Slicing: Why it had to be nerfed.

[Thanatosx]

All the studies I've seen had still shown a net profit after a long duration of constant slicing missions. Considering that all you need to do for slicing missions is click "Go!" on a companion, it is free money.

 

It's still not free money. That is a misnomer.

 

I'd agree with the whole free money thing if there was no risk, but, there is.

 

You may be pushing a button, but you are still spending money, risking loss and preventing one or more companions from being utilized in another role while you perform other tasks.

 

"Long duration" is very subjective...this game hasn't been live long enough to really provide any valid statistical evidence. I've seen people post both ways....after 2 days...some have posted consistent losses, others have posted profits. There is the unfortunate variable of "random" built in and some people just have better "luck" than others do.

 

A friend of mine was following the advice of one of the spreadsheets posted in the forum and he did alright, but in his opinion it wasn't enough of a profit to justify the crew skill, especially compared to how it will be so much more less viable end game and also compared to other ways to make more cps, such as warzones.

[Thanatosx]

WTB: Chinese farmer.

 

We don't need slicing.. !

 

 

QFT LOL.

 

Someone else posted it best:

 

I for one, Welcome our Chinese Credit Farming Overlords (credit to whomever it was, because I lol'ed hard)

[Zakkana]

Most slicers know why it was nerfed and agree with it...but disagree on the EXTENT it was nerfed.

 

It's amazing that after 2 days and over 200 pages of forum threads, this simple fact still eludes people.

[Acidictadpole]

It's still not free money. That is a misnomer.

 

I'd agree with the whole free money thing if there was no risk, but, there is.

 

You may be pushing a button, but you are still spending money, risking loss and preventing one or more companions from being utilized in another role while you perform other tasks.

 

 

You may be spending money, but that's still a net profit. Risking loss is possible but, again, every study I've seen has still shown slicing to come out with a net profit over time just from missions.

 

It's free money because you still end up with more than you started in every known scenario.

 

Consider a mail in rebate for 100% of the cost of what you bought. Doesn't that make the item free?

 

This is of course discounting opportunity cost on companion use, but everything else would likely cost more in missions anyway. You can only have one companion out, and if you have the rest of them crafting then yeah you shouldn't be sending them out on slicing.

[Sanchpanza]

Look, will people please get it through their heads that you're going to have inflation in an MMO game NO MATTER WHAT. There is nothing you can do to change this. It's simple, undeniable fact.

 

As people level more characters to the level cap, and once they're geared decently, their outwards flow of cash is severely reduced; While they are still gaining tons of money in every aspect of the game, whether it's grinding mobs, pvp zones or space missions, they aren't spending money on anything other than consumables (if they're too lazy to craft them) or repairs. There's no more skills to buy, there's no more mounts to buy. All they have left to sink their money into is buying things for their lower level alts. When they have enough money that they don't care about the prices of what they buy, because they can afford whatever they want, then people can charge higher and higher prices - Inflation.

 

Yes, slicing was producing a LOT of money for people of low level. Yes, it was overpowered somewhat, but it was not going to be the SOLE cause of "hyper inflation". This would happen with or without slicing. In any system where people can make money unchecked with no upper limits on the amount that they can have, then you're bound to get inflation.

 

All that nerfing slicing has done is delayed that inflation, it hasn't prevented it, and it hasn't changed the core problem with MMO economies that once people reach the level cap they make tons upon tons of money and flood the market with it because they can't be arsed to look for deals, they just buy the first thing that they can. Who cares if it's 1,000 or even 10,000 overpriced when you're making 100,000 per day?

 

To say that slicing is now in line with every other gathering skill is morose and usually sprouted by smug people who didn't put time into developing the skill at all, because of whatever reasons they had. No, I'm not calling you all smug, but there are a fair few out there with smug attitudes at the moment.

