about my opinion on which option I would choose. It read "1. Bolster is equal to item rating 238..... It's fine the way it is." The rest have been refuting many a falsehood about gearing and such. Like the ones below......

 

 

 

Because it is...... Not saying it's the "only" way to do it, but it's certainly one very easy and fast way to do it.

 

 

 

Judging by your responses, you haven't even tried. But yes, it's an easy and fast option available for anyone who wants to take it. Again, maybe when the Q isn't popping for pvp, you might just try throwing it out in gen chat to see if there are any takers. Unless you're asserting that guilds don't exist on your server, in which case I would most definitely call BS.

 

 

 

I would be ready to bet real money that I could transfer to that server tomorrow and find a guild that does just that, or at the very least pug one myself...... The game is dying, but it ain't that dead. JC, a server that's certainly seen a big hit to it's pop over the last two years, still has multiple guilds running ops every night. Never mind the easiest faceroll of the hm ops (EV/KP) still being pugged out in gen chat quite regularly. I would ask though, if you're that dedicated to PVP, and that's your way of enjoying the game, why on earth you would choose what was an RP-PVE based server in the first place? You're pretty much asking for the lowest pop'd server with some of the least participation in PVP/PVE with that choice. Not begrudging your preference if RP is your thing, but you're basically choosing to be on a server that will have less participation and likely die much quicker than any of the other servers barring a merger.

 

 

 

Which in almost every case never would have come up had there not been a complete fallacy stated about gearing and such, or we had not been TOLD we didn't have a right to an opinion on the subject, which is still a hilarious notion.

 

 

 

And always in response..... Just like this one. Or in a few cases, agreeing wholeheartedly with a few of the posts.

 

 

 

But this gearing system isn't changing anytime soon..... While we can all hold our breath and toss out pie in the sky ideas, bioware has given no indication that there will be separate gear for PVP/PVE ever again. Hell, it's been my contention that PVP and PVE should be entirely different class balance systems (which is a FAR more pressing issue than this bolster nonsense), but Bioware isn't going to put in the time to EVER make that happen. So there is no point in discussing the fact that both camps HAVE to do the other's activity to min/max. That being said, the PVE grind, as you HAVE to have 248 min/max for endgame/NiM content guarantees a longer grind doing something other than your preferred activity than if you're a PVP player. This in turn, makes many of the posts we see about PVP'ers complaining about the grind quite ironic and laughable. Especially when you have obvious options like the ones some keep insisting on arguing about the existence of.

 

 

 

But that's not the case. A PVE player, beginner that is, has the same hill to climb. Never mind that there aren't regular token drops in all of the NiM content. If we go with that argument.... HM/NiM content actually requires some skill and time to complete, so they would be in the same boat of buying their way to 242's. SM ops being more akin to PVP regs (regs being something that anyone can just drop into at any skill level and still succeed), the token drops are 236. So shouldn't that be the bolster?? It's the equivalent, right?? I didn't say getting geared in one night was an easy task if you weren't being carried, nor that the 2 1/2 hour option was the most likely, I simply put that there as an option if you wanted to get it done quickly and had the money or resources to burn. Gearing in one night might not be AS likely as doing it over a few nights, but it's certainly available and possible as an option for both PVP AND PVE players.

 

 

 

That most certainly isn't my suggestion or idea, and is the exact opisite of what I have stated time and time again..... One more time, just in case you haven't gotten it already. PVP has a very quick option for getting to 242, the rest of the grind is something they love. PVE has this same option to 242, but then has a longer grind ahead of it getting to 248 doing something they don't love. Understand?

 

 

 

Again.... at this time.... gear isn't changing.....so pointless to discuss. The 2 1/2 hour option is a shortcut to both parties if you're an inexperienced player. There is no advantage either way to the inexperienced. And no.... 236 makes the most sense, for the reasons I listed above. The equivalent to SM ops entry level token gear...... but since that's not an option to choose from, I went with 238. Get it now???

 

 

Are you suggesting that people should have to put at least minimal effort into the game and not be given a free handout?! How dare you?! What about the 5 credit spammers still on pot5 or The Bastion, how will they get BiS?

[SilverStarSeaker]

I have a question:

 

If bolster is raised to 250, PVPers will unsubscribe and join a guild that will group them into Unranked.

 

A very good point.

[frosttj]

Is the underlying tone for or against a bolster increase in this thread? Do people want display their skill at the game or do people want to display their time invested? Personally, I'd rather have a display of skill on the table and leave time invested in the game for cosmetic rewards. Also, I'd be in favor of ranked being a display of time invested and skill, since that's really where people get the number assigned to their performance. Leave Regs to be the SM of PVP, bolster it up so everyone's competitive. Let ranked be the place where a players dedication to gearing can shine. The progression as it were. I'm sure this points been made, and many people like or disliked the notion, but I don't feel like reading 50 pages of it.

 

I just don't see the point in going into an unranked PVP WZ as a casual player and having a drastic gear disparity determine the outcome of a fight. Why would anyone want that? Is it not more gratifying to win a match based on your performance and not that you simply have an advantage because you played more? Does sinking more time into the game entitle you to be better than a player who doesn't?

 

I really think a 242 bolster is the best of both worlds. Everyone's on par essentially, and a leap between 242 and 248 isn't so big that the better player couldn't win. But, the for the meticulous player who desires BiS and wants it to mean something, still can.

[Eli_Porter]

Is the underlying tone for or against a bolster increase in this thread? Do people want display their skill at the game or do people want to display their time invested? Personally, I'd rather have a display of skill on the table and leave time invested in the game for cosmetic rewards.

