Class Changes (Sorc/Sage healing) - Perception of a problem, not a real problem.

[Stellarcrusade]

I'm not sure people realize the real situation with Sage/Sorcs, and for this reason I expect them to make the situation with those classes DISASTEROUS. Let me explain:

 

IN 4.0:

- Sorcs were fine in DPS or HEALS. All 3 specs were fine, not too powerful, not too weak. I played both but prefered DPS.

 

WHAT CHANGED IN 5.0?

- DPS Sorcs were completely nerfed, not worth playing AT ALL. Really 2 of the 3 specs were killed.

- HEAL Sorcs were made slightly less powerful.

- Classes like MERCS were given massive survivability, self heals and protections.

 

WHAT PLAYERS DID TO ADAPT:

- Well, DPS Sorcs had a choice, delete the character or swap specs to healing. Healing sorcs had a very minor adjustment to the minor nerf.

 

PERCEPTION OF A PROBLEM, NOT A REAL PROBLEM:

- Why does it seem hard to kill people in an 8v8 setting now? Its not because Sage healers are too powerful, its because:

1.) MERC Healers are very good now

2.) MERC DPS can heal themselves which makes Sages able to spread healing around MUCH better.

3.) Every war has 7 MERCs in it.

4.) All sorcs had to convert to healing, creating a higher percentage of healing sorcs in the game than is normal.

 

What was the net result, well, 5.0 made all sorcs have to convert to healing, and really made the healing sorc less needed. They totally nerfed 2 of the specs and made the 3rd spec much less useful in PVP.

 

SO IF WE ARE DUMB AND NERF SORC HEALING EVEN THOUGH THATS NOT THE PROBLEM?

- That removes the last viable spec for sorcs. And a very large portion of the playerbase may have to just delete their main character, and move on to another game. I am being very serious here, this is very important. Sorcs spent months with the terrible command system getting the character geared, so it will be too daunting just to roll up a different class at this point.

 

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE INSTEAD:

- Simply bring back sorc DPS, and lessen the MERC survivability/healing. That will mean less mercs will play, healers will have a greater role, and some healers will spec back to a more fun DPS spec.

- For the above to work best: SUGGESTION: Important we give a feature such that when a 70 switches specs their set bonuses follow. Because the current command system pretty much prevents any spec changes, its not like people are going to play 2000 years to gear up one spec, then switch to the other one and spend another 2000 years to get the top level set bonuses again.

[Gallandaeus]

We're more likely to see a mega server than actually have Lightning/Madness buffed. Not against it, but I'm realistic about the possibility of it happening, too.

[Storm-Cutter]

Because the current command system pretty much prevents any spec changes, its not like people are going to play 2000 years to gear up one spec, then switch to the other one and spend another 2000 years to get the top level set bonuses again.

 

Will this game be around in 4,000 years?

 

I'm fairly sure I geared up my main in a few months.... How often do you complete a warzone? every few years...... If so, calm down and think about it.

 

An individual healer isn't much of a threat, but stacking healing classes with all the self heals and defensive CDs from other classes is making Warzones a challenge, since with more heals and fewer DPS classes, a lot fewer deaths occur - and stacking heals on your own team isn't helping to burn down the enemy- only making WZ boring and predictable - and first to 2-cap wins, instead of the titanic node flipping, down to the wire- nail biting finish we saw previously.

 

But I have to agree that the CXP gearing was monumentally stupid from the start - a lot of players went from several viable geared-up PvP characters to 1 or at a stretch 2 - even if the gear gap isn't that insurmountable. - Perception counts for a lot in WZ. And it's easy to blame one's inferior gear if you lose or have a rough time.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Storm-Cutter

[SentinelThain]

My telekinetic Sage hits with the power of a wet noodle,sure I like playing him but in ops or even fp it just takes so much longer to take stuff down than with my Slinger.

They definitely need a good buff to their dps because atm thet are just not viable unless specced for heals.

[Zolxtren]

My telekinetic Sage hits with the power of a wet noodle,sure I like playing him but in ops or even fp it just takes so much longer to take stuff down than with my Slinger.

They definitely need a good buff to their dps because atm thet are just not viable unless specced for heals.

