Class Changes: Arsenal Merc / Gunnery Commando

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

For a long time Mercs have had no effective DCDs vs the continued gap closers and everything else mDPS have gained over a period of time. If the class couldn't kite effectively (or at all) vs the constant stuns / gap closers and all of the shiny toys given to other classes, they effectively became a parsing target that could move slightly.

 

The problems really occurred after they gutted Merc self heals, gave classes gap closers and then subsequently gave us an inferior gap extender while also gutting our primary kiting tool (Hydraulic Overrides).

 

I read a lot of cries about Kolto Overload, they improved upon it after having previously gutted it. We never used to have to wait until 30% of HP that could be burst through before it kicked in, it used to work upon activation (and worked better than what it was gutted to). On that subject, a lot of players have seemingly poor memories.

 

Do I think that class gained a little bit too much in the way of DCDs as primarily a Merc player? Yes. Trauma Regulators, which gets complained about a lot is fine, it's tied to the cooldown on Energy Shield, and to be fair to Mercs here, it isn't their fault players can't get into their heads not to dps them while it's up and they have high HP.

 

Now the heal on the reflect? That's something I actually wouldn't mind trading with a lower CD on Hydraulic Overrides. Remove the heal, but give me back some of the mobility of the class. Rocket Out can have it's CD increased to compensate, as I personally find it less effective to use.

 

You also have to remember something when talking about the DCDs for Mercs, compared to a lot of classes, our Disciplines tree has been an utter mess up until 5.0. It's one of the few things that the combat team managed to get right for 5.0, by combining some of the less used utilities and placing them better in the tree. There are always trade offs to be made.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't want to see mercs put back to the way they were in 4.0 defensively speaking. If their DCDs than were not enough than they shouldn't have to go back to that same situation. It wouldn't be right.

 

I take the view, however, that no matter how bad a spec has been for however long it's been in bad shape, that doesn't entitle them to be compensated for those times they were by making them OP.

 

Now you can say that the DCDs really aren't that bad by siting the time honored excuse ", it isn't their fault players can't get into their heads not to dps them while it's up and they have high HP". And yeah, if you hit them than it's your own fault for them healing, but what's not your fault is having to stand there like an idiot for 6 seconds if you can't break LOS, if there isn't any cover, or you have to stay where you are because you are guarding a node, or trying to prevent enemies from planting a bomb, and let them them burst your brains out because they're invulnerable. You can't save stuns just for that, and stuns have cds so there are plenty of times people just don't have them available. Besides, decent mercs will often make you blow one prior to reflect for that express purpose. Would you be okay with giving a Carnage Marauder 6 seconds to go town on you because you couldn't attack him back? Mercs are a ranged class, even if you try to run away, if you can't break LOS run all you want, they'll still light your azz up, and after wards you'd just have to come right back at them again giving them so more time having target practice on you in the way back. Speaking from experience as a melee, I hope you will believe me when I say, not fun to get 40k Heatseekers in the azz! heh

 

Even still, I could just about deal with the reflects being kept, I definately think they are way too strong for a Ranged class, but that aside, it's more about the TR. Passive H2Fs on DPS is nothing short of a second life, and that's grossly unfair when you have other DPS specs running around with limited DCDs, lower DPS, much smaller self heals, and in one case, no self heals at all.

 

I'm just stating my opinion here, everyone is entitled to theirs, and mine is no more compelling than anyone elses. It is simply my opinion, that no DPS spec should have DCDs like that.

 

But honestly, it's a mote point because they're letting Mercs keep them, so you don't need to convince anyone they're okay. You win! heh

Edited June 23, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Gyronamics]

You can't save stuns just for that, and stuns have cds so there are plenty of times people just don't have them available. Besides, decent mercs will often make you blow one prior to reflect for that express purpose. Would you be okay with giving a Carnage Marauder 6 seconds to go town on you because you couldn't attack him back? Mercs are a ranged class, even if you try to run away, if you can't break LOS run all you want, they'll still light your azz up, and after wards you'd just have to come right back at them again giving them so more time having target practice on you in the way back. Speaking from experience as a melee, I hope you will believe me when I say, not fun to get 40k Heatseekers in the azz! heh

 

Oh I know this one.

 

This is where the Carnage Marauder pops Sabre Ward for 12s of 50% extra dodge and 25% tech/force damage reduction with the legendary utility of Blood Ward for self healing for 3% each second when taking damage and CC immunity for 6s.

 

Wait, no it could be the Carnage Marauder popping Obfuscate for 90% accuracy debuff with or without the legendary utility of Ruthless Aggressor which grants 75% tech/force resistance for 6s.

