Sorc/sage NEEDS a buff.

[Alssaran]

Give sorcs/sages some sort of buff.

 

I'm not sure about some sort of buff for two major reasons:

 

1. The ability in question should add a layer of gameplay to the class in question. Just getting a buff for standing still, and without adding anything of gameplay value to boost, seems like just a hard damage boost. What the Force Nexus thing is actually about is to provide some distinction between the classes, and a suggestion to introduce a semblance of difference between the specs. The new ability in question should really add a layer of new gameplay to the class. That's why I used Ley-Lines instead of a stand alone buff like "Incanter's Flow" from WoW. Rune of Power from WoW has a similar mechanic. A brief explanation about Ley Lines: "Ley Lines - Connects naturally occurring ley lines to create a circle of power which, while standing within it, increases attack speed by 15%. Duration: 30s" It's as much an offensive CD as a mechanic.

 

Interestingly enough, Stormblood, which is the new expansion, will be adding a new ability for the Black Mage - the skill to teleport to your Ley Line circle. It's, surprisingly, just a Phase Walk with a buff then.

 

Making it a mechanic like that will enable a mandatory and actually graspable difference between Sages and Commandos/Gunslingers, and changing these two up too will be a discussion we could have in their respective forums. A Sage player can now choose to gain this skill as a Telekinetics Sage, or simply go Balance and continue a very movement and dot-heavy spec. You get defensive bonuses and damage boosts while you remain within your Force Nexus (maybe merge half the Ethereal Entity defensive boost into the Nexus as buff?), but you'll lose that buff if you step out.

 

The PvE application would be to find a good, AoE less spot to start your burst phase by placing Force Nexus. If you need to evade, Force Speed out, then Phase Walk back in. You have to set the Nexus anew if your choosen area became an AoE hotspot and you placed it wrong.

 

The PvP application is the same, but the obvious counter is to force the Sage out of his Nexus. Force Push, Shockwave and Knockback Charges will throw him out. You could easily make out that any Sage who places his Nexus in the middle of a bridge is suicidal, but placing it next to walls strategically would give him an edge. However, he'd still relent under focus and not be a fortress.

 

2. I dislike buffs.

 

This is a personal thing rather than a reason why Bioware, objectively, couldn't do your suggestion. Incanter's Flow in WoW is kind of a "buff that stacks." It goes up to a certain percentage of bonus damage, and then flows down again. It repeats that multiple times a minute during the entire encounter.

 

What I tremendously dislike about it is, while a strong damage buff, it's hard to manage even for experienced people like me. I did raid competitively in WoW for most of BC and WotLK, and even I have issues managing my inner clock. I eventually downloaded a seperate interface addon to place a runic circle next to my character model. Depending on how many runes I had active in that circle, I knew how many stacks I had.

 

This, obviously, only applies if your suggested buff stacks. If it doesn't, however, then I wouldn't really see it as all that beneficial. To boost our damage? That works just fine. It wouldn't adress the underlying issue though: As long as all range DPS play the same, offer exactly the same utility and have no situational benefit to mix up in raids, we're looking at just stacking FOTM and adjusting damage values that'll always make people think: "Why don't I just stack up XY right now?"

 

That's one problem the OP, indirectly as it may have been, alluded to too. "No XY" due to their weak DPS. If we'd have classes that can give raid benefits and situational versatility, we'd have situations like: "Alright, the second boss is stationary. Maybe we should get a Sage and Force Nexus for that raid wide gather-up damage boost during the burst phase. The third boss spawns stuff that needs to be DPSed and kited. We could use a mercenary that moves around and kills them."

 

Obviously, reason number two is highly situational and depends on how your buff would work.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Alssaran

[Luuin]

Lightning is a burst spec that has abysmal burst when compared to the other specs of the same type. The only way it kinda sorta comes close is when it crits, when it procs the extra skill casts and when it exploits the instant Chain Lightning.

 

Madness is a sustained dps class that doesn't do a whole lot of damage and has a negative force rotation. (it's been like this for how many updates now?)

 

People saying "if they're part of a good team they're alright" make no sense. A class should be able to stand on it's own, not get carried by Merc/Marauder dps. Lightning is dead last in dps by a pretty large margin, something like 2.5-3k dps.

 

The only saving grace seems to be the lack of new group content coming out on a regular basis, so anytime something new comes out the guilds that run it are fully geared and won't see the pit falls of a Sorc/Sage in their group, cause their other DPS are picking up the slack and it should never be like that.