 

 

Im a lighting sorc and this is true in pvp also.

 

Your entire rotation with procs will do as much dmg as a few instant abilities of other clasess.

 

In the opening you barely can move peoples healthbar while other clases take down a good 50% of your hp the momment they jump on you....

 

Also in flashpoints my Tank geared jungernaut hits as hard with abilities as a lightingsorc...... Lighting\tele is utterly underpowered.. .

[Glocko]

Ummmm no..... Nerf the sorc heals, take away their phase walk, reduce guarded tank radius, so tired of guarded sorcs talking trash..... It never fails we all experience it Guarded sorc heals with a premades of snipers/mercs telling everyone how great they are...... They need a huge nerf and if these ppl leave all the better, maybe all those who have left will come back

[Bonzenaattori]

- For the above to work best: SUGGESTION: Important we give a feature such that when a 70 switches specs their set bonuses follow. Because the current command system pretty much prevents any spec changes, its not like people are going to play 2000 years to gear up one spec, then switch to the other one and spend another 2000 years to get the top level set bonuses again.

 

This is the only thing you said that I think is respectible

 

And the funny part is, it's not even relative to Sorc/Sage healing ironically enough

 

All healing specs are pretty broken imo, with interrupt nerf from back in the day, and various other changes over time, the spec is way too noob friendly. and the initiative to protect healers is so abundant, i dont even see healers kite anymore.

Almost anybody outside of a premade will never care to cc/manage enemy healers and melees barely have any pressure anymore.

I think all 3 healer specs need to be nerfed, but it will never happen so pointless to talk about it

Edited June 9, 2017 by Bonzenaattori

[ivanhedgehog]

Ummmm no..... Nerf the sorc heals, take away their phase walk, reduce guarded tank radius, so tired of guarded sorcs talking trash..... It never fails we all experience it Guarded sorc heals with a premades of snipers/mercs telling everyone how great they are...... They need a huge nerf and if these ppl leave all the better, maybe all those who have left will come back

 

as long as they remove merc reflects and electro net. sniper shields and high dps abilities.

 

 

no, that would be a disaster, just like nerfing a class because they talk back to you in a warzone? seriously, did you run and tell your mommy they were mean to you? you judge a class based on them being supported by their team mates? I really hope the devs dont buff/nerf based on some pvp loser getting his feelings hurt by trash talk. do it based on actual metrics and playtesting.

[Aeneas_Falco]

PERCEPTION OF A PROBLEM, NOT A REAL PROBLEM:

- Why does it seem hard to kill people in an 8v8 setting now? Its not because Sage healers are too powerful, its because:

1.) MERC Healers are very good now

2.) MERC DPS can heal themselves which makes Sages able to spread healing around MUCH better.

3.) Every war has 7 MERCs in it.

4.) All sorcs had to convert to healing, creating a higher percentage of healing sorcs in the game than is normal.

 

So much that.

 

Sorc & Sage healers are mostly fine. I'm not saying they don't need any adjustment, but they certainly don't need to be nerfed into oblivion. The real issue is that you're getting more Sorc and Sage healers in warzones than previously because the DPS specs for those classes were nerfed into oblivion. The DPS Sorcs and Sages that didn't jump to the new FOTM (Mercs) switched to the last viable spec for their class, which is healing. If you want to play a Sorc or Sage in PVP you have to be a healer, unless you don't mind your character being made of glass and only doing a fraction of the damage other DPS classes can dish out.

 

Fixing the DPS specs for those classes would go a long way towards solving some of the problems with warzones. Most of those Sages & Sorcs would go back to DPS, leaving only those who've been spec'd for healing all along. It would immediately reduce the number of Sage & Sorc healers in the queue.

 

Unfortunately since only the healing specs have been mentioned for getting an upcoming adjustment, I think the Sorc and Sage classes may end up totally broken, without a single viable spec for either PVP or Ops. Giving how hard the DPS specs were nerfed it doesn't exactly lend confidence that the adjustment to Sage and Sorc healing will be minor.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Aeneas_Falco

[Zolxtren]

So much that.