 

Changed my mind, I'll choose the classic of Carnage Marauder popping Undying Rage with the heroic utility of Undying for 6s of 99% damage reduction.

 

Or maybe leave it up to the Carnage Marauder based on what abilities he's seen the target use already.

 

The theoretical scenario is not theoretical.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Gyronamics

[TalonVII]

Ah you mean like before 5.0

 

Merc is still just as good at kiting as it was then, still self heals as good as it did back then.

 

5.0 changes happened because of how good it was at those things.

 

It was so famous for its ability to kite and keep itself up that it was granted one hard and two soft anti focus abilities and three different and powerful healing boosts. That was just how good the kiting and survival abilities of merc were before 5.0

 

And did anyone complain about that? NOPE! All it needed 5.0 was a dps buff, which it got. Those DCDs were desperately needed on POWERTECHS. Especially after the way they got gutted.

 

Someone tried to say if PTs got those DCDs they would he OP in another thread. No they wouldn't. Considering their DPS is so low, those DCDs might actually live long enough go actually tank some damage and dish it out.

 

Problem with the buffs the mercs got they had the best damage, self heals, range AND the DCDs that allowed them to tank better than the tanks themselves.

 

That's the problem with mercs, thy got too much of a good thing.

[Gyronamics]

And did anyone complain about that? NOPE!

 

This is 24 carat *********** gold.

 

Mercs have not wanted more damage ever, all those changes happened from developer fiddling.

 

There have been demands for DCDs that were not total garbage for pvp since pretty much the start of the game.

 

Why do you think the 2pc set bonus for merc is -15s on the shield CD.

 

Each subforum was asked what they wanted for their set bonuses a while back and mercs were not after damage. That was all the developers wanted to give at the time though.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Gyronamics

[Hoppinswtor]

long post

carnage isn't harder to play than arsenal in terms of rotation optimization....anni, yes. carnage, no. in my first carnage game in 3.x, I did more dps than I did as arsenal in that entire patch. good melee will have a time on target close to ranged...and in some cases, if the enemy team LOSes a lot, the time on target could very well be near identical. it all depends on the situation and the skill of the melee players.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

[Whailor]

What the hell, you add THREE nerfs in one smack to Boltstorm? First reduce the damage, then also take away damage bonus it received from a passive ability and then also increase the cost?I've been playing commando since beta, Gunnery commando specifically since that's what the commando and cannon is all about - plant your feet firmly down and then spray plasma in the face of incoming enemy. Not some silly squirty DoT stuff. And throughout the whole darn game BW's "idea" for DPS of this class/skill combo is to have it lag behind the others. Even between the abilities within the class itself it lagged behind, because some bookworm accountant in BW decided that the "squirty" skilltree is supposed to do more damage. Then finally over some years the class and that skill tree receives some bonuses which bring it close to other ranged DPS class and now BW's planning to screw this up again. Any "pure DPS" class outperformed my commando easily, assuming they actually knew how to play the class, but at the very least my commando wasn't a dead weight anymore.

 

I like Star Wars but Bioware is messing this game up just as it is messing up every other game they're doing lately. Most of my friends already left because they can't stand this nonsense and I am pretty much last "die hard" nutcase left, even then I am only playing on OPS and through the new content when it's added, because the game is annoying. At least the OPS were fun to do with my commando. And now BW with their stupid "our target is to make this dead weight class again" goals is about to screw things up again. Soon there's pretty much no point to play this game, any fun it might have in it is being killed off by BW..

Edited June 23, 2017 by Whailor

[TalonVII]

This is 24 carat *********** gold.

 

Mercs have not wanted more damage ever, all those changes happened from developer fiddling.

 

There have been demands for DCDs that were not total garbage for pvp since pretty much the start of the game.

 

Why do you think the 2pc set bonus for merc is -15s on the shield CD.

 

Each subforum was asked what they wanted for their set bonuses a while back and mercs were not after damage. That was all the developers wanted to give at the time though.

But wanted better defenses than the class that is SUPPOSED TO HAVE BETTER DEFENSES?

 

The and you said my post was gold? Look in the mirror.

[Transcendent]

Your memories are oddly rosy about it.

 

It was the trigger on activation part that gives me rosy memories.

 

The and you said my post was gold? Look in the mirror.

 

To be fair, you did say (and I'll quote)

 

And here's a question? WHY DOES A MERC NEED THAT? Job of a merc is to kite. Use abilites to stop a guy in his tracks then run.