 

After Sorcs being god mode in...what... 4.0 was it? They were repeatedly nerfed over and over to bring them in line while the other classes were buffed at the same time. This ended up absolutely killing the class, putting its 2 dps specs at the bottom of the barrel. It needs to change. Not talking 4.0 levels again, but it does need to change so we can stand on our own again without needing other dps classes to pick up our slack. And having a Sorc be a battery for the other dps to do more damage is not the way to do it, nor is giving them a skill that requires them to stand still to start scaling their damage up, unless bioware wants to keep making stationary fights all day every day. No thanks to that.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Luuin

[Zolxtren]

Force Lighting ? more like Force Tickling..............

[slukslaksla]

Im kinda like this idea.

 

Give sorcs/sages some sort of buff and call it Concentration or something like that.

If character stand still - he recieve damage buff.

Seriously. This solution is so elegant.

 

But... Unfortunatly we cannot expect this kind of mechanics from SWTOR combat team.

 

like dragonage inquisition's ice buff thing that regens mana when u stand still.. only with damage.

 

however!:

 

i would LOVE to see say 2 yrs from now after no doubt many other game updates and changes see the sorc be alot more like:

 

KOTFE/KOTET spoiler ahead:

 

 

the last chapter when you play as valkorion and get to use stuff like dark ritual and so on. THAT IS HOW A SORC/SAGE SHOULD FEEL LIKE!

someone powerfull in the force but thats about it. stick a saber through their chest and they die but let them stay at range and do their thing and they would be as good if not better than others!

 

sorc is a mage style class and right now it feels like all that lightning could bearly charge a phone... i agree 100% that sorc might not have ALWAYS been bad (over exaduration on my end) but it sure aint good right now.

 

the main reason PVE wise ppl "ban" sorcs from their grps is cus pure dps.. ppl are fixated on it. i like the mechanic where u spam lightning stuff with a chance to get secondary attacks but they only work well if you constantly crit.. wich you dont...

 

what im saying is gameplay wise sorc is ok right now. id love some new phasewalk mechanic like maybe teleport to a random loaction etc. but all over gameplay is fun. only problem is that the numbers are bad. and the fact that my 70 decently geared sorc is outpreformed by a lvl 57 merc is cus of this. pure numbers...

 

 

realisticly speaking i doubt bw is gonna overhaul sorc anytime soon but at least change up some numbers would be nice. give all the lightning abilitys more base dmg and higher crit. so that if your LUCKY u might see a 20k crit here and there. but otherwise ur dps would stay similar to say sniper marksman...

 

again im not sure how to aproach this but making threads like this will at least maybe help the devs see some kind of idea what others want.. idk...

[DarthCognusSion]

If you want to see what has been proposed in the past you can check out these posts. The thing is that most of these threads never come up with solid suggestions and are really complaint threads more than anything.

 

Proposed PvE Balance

Proposed Lightning/TK Changes

 

There are other things that can be considered. One fix for Lightning would be to just make the CL bug an actual thing and no longer a bug. Lightning needs very little work to make it better really though, just some number tweaks or the CL change. Madness needs many more fixes. Bant has some great ones in that first thread. Food for thought if people actually care about fixing the classes and bringing them up to par instead of just complaining that it sucks.

[Kingsbount]

snip

 

I get what you saying.

 

You want to convert Phase walk into some sort of COVER that snipers have, am i rite?

Actually this could work.

But it will need some adjustments.

Since sorcs already have enough of mobility instruments - phase itself should be gone. And CD should be removed entirely (snipers don't have CD on cover, remember?).

 

OR

 

They could add a completely new skill (and throw away that insulting saber strike replacement) with this "buff area".

[slukslaksla]

If you want to see what has been proposed in the past you can check out these posts. The thing is that most of these threads never come up with solid suggestions and are really complaint threads more than anything.

 

Proposed PvE Balance

Proposed Lightning/TK Changes

 

There are other things that can be considered. One fix for Lightning would be to just make the CL bug an actual thing and no longer a bug. Lightning needs very little work to make it better really though, just some number tweaks or the CL change. Madness needs many more fixes. Bant has some great ones in that first thread. Food for thought if people actually care about fixing the classes and bringing them up to par instead of just complaining that it sucks.

 

agreed. and just so its said i ofc dont want to complain lol^^

[tummiswtor]

Signed.

 

The dmg difference between for example full geared sage and half-geared commando is too big.

I don't want game to force me to change class that i like (rotation)

 

Sage got lowest (?) damage, lowest (?) crit chances and damage, and his skills got cast time.

