Thanks for listening to us

[Alssaran]

I did Google and there's actually wide ranging definitions for what people consider pay to win.

 

The aspect of pay to win (while differing in the amount) is always the same. You pay real world money to accelerate and/or ease the gear grind/acquire gear faster than someone who doesn't pay, or have a paywall that is so tideous without paying that spending money is a necessity.

 

There is no definition of pay to win that sees trading in-game currency for gear as a reasonable qualification.

[AscendingSky]

And we've officially entered into the realm of Poe's Law - genuinely cannot tell if this person is earnest and just doesn't understand the basic concept of P2W (which, hey, it happens) or is out-and-out trolling everyone now.

 

Well, they come from Opposite Land, so... if they're trolling, does that mean they're serious? Or are all Opposite Landers serious and therefore trolling?

[Otaktey]

Adding the OPS vendor back to the game does not make it anymore pay to win than it was pre-5.0. This troll has never accused OPS and PVP players of P2W before now, so he/she/it is just trolling.

[JennyFlynn]

The aspect of pay to win (while differing in the amount) is always the same. You pay real world money to accelerate and/or ease the gear grind/acquire gear faster than someone who doesn't pay, or have a paywall that is so tideous without paying that spending money is a necessity.

 

There is no definition of pay to win that sees trading in-game currency for gear as a reasonable qualification.

 

Yep, I misread one of the definitions I saw which was mind boggling all on its own. Guess that's what happens when my brain's fried.

[Quraswren]

I can't help but feel you wouldn't be happy unless you got bis gear in the mail every time you created a new toon. I'm really confused as to what you would consider a good gearing system.

 

Seeing as there was nothing wrong with the old system that would be fine. Expand it to allow any gamer to do any content for options in gearing. No RNG needed at all. Adapt in a way to adjust gear distribution time if that is such a big concern of bw. I do not need gear handed to me as I expect gamers to do content to get gear. Harder content gets better and better gear. effort does equal reward but Im also understand everyone wants gear. Adapt what was in use already to accommodate that. Creating an new GC system with RNG gearing and a massive grind just to do old content and because it is so flawed, they now have to add in a new even more convoluted system to the already broken system to try to help gamers like it.

 

You see the problem here right?

 

Everyone screamed for token vendors to provide gearing certainty. They are going to give us token vendors and people are still screaming.

 

Why are there still complaints? Did you try to understand them? Adding in token venders means nothing if the command tokens are over priced. Means you will still be subject to the God awful RNG system we have been trying to get away from. And thats just one potential flaw.

 

They are even giving us loot drops from ops bosses again, another thing everyone cried about and yet tears are still flowing.

You mean those random loot drops for every boss except the last no matter how hard they are. Pretty sure random is what we are trying to not have more of implemented. Like I said, just because bw claims to be listening does not in any way mean they understand.

 

BW would be well within their rights to be very exasperated right now.

As should gamers at this point to be honest. I mean how many times do they have to be told RNG sucks before they get it. How many times do they have to be told the old system was good just use what was already in game and adjust that to accomplish gear distribution and a way to get all gamers involved doing any content for GC but still not need the RNG or massive 9+ month grind.

 

If bw wants to be exasperated, they can join us in the same boat.

[Khevar]

Because currency isn't currency unless it's RW money? Is that what you're saying? Any time you can simply walk up to a stall and buy some of the best gear in game as opposed to having to grind for it, it's p2w.

Because "Pay to Win" as regards video games has a very specific meaning.

 

It's used to describe a business model of a game where people spend real money to obtain the ability to succeed.

 

Did you honestly not know this?

Edited December 16, 2016 by Khevar

[stoopicus]

Thank you for putting the gear vendors back. It may not be exactly like before 5.0, but at least we can play with a purpose now! :rak_09:

 

+1, Thanks BW.

[eriksarcasm]

Because "Pay to Win" as regards video games has a very specific meaning.

 

It's used to describe a business model of a game where people spend real money to obtain the ability to succeed.

 

Did you honestly not know this?

 

I don't think he did. I feel like he actually looked it up after we corrected him, said "Oh." and is sitting somewhere feeling very silly indeed.

[Radzkie]

I don't think she did.