 

Sorc & Sage healers are mostly fine. I'm not saying they don't need any adjustment, but they certainly don't need to be nerfed into oblivion. The real issue is that you're getting more Sorc and Sage healers in warzones than previously because the DPS specs for those classes were nerfed into oblivion. The DPS Sorcs and Sages that didn't jump to the new FOTM (Mercs) switched to the last viable spec for their class, which is healing. If you want to play a Sorc or Sage in PVP you have to be a healer, unless you don't mind your character being made of glass and only doing a fraction of the damage other DPS classes can dish out.

 

Fixing the DPS specs for those classes would go a long way towards solving some of the problems with warzones. Most of those Sages & Sorcs would go back to DPS, leaving only those who've been spec'd for healing all along. It would immediately reduce the number of Sage & Sorc healers in the queue.

 

Unfortunately since only the healing specs have been mentioned for getting an upcoming adjustment, I think the Sorc and Sage classes may end up totally broken, without a single viable spec for either PVP or Ops. Giving how hard the DPS specs were nerfed it doesn't exactly lend confidence that the adjustment to Sage and Sorc healing will be minor.

 

reason i lfet my sorc and gone back to my Jugg

 

i lost all hope when i found out that the devs did not even know how bad state DPS sorcs are in when they released the balance roadmap lol it wasnt even on the damn list....

and they are the ones doing balancing ? bahahahaha yeah forget it......

[Johrun]

Will this game be around in 4,000 years?

 

I hope so!

 

But I have to agree that the CXP gearing was monumentally stupid from the start - a lot of players went from several viable geared-up PvP characters to 1 or at a stretch 2 - even if the gear gap isn't that insurmountable. - Perception counts for a lot in WZ. And it's easy to blame one's inferior gear if you lose or have a rough time.

 

CXP is a good idea to engage players more, but the rate at which we get CXP should be higher than it is now. It's still an obvious grind.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Johrun

[DarthEnrique]

So much that.

 

Sorc & Sage healers are mostly fine. I'm not saying they don't need any adjustment, but they certainly don't need to be nerfed into oblivion. The real issue is that you're getting more Sorc and Sage healers in warzones than previously because the DPS specs for those classes were nerfed into oblivion. The DPS Sorcs and Sages that didn't jump to the new FOTM (Mercs) switched to the last viable spec for their class, which is healing. If you want to play a Sorc or Sage in PVP you have to be a healer, unless you don't mind your character being made of glass and only doing a fraction of the damage other DPS classes can dish out.

 

Fixing the DPS specs for those classes would go a long way towards solving some of the problems with warzones. Most of those Sages & Sorcs would go back to DPS, leaving only those who've been spec'd for healing all along. It would immediately reduce the number of Sage & Sorc healers in the queue.

 

Unfortunately since only the healing specs have been mentioned for getting an upcoming adjustment, I think the Sorc and Sage classes may end up totally broken, without a single viable spec for either PVP or Ops. Giving how hard the DPS specs were nerfed it doesn't exactly lend confidence that the adjustment to Sage and Sorc healing will be minor.

Not to mention Sorcerers/Sages are squishy as all get out.

[DarthEnrique]

Im a lighting sorc and this is true in pvp also.

 

Your entire rotation with procs will do as much dmg as a few instant abilities of other clasess.

 

In the opening you barely can move peoples healthbar while other clases take down a good 50% of your hp the momment they jump on you....

 

Also in flashpoints my Tank geared jungernaut hits as hard with abilities as a lightingsorc...... Lighting\tele is utterly underpowered.. .

That it is lightning Sorcerers hit less than any other spec that I've seen, you spend half your time struggling to stay alive as Sorcerers are very squishy to begin with, with Madness Sorcerers only a little bit more of challenge due to them having more healing abilities than a lightning Sorcerers.

[mitchsts]

i don't think they would be a problem if there wasn't always 3 to 6 healers per warzone.

[ivanhedgehog]

i don't think they would be a problem if there wasn't always 3 to 6 healers per warzone.

 

yet the pvpers on fleet tonight were telling us they only saw 1 healer in 20 matches......