Yup, he can attack from distance, it helps on PvP.

 

 

I've put ,,?" becouse not sure if any other class got lowest, for sure his dmg/crit is low.

Edited May 28, 2017 by tummiswtor

[torleth]

How about nerfing the mercs and the sniper DPS? Sorcs had huge buffs since 3.0 - 4.0. Enough is enough, your complaining because you get globaled within 3 seconds. Learn your class. Sorcs/sages can still pull a decent number for DPS.

[Luuin]

How about nerfing the mercs and the sniper DPS? Sorcs had huge buffs since 3.0 - 4.0. Enough is enough, your complaining because you get globaled within 3 seconds. Learn your class. Sorcs/sages can still pull a decent number for DPS.

 

"learning the class" doesn't magically fix the issues with the 2 DPS specs it has there buddy.

 

And HAD being the key word, the buffs they received to make them good back in 4.0 era are all gone. Learn the class all you want, the highest theoretical dps for lightning/telekinetics is still dead last and well below the average and leagues below the top 4-5 dps class specs.

 

I'd settle for Lightning being dead last if they'd ever finally fix Madness to not suck like it always has. As it stands right now, Lightning and Madness are at the very bottom of the list the class doesn't have one viable spec that isn't getting carried through content. I think Lightning dropped 4 ranks to hit bottom or something like that and Madness dropped 10 to hit 3rd last.

[ViktorAres]

How about nerfing the mercs and the sniper DPS? Sorcs had huge buffs since 3.0 - 4.0. Enough is enough, your complaining because you get globaled within 3 seconds. Learn your class. Sorcs/sages can still pull a decent number for DPS.

Yes, but those numbers are fluff damage from AoE and DoT attacks, not the effective single target damage that any other class has. Learn this.

[slukslaksla]

How about nerfing the mercs and the sniper DPS? Sorcs had huge buffs since 3.0 - 4.0. Enough is enough, your complaining because you get globaled within 3 seconds. Learn your class. Sorcs/sages can still pull a decent number for DPS.

 

sorc buffed or not sux right now.

 

and in many situations i can play just fine without getting globaled. still one merk in any gear/level will kill me if he use hes net on me.

 

and trust me. TRUST ME (im a sniper engineer) i played sorc since i joined wich was roughly around launch. ever since day one i played it, lightning most of all and i done NiM with him back when that was doable. and i seen sorc both rise and fall.. so yea TRUST me i know the class better than i know my friends... (cus i dont have any ;_

 

merc does need a nerf (sniper feels fine tbh, as long as its not 3 of them at you) but sorc gets slain easely by other "lower tier classes" too. such as powertech for instance.

 

i see the fact that sorcs playstyle (for lightning spec) is more" lower dmg but more attacks" ... but it dosn't matter. cus the numbers are low. i like comparing L-sorc to mara carnage cus only big difference is melee/range.

 

carnage is same as lightning bolt or whetever and the other stuff such as gore is like chainlightning etc. and playing a mara i got good survival (enaugh at least) and HIGH dmg. usualy top of the parser to be exact...

 

sorc aint got that.

 

so wether u know ur class or not i have NEVER been killed by a dps sorc in pvp in YEARS. even when playing another sorc myself xD

 

numbers is clearly the problem here not skill

[FerkWork]

There some simple fixes for most of them.

 

Lightning:

• Remove CL Exploit/Bug First and Foremost

• Increase Damage on TB so average Crit is 25k compared to 20k now (comparable to Hearseeker and Ambush) and LB damage comparable to Snipe/Tracer Missile.

• Make Shock Passive 50% so it's a noticeable passive to use thus diversify rotation.

• Forked Darkness/Lightning Passive back up to 30% chance and 30% Damage

 

Madness:

• Remove passive decrease on damage for FL

• Wrath now makes LS free and 50% more damage

• FL recovers 2% of Force (up from 1%)

• Force Leach use on Deathmarks restores 30 Force (up from 15)

 

Currently Sorc Heals are only healing spec that actually needs to heal to be able off DPS continuously and puts them below their Operative or Merc counterparts in Off DPS

Thus Corruption:

• LS is free in Corruption Spec

Edited May 28, 2017 by FerkWork

[Gyronamics]

Currently Sorc Heals are only healing spec that actually needs to heal to be able off DPS continuously and puts them below their Operative or Merc counterparts in Off DPS

Thus Corruption:

• LS is free in Corruption Spec

 

I'm gonna have to break out that worlds tiniest violin for sorc healer off dps.

