Ops in 5.1 - Will unassembled pieces drop from every boss, or just the last boss?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

OK well that was far worse than expected. I thought guaranteed drops with it just being random as to what drops and then having to RNG for it.

 

So now instead of grind RNG we still have the option of grind RNG and we can also try for RNG then some more RNG and grind some token to use the result of the double RNG if we get lucky?

 

That sounds like a perfectly stupid system.

 

Curious - who at Bioware is loving this RNG so much they won't let it go?

[Pietrastor]

That's brilliant Eric.

 

You guys are offsetting the outcry against RNG by adding another layer of RNG.

 

Oh no Gabi. Not another layer of RNG. TWO NEW LAYERS OF RNG. First you need to get lucky for a piece to drop, THEN you need to get lucky to roll a winning number!!! Ain't you excited? All together with the old flaws of Unassembled Gear system returning such as ninjas.

 

This is getting ridiculous Eric, seriously.

 

Do NOT add Unassembled Gear tokens back. Make each Ops Boss drop Unassembled Components instead, like in planned PVP changes.

 

Seriously... Made a thread on suggesting simpler and CLEANER solution to this if anyone cares

Edited December 21, 2016 by Pietrastor

[jimmorrisson]

Substantially increasing CXP will solve may player issues regarding 5.0. More CXP means more command crates meaning more chances to get set pieces or even blue pieces at this point.

[DanNV]

Eric,

 

I am truly saddened to see you confirm my worst fears of how the proposed changes in 5.1 will work. I am saddened to see your dev team totally ignore the very blunt, straightforward feedback you have received regarding RNG for end-game gearing. And I am sad to see that the last dev stream was a total troll by BW towards it's paying customers. You have confirmed my worst thoughts about the SWTOR dev team.

 

It is hard for me to believe any dev team for any game can be so foolish as to ignore the overwhelming feedback you've gotten on a game change and still expect your paying customers to stick around and pay money that pays your paychecks. It's appallingly poor judgement on the part of your management. At this point, the best we, your paying customers, can hope for is that EA will st4ep in and hand the game to a different studio and dev team who will hopefully be willing to actually lsiten and fix things. Of course that assumes EA is willing to try to build a player base back up after BW has destroyed it.

 

From http://massivelyop.com/2016/12/20/interview-bioware-devs-reflect-on-five-years-of-creating-star-wars-the-old-republic/ :

"[ben Irving] specifically mentioned Galactic Command — a controversial system that just released with the latest expansion — when talking about taking a calculated leap of faith while being humble about it. “We took a risk here; we took a shot. I think we got most of it right, but there are things that we didn’t get right. And that was providing goals for those who are doing the hardest content and providing specific gear-chase items. So two weeks after we launch, we reviewed that data and had a heart-to-heart discussion with ourselves to say this is what we’ve got to do. It’s the right thing to do for the game.”"

 

He's lost his mind. He looked at the data, tried to come up with how to hide how bad the data really is and how bad the design truly is and came up with the abomination explained below and in the stream wrap-up. There is no humility there. Where is the apology to the players of SWTOR? There is no doubt he owes us a big apology. Where is the admission Galactic Command was a total misstep and the plan to totally remove it from end game gearing and to remove the RNG from the end game gearing? Where is the honest attempt to really listen to his paying customers and to implement the system the customers are willing to pay for?

 

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

At this point, you have 2 expansions that went from bad to worse. This isn't going to fix it. Ben either needs to actually engage with and listen to his paying customers or he needs to move on and have someone else do it. He doesn't have months to figure out how badly he screwed the last year and a half up. We stayed around for the last expansion in hopes this one would put to rights some of the mess from the last. Unfortunately, we waited in vain. He needs to own up to the screw-up and fix it, and he needs to do it yesterday. Screwing around a bit at a time over the next several months isn't going to cut it this time. He's out of cards to play, we're out of patience.