 

What people forget is that a) You need a certain skill level to open up any slicing node above grade 1, b) There are NOWHERE near enough slicing nodes in the lower level areas to level the skill up before you get to the next area, and c) You're going to have to put money into slicing before you can even THINK about getting profit from gathering higher level nodes.

 

Whereas, with most of the other gathering skills a 95 credit mission will net you 2-4 products. All you need to do is sell those products for 50 credits each and you're in profit roughly 50% of the time, and break even the other 50%. That's not to mention the fact that apart from archaelogy, the other gathering skills can be levelled by killing strong mobs of the right type and collecting from them. AND those skills go towards your other crafting skills, unlike slicing, which is in a field of its own.

 

Just as an example, levelling my bounty hunter from 11-18 on Dromund Kaas I gained 90(ish) levels in scavenging and 25 levels in slicing. None of that was from missions, all from nodes and killing creatures. For me to gather the slicing nodes on the next planet I had to sink roughly 2000 into slicing (that's 2000 losses, after the product of the mission was deducted from the cost) to even be able to collect slicing nodes on the next planet. I need to slice 10 nodes, minimum, to even be in decent profit (after 2 hours of gaming I've found 2 slicing nodes worth 300 a piece), whereas someone who scavenged from nodes and kills has spent a sum total of nothing and gained thousands worth of materials. I spent roughly 4-5 hours on Dromund Kaas, and in that time gained roughly 1/4 of the skill I need to gather nodes on the next planet, meaning I would have to spend another 12-15 hours running around, purely to collect nodes, to ensure I didn't have to sink money into the skill.

 

This, quite simply, is not balanced.

 

I do not deny that slicing, in its previous incarnation, would have sped up the inflation of the economy, nor that some people were going over the top. But the skill served an important purpose by being profitable; It took the grind out of levelling your crafting skills. For people that can sink 5+ hours into a game a day, 1 hours grinding for credits is not a lot. For those people that work a hard day, come home, have dinner, and want to grab a quick couple of hours on the game before bed, slicing was a life saver. It literally doubled, or even tripled, the time that they could spend playing the fun aspect of the game rather than spending their valuable time grinding for cash.

 

Those that are claiming slicing was going to be the sole source of inflation and that the economy will now be stable have obviously either never played an MMO for a long time, or they are just scapegoating a skill they don't like.

 

Try looking at this at the perspective of a casual gamer. Every MMO up to this they've had to grind for cash or materials to stay ahead for their level. SWTOR comes along and suddenly that entire grind is taken away, they're free to just enjoy the game without money problems. Then suddenly, BAM, that's taken away and they're back to the same square 1 that's been going on for 15 years of MMO's; Grinding. And I'm telling you now, if you play MMO games for 15 years, and have had to do the same grinding just in different incarnations pretty much all of that time, it gets pretty tiresome pretty fast.

 

Slicing either needs more nodes or to be made atleast a tiny bit profitable, or even better, reformed so people actually have some idea of the augment they're getting. Turn it into a proper trade skill... Rather than having Rich Yield: 10-16 Augments. Have Rich Yield: 10-16 of an augment type.

 

The only TRUE way to stop inflation in an MMO is to limit the amount of money people can possibly have, hence mimicking RL. But then there would be outcry. UO did this by limiting your bank space to a certain number of items and actually making they coinage an item you had to carry around. Even then inflation was present. I've not seen a game since then implement any sort of strategy to fend off the flooding of the market with end-game cash.

 

Anyway, thats my opinion (rant) done. I don't think I'm going to read anymore of these threads, they're just depressing with the spitefullness of some players towards others, just because they saw a way to break the monotomy of grinding for hours on end.

[Thanatosx]

It's amazing that after 2 days and over 200 pages of forum threads, this simple fact still eludes people.

 

I don't think it eludes them, I simply think they refuse to accept it as an acceptable response. It doesn't fall within their perview.

 

 

You may be spending money, but that's still a net profit. Risking loss is possible but, again, every study I've seen has still shown slicing to come out with a net profit over time just from missions.

