This Game Is No Longer A MMO

[Genada]

This game right now does not really have what it takes to be a mmo anymore. It lacks end game content and it lacks new group content. This has been a long term problem and even expansions fail to bring either.

 

For a person to want to have a sub to a game they need to have reasons and those reasons are progression. These expansions are little more then dlc content. They are worth getting a month worth of a sub to play and then walking away again because they fail to provide new group content.

 

SWToR as a single player game and as a successor to KoToR does a decent job at. As a mmo it fails.

 

GTO V Online isn't a mmo but it creates more group content then SWToR. It does more to create player interaction then SWToR. When a none mmo is better at creating end game group content, when it does more to promote players playing with each other then your mmo does, you know you have failed badly.

[DarthDymond]

Well, this game has:

• Nine Operations (plus two single-boss Ops, and two Event-only single-boss Ops)
  
• Twenty-Seven Flashpoints
  
• Ten Uprisings (five of which just dropped two days ago)
  
• Numerous World Bosses
  
• Seven 8v8 Warzones and Five 4v4 Warzone Arenas
  
• Galactic Starfighter PVP
  

...so, I'd certainly say it's an MMO.

 

If it's not putting out enough new group-focused content fast enough to hold your interest, or if the community isn't active enough to hold your interest, those are perfectly valid reasons for a person to say "I don't like this game" - but it has more than enough "traditional MMO" content existing in it to justify the label even if they stopped putting out new group-focused content altogether.

 

Beyond that, "It's not an MMO unless it regularly releases new group content" is not a universal definition of an MMO.

 

If that is your definition, then fine - "MMO" isn't some scientific or legal classification where there is a 'correct' definition - but don't be surprised when other people look at a game that has dozens of group-play options in it and say "yeah, this is an MMO" even if it's not frequently releasing new content of that sort.

[Talon_strikes]

I have to admit that, for the most part, SWTOR does an online singleplayer RPG really well, but at least for the past 2½ years has been failing as an MMO. I don't mean the latter in any sort of antagonistic sort of way, but I mainly play this game to get my Star Wars MMO fix and since this game was marketed as an MMO since its inception I expect for it to be treated as such. I really do miss the vanilla SWTOR days and I hope that the devs can recapture that feeling again and execute it--the game desperately needs it.

[Talon_strikes]

Well, this game has:

• Nine Operations (plus two single-boss Ops, and two Event-only single-boss Ops)
  
• Twenty-Seven Flashpoints
  
• Ten Uprisings (five of which just dropped two days ago)
  
• Numerous World Bosses
  
• Seven 8v8 Warzones and Five 4v4 Warzone Arenas
  
• Galactic Starfighter PVP
  

...so, I'd certainly say it's an MMO.

 

If it's not putting out enough new group-focused content fast enough to hold your interest, or if the community isn't active enough to hold your interest, those are perfectly valid reasons for a person to say "I don't like this game" - but it has more than enough "traditional MMO" content existing in it to justify the label even if they stopped putting out new group-focused content altogether.

 

Beyond that, "It's not an MMO unless it regularly releases new group content" is not a universal definition of an MMO.

 

If that is your definition, then fine - "MMO" isn't some scientific or legal classification where there is a 'correct' definition - but don't be surprised when other people look at a game that has dozens of group-play options in it and say "yeah, this is an MMO" even if it's not frequently releasing new content of that sort.

Not for the veterans who've been here since launch or for a few years now. The direction the game has been going now for the past 2½ years basically makes it feel like singleplayer RPG with co-op aspects.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Talon_strikes

[tummiswtor]

15$ / month for Single-Player game. They know how to make a deal

[DarthDymond]

Not for the veterans who've been here since launch or for a few years now. The direction the game has been going now for the past 2½ years basically makes it feel like singleplayer RPG with co-op aspects.

I have been here since launch. Still feels like an MMO to me.

 

If the type or rate of content being released doesn't suit your tastes, again that's perfectly valid and a legitimate reason to say the game isn't for you, but calling it a single player game when it has this many multiplayer components still strikes me as a stretch.

Edited January 26, 2017 by DarthDymond

[RudbekAlliance]

You're better off saying the game is no longer a theme park MMO, as a number of people will come in and obfuscate what you are trying to get at in this post by talking about the many varying definitions of an MMO.

 

It certainly feels like the game would rather be a single player experience along the lines of a Halo campaign instead of a theme park style MMO as it would have been construed in the past.