 

Here in lays the crux of the problem, the class couldn't kite effectively in an arena, los perhaps, but not really kite due to abilities already given to other classes. I'll use Carnage Marauder as a small example of what a rDPS player faces in terms of mobility restrictions etc.

 

• Force Charge - Immobilises target for 2s.
  
• Force Choke - 4s stun.
  
• Intimidating Roar - 6s stun.
  
• Crippling Slash - 10s 50% slow.
  
• Dual Saber Throw - 6s 50% slow.
  
• Gore - 1.5s of preventing use of high mobility actions and escapes.
  

 

With the options to spec into (amongst other things....)

• Overwhelm - Ravage immobilises target for 3s.
  
• Interceptor - Force Charge, Force Rend, Devastating Blast and Obliterate 6s 50% slow.
  
• Maiming Reach - Increase range of Crippling Slash, immobilises targets for 3s (can be applied every 10s).
  

 

So how exactly is any rDPS meant to kite effectively vs all of those slows / roots? Rocket Out certainly didn't help the class (and to be useful you have to spend a point in the Legendary tier which is better used elsewhere), which also gained the class an increase in the CD of the more useful ability for kiting, namely Hydraulic Overrides. Sure we could punt them away briefly or attempt to stun them briefly, or root them briefly. However there were already options to counter those moves readily available, so those are a moot point.

 

Adding extra DPS to the class simply wasn't ever going to be the solution to the inherent flaws in an rDPS class that had poor DCDs that had been weakened over a period of balance passes, a dead rDPS doesn't do any dps. Being the weak link in an arena, and the focus first target essentially made the class unplayable by a large number of players, hence why the class was given additional DCDs.

 

Yes absolutely the class needs some of the damage toned down now that it survives longer, I don't think any reasonable Merc or Mando would disagree. The concern I primarily have is if the combat team also decides to tone down the DCDs newly provided, because essentially that'll be a double nerf to the dps of the class (if it doesn't survive then it naturally does less damage).

Edited June 23, 2017 by Transcendent

[XhrisShan]

Quoting myself from an earlier thread.

Arsenal/Gunnery has levelling issues: revert the change in Level at which Barrage/Curtain of Fire is granted. That is one of the key passives of that Discipline and characters will suffer from resource management issues until they get it.

[XhrisShan]

Moreover, if you were to reduce the cooldowns of Priming Shot/Vortex Bolt to 15 seconds (with a corresponding damage decrease, of course) and Barrage/Curtain of Fire to 7 or 7.5 seconds, that'd allow for a perfect 10-GCD rotation (pretty please).

Just fyi

Edited June 23, 2017 by XhrisShan
Accuracy

[Gyronamics]

But wanted better defenses than the class that is SUPPOSED TO HAVE BETTER DEFENSES?

 

The and you said my post was gold? Look in the mirror.

 

Again you're talking from a position of ignorance.

 

You didn't know about mercs never asking for more damage (at least no one who could be taken seriously) and now you're forcing me to tell you that players had no say in what the developers finally did for merc defences.

 

What is this ranting as if players have control over what the developers actually implement, get a grip.

 

It took years of players saying that merc dcds sucked real hard for pvp and then changes arrive out of the blue.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Gyronamics

[TalonVII]

It was the trigger on activation part that gives me rosy memories.

 

 

 

To be fair, you did say (and I'll quote)

 

 

 

Here in lays the crux of the problem, the class couldn't kite effectively in an arena, los perhaps, but not really kite due to abilities already given to other classes. I'll use Carnage Marauder as a small example of what a rDPS player faces in terms of mobility restrictions etc.

 

• Force Charge - Immobilises target for 2s.
  
• Force Choke - 4s stun.
  
• Intimidating Roar - 6s stun.
  
• Crippling Slash - 10s 50% slow.
  
• Dual Saber Throw - 6s 50% slow.
  
• Gore - 1.5s of preventing use of high mobility actions and escapes.
  

 

With the options to spec into (amongst other things....)

• Overwhelm - Ravage immobilises target for 3s.
  
• Interceptor - Force Charge, Force Rend, Devastating Blast and Obliterate 6s 50% slow.
  
• Maiming Reach - Increase range of Crippling Slash, immobilises targets for 3s (can be applied every 10s).
  

 

So how exactly is any rDPS meant to kite effectively vs all of those slows / roots? Rocket Out certainly didn't help the class (and to be useful you have to spend a point in the Legendary tier which is better used elsewhere), which also gained the class an increase in the CD of the more useful ability for kiting, namely Hydraulic Overrides. Sure we could punt them away briefly or attempt to stun them briefly, or root them briefly. However there were already options to counter those moves readily available, so those are a moot point.