 

So, once again, you're being told what you plan isn't what we want. I posted another thread with a different option than putting specific tokens on specific bosses (think old PVP gearing system). I and many others have put forward the simple solution which is put back the previous loot tables with specific pieces on each boss and just adjust the gear to the new levels.

 

I've also pointed out that as long as your unhappy customers are telling you they are unhappy, you have a chance to fix things. Once they stop, fixing things gets dramatically harder. How many of the people who told you over and over that the GC system was a bad idea are still posting? How many are even still here? How many people have unsubbed or removed their payment info quietly without telling anyone? How long can SWTOR continue to lose subs over a bad decision that a dev team refuses to admit was bad and back out of?

[DanNV]

Substantially increasing CXP will solve may player issues regarding 5.0. More CXP means more command crates meaning more chances to get set pieces or even blue pieces at this point.

 

No, it won't because it's still all RNG based. Such a grind isn't a good system for end game gearing. It just isn't.

[ChunkyGoodness]

Eric,

 

From http://massivelyop.com/2016/12/20/interview-bioware-devs-reflect-on-five-years-of-creating-star-wars-the-old-republic/ :

"[ben Irving] specifically mentioned Galactic Command — a controversial system that just released with the latest expansion — when talking about taking a calculated leap of faith while being humble about it. “We took a risk here; we took a shot. I think we got most of it right, but there are things that we didn’t get right. And that was providing goals for those who are doing the hardest content and providing specific gear-chase items. So two weeks after we launch, we reviewed that data and had a heart-to-heart discussion with ourselves to say this is what we’ve got to do. It’s the right thing to do for the game.”"

 

Really? Leap of faith? Try looking at history. There was a similar system for PvP gear, champion bags as I recall, that were universally hated.

[Deewe]

From http://massivelyop.com/2016/12/20/in...-old-republic/ :

"[ben Irving] specifically mentioned Galactic Command — a controversial system that just released with the latest expansion — when talking about taking a calculated leap of faith while being humble about it. “We took a risk here; we took a shot. I think we got most of it right, but there are things that we didn’t get right. And that was providing goals for those who are doing the hardest content and providing specific gear-chase items. So two weeks after we launch, we reviewed that data and had a heart-to-heart discussion with ourselves to say this is what we’ve got to do. It’s the right thing to do for the game.”"

I have to admit I'm really disappointed to hearing that.

 

Seriously Ben, how come do you even think you had the luxury of taking a chance?

Is this how far you are disconnected from the reality?

 

Seems to me you need help here. Someone has to step in and pull your head out so for once you'll have a clear picture of what's really happening and all the damage that has been done since launch.

 

I'm not even sure there's any hope even among the most loyal customers.

My guild master for example is just done and letting his sub running out.

If you read the PTS you already know what kind of message he's posting to his nearly 500 paying subs guild members and lately it become even worse.

 

Please, for the shake of the survival of this game start to actually listen to your customers and stop overdoing things.

[Sshodan]

*Bumps head on table top* Just what part of NO RNG can't you get Bioware? Why would we want RANDOM gear pieces to drop from bosses? The whole point of the darn system is supposed to be to offset RNG but no, instead you add not one, but TWO new layers - drop% and a chance of it being a piece one needs.

Who wants to bet that 5 days after the update there will be guilds that only get "glove pieces everywhere" and can't assemble a pair of boots for more than one character per week? Because OPS ARE weekly. With 8 people in them and only 1 truly specific drop it will take 2 month to get everyone a pair of boots...

At this point the only thing I want is LESS RNG. This is going beyond even Korean models - I want to play and MMO RPG not go to the darn casino!

[Radzkie]

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

So in reality it's going to be

 

1st boss 0%

2nd boss 0%

3rd boss 0%

4th boss 0%

Final boss 100%

 

Looks like I'm going to be PvPing most of the time... again. If ops have this system, gearing through PvP is most likely going to be vastly superior.

 

Honestly, it's a good thing I temper my expectations when it comes to this game.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Radzkie

[Chemists]

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

Has your ******* not already realized that people do not like rng?

