Gear Disparity

[trulam]

Returning player from ESO, WoW and DAOC (Rest in piece) and have noticed that the gap in PVP from fresh 70 to those in end game gear is so great there is zero fun or skill based into it. Im struggling, even as a Jug Tank, to stay competitive, comparing myself to other Jugs getting about the same protection I am but literally they deal 5x the damage.

 

Im noting that they are DPS geared, and even then its even more disheartening because they are doing better protection. I dont know how to fix this but gosh darn, bolster was better than this before I left the game.

 

Second, there are a multitude of bugs STILL not fixed, the Force Leap and fall through the earth bug, the "Characters not registering on what level they are" bug so you see them bounce up and down out of the ground and cant do anything to them. And even the Voidstar bug still where you can Op roll over the middle bridge without them being down and plant a bomb as the bridge falls.

 

Do they have no one at all working on things like this? I hate to come back just to be beaten down by it all but... damn... Even WoW's Legion PVP is more fair than this in BGs and WoW's terrible.

Edited March 19, 2017 by trulam

[AlCorazon]

Returning player from ESO, WoW and DAOC (Rest in piece) and have noticed that the gap in PVP from fresh 70 to those in end game gear is so great there is zero fun or skill based into it. Im struggling, even as a Jug Tank, to stay competitive, comparing myself to other Jugs getting about the same protection I am but literally they deal 5x the damage.

 

Im noting that they are DPS geared, and even then its even more disheartening because they are doing better protection. I dont know how to fix this but gosh darn, bolster was better than this before I left the game.

 

Second, there are a multitude of bugs STILL not fixed, the Force Leap and fall through the earth bug, the "Characters not registering on what level they are" bug so you see them bounce up and down out of the ground and cant do anything to them. And even the Voidstar bug still where you can Op roll over the middle bridge without them being down and plant a bomb as the bridge falls.

 

Do they have no one at all working on things like this? I hate to come back just to be beaten down by it all but... damn... Even WoW's Legion PVP is more fair than this in BGs and WoW's terrible.

 

Jugg tank is dead meat! Roll a Merc or a Sin tank!

[Eli_Porter]

Returning player from ESO, WoW and DAOC (Rest in piece) and have noticed that the gap in PVP from fresh 70 to those in end game gear is so great there is zero fun or skill based into it. Im struggling, even as a Jug Tank, to stay competitive, comparing myself to other Jugs getting about the same protection I am but literally they deal 5x the damage.

 

Im noting that they are DPS geared, and even then its even more disheartening because they are doing better protection. I dont know how to fix this but gosh darn, bolster was better than this before I left the game.

 

Tanks need a DPS gear-set, this has been the case for a long time now. With optimized bolstered gear (cheap), 6 set pieces (2-3 weeks of pvp at most) and a 240 hilt (2-3 mil? easily affordable if you do your pvp dailies+weeklies), the difference is barely 5% let alone 5x.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Schoock]

Returning player from ESO, WoW and DAOC (Rest in piece) and have noticed that the gap in PVP from fresh 70 to those in end game gear is so great there is zero fun or skill based into it. Im struggling, even as a Jug Tank, to stay competitive, comparing myself to other Jugs getting about the same protection I am but literally they deal 5x the damage.

 

Im noting that they are DPS geared, and even then its even more disheartening because they are doing better protection. I dont know how to fix this but gosh darn, bolster was better than this before I left the game.

 

As you've said yourself, they're wearing DPS gear and you aren't. That alone explains the damage difference. Protection doesn't depend on gear at all, not even spec. So if they're doing more protection than you, you're simply doing things wrong. (Or they're just better at it.)

 

And even the Voidstar bug still where you can Op roll over the middle bridge without them being down and plant a bomb as the bridge falls.

 

There is no bug here. Operatives cannot roll over the gap. They can use their leap, in stealth, but it requires a target, i. e. some fool from the enemy team to stand there.

[themachinemann]

Returning player from ESO, WoW and DAOC (Rest in piece) and have noticed that the gap in PVP from fresh 70 to those in end game gear is so great there is zero fun or skill based into it. Im struggling, even as a Jug Tank, to stay competitive, comparing myself to other Jugs getting about the same protection I am but literally they deal 5x the damage.

 

Im noting that they are DPS geared, and even then its even more disheartening because they are doing better protection. I dont know how to fix this but gosh darn, bolster was better than this before I left the game.