[FerkWork]

Lol people just realizing this now and lol at the guy citing content that is mostly 2-5 years old lol sry that's not how it works Try again lol. Game chose to die as an MMO 2 years ago. After the failure of SP story, they are desperately trying to be one again but without the funds or competent developers. We have been paying for a SP game no matter what people would deny which is fine but even the SP content has been lacking quality in areas. Housing game decent though lol. Why this triggers people especially weirdly people who only play solo content the most is strange to me. WoW, FFXIV, and ESO are MMOs and if your looking for an MMO any are a good choice.

 

For lozy compare FF 3.5 notes to Swtor patch notes from 5.0 is lel.

 

Now to check on my Chocobo. :3

Edited January 26, 2017 by FerkWork

[HuaRya]

Well, this game has:

• Nine Operations (plus two single-boss Ops, and two Event-only single-boss Ops)
  
• Twenty-Seven Flashpoints
  
• Ten Uprisings (five of which just dropped two days ago)
  
• Numerous World Bosses
  
• Seven 8v8 Warzones and Five 4v4 Warzone Arenas
  
• Galactic Starfighter PVP
  

 

Too bad the 25 light populated servers don't allow you to get a pop for most of that unless it's that prime time window of 8pm-10pm and when it does pop you play with the same 'big fish in a small pond' premades. Also, unless you are in a guild you can forget world bosses or dps'ing in an operation.

[Nefla]

As long as they keep the SP story content coming I'm happy ^_^ this game has always been a SP BioWare game with multiplayer elements and that's why I play it. If it was your typical MMO I wouldn't have touched it with a 10 foot pole.

[Wayshuba]

Well, this game has:

• Nine Operations (plus two single-boss Ops, and two Event-only single-boss Ops)
  
• Twenty-Seven Flashpoints
  
• Ten Uprisings (five of which just dropped two days ago)
  
• Numerous World Bosses
  
• Seven 8v8 Warzones and Five 4v4 Warzone Arenas
  
• Galactic Starfighter PVP
  

...so, I'd certainly say it's an MMO.

 

 

Okay, for two to five year old content (except for the Uprisings, which I will get to in a minute), it is a PATHETIC amount of content for an MMO that is five years old.

 

Let's look at an MMO that is only three years old to this one being five years old. It has:

• 18 Raids (12 8 man and 6 24 man)
  
• 47 Dungeons
  
• 4 World Bosses
  
• 11 Mini-games
  
• 6 PvP modes (from 1v1 duels, to 72 player battles)
  

 

As for Uprisings, they are a complete joke. Cut and paste assets and maps to give the illusion of some group content being added. That they could do five of them in less than 60 days should show how little effort is needed to produce them. Funcom, a much, much smaller company did a lot more in their best comparable content known as scenarios, which cam e with issue 9. While those maps and mobs were reused assets from the game, they at least put some thought into them.

 

They have an objective to defend survivors from mobs.

They have unique systems rewards (augments) that help enhance your character and their skills more (and they are the only way to get them).

They have random events and bosses which changes the dynamic of each and every scenario.

They can be played solo, duo or as a group.

They have FOUR levels of difficulty (from Novice up to Nightmare).

 

This is what some small content, even reusing assets, looks like when more than five minutes of thought is put into it.

 

If your a sub paying $180/year, you should expect something NEW for your money. Not two resets on gear to play the same content you have done a thousand times over.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Wayshuba

[Genada]

As long as they keep the SP story content coming I'm happy ^_^ this game has always been a SP BioWare game with multiplayer elements and that's why I play it. If it was your typical MMO I wouldn't have touched it with a 10 foot pole.

 

That's fine and for those happy with that, enjoy.

 

The problem tho is this was suppose to be a real mmo. The WoW killer. When this game first came out it really seemed like it could be that and it was a real mmo.

 

Then they seemed to fail to grasp that a real mmo has content updates and has progression as far as both story and game goes. They do not do that and have not done that other then expansions. For a game that they would hope players would stay and play, something any mmo wants this game fails and it fails because they seem to lack any understanding of how a mmo works.

 

We the players are also at fault here for expecting something different from people that have proven they either lack the understanding or care about this game as far as keeping it a mmo. They clearly intend this to be a single player game with some online elements. It is not a mmo, stop acting like it is and quit expecting them to treat it as if it is. Pay for a single month and view the story and then take a break till they put out the next "expansion" and repeat. That's how this game deserves to be played.

 

On a side note: The gearing system is great because who cares about gear in a game with no end game progression. Not having to worry about gear and being able to do all new content in junk makes it that much more of a ease to walk away from without worry.