 

As of 2 days of slicing, I've lost more than I've made. My friend has made more than he has lost and as I've said, I've seen people post 2 days at each end of the spectrum, so you must only be selectively reading "studies".

 

It's free money because you still end up with more than you started in every known scenario.

 

That is an ignorant, unfounded, untrue response, because it has been shown in many threads to be otherwise. Show the hard statistical, mathematical data which proves it. There are people who have posted charts which show it is obviously untrue. I've yet to see any data to support that fantasy other than impassioned "my opinion is fact" kind of statements.

 

Consider a mail in rebate for 100% of the cost of what you bought. Doesn't that make the item free?

 

It depends on your point of view. I'm not sure your analogy fits anyway. Let me have a go at it though; you have to have envelopes to mail it in (which I would have to buy since I don't have any), you'd have to buy a stamp (which I'd have to buy or a book of them because you can't always buy just 1 from some places) and then you spend the time filling out the envelope, the rebate form, photocopying the receipt or tearing out the box proof of purchase and then you'd have to mail it (or dispatch your companion to do all of this, tying them up from sweeping and mopping the floor at home).

 

Free can be very subjective. Mailing in that rebate not be worth it to me unless it was a big ticket item. One of my favorite expressions is: TANSTAAFL

 

This is of course discounting opportunity cost on companion use, but everything else would likely cost more in missions anyway. You can only have one companion out, and if you have the rest of them crafting then yeah you shouldn't be sending them out on slicing.

 

There are those of us with only 1 or 2 companions at this point and even slicing constantly before the nerf, didn't generate huge sums of money. One point of the argument you won't get a disagreement from is regarding the people who managed to make millions from setting up alt-slicing factories and rushed to 50 to send all their companions out slicing constantly. People always find an exploit to systems and those of us who aren't are always the ones getting punished.

 

This nerf isn't likely going to really hurt all of them anyway. They've moved on and are preparing for the next 'big exploit' to make money, because...that's what some people do.

[Kazzuk]

Slicing was OP in the sense that ALL crew skills are, you should NOT be able to send your minions out on missions that are a higher level than you are, period. Slicing did not and does not scale well, for your current level it was decent credits, not spectacular, just decent.

 

The issue was level 20s being able to get to 400 skill and run the level 50 missions... with level 50 scaled rewards.

 

Those could crit for 5-6K credits in a 30 - 45 minute mission if you got lucky (rare), normal was 2-3K.

 

However, this is average cash at level 50, people complaining had no clue what the issue was. It costs me at level 40 12K+ for a single repair bill, medpacks cost 20K, speederbike riding skill 2 costs 210K.... Trash mobs drop 200-300 credits each, whenever I send my companion to sell he gets between 7 and 9K just selling the grays... so if they made it across ALL professions where you can't level above your characters level it would have fixed slicing as well as any others they have not yet noticed have the exact same issue.

 

The nerf was not just missions either, it was all lockboxes everywhere. Right now, why would I even consider going out of my way to find a lockbox when I get more return just killing trash mobs? The nerf was too harsh and needs to be mostly rolled back and they really should consider not letting people level skills above their level to avoid these issues.

[Thanatosx]

...Your Post...

 

I pretty much agree with this. It was really the crux of the problem and I'm surprised it was never, ever addressed in beta.

 

And I don't even think they would have had to put an artificial level cap there either. Just give missions higher and higher failure rates the bigger the level gap so that it isn't financially smart to run them and makes it more like gambling against the "House".

[VioletZero]

I personally feel that the lack of level caps was just an additive to the core issue, which was the completely risk free 100% profit nature.

 

The OP pretty much said everything I've been meaning to say for the past day or two.

 

Kind of sad about that actually.

[Sanchpanza]

I personally feel that the lack of level caps was just an additive to the core issue, which was the completely risk free 100% profit nature.

