.. and the award for Worst MMO Business Model in 2016 goes to ...

[MadCuzBad]

The critical mass loss of the SWG community didn't convince SOE to undo the NGE. I have seen little from Bioware/EA to suggest they will recognize their error either. Remember, to them, *we* are the problem for not wanting to play the game they way they want us to play it.

 

Wow, very nicely said.

[LastBrood]

There is nothing wrong with a company wanting their users to pay for their services but its pretty crazy to expect them to pay to grind. That for me personally will not do.

 

I have no interest to waste my time grinding and pay for that, the logic behind that is bananas. As long as the grind at least not Legacy wide, I am most likely gone and will only show up for story expansions only.

Edited December 24, 2016 by LastBrood

[LordArtemis]

Well, I actually have two paths of thought here....both speculative of course, I know no more than anyone else with respect to Bioware's business practices, goals and/or performance in the market.

 

My first thoughts sit with success...if Bioware is finding success with it's current model, it would be hard for me to push them to change it, even if it creates bad PR...if it works, this is, after all a business, and they would be expected to do what is best for the business, not for players. That is just the reality of things....IF success has been found.

 

However, I also think that overall the performance that we have been privy to has been lower than could have been expected, especially with some of the quality work and changes that have been presented over the last three years or so.

 

IMO this game has quite a bit going for it (other than Star Wars obviously) and should be performing better.

 

Now, there are probably other contributing factors IF this product could perform better, including poor development decisions and changes. But one could look at the rhetoric that surrounds SWTORs business model and perhaps conclude that it is not likely the current model HELPS...the reaction is certainly not positive overall, and quite often rather harsh in judgment compared to other games.

 

I would say a few positive things about the game's model however.

1) Generally speaking it is not an example of pay to win, any more than any other model that encourages you to sub is pay to win. There are a few notable exceptions, but overall spending more money in the game provides more convenience than it does advantage.

 

2) SWTOR does offer quite a bit for free (the entire base story) and generally allows you to advance your character higher than some other games before you have to pay.

 

The shortcomings of it's sub/free system generally focus on punitive measures, nag screens/popups and harassing caps that encourage a payout. Many features sit behind paywalls, but most of the content is open, and quite a bit more if you pay at least a bit.

 

Still....I am of the belief that it would be in SWTORs best interest, short of some kind of metric that demonstrates otherwise, to reduce the punitive features of this model and instead profit from desired features and content, which the game does not seem to capitalize on IMO.

[MadCuzBad]

There is nothing wrong with a company wanting their users to pay for their services but its pretty crazy to expect them to pay to grind. That for me personally will not do.

 

I have no interest to waste my time grinding and pay for that, the logic behind that is bananas. As long as the grind at least not Legacy wide, I am most likely gone and will only show up for story expansions only.

 

Unfortunatly for this game, your not alone. A lot of people will not do it and are not going to play this game. Me included. Already on Harbinger queue times has slowed significantly. I can only imagine how bad it is on other servers. Game is removed from my PC. Case closed for me. After over 5 years they got me. I will not be returning.

[DanNV]

Just for the hell of it I just logged in to check populations. Harbinger is at 144 right now (10:20 AM on Sat). I would have expected closer to 200 on fleet based on past experience. Shadowlands is at 48 (1:20 PM server time). I would have expected 120 or so. Begeren Colony is at 45 (10:20 AM), which is about where it's always at. (BC makes Shadowlands look really bad since SL is usually double BC.)

 

So, no full servers and only the one with really slow queue pops and the lightest normal population doesn't show a major drop. That's not a good sign by any measure and people who are claiming a full server are totally out of touch with reality.

[Quraswren]

Unfortunatly for this game, your not alone. A lot of people will not do it and are not going to play this game. Me included. Already on Harbinger queue times has slowed significantly. I can only imagine how bad it is on other servers. Game is removed from my PC. Case closed for me. After over 5 years they got me. I will not be returning.

 

Some real world numbers for me is that I had thousands of free CC's coming in from referrals. Over the years I amassed about 280. Coins flowed in regularly and at one point nearly 15K+ a month.

 

Just for me and real numbers I can see. As of late I'm getting about 2500. Thats a massive drop in people subscribing and since I littered multiple threads with my referral code. I have no ties to those people that used my code and have no clue who they really are but I can imagine those subbers were all over as far as location. If I alone am seeing that kind of drop. You can bet it's happening all over the game. How do I know this? I have a few friends still in game and only in game like me because of the free coins we still get. They too have lost thousands of free coins as well meaning a lot of subbers have also left game.

 

Gamers are leaving swtor and no amount of a half arse changes to the RNG crates or the addition of such a massive grind is going to change their minds. Such limited new content for what bw has done to the game isn't some great player retention change. Run old content again but this time around do it for rewards you cannot see and bw made sure to design the game that you will more than likely get no real reward at all for your time.