[Andryah]

Substantially increasing CXP will solve may player issues regarding 5.0. More CXP means more command crates meaning more chances to get set pieces or even blue pieces at this point.

 

Yep.... or reduce the points needed for a level, or some combination of both. The fact that they are not addressing changes that improve the rate of Cxp gain.. and harmonize it across ALL types of content such that an hours play time = roughly the same gain in Cxp regardless of the content (though difficult group content should have some additional modifier)..... is quite troubling at this point.

 

5.1 is basically doubling down on the need for players to grind for gear.

 

As it stands... this is simply not going to be productive with OPs. It's a double grind... grind for UPs from OPs and then grind for tokens from crates as well.

 

I'm sure they are still tinkering with exact settings on percent chance to drop, and how many drop.. but you can bet it won't be enough for a whole OPs group.. so you can add loot roll randomization on top of the double grind.

 

People are going to bypass OPs and just grind PvP.... which is still double grinding.... but appears to payout better and at a better pace.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Andryah

[Neoforcer]

My fear is that this will only result in operation players continuing to do PvP because it gives them faster gear than via operations.

Unless there is a very steep price on the PvP vendors, 242 gear will be more easily available via PvP than via operations. There are very few guilds left that can kill NiM bosses, and the skill required for NiM is miles above what you need for PvP, where you only need to put in enough time and can even AFK.

 

Regarding the drop chances, I hope that you will take your data into account, e.g. look at how many players are able to beat each boss and base the drop chance off of that. We don't need another period where EV/KP drops the same loot as all the other ops. E.g. if you give the bosses in Rav/ToS a 60% chance, the bosses in EC/TFB/S&V/DF/DP a 40% chance and the bosses in EV/KP a 20% chance, players are actually encouraged to run the harder operations. (numbers are just an example, you have more than enough data to finetune them)

 

 

There is it called valor every piece will have a valor req which should be set at about 50 rank any good pvper has that level valor to by stuff from then vendor

[FlavivsAetivs]

Every ops boss should drop a piece, 100% guaranteed.

 

I'm a HM/NiM Raider, have been since 3.X, had 224 min/maxxed gear in 4.X. It's been 64 command ranks, 48 on my main and 8 on my other Infiltration Shadow and Deception Sin, and the only thing I can use that's dropped is a 230 purple mainhand.

 

This is why I hate RNG. There was massive outcry when they took away the guarenteed NiM gear drops from NiM ops, and they reversed it. The outcry needs to continue until they totally reverse the RNG loot system.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited December 21, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[Andryah]

Every ops boss should drop a piece, 100% guaranteed.

 

I'm a HM/NiM Raider, have been since 3.X, had 224 min/maxxed gear in 4.X. It's been 64 command ranks, 48 on my main and 8 on my other Infiltration Shadow and Deception Sin, and the only thing I can use that's dropped is a 230 purple mainhand.

 

This is why I hate RNG. There was massive outcry when they took away the guarenteed NiM gear drops from NiM ops, and they reversed it. The outcry needs to continue until they totally reverse the RNG loot system.

 

~ Eudoxia

 

Reading what you wrote here.....I'm of the opinion that bad luck is not your core issue here, though you did have really really bad luck.

 

Your core issue is that you currently have to get through 90 levels just to be eligible for items that might be an upgrade for you... and 180 levels to get to tier 3 items, which is clearly what your historical quest is.... top BiS gear.

 

This core issue gets addressed in 5.1 since it now becomes which difficulty OP you run determines the tier of unassembled component you have a chance to get in and OPs group run. Thing is.. they may make drop rates on UPs skimpy enough that people will be fighting over them in loot rolls, etc. in an OPs group. And you still need a stack of command crate tokens for each UP use... exact number not yet known. So prepare yourself for a brand new core issue when 5.1 drops.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Andryah

[DanNV]

This is why I hate RNG. There was massive outcry when they took away the guarenteed NiM gear drops from NiM ops, and they reversed it. The outcry needs to continue until they totally reverse the RNG loot system.