 

When its the best at PVE healing and PVP healing, you know, it's role, its something special when on the wishlist is more dps for the healer spec.

[DarthCognusSion]

There some simple fixes for most of them.

 

Lightning:

• Remove CL Exploit/Bug First and Foremost

• Increase Damage on TB so average Crit is 25k compared to 20k now (comparable to Hearseeker and Ambush) and LB damage comparable to Snipe/Tracer Missile.

• Make Shock Passive 50% so it's a noticeable passive to use thus diversify rotation.

• Forked Darkness/Lightning Passive back up to 30% chance and 30% Damage

 

Madness:

• Remove passive decrease on damage for FL

• Wrath now makes LS free and 50% more damage

• FL recovers 2% of Force (up from 1%)

• Force Leach use on Deathmarks restores 30 Force (up from 15)

 

Currently Sorc Heals are only healing spec that actually needs to heal to be able off DPS continuously and puts them below their Operative or Merc counterparts in Off DPS

Thus Corruption:

• LS is free in Corruption Spec

 

I'm not sure if making TB hit for 25k all the time is a great idea. While HM and Ambush can hit that hard, they have longer CDs and are not guaranteed to crit like TB has/is. Your other suggestions are solid though. I would add that CL and LF hit like wet noodles and should probably be buffed a bit

 

Also I don't think Corruption needs more upsides. It is possible to good heal dps in NiM as it stands, and it is already super strong on the heals front so I would say to leave it alone.

[FerkWork]

I'm gonna have to break out that worlds tiniest violin for sorc healer off dps.

 

When its the best at PVE healing and PVP healing, you know, it's role, its something special when on the wishlist is more dps for the healer spec.

 

I mean to me it's less about more DPS (although it would still do that) than maintaining a sustainable Off DPS rotation that doesn't include channeling an uneccssary heal something the other 2 can do. Honestly I would settle for Consumption procs to include Force Lightning Crits so that it still needs GCD to Consume but instead of using Innervate on parts where the overheating isn't necessary that it can substitute it in. To me it's less about the present and solving that as it lacks an auto attack. But if not it doesn't really matter to me since as the DPS changes and as you said more of a wishlist.

 

I'm not sure if making TB hit for 25k all the time is a great idea. While HM and Ambush can hit that hard, they have longer CDs and are not guaranteed to crit like TB has/is. Your other suggestions are solid though. I would add that CL and LF hit like wet noodles and should probably be buffed a bit

 

Also I don't think Corruption needs more upsides. It is possible to good heal dps in NiM as it stands, and it is already super strong on the heals front so I would say to leave it alone.

 

I can see the damage being put on those two abilities instead. Personally, I feel as burst class damage should be comparable to moves but the auto Crit does make it different in that regard and might be too OP. The increase on damage for CL and LF would allow it continue the burst of TB. I'm in favor of any damage increase that makes it comparable other burst specs. Although I don't know if I did enough for Madness damage wise, I would prefer it to be comparable to Virulence and IO.

Edited May 28, 2017 by FerkWork

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I'm in favor of any damage increase that makes it comparable other burst specs. Although I don't know if I did enough for Madness damage wise, I would prefer it to be comparable to Virulence and IO.

 

Prior to 5.0 I'd of said that Virulence should do more damage than Sorc DPS because Sniper is a pure DPS class without any heals. With the changes made to Snipers in 5.0, I'd hardly call them a 'pure dps class'. Given their self-heals, insane DCDs and ability to CC [even more so against melee] ,they no longer have any justification for having that much DPS on sorc DPS.

 

I think at this point pretty much everyone knows that Sorcs need a DPS buff and I'm confident they'll get it in the foreseeable future. My only thought on that is that it be a reasonable DPS buff. We don't need another over performing rDPS class like Snipers and Mercs.

 

DPS output potentials should be made to have a correlation with self healing potentials. The more heal potential a class may have the less DPS potential it should have based on an even dps to heal ratio. There's too much healing going on with some DPS specs and when the heals and the DPS are both appreciable that's when you start to run into class balance problems.

 

Ranged have better uptime than melee and are less prone to take damage [they still take plenty tho] and less effected by mechanics [generally speaking of course] this should also be a factor in considering where Sorc DPS should be. That there is such a disparity between Sorc DPS and other rDPS specs defies reason. It's not a small difference, it's huge. Merc and sniper DPS should be lessened if they are to keep the level of healing and defensives they presently have and Sorc dps should be increased, thereby bringing such disparities closer together and not leave sorc DPS the clear worst choice for rDPS spots. Same role, same type [ranged], same purpose, there's no reason sorc DPS should be so behind other rDPS.