 

You're not gonna get to display your skill if queues aren't popping. This is an MMORPG, people care about advancing their character.

[QuiveringPotato]

people care about advancing their character.

 

not in pvp.

[Eli_Porter]

not in pvp.

 

Do you really think everyone you face in PvP only cares about proving their skill?

 

This isn't Battlefront.

[Lahandra]

Are you suggesting that people should have to put at least minimal effort into the game and not be given a free handout?! How dare you?! What about the 5 credit spammers still on pot5 or The Bastion, how will they get BiS?

 

Oh.... the horror.....

[Lahandra]

Is the underlying tone for or against a bolster increase in this thread? Do people want display their skill at the game or do people want to display their time invested? Personally, I'd rather have a display of skill on the table and leave time invested in the game for cosmetic rewards.

 

Since when is it not a display of skill to wreck a full 248 with a 238 bolstered toon??

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I'd ask whether gear is the only incentive that gets people to do content.

 

Clearly it isn't not for PVPers anyways. Somehow something kept PVPers PVPing prior to 5.0, and God knows it wasn't BIS gear.

 

PVPers don't need anymore incentive to PVP other than to kill other players.

 

I'm full BIS geared, have been for a while now, I don't play any other toons currently, and yet, I'm still PVPing. I cannot improve my character build by even one point anymore, so why am I still PVPing?

 

Because I like to fight and I like to kill people [inbetween getting my *** handed to me of course].

 

I'll certainly be happier when they introduce T5 gear, it does make it funner when you are working towards something that will improve you, but until they do introduce T5 gear, I'm still going to PVPing.

 

Raiders get fired up about Carrots on the end of the stick, hardcore PVPers could care less.

 

To say the PVPers require incentive to PVP is without precedent in this game as prior to 5.0 it was not only impossible to get BIS gear from PVP, it was impossible the get any PVE gear PVPing, which, when you think about it, makes a whole lot of sense!

Edited July 3, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Eli_Porter]

Clearly it isn't not for PVPers anyways. Somehow something kept PVPers PVPing prior to 5.0, and God knows it wasn't BIS gear.

 

PvP before 5.0 was one of the fastest ways to get entry-level PvE gear.

 

I suggest you don't lump all PvP'ers into one group, and understand that luring PvE'ers into PvP is a vitally important part of sustaining the PvP community you so much enjoy.

 

Just look at how much more popular GSF got once it received CXP and UC incentives. Look at how popular PvP was in 5.0 when it was giving the most CXP/hr (as opposed to now when FP's dwarf it).

Edited July 3, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Stellarcrusade]

People have been saying this since the dawn of SWTOR back in 2012; it's never happened, and it will never happen.

 

You do not understand, obviously. Try reading what someone posts before random response that is meaningless. Let me simplify it for you.

1.) Command System (this is new, we haven't had this since 2012).

2.) Because of Command System people who do not like pvp, will not like pvp, will only pvp for as long as they HAVE to to get gear are doing pvp. (Also, this is new, never had this in 2012). Prior to Command System, anyone who didn't want to PvP......didn't PvP.

3.) When those people are done gearing up, and most will still hate PvP, what do you think they will do? More pvp? No, of course not. So they are gone.

4.) While the system got rid of many veterans and the populations were temporarily inflated with people who hate pvp things may look good on populations reports, all of a sudden the pvp haters stop queueing...what happens to the queues and populations?

[Lahandra]

You do not understand, obviously. Try reading what someone posts before random response that is meaningless. Let me simplify it for you.

1.) Command System (this is new, we haven't had this since 2012).

2.) Because of Command System people who do not like pvp, will not like pvp, will only pvp for as long as they HAVE to to get gear are doing pvp. (Also, this is new, never had this in 2012). Prior to Command System, anyone who didn't want to PvP......didn't PvP.

3.) When those people are done gearing up, and most will still hate PvP, what do you think they will do? More pvp? No, of course not. So they are gone.

4.) While the system got rid of many veterans and the populations were temporarily inflated with people who hate pvp things may look good on populations reports, all of a sudden the pvp haters stop queueing...what happens to the queues and populations?

 

Then....even if by your assumption they will automatically hate pvp (which is a stretch, but sure, let's go with it)..... you still haven't figured in all the alts they need to gear..... So again, the process starts over. Either way, it means a bigger PVP population.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Lahandra

[alexsamma]

Then....even if by your assumption they will automatically hate pvp (which is a stretch, but sure, let's go with it)..... you still haven't figured in all the alts they need to gear..... So again, the process starts over. Either way, it means a bigger PVP population.

 

Actually it results in more people who enter pvp but generally detract from the quality of the match... which in turn leads to "real" pvpers pvping less.

 

Killing afk players (or people who are so bad/don't try that they might as well be afk) isn't fun; watching your teammates self destruct or repeatedly die over and over in in GSF isn't fun... pve players reluctantly entering pvp to farm gear does not help build the pvp community, it hurts it.

[Evolixe]

Do you really think everyone you face in PvP only cares about proving their skill?

 

This isn't Battlefront.

 

It's not about proving anyone anything, not in regs anyways.

It's about having fun. And I have more fun when gear isn't a part of anything.

 

Tough, close battles. Those are the best. You just take that away through gear disparity.

[Talon_strikes]

The last thing that helps PvP is having PvE players come in and be dead weight simply because "muh componants" or "muh conquest". They're so much worse than those who actually come in all new and give it their all. They're literally the worst. Edited July 3, 2017 by Talon_strikes