 

Second, there are a multitude of bugs STILL not fixed, the Force Leap and fall through the earth bug, the "Characters not registering on what level they are" bug so you see them bounce up and down out of the ground and cant do anything to them. And even the Voidstar bug still where you can Op roll over the middle bridge without them being down and plant a bomb as the bridge falls.

 

Do they have no one at all working on things like this? I hate to come back just to be beaten down by it all but... damn... Even WoW's Legion PVP is more fair than this in BGs and WoW's terrible.

 

It seems that, instead of trying to find out why you're underperforming, you just jump in and complain that it's not fair.

1) you're just back into the game and fresh into level 70. Saying that followed by "there is zero... skill based into it" is a glaring contradiction. Give it a bit of time to get your keybinds, augs, other gear (see point 2) positioning etc in order.

2) you're using the wrong gear set. Hilarious for a thread called "gear disparity". For pvp generally, tank gear doesn't do much defensively due to the current bias towards high crit and the fact guard damage isn't mitigated. It does even less offensively. Also please try to actually understand bolster before blaming it. The only areas that endgame gear significantly beats bolster is in your mh barrel/hilt. Buy a 240 from the gtn, problem solved. Augments also help and are really cheap.

3) you seem to be determined to tank. That's fair enough, it can be rewarding. Just note that the pvp tanking meta isn't about protection, peeling and facetanking 4 people indefinitely (reasons above). You need to do moderate dps on top of your protection or you're putting the team at a disadvantage. If you'd like, sure, start a thread to change the pvp tank meta to a classic meat shield. But blaming gear because you misunderstood said meta is stupid.

4) find a decent healer and queue with them.

5) bugs happen. Force leap bug happens, in my experience, incredibly rarely and only on very specific parts of the novare coast map. As noted, operatives can, under stealth, holotraverse (not roll) through the middle of the gap in voidstar. All it takes is someone standing right near the edge (as if that actually helps your team).

Edited March 20, 2017 by themachinemann

[Sam_K]

Hey, I recently came back myself, and just like you I'm playing a tank in PvP.

 

Just like in most MMORPGs, the gear needed to perform optimally in PvP is different than it is in PvE. In the case of a tank in SWTOR this means you need to gear for damage even if you're tanking. The role of a tank in SWTOR PvP is not to mitigate damage to yourself directly, but to pressure the enemy team with decent damage while preventing damage to your TEAM through taunts, guard and crowd control. CC, taunt and guard aren't effected by mitigating stats on your gear so your tank gear is giving you very little benefit for your tanking part, and it completely nerfs your damage.

 

With wearing 230 damage gear (can be crafted or bought from the trader, or found in command crates) , I'm putting out decent damage (not close to a real dps, but enough to contribute some burst), while adding some serious staying power to my team by constantly snaring, debuffing, stunning and taunting the enemy dps.

[Foambreaker]

They set bolster below max gear, it is not just your class, it is all over

 

You and every other new 70: 228 or less, no set bonuses, bolster to 230

 

Everyone else: 242, full set bonuses

 

They will tell you there is no difference and anyone who complains is just not skilled

 

If there is no difference they should just raise bolster to equal max gear

[Eli_Porter]

1. Bolster is 232, not 230.

2. Your natural, datacron, augment, and crystal stats make the bolster difference less significant

3. The most important part of the bolster difference is your hilt/barrel which can be crafted or bought at 240.

[sithlordvarzi]

I also began tanking in PVP and struggled just like you did. Basically, since the recent bolster nerf its almost impossible to compete when you first reach lvl 70. As the other people stated you are going to need to gear up and get full augments. Even then its not guaranteed that you will do well. But keep grinding, gearing, and working on what works in the warzone and itll work out eventually!

[verfallen]

tbh, while the 1st bolster of 5.0 meant that gear at very little impact (actually undergearing was sometimes a better idea) the current one is much better than say what it was in 4.0 as term of coming into WZ.

 

First, augmenting is a must if you want to be competitive at anything, and seeing as your gear will serve both in pve and pvp it is probably the best investment you can make right now upon reaching lvl 70 (or 68, as the augment are lower level)

 

Its also crucial at min-maxing as the augment allows finer tuning of your tertiary stats, and transfer into power when you hit higher DR on 240-242.

 

Also, you can craft and instantly get 240 once you have at least one toon in end-game for your alt, as in the past you had to grind every set of gear for any alt you had.

 

Also, while someone in 242 will have a small advantage in term of damage, PvP is not dummy bashing. Its cooldown managing, and also correctly managing the cooldowns of the class you are fighting via your own, your stuns, your mez, and your choice of attack.

