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Too many abilities for Combat


Reeny

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Playing my Jedi Shadow and Sith Warrior and there are way too many abilities now.

Several of which kind of overlap each other.

 

The sheer number of abilities really distract from the core combat.

 

SWTOR should really trim down and combine the abilities.

Let people enjoy the combat rather than mash buttons nonstop.

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My feeling exactly.

Most modern MMOs trimmed down your rotations to 5 main skills +3-4 supplementary.

It is a sort of primitivization for ye olde*** gamer, sure, but TOR skillsets do feel unnecessarily overcomplicated after any other game.

Mind you, it's not too hard to adjust - your skill trees provide the basis already, it's just a question of getting rid of / combining the other skills.

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Maybe i'm just bad, but based on my assassin, in PVE both dps specs have a basic attack rotation with 6 abilities, and this is the case for more or less two or even three years. There didn't really changed much in the sheer numbers of our active abilities. Whenever i change spec there are like 4 or 5 abilities i need to rearrange on my bars, the most important skills of the spec, the others are either unimportant once in a while use or highly situational.

 

Bioware increased levelcap but didn't nessecarily add new abilities each time, with the assassin for example, abilities i used to have with 65, were just moved a few levels up, i had to regain them by leveling.

> the proc of a 3static charge discharge when using phantom stride, was just moved to i think 68. Same with the tank although i don't remeber which ability or proc it was exactly, only that it felt weird when leveling through FPs without it after being used to it for a year.

 

Don't know much of the other classes or the warrior DPS specs, but my jugg has some new shiny icons, but not really a new abilitiy. Tanking with him in FPs is the same as it was before 5.0. I can't even remember if there were big changes with 4.0. or any new abilities except of mad dash. Same with my healing operative, there is something new, but therefore something else was taken away and something else just got a new icon.

 

Back to the Assassin:

 

Deception got a new sword attack with reaping strike, but with 18 seconds it has a long CD compared to the others, the rest is the same as it was before 5.0. While it has a really nice style and i like it a lot, in the end you use it when it's procced and you have none of your hard hitting abilities to use. Before you would fish for procs with voltaic slash or the simple saber strike >boring, now you have reaping strike to use once in a while. For myself i can say that i like reaping strike a lot more and feel that the flow of the deception game play is much more fun these days.

Especially as deception got some of the non attacking side effect abilities you used once in a while for better force management merged into passives, like blackout was made passive and the buff why it was needed was moved to maul. So in fact you now have less abilities to think about than before.

 

Hatred spec abilities didn't really change much since the end of the 2.0 cycle, at least not as far the abilities used in the basic rotation are concerned. The dot spread moved from death field to lacerate but it was already used in aoe situations before, so nothing changed with the number of abilities, only with how important which ability is or the range they have.

 

Then there are some abilities to use once every minute or in specific situations, like recklessness or force cloak, overcharge saber or DCDs for example. Deception uses Phantom stride rotationally but once every 30 seconds should be managable i think.

 

The tank has also 6 base abilities, if you want to count lacerate used in aoe situations too, there are 7. With shock, wither, dark ward and the 3 melee abilities you can tank everything there is. You'll probably could do better especially when it comes to the more difficult aspects of the game like NIM encounters, but although most players don't do NIM operations on that level, that can't be the measuring stick and would be unfair towards the players using the other abilities there for special occasions.

Of course the tank has his DCDs that come on top, but those are situational and not rotational.

Crushing darkness was taken away for the tank by the way, it was rarely used but there were situations where it had its merits.

 

You can always use more abilities for very specific situations, but you get by without them too, most of the time the difference is small. Or some have specific uses only in PVE or only in PVP. In the end it would be the difference between a good or average player and an excellent one. The latter knows when to add what to the basic game play, but as said before that is highly situational.

 

I don't think that this is bad, i would expect from a good player to learn which abilities he needs and which are not that important but have merits in special cases.

The problem with Swtor is though that the game doesn't support you much there. We have more and more abilities most players never use because big parts of the game are streamlined and made more easy, that, while still usefull for 'proper' gameplay, you don't actually activate them often or not at all. Interrupt is such an ability

That trash mob ability you would have interupted with a stun or knock back before 4.0 for example, because the direct interrupt ability already had to be used seconds before, today your companion just heals through both attacks. But using this as a measuring stick would leave us with with more or less the basic attacks, as it is possible to get to 70 with nothing else. And it isn't really fun.

 

Having some very situational abilities also makes it more interesting if you are trying to squeeze out the most out of your class. For me it would be boring if there are only the few abilities used in the base rotation and nothing else, nothing to try out or to have for very specific situations. Low slash in PVE for example, rarely needed but it's the only attack at range the deception spec has. In PVP it is way more useful.