 

~ Eudoxia

 

Unfortunately, the only outcry that seems to make an impression is canceled subs. Nothing else seems to make an impression. They have no clue about customer satisfaction or why it's needed.

[Flying-Brian]

Hey folks,

 

There is some good conversation going on in this thread but I thought I would pop in and explain how it is currently planned to work in 5.1. The last boss of each Operation is guaranteed to drop unassembled pieces of a specific slot (we are still working out how many pieces drop). Each other boss in an Operation has an increasing chance (by boss) to drop any unassembled piece, not a specific slot. For the sake of the example I am about to make, I will use Karagga's Palace.

 

Everything listed below is an example and not necessarily what will be in-game, these are just representative of the way the system will work.

 

1st boss (Bonethrasher) - 20% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

2nd boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 25% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

3rd boss (Foreman Crusher) - 30% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

4th boss (Fabricator) - 35% chance to drop any unassembled piece.

Final boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Hopefully that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

Eric, this is pointless and does not help the main issue at hand. It's like putting a band-aid on a bullet hole.

 

There are 12 pieces (14 total pieces) and 9 ops. That means even with these changes, that where will still be 3 pieces (likely all the left side, ear, implant, and relic) that will have no direct path to try to obtaining them when you never, ever, see them drop from an rng command crate. Also everyone knows that the % chances you have listed aren't even going to be close to what they will be in the game.

 

Please, just go back to every boss drops a unassembled piece. We get it, the design vision for this time around was to slow down the gearing process (but there are already players at tier 3, so it didn't slow them down that much). But this is too much. You introduced 5 levels worth of tier gear with 5.0 (230, 234, 236, 240, 242). 230 is starter gear, throw away gear, yet you are treating it like gold, with the unluck that some (most) of the players are having with the cxp system.

 

Making the last boss a 100% drop, and the others having a chance, DID NOT WORK THE LAST TIME, and failed when it was tried with nightmare ops. And on top of getting an unassembled piece, you will still not get you the piece of gear right away, since they will have to be combined with an unknown number of tokens from cxp crates.

 

This is how the system will end up working out (which will be outside of your design for it). Raid groups that are able to, will just farm the final boss of ops with alts for the 100% drop. The group finder daily op will turn into a Ninja looting nightmare for casual players that will be far worse then the MH ever was from EV during HHM in 4.0.

 

You have the time available before 5.1. Please make the correct changes to the system, and make it so every boss in an ops drops an unassembled piece. Stop screwing everyone over with more RNG.

[Radzkie]

I don't understand why they don't just have earlier bosses drop lesser upgrades. You know, like bracers or belt for the first boss. Build up to the bigger upgrades.

 

Why does everything have to be RNG hell?

Edited December 21, 2016 by Radzkie

[gabigool]

The fundamental, underlying issue with the developers is they feel that the desire for gear is enough to keep players interested.

 

It is not. I can say with no reservation I do not enjoy playing this game at all right now and have not since 5.0 dropped.

 

I play this game because right now, my team hasn't decided on a different game to play. And admittedly, there is some (extremely overly optimistic) hope that this disaster will disappear.

 

The game sucks right now. I'm playing far, far more than I normally do - yet I've gone from three teams to essentially one. I've gone from a bunch of characters I used to play and enjoy to one.

 

I try to mix up what I do because after 5 or 6 Fractured runs I want to blow my brains out. So I pug stuff and cringe every time I get a HM LI pop with a 65 DPS because I know we won't be able to kill the bonus boss. I cringe when I pug SM TFB and a DPS is standing at home shooting the boss (yes, we try telling him) then wipe to irregularities.

 

My buds used to make fun of me because I'd pug something and stick with it for 5 hours to try to help a group get their first HM Terror or Stryak kill. Now? Two wipes and I'm checking my GC window to stress over how much CXP I'm losing.

 

I've tried to play GSF, PvP - just stuff I have no interest in. I feel like if I'm sitting on the fleet I have to make sure I'm spamming snowballs at my comp while I sit in queue.