 

Adding extra DPS to the class simply wasn't ever going to be the solution to the inherent flaws in an rDPS class that had poor DCDs that had been weakened over a period of balance passes, a dead rDPS doesn't do any dps. Being the weak link in an arena, and the focus first target essentially made the class unplayable by a large number of players, hence why the class was given additional DCDs.

 

Yes absolutely the class needs some of the damage toned down now that it survives longer, I don't think any reasonable Merc or Mando would disagree. The concern I primarily have is if the combat team also decides to tone down the DCDs newly provided, because essentially that'll be a double nerf to the dps of the class (if it doesn't survive then it naturally does less damage).

 

Then they need more abilites to ESCAPE with, not just "I'm going to out tank your damage, while not being a tank, then kill you."

 

I'll repeat it again. THAT IS BROKEN. When a non tank class can tank better than the actual tank, that's a major problem.

[TalonVII]

Again you're talking from a position of ignorance.

 

You didn't know about mercs never asking for more damage (at least no one who could be taken seriously) and now you're forcing me to tell you that players had no say in what the developers finally did for merc defences.

 

What is this ranting as if players have control over what the developers actually implement, get a grip.

 

It took years of players saying that merc dcds sucked real hard for pvp and then changes arrive out of the blue.

 

I'll repeat myself YET AGAIN. Why does a DPS/heal have better tanking abilities than the tanks do? Like I said, they should of been either given better escape tools or better self heals, not the very abilities said PT desperately needs to be able to actually tank.

 

Sorry the ability to out tank the actual tanks is a MAJOR PROBLEM.

[LordTurin]

Yes absolutely the class needs some of the damage toned down now that it survives longer, I don't think any reasonable Merc or Mando would disagree. The concern I primarily have is if the combat team also decides to tone down the DCDs newly provided, because essentially that'll be a double nerf to the dps of the class (if it doesn't survive then it naturally does less damage).

 

I think that this is the whole idea behind doing damage now, utilities later. Mercs and sorc dps have about the same DCDs, so I think that a lot of the "merc too stronk" complaints will go away once they start hitting as hard as sorc's do. At most, at that point mercs will get a small defense nerf (my prediction, 2x kolto overload utility moves over to the pt tree). If it is still an issue at that point, they will obviously have to rework more, but I don't think mercs will be op at all after the damage nerf goes through, dcds included.

[Gyronamics]

my prediction, 2x kolto overload utility moves over to the pt tree

 

I reckon if you tried you could have KO up every 30s. Boosted KO runs for 10 seconds of healing.

 

You do know about that interaction with KO on PT don't you?

[stoopicus]

I reckon if you tried you could have KO up every 30s. Boosted KO runs for 10 seconds of healing.

 

You do know about that interaction with KO on PT don't you?

 

Nevertheless, I bet that's what will happen too. Either that or TR.

 

My prediction is mercs are going to be kicked into the sh*tter again for a couple years, which will be effectively the remaining lifetime of the game, when the utilities rebalance happens. I was wanting mercs to get nerfed as much as anyone, but this damage nerf plus the inevitable utilities nerf is going to be Sorc City.

Edited June 24, 2017 by stoopicus

[LordTurin]

I reckon if you tried you could have KO up every 30s. Boosted KO runs for 10 seconds of healing.

 

You do know about that interaction with KO on PT don't you?

 

Not quite sure what you are talking about actually?

[stoopicus]

Not quite sure what you are talking about actually?

 

I think he's talking about the Dong Cleave.

[digimass]

ya, this is a ***** balance because of people crying about merc. mercs sucked so hard after 3.0 because of all the crying during 2. Merc is a Premiere dps class with super burst, wich is necessary for some ops/bosses.. they aren't balancing bosses now are they? This effects overall gameplay because you think the base dps is too high. well then what were mercs suppose to do. all these nerfed didn't touch any of the 3 or 4 lives mercs get. Messing with dps is not the answer

 

wall of text avoidied.

 

Bad changes, the biggest one of all is barrage/blazing bolts. this is part of your iconic system for merc dps that you gave us, and taking it away is your answer for fixing something else you may have overdone that makes the pvpers cry. I remember when mercs didn't have interrupts, but you had to go and make all the classes balanced... good job so far.

 

Find a better way to fix ur supposed fix, before we're stuck another 2-3 years because pvp haters nerfed merc back to the worse ranged of pve... you guys do not know what you are doing.

[LordTurin]

Not quite sure what you are talking about actually?

 

Ahhh found it, Automated Defenses on pyrotech. I've never touched that spec.