 

I like to have alternatives, to need to think about special uses of my not so often used abilities. Like spike and electrocute against the revanite commanders or against big trash groups as a tank, highly situational in PVE, but i would miss the opportunity to help my group that way if they would be taken away.

I like that some abilities a meant for PVP other for PVE, though both have still some use vice versa

 

Though I would support game changes, to help the player to better learn what is base rotation and what is situational. But please do not take abilities away only because they aren't used all the time.

 

As an anecdote:

Playing Darksiders currently, it would be the difference between me, the console game newb, literally smashing buttons for basic attacks and that guy who is able to memorize and use all these fancy attack combos.

Playing normal difficulty i get by with my style and have fun, but watching someone using all these sepcial attacks is awesome too. For him the game would become blatantly boring, if those were taken away, just because a lot of newbs like me don't use them.

Edited by Khaleijo
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Playing my Jedi Shadow and Sith Warrior and there are way too many abilities now.

Several of which kind of overlap each other.

 

(The sheer number of abilities really distract from the core combat.)

 

SWTOR should really trim down and combine the abilities.

Let people enjoy the combat rather than mash buttons nonstop.

--your insane if you think that there are to many abilities, go play league of legends or a moba, that sounds more like a game for you.

Mashing Buttons is good gameplay they actualy have the perfect amount of abilities, go look at what world of warcraft did, they trimmed abilities and now every class feels the same.

 

what else can people complain about??? lmfao to many abilities ??? really man

Edited by Spoonwithyou
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Maybe i'm just bad, but based on my assassin, in PVE both dps specs have a basic attack rotation with 6 abilities, and this is the case for more or less two or even three years. There didn't really changed much in the sheer numbers of our active abilities. Whenever i change spec there are like 4 or 5 abilities i need to rearrange on my bars, the most important skills of the spec, the others are either unimportant once in a while use or highly situational.

 

Bioware increased levelcap but didn't nessecarily add new abilities each time, with the assassin for example, abilities i used to have with 65, were just moved a few levels up, i had to regain them by leveling.

> the proc of a 3static charge discharge when using phantom stride, was just moved to i think 68. Same with the tank although i don't remeber which ability or proc it was exactly, only that it felt weird when leveling through FPs without it after being used to it for a year.

 

Don't know much of the other classes or the warrior DPS specs, but my jugg has some new shiny icons, but not really a new abilitiy. Tanking with him in FPs is the same as it was before 5.0. I can't even remember if there were big changes with 4.0. or any new abilities except of mad dash. Same with my healing operative, there is something new, but therefore something else was taken away and something else just got a new icon.

 

Back to the Assassin:

 

Deception got a new sword attack with reaping strike, but with 18 seconds it has a long CD compared to the others, the rest is the same as it was before 5.0. While it has a really nice style and i like it a lot, in the end you use it when it's procced and you have none of your hard hitting abilities to use. Before you would fish for procs with voltaic slash or the simple saber strike >boring, now you have reaping strike to use once in a while. For myself i can say that i like reaping strike a lot more and feel that the flow of the deception game play is much more fun these days.

Especially as deception got some of the non attacking side effect abilities you used once in a while for better force management merged into passives, like blackout was made passive and the buff why it was needed was moved to maul. So in fact you now have less abilities to think about than before.

 

Hatred spec abilities didn't really change much since the end of the 2.0 cycle, at least not as far the abilities used in the basic rotation are concerned. The dot spread moved from death field to lacerate but it was already used in aoe situations before, so nothing changed with the number of abilities, only with how important which ability is or the range they have.

 

Then there are some abilities to use once every minute or in specific situations, like recklessness or force cloak, overcharge saber or DCDs for example. Deception uses Phantom stride rotationally but once every 30 seconds should be managable i think.

 

The tank has also 6 base abilities, if you want to count lacerate used in aoe situations too, there are 7. With shock, wither, dark ward and the 3 melee abilities you can tank everything there is. You'll probably could do better especially when it comes to the more difficult aspects of the game like NIM encounters, but although most players don't do NIM operations on that level, that can't be the measuring stick and would be unfair towards the players using the other abilities there for special occasions.

Of course the tank has his DCDs that come on top, but those are situational and not rotational.

Crushing darkness was taken away for the tank by the way, it was rarely used but there were situations where it had its merits.

 

You can always use more abilities for very specific situations, but you get by without them too, most of the time the difference is small. Or some have specific uses only in PVE or only in PVP. In the end it would be the difference between a good or average player and an excellent one. The latter knows when to add what to the basic game play, but as said before that is highly situational.