[Christie_Swift]

Indeed an MMO if you like to "grind" till your eyes bleed to get anything decent past story content and end game.

[Vember]

Indeed an MMO if you like to "grind" till your eyes bleed to get anything decent past story content and end game.

 

I've played a lot of MMO's, and I find SWTOR's "grind" to be pretty mild.

[Christie_Swift]

I've played a lot of MMO's, and I find SWTOR's "grind" to be pretty mild.

 

I do too...any normal person would not call this PRETTY mild:

 

Here is the math for the gear. Forgot who did it, but here you go

 

Some math (just for tier 1 as my brain doesn't even want to consider tier 2 or tier 3):

1290 components are required for a full set of tier 1.

Assuming a 50% regular unranked warzone win percentage ==> (5 + 2) / 2 = 3.5 components per warzone

1290 / 3.5 = ~369 regular warzones to get tier 1......*passes out*

Assuming a casual dude such as myself runs 5 warzones per day ==> 369 / 5 = 73.8 days to get tier 1

 

So I followed up on this...didn't read past this to see if anyone else had...but once tier 1 is complete it will be another 486 matches and once tier 2 is complete another 730 matches!!!

Freaking insane!!! In total that is 1585 total matches and assuming the 5 matches per day that puts you at 317 DAYS!!! That is roughly 10.5 MONTHS!!!

[SerraShar]

I played once an MMO..where you had to grind for 4 days before you could get 1 level .

 

In that same MMO , PVP was about cheating your way to the win . When you lose ? A random object from your inventory is given to the winner . And peoples cheated by running around Naked . Using Buff during the fight to win .

Oh the good stuff ? like for crafting ? You can only get them from the PVP area..where the few who PVP are waiting to jump on you..and none will help you lol .

 

So yeah..could be worse .

 

For me MMO...mean Seeing peoples roaming Around . Thats it..

[SithKoriandr]

This game right now does not really have what it takes to be a mmo anymore. It lacks end game content and it lacks new group content. This has been a long term problem and even expansions fail to bring either.

 

For a person to want to have a sub to a game they need to have reasons and those reasons are progression. These expansions are little more then dlc content. They are worth getting a month worth of a sub to play and then walking away again because they fail to provide new group content.

 

SWToR as a single player game and as a successor to KoToR does a decent job at. As a mmo it fails.

 

GTO V Online isn't a mmo but it creates more group content then SWToR. It does more to create player interaction then SWToR. When a none mmo is better at creating end game group content, when it does more to promote players playing with each other then your mmo does, you know you have failed badly.

 

WZ, OPs, the game has end game. It just hasn't had enough new end game to suit you.

 

I will agree the story missions don't give any team option, however, the way the story plays out, I'm not sure I'd want it too now.

 

Look at the original class story missions. Sure, I was able to go in and help my friends/guild members, but what did that matter, when the game treated me like I wasn't there Not that the one who had the class story would want the others interfering with their story anyways

[Darkside]

Okay, for two to five year old content (except for the Uprisings, which I will get to in a minute), it is a PATHETIC amount of content for an MMO that is five years old.

 

Let's look at an MMO that is only three years old to this one being five years old. It has:

• 18 Raids (12 8 man and 6 24 man)
  
• 47 Dungeons
  
• 4 World Bosses
  
• 11 Mini-games
  
• 6 PvP modes (from 1v1 duels, to 72 player battles)
  

 

As for Uprisings, they are a complete joke. Cut and paste assets and maps to give the illusion of some group content being added. That they could do five of them in less than 60 days should show how little effort is needed to produce them. Funcom, a much, much smaller company did a lot more in their best comparable content known as scenarios, which cam e with issue 9. While those maps and mobs were reused assets from the game, they at least put some thought into them.

 

They have an objective to defend survivors from mobs.

They have unique systems rewards (augments) that help enhance your character and their skills more (and they are the only way to get them).

They have random events and bosses which changes the dynamic of each and every scenario.

They can be played solo, duo or as a group.

They have FOUR levels of difficulty (from Novice up to Nightmare).

 

This is what some small content, even reusing assets, looks like when more than five minutes of thought is put into it.

 

If your a sub paying $180/year, you should expect something NEW for your money. Not two resets on gear to play the same content you have done a thousand times over.

 

Here's a little tidbit about uprisings. Data miners found them back before 5.0 and there was a long list of them already made. The devs have been staging their release to give the appearance that they are actually working on them, when the reality is they were already made.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Darkside

[FerkWork]

WZ, OPs, the game has end game. It just hasn't had enough new end game to suit you.