[sumquy]

...but, but don't nerf MY class! nerf those other guys! lol. the plain truth is that sorc/sage heals are a problem. they outperform merc heals, and op heals is somewhere on the level of what a dps sorc does. they need to be nerfed down to about what a merc can do and ops brought up to the same. the better solution would be to take away one of their 3 cc/escapes (they should never have gotten phase walk), but i don't see that as likely, so a nerf is what we are left with. Edited June 11, 2017 by sumquy

[tyrningada]

IN 4.0:

- Sorcs were fine in DPS or HEALS. All 3 specs were fine, not too powerful, not too weak. I played both but prefered DPS.

 

No they were not fine in 4.0. They were extremly OP both in dps and heal. In 4.5 patch sorc was nerfed, dps seemed fine after nerf but heal was still OP.

 

1.) MERC Healers are very good now

No, they are not good healers. Mercs have strong dcds but too low hps compering to other classes.

 

I do agree that sorc dps needs buff for both disciplines. But heal needs to be reworked. Roaming mend with 3 cc escapes make this class unkillable.

You don't want this class to be nerfed because you play it. Try other healing classes and then you will see why sroc is OP. Sorc heal is also very easy spec to play. Too easy. Even new players to pvp can make decent numbers in warzone when playing sroc heal.

[AllisonLightning]

...but, but don't nerf MY class! nerf those other guys! lol. the plain truth is that sorc/sage heals are a problem. they outperform merc heals, and op heals is somewhere on the level of what a dps sorc does. they need to be nerfed down to about what a merc can do and ops brought up to the same. the better solution would be to take away one of their 3 cc/escapes (they should never have gotten phase walk), but i don't see that as likely, so a nerf is what we are left with.

 

I just had really good numbers on Raptus on my Operative heals, the only weakness I'll claim apart from interrupts (Kolto Wave versus instantly placed and doesn't need to be channelled for the healing duration) is burst. My Operative/Scoundrel healers need a touch extra burst without any other changes, I love them and when your class is the least nerf it of the healing trifecta, it usually means something. The CCs aren't bad themselves, otherwise DPS sorcs wouldn't be in such a bad way outside of unranked warzones (they are completely viable in objective matches for versatility unless you want to number chase- then go for another class) where all those defensives/self heals come at a price that just can't be afforded when it kills an already mediocre DPS (they tank your force as well)- the issue is ease of cast/energy management for Sorcerer/Sages compounded by when the health cap rose.

 

It's what happens when you don't fix the problem properly which is why Bioware should look to past a heal nerf and look at how they work, and how to make them less of a cheese heal spec.

 

That said, bad DPS need to stop whining- a good DPS is absolutely capable of keeping a healer tied up saving themselves or dead and I hate to break it to you but the unkillable Sorc/Sage healers are more often a DPS that like the idiot I was healing right before GF reset, could barely take an inch off the health of an enemy DPS which didn't even have to self heal but was getting globalled by one person to the point the enemy DPS got bored and went for me... there's a reason I sometimes stop healing and CC/ damage... when my terrible healer DPS matches the idiot I'm trying to keep alive because his opponent knows what a rotation is. Any good Sorc/Sage healer knows their class needs to get fixed but bad DPS will still be struggling to kill them, regardless.

[ivanhedgehog]

No they were not fine in 4.0. They were extremly OP both in dps and heal. In 4.5 patch sorc was nerfed, dps seemed fine after nerf but heal was still OP.

 

 

No, they are not good healers. Mercs have strong dcds but too low hps compering to other classes.

 

I do agree that sorc dps needs buff for both disciplines. But heal needs to be reworked. Roaming mend with 3 cc escapes make this class unkillable.

You don't want this class to be nerfed because you play it. Try other healing classes and then you will see why sroc is OP. Sorc heal is also very easy spec to play. Too easy. Even new players to pvp can make decent numbers in warzone when playing sroc heal.

 

if you nerf sorc heals you have to take away defense and ccs from mercs. merc healers last a lot longer than sorcs, so they do more total heals. Unless they are facing bad players that dont focus down the healers.

[AllisonLightning]

if you nerf sorc heals you have to take away defense and ccs from mercs. merc healers last a lot longer than sorcs, so they do more total heals. Unless they are facing bad players that dont focus down the healers.