 

I don't think that this is bad, i would expect from a good player to learn which abilities he needs and which are not that important but have merits in special cases.

The problem with Swtor is though that the game doesn't support you much there. We have more and more abilities most players never use because big parts of the game are streamlined and made more easy, that, while still usefull for 'proper' gameplay, you don't actually activate them often or not at all. Interrupt is such an ability

That trash mob ability you would have interupted with a stun or knock back before 4.0 for example, because the direct interrupt ability already had to be used seconds before, today your companion just heals through both attacks. But using this as a measuring stick would leave us with with more or less the basic attacks, as it is possible to get to 70 with nothing else. And it isn't really fun.

 

Having some very situational abilities also makes it more interesting if you are trying to squeeze out the most out of your class. For me it would be boring if there are only the few abilities used in the base rotation and nothing else, nothing to try out or to have for very specific situations. Low slash in PVE for example, rarely needed but it's the only attack at range the deception spec has. In PVP it is way more useful.

 

I like to have alternatives, to need to think about special uses of my not so often used abilities. Like spike and electrocute against the revanite commanders or against big trash groups as a tank, highly situational in PVE, but i would miss the opportunity to help my group that way if they would be taken away.

I like that some abilities a meant for PVP other for PVE, though both have still some use vice versa

 

Though I would support game changes, to help the player to better learn what is base rotation and what is situational. But please do not take abilities away only because they aren't used all the time.

 

As an anecdote:

Playing Darksiders currently, it would be the difference between me, the console game newb, literally smashing buttons for basic attacks and that guy who is able to memorize and use all these fancy attack combos.

Playing normal difficulty i get by with my style and have fun, but watching someone using all these sepcial attacks is awesome too. For him the game would become blatantly boring, if those were taken away, just because a lot of newbs like me don't use them.

 

nice wall of text explains nothing, your looking at this in a 2d perspective.

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WoW has about a billion and that's an underestimate.

You played legion much?

Sure, I remember having 46 skills on my hunter up til Cata, but now...3-5 button rotations for MM/BM and a fairly more "complex" 7-button Surv hunter

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Playing my Jedi Shadow and Sith Warrior and there are way too many abilities now.

Several of which kind of overlap each other.

 

The sheer number of abilities really distract from the core combat.

 

SWTOR should really trim down and combine the abilities.

Let people enjoy the combat rather than mash buttons nonstop.

 

But the combat is a nonstop ability usage until whatever in combat is dead. Doesnt make any sense, even if there was just two abilites, you'd still be mashing two buttons nonstop. This post sounds like laziness to me, another give me something for nothing mentality.

 

I enjoy the fight on my Jugg Veng, using all the abilities and the animations they give.

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In my experience there are always too many skills untill you've learned your class/spec. Then everything is just where it should be and have it's uses. even if some of them are situational.

Also I'd like to see what people consider overlaping abilities. Not that I gave a lot of thought to it but nothing comes to mind right now.

Edited by Lesheren
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Not all classes are the same. Trust me, I've the same setup for each class. Some have way more abilities than others unless some bugged out on me. You'll find you won't use them all anyway. They all have various cooldowns though and I use most all but the noxious darts one on my operative. My sentinel and mara have fewer skills or it seems that way and my assassin as a lot less skills than all of them.

 

But...it'd still be button mashing whether you have 3 or 33 unless you take out combat.

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{If only players had the choice of what skills they want to use, and which to ignore except for certain situations.} :rolleyes:

 

Seriously... is it required that the studio hold every hand every day, and fine tune game mechanics so that players never actually have to make choices for themselves? Seriously? You can't sort through your abilities and decide what is most applicable to your play style? Really???

 

Personally, I'd rather have more abilities, rather then fewer. That gives me the choice on what to use when, and what to completely ignore.

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A high number of abilities is pretty necessary for a game with such simplified character controls. You don't get complex movement mechanics, you don't have to aim manually for your skills to hit , and you don't have to kite and dodge groups of mobs while you kill them.

 

Games like Action RPG's and some modern MMO's can get away with as little as 5-10 hotkeys because character control is more of a factor there. Classic MMORPG fights are more static in nature and so there's room for more skills.

 

Also OP I suggest you try GSF. It's a great example of character control over skill management.

Edited by Eli_Porter
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What are you really serious??

 

Blade Rush

Lance

Precision

Dispatch

Clashing blast

Zealous Strike

Dual saber throw

 

The rotation is so simple and smooth, you need to know what to use when Precision is on Cooldown and use your high hit abilities inside the 3sec Precision window.

You have only 1 filler that is dual saber throw, the rest is part of core rotation, once you learn how to maintain focus enough to burst and sustain outside of Precision window then you dominate the spec.