 

I'll keep my finger's crossed for you guys.

[Luuin]

Prior to 5.0 I'd of said that Virulence should do more damage than Sorc DPS because Sniper is a pure DPS class without any heals. With the changes made to Snipers in 5.0, I'd hardly call them a 'pure dps class'. Given their self-heals, insane DCDs and ability to CC [even more so against melee] ,they no longer have any justification for having that much DPS on sorc DPS.

 

I think at this point pretty much everyone knows that Sorcs need a DPS buff and I'm confident they'll get it in the foreseeable future. My only thought on that is that it be a reasonable DPS buff. We don't need another over performing rDPS class like Snipers and Mercs.

 

DPS output potentials should be made to have a correlation with self healing potentials. The more heal potential a class may have the less DPS potential it should have based on an even dps to heal ratio. There's too much healing going on with some DPS specs and when the heals and the DPS are both appreciable that's when you start to run into class balance problems.

 

Ranged have better uptime than melee and are less prone to take damage [they still take plenty tho] and less effected by mechanics [generally speaking of course] this should also be a factor in considering where Sorc DPS should be. That there is such a disparity between Sorc DPS and other rDPS specs defies reason. It's not a small difference, it's huge. Merc and sniper DPS should be lessened if they are to keep the level of healing and defensives they presently have and Sorc dps should be increased, thereby bringing such disparities closer together and not leave sorc DPS the clear worst choice for rDPS spots. Same role, same type [ranged], same purpose, there's no reason sorc DPS should be so behind other rDPS.

 

I'll keep my finger's crossed for you guys.

 

I never understood that line of reasoning. Just because a DPS can heal itself, doesn't mean it should do less damage -- it's intended role/function. Even in PvP, if a dps is healing that just means they aren't putting out damage and are resource starving themselves in the process.

 

Why would you take a dps that can heal to a raid but deal LESS overall damage when you have main role healers to do that job?

 

If the bottom end classes aren't getting buffed. then nerf the top dps to lessen the dps gap between everyone. I'd prefer a buff since I prefer playing Madness, but it's so god damn bad with resources.

[slukslaksla]

I never understood that line of reasoning. Just because a DPS can heal itself, doesn't mean it should do less damage -- it's intended role/function. Even in PvP, if a dps is healing that just means they aren't putting out damage and are resource starving themselves in the process.

 

Why would you take a dps that can heal to a raid but deal LESS overall damage when you have main role healers to do that job?

 

If the bottom end classes aren't getting buffed. then nerf the top dps to lessen the dps gap between everyone. I'd prefer a buff since I prefer playing Madness, but it's so gosh darn bad with resources.

 

agreed

[Jedi_Max]

As one of a few who is doing hard PvE content in 5.0 using TK Sage, I would say that it doesn't need any core changes. It just need a slight buff (15-20%) to the damage of its hardest hitting abilities (turbulence ang gust) to make burst and single target dps be closer to other range classes burst and single target dps. Made so, this can really be called "balanced".

[Luuin]

As one of a few who is doing hard PvE content in 5.0 using TK Sage, I would say that it doesn't need any core changes. It just need a slight buff (15-20%) to the damage of its hardest hitting abilities (turbulence ang gust) to make burst and single target dps be closer to other range classes burst and single target dps. Made so, this can really be called "balanced".

 

I don't think the auto crit on Thundering Blast benefits from super crits either. which probably hurts it a lot.

[Jedi_Max]

I don't think the auto crit on Thundering Blast benefits from super crits either. which probably hurts it a lot.

 

In 5.0 turbulence finally benefits from super crit, but the base ability damage has been nerfed for no reason.

[Luuin]

In 5.0 turbulence finally benefits from super crit, but the base ability damage has been nerfed for no reason.

 

"Congrats you can finally super crit...buuuuuut we're nerfing the base damage. Have fun!"

[Jedi_Max]

"Congrats you can finally super crit...buuuuuut we're nerfing the base damage. Have fun!"

Hope they wont stop super crit working again at least...

[slukslaksla]

maybe they could introduce some sorta charge system like sin deception. so say each lightning bolt thing increase chainlightning dmg by 5% or something. that combined with a general buff to all dmg and sorc (lightning at least) could be great again.

 

 

#makesorcgreatagain