 

fixed for you

 

I'm restraining myself from saying anything more

Edited December 16, 2016 by Radzkie

[CrazyOldMystic]

Not sure where this info is coming from? As I checked the patch notes nothing there, checked the facebook page nothing there, which leads me to two conclusions. The first this is a troll thread, the second the devs said something in a obscure thread somewhere.

 

Assuming for the moment this is is not a troll thread.

Putting the vendors back in is both a bad move, and a insult. Over 20 pages of requests, and several threads full of requests to have all the old pve and pvp gear sets brought back and put on vendors for sale via credits. You the devs do nothing, but people wine about the new gear set up? You put the those vendors back in the game? There is two words for that. *** backwards. Second problem, the last being the insult, now they have to waste resources coming up with new sets every so often. Third problem balance will once again be way way way way way out of wack. For right now as one poster said no one has a huge advantage over anyone. The only people kicking arse are those with skill. Hint to those who are happy that the gear vendors are coming back. Of course this whole statement is on the assumption this was not a trolling thread.

[Radzkie]

Not sure where this info is coming from? As I checked the patch notes nothing there, checked the facebook page nothing there, which leads me to two conclusions. The first this is a troll thread, the second the devs said something in a obscure thread somewhere.

 

Assuming for the moment this is is not a troll thread.

Putting the vendors back in is both a bad move, and a insult. Over 20 pages of requests, and several threads full of requests to have all the old pve and pvp gear sets brought back and put on vendors for sale via credits. You the devs do nothing, but people wine about the new gear set up? You put the those vendors back in the game? There is two words for that. *** backwards. Second problem, the last being the insult, now they have to waste resources coming up with new sets every so often. Third problem balance will once again be way way way way way out of wack. For right now as one poster said no one has a huge advantage over anyone. The only people kicking arse are those with skill. Hint to those who are happy that the gear vendors are coming back. Of course this whole statement is on the assumption this was not a trolling thread.

 

From the live stream

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=906421

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=906662

[Aeristash]

I don't think he did. I feel like he actually looked it up after we corrected him, said "Oh." and is sitting somewhere feeling very silly indeed.

 

Hm? Moi? Not at all. P2W never has had a strict definition, contrary to the delusions of some. RW Currency is simply the broadest sense of the term. It's subjective to a variety of models. I simply got bored of arguing because the argument is akin to the snake eating its own tail. It will be never ending. Ta.

[Jamtas]

My bad, I was wrong.

 

There, that's what you meant to say before pride made you respond by acting like you don't care or have time for this anymore.

[Zhedzaban]

As should gamers at this point to be honest. I mean how many times do they have to be told RNG sucks before they get it. How many times do they have to be told the old system was good just use what was already in game and adjust that to accomplish gear distribution and a way to get all gamers involved doing any content for GC but still not need the RNG or massive 9+ month grind.

 

If bw wants to be exasperated, they can join us in the same boat.

 

But practically every game ever made or that is going to be made has forms of rng. It's why it's called gaming. Go play solitaire without rng and see what fun that is.

 

We will now have certainty, each command crate will drop tokens to be exchanged for whatever gear you or your alts need. Add to that the ops bosses will drop guaranteed gear again. Veteran players will once again be fully geared with bis within a month, just like 4.0. RNG has been reduced significantly.

 

And yet we still have people complaining. I'm thinking half the people on these forums are just angry, even tho they have no idea why they are angry. BW fixes the problem but your cynicism won't let you acknowledge it. I'm doubtful this game will ever be redeemed in your eyes.

[AscendingSky]

Hm? Moi? Not at all. P2W never has had a strict definition, contrary to the delusions of some. RW Currency is simply the broadest sense of the term. It's subjective to a variety of models. I simply got bored of arguing because the argument is akin to the snake eating its own tail. It will be never ending. Ta.

 

Once again you fail to acknowledge that earning in-game points/experience/tokens/etc. through in-game efforts alone that you can use to get rewards has never been part of the definition of 'pay to win'. If we go by your Opposite Land definition, all MMOs in the real world we live in that have ever let you level, earn stat points, earn currency or tokens, etc. would all be pay to win. Are you saying all MMOs ever made are pay to win, Opposite Lander?