 

I will agree the story missions don't give any team option, however, the way the story plays out, I'm not sure I'd want it too now.

 

Look at the original class story missions. Sure, I was able to go in and help my friends/guild members, but what did that matter, when the game treated me like I wasn't there Not that the one who had the class story would want the others interfering with their story anyways

 

Suit him? It's been more than 2 years lol. Endgame is pretty much dead a time this point. If you think Swtor has Endgame that isn't years old content then you need to get off that peace pipe chief lol.

 

Meanwhile I get Story and raids in FF. :3

Edited January 26, 2017 by FerkWork

[SithKoriandr]

Suit him? It's been more than 2 years lol. Endgame is pretty much dead a time this point. If you think Swtor has Endgame that isn't years old content then you need to get off that peace pipe chief lol.

 

Meanwhile I get Story and raids in FF. :3

 

That's still endgame. Whether it's new or not. When did end game mean MUST BE NEW?

[FerkWork]

That's still endgame. Whether it's new or not. When did end game mean MUST BE NEW?

 

You for real? For PvE It's not endgame if there is no progression since the content has already been cleared many times. In PvP endgame is a joke without balance or new content. Furthermore side it's been pretty much abadoned there is very fewer and fewer people left running the it to the point it's irrelevant. Clearly you don't not do endgame other than perhaps faceroll rehashed uprisings and have zero idea what you are talking about. I'd love for them to go 2 years without Solo and story be funny to watch.

 

Meanwhile people who play endgame are off playing games with one.

 

It's a Singleplayer game. Don't know why people are upset by that fact since they chose that 2 years ago.

[ChainLighning]

As long as they keep the SP story content coming I'm happy ^_^ this game has always been a SP BioWare game with multiplayer elements and that's why I play it. If it was your typical MMO I wouldn't have touched it with a 10 foot pole.

 

I keep seeing things like this said and I really do not see how anyone can have this perspective in regards to the game always being a single player game.

 

I have been with the game heavily since early 2012....here is how it shaped up to me personally

 

During the development of this game, there was a tremendous amount of interest from gamers. A lot of people followed this game. Remember, this was 2010/2011, so the comparison at the time really was WoW, maybe an EQ, SWG, and other old school MMOs, but that was the lenses/measuring stick by and large players were using. There wasn't an ESO, FF, or other recently developed game to compare it to. Additionally, for the most part the BioWare name still had good reputation with the Dragon Age and Mass Effect success and more importantly the previous Star Wars games they had developed, KOTOR.

 

That last point is worth pausing for....when players begin to realize the game was not going to be KOTOR 3, it turned a lot of them away. There was some serious crying about the fact that this was an MMO and not the single player RPG so many people had seen from the studio previously. Therefore, when you say "has always been a single player game" you really aren't considering one of the biggest complaints from the players at launch. BioWare however moved past this and continued on with the MMO. At that time BioWare made an effort to show that this was an MMO with a story feature Again, people picked up on this and immediately thought "WoW with cutscenes. Sign me up" I literally knew people who thought this game would drastically impact WoW as so many were waiting for a Sci Fi MMO

 

Now continuing on...the game launches in late 2011. Servers are active and full, it is obvious there were a number of players exciting about the game. However, numbers quickly dropped...why? Well there were a number of reasons. First, the game was pretty buggy and poor performing. While there were already concerns about the "engine" things quickly moved into full "its the engines" fault mode. Second, players moved through the "story' content a lot quicker than what BioWare anticipated and when the players got to end game, guess what, they had nothing to do. Third, the fact it really was an MMO became really apparent. Remember leveling then was not as it is now. It took some people months to get to 50, and simply put they got bored.

 

Now in regards to the end game at launch; it was pretty much non existent. Eternity Vault comes along and for the most part the players like it, but of course it is buggy, so more of the "the engine" sucks stuff. On top of the KP was delayed, it was really intended to be ready sooner than it was, but if I remember correctly the first boss was really problematic, but it eventually launches and along with two raids the players have some daily areas.

 

However, the damage had been done. A lot of players left. BioWare scrambles and well here we go with Free To Play. This upset a lot of people. Remember originally on top of the subscription you had to buy this game. I think it was like $50 or $60 dollars, the collectors edition was $150, but you didn't just download it and go like today.