It's a L2P issue, the rotation is NOT complicated

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What are you really serious??

 

Blade Rush

Lance

Precision

Dispatch

Clashing blast

Zealous Strike

Dual saber throw

 

The rotation is so simple and smooth, you need to know what to use when Precision is on Cooldown and use your high hit abilities inside the 3sec Precision window.

You have only 1 filler that is dual saber throw, the rest is part of core rotation, once you learn how to maintain focus enough to burst and sustain outside of Precision window then you dominate the spec.

It's a L2P issue, the rotation is NOT complicated

 

Yep. Easy as. Operative/smuggler have more

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Not all classes are the same. Trust me, I've the same setup for each class. Some have way more abilities than others unless some bugged out on me. You'll find you won't use them all anyway. They all have various cooldowns though and I use most all but the noxious darts one on my operative. My sentinel and mara have fewer skills or it seems that way and my assassin as a lot less skills than all of them.

 

But...it'd still be button mashing whether you have 3 or 33 unless you take out combat.

 

Well it depends on the type of abilities and their interdependence on other abilities that make it more taxing than just the combat part of the equation. I beleive there is definitely ability bloat is swtor, and I think the devs have no choice but to keep adding abilities. So that it seems like they are doing something when they add new levels. However, as a result, I, like others find myself having to watch my hotbar more than I get to actually watch the fight.

Edited by Darkside
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I guess it all depends how well you mentally compartmentalize stuff.

 

Instant single target, channeled single target, instant ranged AoE, power-restoration ability, taunt, stun, interrupt, debuff, DOT, HOT, instant heal, combat rez, operation buff, invis, threat reduction, guard.

 

All serve a purpose and I'm glad to have them.

I'd hate to get the game so dumbed down that we're left with two buttons, attack and heal.

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I guess it all depends how well you mentally compartmentalize stuff.

 

Instant single target, channeled single target, instant ranged AoE, power-restoration ability, taunt, stun, interrupt, debuff, DOT, HOT, instant heal, combat rez, operation buff, invis, threat reduction, guard.

 

All serve a purpose and I'm glad to have them.

I'd hate to get the game so dumbed down that we're left with two buttons, attack and heal.

Attack, heal, zoom, knife? :p

 

I think the skills we have are PERFECT! I'd hate to see one less because I use every single one of mine at certain times. I can't imagine PvP without my knockback to save my healer, or my stun to give my teammate time to cap, or my interrupt to stop a single attack/heal...we have a lot of skills, I agree...but I use every single one of them in PvP. Fewer skills would not make the game better at all.

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Attack, heal, zoom, knife? :p

 

I think the skills we have are PERFECT! I'd hate to see one less because I use every single one of mine at certain times. I can't imagine PvP without my knockback to save my healer, or my stun to give my teammate time to cap, or my interrupt to stop a single attack/heal...we have a lot of skills, I agree...but I use every single one of them in PvP. Fewer skills would not make the game better at all.

 

I agree with this completely. I would like add though, I wish they would unchain circumstantial abilities. Just let us use the abilities without having to wait for another ability to proc etc.

Edited by Darkside
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A lot of these problems can be solved by adding smart skill buttons. You know, where if a skill triggers another skill it replaces the icon for the duration of the trigger, then reverts back to the original skill. Or when an aoe skill is on cooldown it would switch to your basic, lesser, aoe skill until the big one is back up again.

An alternative would be being able to make your own macros to do this for you.

The main problem i have is not the amount of skills per sé, but the amount of fiddling you have to do to use them all.

I'm probably not skilled enough to switch quickbars efficiently enough in battle, but i end up ignoring the skills i can't fit into 2 quickbars. And most of these skills are 45s-3m cooldown skills which, altho important, are wasting quickbar slots for the majority of a fight.

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I rearranged my interface so I have the direct combat abilities in the middle. I have 9 at my disposal. 1-3 additional abilities that I rarely use are seperate from that like healing spells on my madness sorcerer. My healer has also 9 abilities and the rest seperate.

 

I dont know what some other people are playing but when you move your keybinds from the left side of your keyboard to the right side you can control combat much easier and hardly have to stretch as much. Even moving and pushing 1-9 on the keypad is very easy.

Its just that most people have the impression that WASD is the only way to control your character. Its not. Use your keyboard better, opimize your keybinds and no matter how many abilities you CAN use, you will be able to control it. If you cant control it, dont complain. Asking for the game to be DUMBED DOWN TO YOUR LEVEL is the reason there are warnings on sponges in certain countries.

 

You suck, not the game.

Edited by Zasszz
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