 

So...running space missions with no repair bills if you die is not 100% profit nature?

 

Is that the next thing people are going to complain about?

 

Even the lowest level space missions give the same profit/time as farming tier 1 slicing missions pre-patch with one companion.

[Thanatosx]

...which was the completely risk free 100% profit nature...

 

Where was the risk free 100% profit?

 

I surely couldn't find any anywhere, but then again, I'm not one of the few people who found ways to exploit the system either....they probably had 100% risk free profit, but likely the vast majority of us didn't.

 

That is the case with any MMO though. There's always a group of people who find ways to come out on top and exploit any system with flaws. It will be interesting to see what profession they pick next that causes the NerfHammer and people to hop on the anti-bandwagon for that profession too.

[TUXs]

Whatever. I think it's a horribly large nerf. Tweaking was needed, but you should not lose money sending your companions out slicing.

 

With how miserly Bioware has this games credits, it's a nerf that will hurt more than 'balance'.

[VioletZero]

So...running space missions with no repair bills if you die is not 100% profit nature?

 

Is that the next thing people are going to complain about?

 

Even the lowest level space missions give the same profit/time as farming tier 1 slicing missions pre-patch with one companion.

 

You have to spend the time to do it though.

 

Slicing has no time spent.

[Luckydacat]

Slicing mission returns are fine.

 

There are 3 types of crew skills, lets go over them.

 

Crafting skills - probably are going to lose money doing missions until you reach max level and get some decent patterns.

 

Mission skills - UWT/Diplomacy/ect. The only way to get this stuff is by doing these missions. Supply/demand will determine profits.

 

Gathering skills - Scavenging/Slicing/ect. Missions generally lose money, and are used to boost your gathering skill if you fall behind. Slicing is a special case that doesn't lose money on average (which is fine.)

 

I don't see what everyone is so mad about.

[Thanatosx]

You have to spend the time to do it though.

 

Slicing has no time spent.

 

That's not entirely accurate.

 

You may not be spending your time doing it, but it takes up the time of one or more of your companions. Now for someone with 5 companions, that may be a non-issue, but for those of us with 1 or 2, it can be an issue as it means more risk when we are out leveling or exploring or whatever.

 

Of course, by the time you are 50, I understand the credit amount you got from slicing was pretty non-impressive anyway.

 

And from past experience with other MMO's, I'd bet the amount other crafters will be charging for their epic gear will make the amount you get from slicing look pretty paltry...and it will be well deserved too. Which again was part of the point of slicing.

[VioletZero]

Slicing mission returns are fine.

 

There are 3 types of crew skills, lets go over them.

 

Crafting skills - probably are going to lose money doing missions until you reach max level and get some decent patterns.

 

Mission skills - UWT/Diplomacy/ect. The only way to get this stuff is by doing these missions. Supply/demand will determine profits.

 

Gathering skills - Scavenging/Slicing/ect. Missions generally lose money, and are used to boost your gathering skill if you fall behind. Slicing is a special case that doesn't lose money on average (which is fine.)

 

I don't see what everyone is so mad about.

 

I can sort of see the problem though.

 

I can't say that Slicing is the same as any other gathering profession for the sole reason that what fuels Slicing is what you get from it.

 

There is no "trade off" here. Either you make it off good, or you don't.

 

When it comes to any other mission, the trade off may or may not be worth it depending on who you ask. Some people might think that spending 1000 credits on a few mats might be a waste while others will think that it is 100% worth it.

 

With slicing, there is no subjectivity. Depending on your yield, it's either worth it or it is not. Which is where the biggest problem comes in.

 

Credit boxes don't work for missions. They just don't.

[Kazzuk]

If we want to be pendantic..

 

"It is my opinion that Slicing, as a gathering profession, should not be intended to make money off running missions."

 

I've given my reasons for why that is the case, if you disagree please post your reasoning and we can discuss it.