 

However, Free to Play/Cartel Market seemed to stop the bleeding, then we start seeing the game find a small niche. We get 1.2, which was a very nice patch. Then along comes 2.0, the Rise of the Hutt Cartel, which was not perfect, but new planet, new story, new dailies. On top of all this we see end game development. We see Explosive Conflict, TFB, and S&V all come along. Again, things aren't perfect, but there is a healthy balance of story, end game content, and some nice quality of life improvements. A core community really developed out of this. Then in fall of 2013 I think it was, we get Oricon, with another daily area, and two more operations, which were pretty well done. We see BioWare working in the various pillars of story, operations, and PVP. Are all of them perfect, no of course not, but healthy for the most part.

 

Now we move to 3.0, Shadow of Revan. Moderately well received but quickly released to be a little different than what we had hoped, and quite frankly buggy, especially in the operation department. Players are introduced to "hardmare" with the mechanics of story mode even being too much for some groups. On top of this the solo players are a little disappointed in the story aspects because we continue to see the loss of individual story for each of the classes. Did everyone feel this way? Certainly not I wouldn't pretend to speak for everyone. However, you can get a general sentiment from the players you play with and having been the GM of a large guild at that time, I heard these things a lot. For the most part people looked past this and continued to enjoy the game hoping future releases would be more like what we saw with 2.x. Boy were we in for a surprise.

 

With 4.x not only did BioWare abandon the niche they had built, they leveled it. The chapters, to me personally, were clearly aimed at the "we want KOTOR 3" crowd. We could debate why all day. Maybe BioWare got hurt from the harsh feedback on SoR, maybe it was greed by cutting cost, maybe it was the new team and simply their vision. We probably will never really know. What really hurt though was the fact BioWare really never came out and said "this is our go forward" we are moving away from the MMO model. Remember, actions speak louder than words and their silence was deafening to players who had supported two of the major pillars of this game for over three years.

 

Now, 5.x...and well we see where we are.

 

TL: DR BioWare with this game has a track record of saying one thing, doing another. Making and breaking promises. It has cost this community time and money to support this game. The game did not launch as a single player game. Not even close. It was an MMO with pillars of Story, PVP, and end game. The original problems the game had clearly support this.

 

I think that is why this stream tonight is so important. Which BioWare are we going to see in 2017? The one that gave us a healthy niche previously, the one that wrecked things with 5.0, or something entirely different?

Edited January 26, 2017 by ChainLighning

[SithKoriandr]

You for real? For PvE It's not endgame if there is no progression since the content has already been cleared many times. In PvP endgame is a joke without balance or new content. Furthermore side it's been pretty much abadoned there is very fewer and fewer people left running the it to the point it's irrelevant. Clearly you don't not do endgame other than perhaps faceroll rehashed uprisings and have zero idea what you are talking about. I'd love for them to go 2 years without Solo and story be funny to watch.

 

Meanwhile people who play endgame are off playing games with one.

 

It's a Singleplayer game. Don't know why people are upset by that fact since they chose that 2 years ago.

 

Been doing WZs actually I'm just curious as to what more is needed for it to be end game?

 

I see a new map and go "Wow. It's a new map, but still pvp. Still a team of 4-8 bashing on a team of 4-8."

 

What exactly is going to change in my WZ queueing if I got a new map? Some new map where every member of the team has to stand on their own square and defend it for points and do that for 10minutes?

 

Are you talking OPs? You're put at level 70 for them and they give this games version of a reward for that. So what different does that make, that it's not a new map, for an aspect of the game that requires a lot of people, but never seems to be PuG friendly?

 

FP! they can add a new FP, requires a team of four, be level 70 and you'd say "That's not end game." Why, because it's 4 person

 

Not to mention, the story is the only thing setting TOR apart from other MMOs, and they stopped doing that aspect of it to make it like every other MMO where it's one story for all.

[leehambly]

It was only ever a co-op, with a massive chat channel, at best anyway... you can stick a name on anything, doesn't make it so. Edited January 26, 2017 by leehambly

[Andryah]

You're better off saying the game is no longer a theme park MMO, as a number of people will come in and obfuscate what you are trying to get at in this post by talking about the many varying definitions of an MMO.

 

The obfuscation begins in this thread with the first post.

 

OP insists that only fresh OPs = an MMO. That is simple obfuscation right there.. what the OP really means is.... he wants new OPs. Why not just say it and stop with the hyperbole right up front?

 

This entire thread will become a flame fest for no other reason then the OP began with a distorted and pejorative premise for his wishes for more group content. We are getting more group content with each release in 5.0, but clearly that is not the type of group content OP wants. So.. that brings us back to him being unclear and deceptive about what he believes = the universal definition of the term "MMO".