Edited December 16, 2016 by AscendingSky

[Khevar]

And yet we still have people complaining. I'm thinking half the people on these forums are just angry, even tho they have no idea why they are angry. BW fixes the problem but your cynicism won't let you acknowledge it. I'm doubtful this game will ever be redeemed in your eyes.

While some people have a lot of negativity towards the game, you seem to have a lot of negativity towards other people in this forum.

 

You could have noticed the title of this thread (which is "Thanks for listening to us", by the way) and decided to engage with people that reacted positively to the announced changes. Instead you looked for reasons to express cynicism of other people, all while admonishing them for expressing cynicism.

 

How are you any better?

Edited December 16, 2016 by Khevar

[Quraswren]

But practically every game ever made or that is going to be made has forms of rng. It's why it's called gaming. Go play solitaire without rng and see what fun that is.

 

Im not playing solitaire or wow ro whatever game you want to come up with next. I'm playing swtor and complete RNG gearing for everything is at this point in swtor is just not good. If I wanted that much RNG I would have been playing those gamers. swtor didn't need a new RNG gearing system when the old one was mroe than enough and could have been adapted to the same gear distribution times and inclusion of all gamers.

 

You act as if there is was no other option than the piece of crap we got.

 

We will now have certainty, each command crate will drop tokens to be exchanged for whatever gear you or your alts need. Add to that the ops bosses will drop guaranteed gear again. Veteran players will once again be fully geared with bis within a month, just like 4.0. RNG has been reduced significantly.

 

You will only have limited certainty. Last boss only. All other bosses are RNG drops so you are still subject to some amazingly piss poor RNG mechanics that we currently are trying to get rid of vs what we just had in game for years. Now combine that with just how much does each one cost in command ranks? bw didn't answer that did they? If the command rank cost is high and there is no reason to believe bw wont make it extremely high to limit gamers just as RNG does) you will still have to rely on RNG gearing for the majority of the 14 slots you have for gear no matter what extremely old content you run or the difficulty you run it on.

 

RNG has not been reduced significantly with the information we have.

 

And yet we still have people complaining. I'm thinking half the people on these forums are just angry, even tho they have no idea why they are angry. BW fixes the problem but your cynicism won't let you acknowledge it. I'm doubtful this game will ever be redeemed in your eyes.

 

Of course you have gamers complaining. We're smart enough to not fall for the first thing bw throws out as if it was gold when it its clear its a half step in the right direction and not nearly as praise worthy as some seem to make it given the information we have and its still a month away. Of course gamers are angry to some extent. bw took a perfectly good gearing system, threw it out for a screwed up on that not 2 weeks after the expansion releases, they have to work out a way to force it to work because it seems a good number hate it., I can guarantee the ones here pretty much know why they are disgruntled (or angry)

 

bw however has not fixed the problem with RNG. You don't have enough information to think that or at least you shouldn't with what we currently know and dont know. You don't fix the [roblem RNG by adding in more RNG elements hidden as random token along with tieing it into the original problem of GCs massive grind.

 

Can bw fix this? Sure they can. but the path they are on is a very long one as long as they stick to the current status que and continue with this fiasco of a end game system.

[eriksarcasm]

Hm? Moi? Not at all. P2W never has had a strict definition, contrary to the delusions of some. RW Currency is simply the broadest sense of the term. It's subjective to a variety of models. I simply got bored of arguing because the argument is akin to the snake eating its own tail. It will be never ending. Ta.

 

True, but you're not the snake. And your rebuttal is a thread from another forum that actually proves yourself wrong? And you call other people delusional?

 

I think you're actually trolling yourself at this point.

[Zhedzaban]

While some people have a lot of negativity towards the game, you seem to have a lot of negativity towards other people in this forum.

 

You could have noticed the title of this thread (which is "Thanks for listening to us", by the way) and decided to engage with people that reacted positively to the announced changes. Instead you looked for reasons to express cynicism of other people, all while admonishing them for expressing cynicism.

 

How are you any better?

 

I chose to engage comments that continued to be negative towards the game because I'm trying to understand why the negativity is still there. To take your point further, why do the cynics choose to be negative in what was supposed to be a positive thread?

 

The main issues with Galactic Command have now more or less been addressed, yet there is a subset of forum posters who refuse to acknowledge it. I'm within my right to question why the negativity persists. My logical conclusion is that there is nothing that will make them happy and their only desire is to rain on the parade.