 

You're wrong. The target priority list on healers goes Operative> Mercenary> Sorcerer- a Merc of equal skill and ability will go down before a Sorc does now and that's just facts, if you as a sorc healer are dying before a merc healer, it's a you problem because even with a giant reflect bubble and a heal to full treasure chest- Merc healers will go down before a Sorc healer, they are the least mobile healer, they needed the DCDs and Sorc/Sage is a 'more' tanklike healer but with mobility.

[Celise]

sorc healers pre-5.0 were just ridiclous to deal with, plus snipers, that just made things even worse.

 

sorc healers post-5.0 is still just as overpowering if not more so, trying to kill a healer in pvp is nigh impossible, especialyl since they can heal themselves quickly and still deal enough control effects on others.

 

it's a big problem, perceptive or not.

[ivanhedgehog]

sorc healers pre-5.0 were just ridiclous to deal with, plus snipers, that just made things even worse.

 

sorc healers post-5.0 is still just as overpowering if not more so, trying to kill a healer in pvp is nigh impossible, especialyl since they can heal themselves quickly and still deal enough control effects on others.

 

it's a big problem, perceptive or not.

 

of course they can heal themselves, thats why they are healers. use interupts, ccs etc. they have little damage, when was the last time one killed you?

[Ramalina]

I just had really good numbers on Raptus on my Operative heals, the only weakness I'll claim apart from interrupts (Kolto Wave versus instantly placed and doesn't need to be channelled for the healing duration) is burst. My Operative/Scoundrel healers need a touch extra burst without any other changes, I love them and when your class is the least nerf it of the healing trifecta, it usually means something. The CCs aren't bad themselves, otherwise DPS sorcs wouldn't be in such a bad way outside of unranked warzones (they are completely viable in objective matches for versatility unless you want to number chase- then go for another class) where all those defensives/self heals come at a price that just can't be afforded when it kills an already mediocre DPS (they tank your force as well)- the issue is ease of cast/energy management for Sorcerer/Sages compounded by when the health cap rose.

 

It's what happens when you don't fix the problem properly which is why Bioware should look to past a heal nerf and look at how they work, and how to make them less of a cheese heal spec.

 

So the changes that brought all of this about were:

 

Force regen no longer costs health - A good change in PvP and PvE. It did rather suck to have your health pool suffering because other people were standing in the stupid and refusing to move.

 

Core healing abilities changed from hardcast/stationary channel single target to mobile Auto-muti-target, instant HOT, and mobile channel. - On the whole this was fairly good given that mobility was being emphasized in PvE at the time, and Sages were stuck standing still for Healing Trance and Deliverance casts (I had that style of turret healing so ingrained that I still sometimes have to remind myself that HT can be channeled on the run). Not to mention that it helps a squishy class that wants to kite a great deal when they can do their job at a full tilt run.

 

Mobile heal costs were reduced, and healing done was increased. This is sort of a big one for PvP. There used to be a link between being stationary and efficiency and output. Breaking the link to output, was on the whole a good idea. A kiting class needs to work on the run. Breaking the link to efficiency went too far. Not needing to stop for a moment to put out a big heal is important in PvE and PvP. However, there's really no reason why long term efficiency shouldn't motivate standing still and casting a few big interruptible heals. Basically the two weaknesses of classic style sage healing: Stand still for efficiency, and stand still for max HPS, both got eliminated.

 

Extra escapes were added. This is partly a matter of how they changed Healing specs and DPS specs differently. By making the bulk of their healing mobile and cheap, Seer/Corruption basically got 2 to 3 escapes, as there is no reason to stand still for your channeled heal, your long cast heal, or your fixed AOE heal. DPS specs got some additional mobility, but they didn't get, "do 95% of what you need to do, and do it really well, at a full tilt run." This creates a bit of a differential between the specs. DPS is encouraged to still turret a bit, and even when they do performance is mediocre, while Healing specs can run along giggling as they sprinkle green flytext all over everyone's screens. Yes, once we had to stop and cast things that would always get interrupted and tank our HPS and our regen, but that's very much a thing of the past. So basically, healing specs got the "works while kiting" that all sages needed plus a whole bunch of high potency survival tools, while the DPS specs got a whole bunch of survival tools instead of the "works while kiting" that they needed. Sure, they don't have to turret as much as they used to, but the DPS specs didn't see the shift of output to mobile abilities that the healing spec did.