 

bw has screwed this game up in a major way.

[Jett-Rinn]

Bree Royce the senior editor at massively has a special hate for SWTOR, I really don't see how anyone can take anything she has to say about the game seriously.

 

I like what Wolfshead online has to say about the so called gaming news he has no love for SWTOR but he also points out the bias these so called news sites have.

[Jamtas]

Bree Royce the senior editor at massively has a special hate for SWTOR, I really don't see how anyone can take anything she has to say about the game seriously.

 

I like what Wolfshead online has to say about the so called gaming news he has no love for SWTOR but he also points out the bias these so called news sites have.

 

Once again I'll point out that BW thinks highly enough of massively to include them in their accolades trailer. IF they have such a special hate for SWTOR, wouldn't BW just ignore them and use a quote form a more friendly and reputable source? Unless, there just were no others because...

[MadCuzBad]

Some real world numbers for me is that I had thousands of free CC's coming in from referrals. Over the years I amassed about 280. Coins flowed in regularly and at one point nearly 15K+ a month.

 

Just for me and real numbers I can see. As of late I'm getting about 2500. Thats a massive drop in people subscribing and since I littered multiple threads with my referral code. I have no ties to those people that used my code and have no clue who they really are but I can imagine those subbers were all over as far as location. If I alone am seeing that kind of drop. You can bet it's happening all over the game. How do I know this? I have a few friends still in game and only in game like me because of the free coins we still get. They too have lost thousands of free coins as well meaning a lot of subbers have also left game.

 

Gamers are leaving swtor and no amount of a half arse changes to the RNG crates or the addition of such a massive grind is going to change their minds. Such limited new content for what bw has done to the game isn't some great player retention change. Run old content again but this time around do it for rewards you cannot see and bw made sure to design the game that you will more than likely get no real reward at all for your time.

 

bw has screwed this game up in a major way.

 

Don't confuse the white knights with the facts.

[Jett-Rinn]

Once again I'll point out that BW thinks highly enough of massively to include them in their accolades trailer. IF they have such a special hate for SWTOR, wouldn't BW just ignore them and use a quote form a more friendly and reputable source? Unless, there just were no others because...

That Accolades trailer was produced before the hate machine started, and had much to do with Larry Everett's coverage of the game, also if you notice Massively is pretty back of the bus when it comes to getting information from Bioware/EA these days even about titles other than SWTOR.

 

Finally that is where I am in agreement with Wolfshead, gaming media much like the main stream media these days are anything but reputable.

[Jett-Rinn]

Don't confuse the white knights with the facts.

 

Don't confuse rational people that choose not to be constantly triggered and outraged with White Knights.

[YungDemon]

This award is well deserved.

[LordArtemis]

Well, I find massively pretty reputable. I have always found their coverage pretty fair to this game. That does not mean that I discount the concerns or judgments of others that choose to find the site wanting...that is personal choice IMO.

 

I would remind folks, however, that this was a poll. Not an opinion piece, not that there have not been plenty of those, but a poll. Now, if one believes that the poll was somehow skewed unfavorably toward SWTOR, so be it. But personally I find that unlikely.

 

It is not like this game operates in a vacuum, nor is it like other sites are bending over backwards to praise the business model here. The VERY general sentiment web wide seems to place SWTOR at the bottom of the list when it comes to access models in this genre more often than not.

 

Regardless of whether or not the site itself is reputable, I don't think it is a stretch to claim that SWTORs access system is not exactly the most popular in the market. I think that much is pretty obvious.

[Jett-Rinn]

Well, I find massively pretty reputable. I have always found their coverage pretty fair to this game. That does not mean that I discount the concerns or judgments of others that choose to find the site wanting...that is personal choice IMO.

 

I would remind folks, however, that this was a poll. Not an opinion piece, not that there have not been plenty of those, but a poll. Now, if one believes that the poll was somehow skewed unfavorably toward SWTOR, so be it. But personally I find that unlikely.

 

It is not like this game operates in a vacuum, nor is it like other sites are bending over backwards to praise the business model here. The VERY general sentiment web wide seems to place SWTOR at the bottom of the list when it comes to access models in this genre more often than not.

 

Regardless of whether or not the site itself is reputable, I don't think it is a stretch to claim that SWTORs access system is not exactly the most popular in the market. I think that much is pretty obvious.

 

Fair enough...that you find massively reputable, they may have been back when Aol owned them but these days I find them anything but... also we all know how the polls can be skewed and given the fallibility of them it is quite easy for a small group with an axe to grind to make the poll reflect their agenda.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Jett-Rinn

[ivanhedgehog]

That Accolades trailer was produced before the hate machine started, and had much to do with Larry Everett's coverage of the game, also if you notice Massively is pretty back of the bus when it comes to getting information from Bioware/EA these days even about titles other than SWTOR.