 

You sir need to read the CODEX entry for slicing.. then come back and revise "your opinion"

[Daragoz]

The only true reason BW nerfed slicing was because of whiny idiots that are mad that others had slicing and they didn't think to make a slicer. From everything I have read, all I see for the most part is people that had slicing saying "I made X millions, it needed nerfed", or the ones that think " OMG slicers make SOOO much.. that's not fair"...

 

Those ideals are idiotic at the core. Now with the slicing nerf, the game has more issues than not. Who truly gives a damn if someone else has a million credits???? Whine some more because you don't have a million or better yet, whine because you have them and don't want others to make a million.

 

 

BW listened to the moaning and groaning of whiny people who can't stand seeing others succeed. THAT is the core issue. If you think any differently, go back to wow, rappelz, or some other pathetic game and stop trying to ruin SWTOR.

 

End of story.

[Luckydacat]

I can sort of see the problem though.

 

I can't say that Slicing is the same as any other gathering profession for the sole reason that what fuels Slicing is what you get from it.

 

There is no "trade off" here. Either you make it off good, or you don't.

 

When it comes to any other mission, the trade off may or may not be worth it depending on who you ask. Some people might think that spending 1000 credits on a few mats might be a waste while others will think that it is 100% worth it.

 

With slicing, there is no subjectivity. Depending on your yield, it's either worth it or it is not. Which is where the biggest problem comes in.

 

Credit boxes don't work for missions. They just don't.

 

Those other people would be wrong though. Mats fluctuate, but stay at a pretty well defined cost (at least when the game gets running a bit.) Those missions are a loss when you could go to the GTN and spend way less for the same thing.

 

There are some valid complaints with slicing (not enough nodes to lvl, augments seem worthless,) but mission returns are fine.

 

I do agree that slicing as a gathering profession seems weird though. Maybe mission boxes could have something besides credits in them (random gathering mats?,) and world nodes could remain credits.

[eponymousbosch]

If that was true then it would have been nerfed before launch

 

Also, if that were true there would never have been any reason for missions that just award lockboxes.

[The_Archon]

Where was the risk free 100% profit?

 

I surely couldn't find any anywhere, but then again, I'm not one of the few people who found ways to exploit the system either....they probably had 100% risk free profit, but likely the vast majority of us didn't.

 

The risk comes when you place your crafted item on the market. There is no guarantee it will sell for what it might need to sell for in order to be profitable... it may not sell at all.

 

Slicers, when finding a lockbox out on the range, get instant profit (especially if it's pure credits). There is no worrying about IF you might be able to craft this material into something that MIGHT sell, IF you can afford the recipe from the trainer.

[Thanatosx]

The risk comes when you place your crafted item on the market. There is no guarantee it will sell for what it might need to sell for in order to be profitable... it may not sell at all.

 

Slicers, when finding a lockbox out on the range, get instant profit (especially if it's pure credits). There is no worrying about IF you might be able to craft this material into something that MIGHT sell, IF you can afford the recipe from the trainer.

 

That's other professions, you know...the ones they call crafting.

 

This is apples to oranges.

 

You can go out "gathering" your raw materials, like crystals, biochem stuff, etc. and either USE them (to further your skill + you get skill points for gathering) or sell them on the AH. It costs you nothing to re-list anything that doesn't sell.

 

Plus there IS risk on the range with lock boxes. I clear the way, someone else runs up and steals it out from under me while I am in combat OR the monsters kill me trying to get to it.

 

There is no worrying about crafting the material into something because there is NO option for a slicer to CRAFT. It's not a CRAFTING profession anyway it's considered a GATHERING profession.

 

You compare similar things, like one gathering skill to another and one crafting skill to another...not a gathering skill to a crafting skill. That's some nice sleight-of-hand though, but the whole foundation of that argument is flawed from the start.