 

This is sort of a big issue balance wise, because as long as there's a strong disparity between how well the DPS and Heal specs work while on the move, tinkering with survivability will always mess up some of the specs in a major way.

 

 

 

Force sink got plugged up. Aside from the health vs force tradeoff and forced turreting, there was in theory Benevolence. A short cast (so theoretically less interruptible) very inefficient heal. Of course, it was never really that big of a heal, so most healers tried to avoid using it, and even under pressure when in theory you "wanted" Benevolence, there were usually better options. For a force sink like that to really work, it has to be sufficiently awesome so that the healer is willing to trade outrageous burst heal for the 30 seconds following of "OMG, I'm totally out of force and I can't cast $*it." Benevolence was never really awesome enough to be worth using, but now? Now it comes as an instant cast free proc, and there's still almost never a situation where you really want it unless there's nothing better to do. A force sink works when the healer who is rationally evaluating the situation feels that trading a strained force pool in the near future is worth BEEEG FREAKING HEALS NOW!!!.

For this to work the sink has to have amazing output, sustained and burst heals from other abilities have to not quite cut it under extreme pressure, and force regen can't be so potent that you can just spam the sink. I'd even go so far as to think about taking the Vindicate regen debuff and adding it to Benevolence (and possibly making the debuff non-purgeable when attached to benevolence).

 

Take all of this with some grain of salt, as 2.0 was a long time ago, and I'm way to lazy to go back an read every class patchnote back to those days if I'm not being paid to do it. Overall though, these are the things that stand out to me when I think about what changed between the time when sages were justifiably outraged about, "heal to full and make them pay," and today when I tend to describe my healing style as, "running in circles and spamming AOEs."

 

 

Sages were at one point in a state of continuously having to make unfavorable tradeoffs in terms of movement, regen, health, and output. Then enough buffs go applied so that now the healing spec is basically free of tradeoffs.

Balance comes when there are fair tradeoffs. Tradeoffs also make the play more interesting. "Should I move or stay," or ,"burst or efficiency," aren't things that healing specced sages really have to think about anymore. It would not be terrible if some of those aspects came back somewhat.

[Icykill_]

My telekinetic Sage hits with the power of a wet noodle,sure I like playing him but in ops or even fp it just takes so much longer to take stuff down than with my Slinger.

They definitely need a good buff to their dps because atm thet are just not viable unless specced for heals.

 

A wet noodle indeed. They are the worst of the two dps spec as far as dps out put goes. Self Healing on them isnt so bad, but forget about killing any other spec unless they are total morons 😢

Edited June 12, 2017 by Icykill_

[alexsamma]

This is the only thing you said that I think is respectible

 

And the funny part is, it's not even relative to Sorc/Sage healing ironically enough

 

All healing specs are pretty broken imo, with interrupt nerf from back in the day, and various other changes over time, the spec is way too noob friendly. and the initiative to protect healers is so abundant, i dont even see healers kite anymore.

Almost anybody outside of a premade will never care to cc/manage enemy healers and melees barely have any pressure anymore.

I think all 3 healer specs need to be nerfed, but it will never happen so pointless to talk about it

 

When I read something like this I translate it to:

 

Matchmaking sucks

Most people aren't very good at pvp

 

and last but not least: Poster is not very good/not knowledgeable (mainly targeted at your statement that melee have no pressure).,

 

Carnage is very capable of 5.5k single target.

Anni can easily break over 5.5k single target, much higher if you can spread

Vigi/Veng can easily pull 6k+ (and much higher if you can slam on groups and maintain chilling screen dot)

Deception has solid single target dps with a ton of control

AP dps is actually stupid broken, they're just weak defensively

Hated's dps ceiling is also extremely high, but once again it's squishy

 

Good players on melee are extremely dangerous, just because the average player doesn't have a clue doesn't mean that a spec/class is not strong... unless you think everything should be as brain dead easy to play as arsenal merc.