 

This is not what this game is supposed to be about. It's just not *********** fun.

 

I don't care that people can do GSF for gear. I think it's sheer insanity the devs want me to. I don't care that people can PvP for gear. It blows my mind the devs expect me to.

 

I just can't get my mind wrapped around how the devs expect people to not hate this.

 

I certainly do understand them being cool with us not loving it. They're trying to take more of my money. I get that. I truly do. But to think this is something that people are going to still be here doing in 6 months - they need their heads examined. I'm GC rank 71. The idea of grinding this out to even just 200 or so is just mind boggling.

 

Being able to gear up quickly in order to participate in the in-game activities I enjoy is one of the major reasons I loved playing this game. It has never been about obtaining gear. That was simply a nuisance.

 

Ben, Eric - anyone listening - for players that enjoyed working on difficult content there is nothing you can bolt onto this system that makes it ok for most of us. You need to get that through your head.

[Ryenke]

I don't understand why they don't just have earlier bosses drop lesser upgrades. You know, like bracers or belt for the first boss. Build up to the bigger upgrades.

 

Why does everything have to be RNG hell?

 

For the thrill, um no, because it is exciting, um no, because bioware is humbly listening to the SWTOR customers, um no.

 

Got me, can't think of one good reason to have changed SWTOR into this RNGgoRound house of horror.

[gabigool]

I don't understand why they don't just have earlier bosses drop lesser upgrades. You know, like bracers or belt for the first boss. Build up to the bigger upgrades.

 

Why does everything have to be RNG hell?

 

The old 4.0 loot table is fine if they remove EV and KP. If they need another place to stick a mainhand they could have just stuck it on Warlord Kephess.

 

Someone smarter than the existing crew would have to look carefully at ToS/Ravagers of course, but I'm sure 20 minutes of serious thought could sort it. It depends how they've been tuned for 5.0. I have not seen them yet.

 

4.0 Revan was certainly not a NM/Master level encounter, but MB was IMO. Cora was a joke. There was no sense to how they were tuned. But - Hardmare was a **** idea from the get-go and as such it's probably still nonsensical.

[merovejec]

This is how the system will end up working out (which will be outside of your design for it). Raid groups that are able to, will just farm the final boss of ops with alts for the 100% drop. The group finder daily op will turn into a Ninja looting nightmare for casual players that will be far worse then the MH ever was from EV during HHM in 4.0.

 

Yup, I can already see the ninja looting going on. I mean people will form HM runs and the leader will always ninja loot it. Will be a massacre with people giving up on it in the end.

 

People will agree on Free for All, but always a few seconds before boss dies, leader changes to master looter and takes the gear. They really didnt learn from Priority Ops.

Edited December 21, 2016 by merovejec

[merovejec]

Final boss (Jarg and Sorno) - 100% chance to drop unassembled head piece.

 

Eric, you keep on proving you never really played the game

[Silko]

Can we please just stop with this madness and go back to what worked? If Bioware really wants us to gear slower then introduce new ops were we get current tier gear from them and not reused content. That is why we geared so damn fast in 4.0. You asked us to replay content we have completed for years and expect us to not be able to clear it again faster then clearing new content. All of these issues can be cleared by 2 very very simple steps. Use the previous working gearing system. Then add new Operations. It's really that simple.

[Jerba]

There is it called valor every piece will have a valor req which should be set at about 50 rank any good pvper has that level valor to by stuff from then vendor

Not sure what you mean by that. I've been playing the game for five years, so even though I'm not a PvPer I have Valor 93, same goes for my guildies. So unless you are just starting out with SWTOR, a Valor requirement won't really make much of a difference.

[Morteficare]

Hi. Im looking forward to the Changes.

Im the lucky guy here becous im doing both pvp and pve.

 

Just wana say the if you wana max out your way to get ger you cant just do pvp or pve you must do both.

I can demand i can have every thing fast if im limetid in what i want or will do.

 

Sorry for my bad English and gramar.