 

If you want to bring up the selling argument, who do you think bought crafter greens and and blues that might otherwise not be bought or bought the resources (in bulk) gathering players put up on the AH? I bet you'd see it was slicers who typically had higher income since that gathering profession was originally put in place to inject credits into the system (so beta players say the dev's have said, that is only hearsay from me since I wasn't a beta tester).

 

Yes, it did need to be toned down, but hitting it with the vorpal nerfsword was to much.

 

It's not the majority of people's fault that a minority found a flaw in the system that they were able to exploit and become millionaires and it's simply wrong to punish everyone for the actions of the few.

[Zerosix]

So lets make missions for all the gathering professions have a 99% chance to get you nothing and a 1% chance to get you something, its only fair, right?

 

Fact is everyone who didn't pick slicing and sells materials on GM got MORE credits per item when the slicing wasn't nerfed. Now everyone will get less money and everyone will have problems buying things they want. Now THAT's real fun.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Zerosix

[Daragoz]

That's other professions, you know...the ones they call crafting.

 

This is apples to oranges.

 

You can go out "gathering" your raw materials, like crystals, biochem stuff, etc. and either USE them (to further your skill + you get skill points for gathering) or sell them on the AH. It costs you nothing to re-list anything that doesn't sell.

 

Plus there IS risk on the range with lock boxes. I clear the way, someone else runs up and steals it out from under me while I am in combat OR the monsters kill me trying to get to it.

 

There is no worrying about crafting the material into something because there is NO option for a slicer to CRAFT. It's not a CRAFTING profession anyway it's considered a GATHERING profession.

 

You compare similar things, like one gathering skill to another and one crafting skill to another...not a gathering skill to a crafting skill. That's some nice sleight-of-hand though, but the whole foundation of that argument is flawed from the start.

 

If you want to bring up the selling argument, who do you think bought crafter greens and and blues that might otherwise not be bought or bought the resources (in bulk) gathering players put up on the AH? I bet you'd see it was slicers who typically had higher income since that gathering profession was originally put in place to inject credits into the system (so beta players say the dev's have said, that is only hearsay from me since I wasn't a beta tester).

 

Yes, it did need to be toned down, but hitting it with the vorpal nerfsword was to much.

 

It's not the majority of people's fault that a minority found a flaw in the system that they were able to exploit and become millionaires and it's simply wrong to punish everyone for the actions of the few.

 

So lets make missions for all the gathering professions have a 99% chance to get you nothing and a 1% chance to get you something, its only fair, right?

 

Fact is everyone who didn't pick slicing and sells materials on GM got MORE credits per item when the slicing wasn't nerfed. Now everyone will get less money and everyone will have problems buying things they want. Now THAT's real fun.

 

I happen to agree with both of you. Yet nobody will ever listen, because its never enough to them. Which is sad. The truth is that people ARE being punished. I never had the chance to make any funds on slicing. And my other skills don't make me any money either. Slicing would have been my way out of being constantly broke and creditless. But, because of the vorpal nerfsword of punishing has been shoved in a unmentionable dark place of everyone's anatomy, the game is losing its "fun" edge. Why? because earning credits its a total PITA and a half. I LOVE farming, I LOVE going out and killing random monsters. But on Tatooine, I'm sick of it, because I don't get anything out of it. The is not fun when you hit a brick wall and you lose ALL your meager credits just to ATTEMPT to stay afloat. My characters are all poor. Thank you nerf loving whiny people. You are well on your way to ruining a good game. Congratulations for trolling the forums.

 

Perhaps slicing DID need to be tweaked, but not so bad that the skill is ruined. How about we all get together and spam forums saying how unfair other professions are because they get credits and force a nerf on them that is so bad you lose more than gain. It's ONLY fair you know. All skills should be 100% equal, right? So those missions your companions are running should cause you to LOSE atleast 80% of time, that's equal and totally fair.

 

See what nerf loving does?

[AdamHDMI]

This is the best post I have seen on the topic. I 100% agree with what you said. And before you QQ'ers attack me, yes I have tried slicing.