 

Hmm you have a good point, I didn't know that was a thing so it would be a little unbalanced. Maybe give KO to tactics and TR to pyro if they could swing it.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

carnage isn't harder to play than arsenal in terms of rotation optimization....anni, yes. carnage, no. in my first carnage game in 3.x, I did more dps than I did as arsenal in that entire patch. good melee will have a time on target close to ranged...and in some cases, if the enemy team LOSes a lot, the time on target could very well be near identical. it all depends on the situation and the skill of the melee players.

 

A lot of things are situational, and that will always effect how smoothly things will go, and obvioualy skill level plays a large part in performance. My experience perhaps was just different than yours. Also, in terms of damage, different class make ups and DPS values weren't the same in each meta, some metas were better for melee than others, and the same holds for ranged.

 

Regarding carnage, I find [and this is just my experience] it less forgiving of mistakes than Anni. Anni can be a bit complicated [certainly more than carnage] , keeping all the bleeds up seemlessly and such and because of the RNG still present, while minimal, different outcomes may come from any opener. Can't always know how many focus points you'll get back from DoTs and such. There is an ideal opener, but that often you are not cycling an exact repeated rotation is kinda the norm.

 

Carnage has a very definitive ideal rotation, and loss of procs can have a dramatic effect on DPS output. I for one like knowing what I should be doing next [circumstances allowing of course]. In 5.0 the rotation became more difficult than in any previous metas with the inclusion of a new attack into the rotation [Gore] and that you were no longer clipping Ravage at .03 seconds [this was an improvement tho]. The new attack made resources management a lot harder, and one mistakes can make your Ferocity window less effective by way of not having enough resources to fit the appropriate hard hitting attacks into it. Before you were only going for three attacks into the Beserk window, since 5.0 now its 4 attacks in the same 3 second time frame, so that speeds things up considerable and makes a timing/resource mistake more significant. While I love the new attack, it was something of an ability bloat [although there are DPS rewards for it] and it makes the rotation more intense and more needing of exactitude. Priorities have to be the order of the day of course because rotations will get messed with it.

Many Carnage Marauders weren't happy about the added attack and the higher resource management issues that came with it because mistakes hurt more than they use too. I found the suggested rotation not optimal as it caters a bit more to resources at the expense of a bit of DPS potentially and it didn't feel like the flow carnage use to feel like so I made some small revisions and found it a bit better for my style of play. I know of a few other Carnage marauders who made some revisions of their own as well due to the resource issues.

 

- That said, not everyone will see it the same way , and experiences may vary between people of course.

 

While I disagree about the time on target being comparable between ranged and melee, good team communication, established strategies, experience and the greater skill that may come from it certainly can effect uptimes. Good group cohesion can overcome many obstacles for sure.

Edited June 24, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Sordahanpl]

In my opinion this nerf attacks mercs from wrong side. The biggest problem is their deffence. You can`t take so many dmg bonuses from DPS spec. It just don`t make any sense. Mercenary will become one of the worst dps in PVE... again... Nerf Trauma and maybe bonus dmg from Tarcer Missale, 5% form Blazing Bolts are ok too, i guess... but leave rest alone please.

[Iffyluse]

Reminds me of Marksmanship nerf

[RikuvonDrake]

In my opinion this nerf attacks mercs from wrong side. The biggest problem is their deffence. You can`t take so many dmg bonuses from DPS spec. It just don`t make any sense. Mercenary will become one of the worst dps in PVE... again... Nerf Trauma and maybe bonus dmg from Tarcer Missale, 5% form Blazing Bolts are ok too, i guess... but leave rest alone please.

 

But they can, they should have done it earlier but at least now it's done, Arsenal as never meant to be the go-to-sustain-spec, it's a burst spec. It will be bad for sustained fights in PvE, sure, but that is also the point, I get that it's an easy spec and you don't need much skill to pull high numbers, but that isn't good for the game. If you want an insta-win button there are many other games, swtor isn't designed around that. Arsenal nerf to sustain is great, the burst is still very high as it should.

 

Reminds me of Marksmanship nerf

 

This is a great point, just like Arsenal, Marksman is another very easy spec to play with amazing burst, it didn't make any sense when it additionally had the highest burst earlier on and the nerfs to Marksman, just as the nerfs to Arsenal, are perfectly viable from a gameplay perspective.

[Gyronamics]

Sustained changes are frankly whatever.

 

Weakening burst and resources on a class that has always been burst and easy rotation.

 

Well that's beyond fitting a dps target and into trying to get people off the spec by making what it's always been used for less viable.

 

Plenty of reason to be unhappy.