 

Finally that is where I am in agreement with Wolfshead, gaming media much like the main stream media these days are anything but reputable.

 

and if you dont like the news, try to discredit the sources of the news...very old tactic

[Jeweledleah]

Fair enough...that you find massively reputable, they may have been back when Aol owned them but these days I find them anything but... also we all know how the polls can be skewed and given the fallibility of them it is quite easy for a small group with an axe to grind to make the poll reflect their agenda.

 

opinions aside though, when comparing SWTOR to other comparable games on the market - it does in fact have one of the most, or the most customer unfriendly monetanization model. everything from restrictions to amount of content released for the money charged... its not just baseless hatred. its something that's based on evidence

[MadCuzBad]

Don't confuse rational people that choose not to be constantly triggered and outraged with White Knights.

 

Rational about bioware destroying the game?

[Jett-Rinn]

Rational about bioware destroying the game?

 

See my response to your flame bait/Astro turfing post about the game being dead here You know....the one over 50K subscribers viewed?? Yeah that is the longest death scene since This

 

It's ridiculous that some folks on this forum rub their hands together in anticipation of the games death...it makes every negative thing folks say about MMO communities valid

opinions aside though, when comparing SWTOR to other comparable games on the market - it does in fact have one of the most, or the most customer unfriendly monetanization model. everything from restrictions to amount of content released for the money charged... its not just baseless hatred. its something that's based on evidence

 

As unfriendly as it is it rakes in the cash..which means it won't be changing anytime soon want to blame someone? Blame the community that supports it.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Jett-Rinn

[Mavkiel]

Yep this game wins worst model in my book as well. The cartel market pretty much highlights everything wrong with the game. No, this isn't a rant about micro transactions

 

I don't mind buying cool looking gear. Buying emotes or stronghold items. What I mind is that its the *only* way to get good looking gear or emotes/etc.

 

Hell, part of the joy of playing these sort of games is grinding your way to some objective. Or getting lucky with some random loot drop that looks nice. That simply isn't possible in this game. When was the last time you found something neat off a critter? For me it dates back before the cartel market and getting my first Hydra chest piece.

[MadCuzBad]

Yep this game wins worst model in my book as well. The cartel market pretty much highlights everything wrong with the game. No, this isn't a rant about micro transactions

 

I don't mind buying cool looking gear. Buying emotes or stronghold items. What I mind is that its the *only* way to get good looking gear or emotes/etc.

 

Hell, part of the joy of playing these sort of games is grinding your way to some objective. Or getting lucky with some random loot drop that looks nice. That simply isn't possible in this game. When was the last time you found something neat off a critter? For me it dates back before the cartel market and getting my first Hydra chest piece.

 

There is a reason why we are down to 8 US servers, most of which are ghost town with no players on them while Archeage is growing so much with new players that they are slating to release 2 new servers to handle the massive growth. Its not by chance. This development team has worked very hard to make this the absolute worse business model in the entire MMO community. And they did not win by a slight margin. They won by a landslide being over 50% higher in votes than any other MMO.,

[LordArtemis]

Well, as far as the cash this model brings in, as I mentioned earlier, if it is working it is hard to justify pushing Bioware to change it.

 

I still feel strongly, however, that this game is likely underperforming. Especially considering the high quality (IMO) storytelling and choreography from the Empire expansions.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Not cutting off, shoring up. The passes were a sub deterrent since pref and f2p could simply buy them through a third party on the gtm if they wanted to experience the content or simply settle for their weekly allotment. Subs didn't even have to purchase them since they could just use their monthly allowance to purchase them for next to nothing. Now that all of that is behind a pay gate, those players are now forced to sub for the whole enchilada, ensuring no middle men cut into profits as well as a profit increase.

 

So the smarter option from your perspective is to remove the revenue stream ( as I said ) as opposed to preventing people being able to use free allotted CC or referral CC? Also what proof do you have that people weren't spend real world money on it?

 

I can tell you one simple fact - no one is spending ANY real world money on passes now where as some people would have before. Those who couldn't/wouldn't sub before aren't doing to magically start all of a sudden because the passes were removed and a grind system was brought in - they will leave, it's ludicrous to think otherwise.

 

Group content has been in an unhealthy state for years, but that's less Bioware's fault and more the players

.

 

Ah yes the players fault BWA failed to offer up any decent new group content, damn the players. I guess it could be semi true if we blame Zorz for helping design such difficult operations in 3.0 that the majority of casuals found they couldn't even progress through storymode.

 

Damn those players!

 

The reason they introduced a story mode and made 4+ heroics soloable was because people were complaining they wanted to do the content solo without dealing with the rushing/Spacebar!!