 

Even for healer, while your max output is not as much as a geared healer, your ability to triage and keep the hps up when under pressure are much more important than your total output.

 

So its entirely possible to top the leaderboard even in sub optimal gear while you get new gear from crates and components, or at the very least be a productive member of the team.

[themachinemann]

They set bolster below max gear, it is not just your class, it is all over

wrong. how is it over? it's always been like this. except before there were also noobs that had no idea about expertise.

You and every other new 70: 228 or less, no set bonuses, bolster to 230

wrong. bolster is 232.

Everyone else: 242, full set bonuses

wrong. few actually have full 242, especially since there's no way to convert 240 to 242 or 234 to 236. many at rank 300 are nowhere near full 242. honestly grinding and hoping for that 242 piece isn't worth the time and most move to other characters.

They will tell you there is no difference and anyone who complains is just not skilled

wrong. there is a difference, it's just not gamebreaking. skill easily covers and exceeds that gap.

side note, why not just buy 240 mods/enhancements/mh etc and test for yourself?

If there is no difference they should just raise bolster to equal max gear

so... go start a thread discussing the notion of gear progression in pvp. suggest alternative rewards? ranked 8's? good idea.

Edited March 21, 2017 by themachinemann

[t-darko]

Quite interesting approach to QQ the returning player, for not knowing or keeping up while being away. And I dare say that damage output/reduction is gear dependent no matter what keybinds you use on your ToS violating hardware. Edited March 21, 2017 by t-darko

[Icykill_]

To the OP, you have every right to be pissed and vent. Don't listen to people attacking you.

 

Gear gap is to big.. I don't care what anyone says.. I've researched and tested Bolster for years and written guides... Bolster is now set too low for it to reduce the gear discrepancy it was originally designed to do.

Gearing isn't easy for everyone, there are far less dedicated pvpers who put in enough time to gear up. I play daily and I've not got one 240 piece yet. Some people are lucky and others aren't.

Credits aren't also easy to come by for everyone. You don't get many for only pvping and now Med packs are 1000 per item. It might seem simple for people to have millions of credits, but that just isn't the reality for the casual player.

Classes are not set to fulfill roles properly, tanks should be tanks, not hybrid dps... but that's another issue for another time.

Etc etc etc...

Enough said.. pvp is in a sorry state, the worst I've seen since launch... add the lowbie (and soon mid) pvp bot infection and people just can't be bothered to learn before the lvl 70 grind fest.

Even if they are geared, they are so terrible because they are trying to learn to pvp in what is essentially end game pvp instead of learning in lowbies and mids.

So not only do we have all the above issues, but the player quality is so bad that people rage quite when they lose a node.

The last straw and the biggest turn off for people entering lvl 70 pvp is the gear gap. Pvp is about skill vs skill. Not gear vs gear.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Icykill_

[Stellarcrusade]

So not only do we have all the above issues, but the player quality is so bad that people rage quite when they lose a node.

 

Interestingly, some people rage quit when they lose a node because they just assume the other team is better geared. So even veterans sometimes rage quit games now to get a queue they have a chance in.

[Schoock]

Interestingly, some people rage quit when they lose a node because they just assume the other team is better geared.

 

Have they actually said it in chat? Like, "Look guys, I'm gonna leave this wz, look at the gear you're in, and guess what they're in, sorry, we have no chance this way"?

 

Because I could name another reason for rage quitting, maybe more likely than the actual or imagined gear disparity, and that would be "This team just sucks, let's g t f o, this is a waste of time".

Edited March 21, 2017 by Schoock

[t-darko]

Have they actually said it in chat? Like, "Look guys, I'm gonna leave this wz, look at the gear you're in, and guess what they're in, sorry, we have no chance this way"?

 

Because I could name another reason for rage quitting, maybe more likely than the actual or imagined gear disparity, and that would be "This team just sucks, let's g t f o, this is a waste of time".

 

Cuilibet fatuo placet sua calva

[mmmbuddah]

Cuilibet fatuo placet sua calva

 

 

Too true.

[Bar-Da-Voya]

100% agree OP. PvP is so horrible right now. Can't even compete because keep getting matched against 240/242 geared premades when my team is barely in 230s. Need to increase bolster or institute some form of matchmaking (premade vs premade) or people will continue to quit PvP. I leave every warzone against top geared premades because it is no fun when my team cant compete. Edited March 21, 2017 by Bar-Da-Voya

[jedcjedcjedc]

they're always fully geared, and they're always premades. why do I doubt this?