 

So they made the old heroics more difficult by adding in level sync because they wanted more people to do it solo? Strange because as I remember it flashpoints/heroics were easier to solo post level sync so how does making it harder make it easier?

 

squealing/gearing requirements/negativity of other players. The community asked for more personal space, bioware provided and then they got bipolar that they had no more reason to group like they wanted in the first place. Before that, flashpoints, ops, warzones and gsf were popping near without pause. Especially Kuat drive yards.

 

Before what? It almost seems like you are agreeing that BWA are taking this game on a downward trend due to the now lack of pops. However the difference is you seem to want to blame the playerbase as opposed to the clear responsible party here that is BWA.

 

Give it time. It hasn't been yet a month since these new changes were introduced. When people get hungry enough to scratch that star wars itch or play gated content, they'll pay. And that's the beauty of it.

 

They really won't - they didn't rush back once 4.0 got stale ( around February onward if you follow the torstatus trend ) and this whole expansion barely brought enough people back to get the population spikes up where DvL was. BWA has burned too many bridges, people try other games, find they are fun and don't return when they see even stupider decisions being made than when they left i.e. galactic command for one example.

 

 

No, it's a business. EA didn't pour over 1 million dollars into this game just to make people happy

 

Please no strawman. I said "WE" aren't investing in because you were insinuation one of the flawed arguments of how people should throw money at BWA hoping they will make more content as opposed to paying for a product they have produced that we already find fun.

 

Of course it's a business to EA but that's not the argument you made nor the reply I gave - stay on track here.

 

Of course they have to pay. Why wouldn't they? That content wasn't made on nunnery donations and well wishes. That content was made with the money their subscribers provided to validate their time in making that content. There are no free meals. You want to eat at the table, put your money down and pay for your plate.They're lucky that they get to do any content without paying. As for any revisions-- well they know their metrics. The forum is a vocal percentage of the player population but hardly the majority.

 

Again - what makes that a good business model? Where is evidence of the success? Why is it better than having passes etc.? Have you anything to offer up to support your view? If it drives players away that in turn means less people for other players to group with so they in turn leave because they can't get groups and thus experience the content they want to do ... it's not a good business model.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Some real world numbers for me is that I had thousands of free CC's coming in from referrals. Over the years I amassed about 280. Coins flowed in regularly and at one point nearly 15K+ a month.

 

Just for me and real numbers I can see. As of late I'm getting about 2500. Thats a massive drop in people subscribing and since I littered multiple threads with my referral code. I have no ties to those people that used my code and have no clue who they really are but I can imagine those subbers were all over as far as location. If I alone am seeing that kind of drop. You can bet it's happening all over the game. How do I know this? I have a few friends still in game and only in game like me because of the free coins we still get. They too have lost thousands of free coins as well meaning a lot of subbers have also left game.

 

Gamers are leaving swtor and no amount of a half arse changes to the RNG crates or the addition of such a massive grind is going to change their minds. Such limited new content for what bw has done to the game isn't some great player retention change. Run old content again but this time around do it for rewards you cannot see and bw made sure to design the game that you will more than likely get no real reward at all for your time.

 

bw has screwed this game up in a major way.

 

I noticed something similar the other day too - Out of ~100 odd sub referrals I've had over my time playing only 1 is still subbing.

 

I haven't raised it though as I tihnk the whole referral part of 'my account' is bugged to hell since it doesn't show new referrals I've been getting CC for.

[LordArtemis]

Fair enough...that you find massively reputable, they may have been back when Aol owned them but these days I find them anything but... also we all know how the polls can be skewed and given the fallibility of them it is quite easy for a small group with an axe to grind to make the poll reflect their agenda.

 

Sure, you make a cogent argument on both points. I would only say, again, that this game does not exist in a vacuum. It is not as if you can't find negative feedback about the business model in this game on the internet at large...it is, in fact, less likely you will find praise in that respect.

 

Again, that is very unscientific, speculative, and certainly some folks that do not like the game overall, or have an axe to grind may ramp up the rhetoric, so to speak, on this issue.

 

But I think that it is reasonably obvious that this is one of the most restrictive and punitive business models with respect to access in the genre. Certainly not the only one, and perhaps not even the worst, but at the bottom of the list for the most part.

 

I really don't see that as an unfair or illogical judgement. But again, that is just my perspective. I do not claim to have the final word or the only logical view on the issue naturally.

Edited December 25, 2016 by LordArtemis

[katphoenix]

Well, as far as the cash this model brings in, as I mentioned earlier, if it is working it is hard to justify pushing Bioware to change it.

 

I still feel strongly, however, that this game is likely underperforming. Especially considering the high quality (IMO) storytelling and choreography from the Empire expansions.

 

this business model works until you lose enough cc buying players to make a huge dropoff in cc sales. once you step off that cliff, there is no going back. Will their current fiasco be enough to do that? we will have to wait and see.