[Schoock]

I leave every warzone against top geared premades because it is no fun when my team cant compete.

 

With all due respect, if your team is a PuG and you have that awesome top geared premade against you, you probably wouldn't stand a chance even if they were in 208s.

[Icykill_]

The best / most fun pvp has been Mids. Gear isn't an issue because Bolster basically looks after all stats. Yes there are some abilities discrepancies, but from lvl 40 you have enough to be competitive and you can't use gear as an excuse.

IMO all pvp should be bolstered in this way. It should solely be skill vs skill. Most dedicated pvpers don't even care about gear, they just want to be on a lvl footing with gear and stats.

The excuse / argument for CXP grind is to make players play longer and stay subscribed. But pvpers will play just as long regardless because we mainly want to pvp. Adding this sort of grind and gear discrepancy actually has the reverse affect on dedicated pvpers because we want skill vs skill pvp. I've seen most dedicated pvpers stop playing or reduce how long they play for.

 

I've suggested to Bioware there is a way to make both relevant with little or no effort on their part.

 

First increase Bolster so that there is hardly a noticeable difference between entry lvl gear and the highest, this usually needs to be set above the highest gear lvl to achieve that. Similar to how it was in 4.0 and 5.0 before they nerfed it.

 

Second, to keep CXP relevant and encourage casual pve players to keep pvping, they can keep the current CXP box drops and unassembled parts as pvp rewards per match. This allows pve or pvp people to collect gear for pve parts of the game. But they should reduce the rewards again for losing matches to encourage people to try and not make it as attractive to afk CXP farm. This wouldn't affect the rate people would need to gear for pvp because Bolster would have already taken care of it.

The only people it affects are people who don't try and think pvp is just an easy source to farm CXP with zero effort, which they can't do in any other part of the game without participating.

It would be as it is now, except pvp would be skill vs skill. More ledgitmate people would enjoy the experience and be more likely to keep playing. The only people who would be upset by this are those who want a gear advantage over others or want any easy way to afk farm or not try in pvp.

 

Third, I would close the loop hole that allows lvl 70 F2P people the ability to queue with subscribers to get into lvl 70 pvp. They can keep the system for mids and lowbies, but it should be just like CXP and be limited to subs only. This encourages F2P to either buy a pvp pass on the GTN, CM or Subscribe.

IMO if those suggestions were implemented it would stop the rapid decline in the quality of pvp and help grow the pvp community again by making it Skill vs skill and still encouraging pve people to participate and have an enjoyable experience.

[EzMaCx]

I my self just started playing again, got lvl 70 and realize that gear-wise i'm forever behind.... I'm not going to resub next month just because i'm too far behind there's no point in even trying to gear up now and pvp

[verfallen]

I my self just started playing again, got lvl 70 and realize that gear-wise i'm forever behind.... I'm not going to resub next month just because i'm too far behind there's no point in even trying to gear up now and pvp

 

actually with 5.2 hiting the "first" tier is going to up to 236, so getting to 242 is going to be fast. They're also modifying drop rate to gear faster, so you won't be "too much" behind. Work on getting your command level up on at least one toon, and you'll be able to craft 240 and whatever the new tier purple will be as well probably pretty fast. You gain CXP at a very good rate right now doing SM ops and PvP, especially with the cxp boost you can get with your tokens.

[Icykill_]

actually with 5.2 hiting the "first" tier is going to up to 236, so getting to 242 is going to be fast. They're also modifying drop rate to gear faster, so you won't be "too much" behind. Work on getting your command level up on at least one toon, and you'll be able to craft 240 and whatever the new tier purple will be as well probably pretty fast. You gain CXP at a very good rate right now doing SM ops and PvP, especially with the cxp boost you can get with your tokens.

 

There will still be a noticeable gear gap because they aren't going to increase Bolster enough. Casual players will always be behind the 8 ball, while people able to play 20 hours a week will farm them in pvp.

It's certainly not enticing for the causal player to get farmed by highly geared players every time they pvp.

[Stellarcrusade]

There will still be a noticeable gear gap because they aren't going to increase Bolster enough. Casual players will always be behind the 8 ball, while people able to play 20 hours a week will farm them in pvp.

It's certainly not enticing for the causal player to get farmed by highly geared players every time they pvp.

 

This is EXACTLY the problem. Top level pvp is not for casual players or players who are just returning anymore, its only for those 20hr per week people.