 

The cynics are more than welcome to counter my comments with their reasons, and I hope they will.

[Khevar]

The main issues with Galactic Command have now more or less been addressed, yet there is a subset of forum posters who refuse to acknowledge it.

Have they?

 

Make your case:

 

What do YOU think were the main issues with Galactic Command, and why do YOU feel they have now been addressed?

Edited December 16, 2016 by Khevar

[Zhedzaban]

Im not playing solitaire or wow ro whatever game you want to come up with next. I'm playing swtor and complete RNG gearing for everything is at this point in swtor is just not good. If I wanted that much RNG I would have been playing those gamers. swtor didn't need a new RNG gearing system when the old one was mroe than enough and could have been adapted to the same gear distribution times and inclusion of all gamers.

 

You act as if there is was no other option than the piece of crap we got.

 

 

 

You will only have limited certainty. Last boss only. All other bosses are RNG drops so you are still subject to some amazingly piss poor RNG mechanics that we currently are trying to get rid of vs what we just had in game for years. Now combine that with just how much does each one cost in command ranks? bw didn't answer that did they? If the command rank cost is high and there is no reason to believe bw wont make it extremely high to limit gamers just as RNG does) you will still have to rely on RNG gearing for the majority of the 14 slots you have for gear no matter what extremely old content you run or the difficulty you run it on.

 

RNG has not been reduced significantly with the information we have.

 

 

 

Of course you have gamers complaining. We're smart enough to not fall for the first thing bw throws out as if it was gold when it its clear its a half step in the right direction and not nearly as praise worthy as some seem to make it given the information we have and its still a month away. Of course gamers are angry to some extent. bw took a perfectly good gearing system, threw it out for a screwed up on that not 2 weeks after the expansion releases, they have to work out a way to force it to work because it seems a good number hate it., I can guarantee the ones here pretty much know why they are disgruntled (or angry)

 

bw however has not fixed the problem with RNG. You don't have enough information to think that or at least you shouldn't with what we currently know and dont know. You don't fix the [roblem RNG by adding in more RNG elements hidden as random token along with tieing it into the original problem of GCs massive grind.

 

Can bw fix this? Sure they can. but the path they are on is a very long one as long as they stick to the current status que and continue with this fiasco of a end game system.

 

See, I'm reading through this and all I can think of is my original comment that you won't be happy unless BW mail you bis gear. You don't want to earn it in any way shape or form. People were happy in 4.0 because they could tick off their gear from ops bosses like a shopping list and be done in weeks. That's not a gearing system, that's practically free loot. That is not achieving progression, that is colour by numbers.

 

You are right that we don't have the exact details from BW yet, but notice I have faith they will get it right eventually but your cynicism forces you to assume that BW will 'screw it up" and "screw us over".

[Zhedzaban]

Have they?

 

Make your case:

 

What do YOU think were the main issues with Galactic Command, and why do YOU feel they have now been addressed?

 

C'mon Khevar you are an intelligent person.

 

Look at the livestream notes. We are getting a vendor and guaranteed tokens. Getting set pieces is now a certainty, the only thing we don't know is how much it will cost, ergo how long it will take to get. And if you raid or pvp you will get it infinitely quicker.

[ChadSkywalkur]

Hm? Moi? Not at all. P2W never has had a strict definition, contrary to the delusions of some. RW Currency is simply the broadest sense of the term. It's subjective to a variety of models. I simply got bored of arguing because the argument is akin to the snake eating its own tail. It will be never ending. Ta.

 

First off your link is not much of a source, it's just a random forum post, and the person even says it's all just his opinion. That aside, nowhere is there mention of pay to win not involving money. The whole argument was about which things you pay for are pay to win.

 

Spending money is paying. spending in-game currency, earned by playing the game, is not.

 

It's not even an argument, your only posturing. You provide ZERO reason as to why your opinion is right. Instead you say things like:

 

"It's subjective to a variety of models." That's not an argument. Name one where not paying any RW currency is considered pay to win. Then at least a real argument (or discussion as the modern, less "confrontational" term would be) could be had.

 

And "Why even bother working for gear when it's simply manufactured in a vendors shelf?" That doesn't even mean anything. Why even bother working for gear when it simply appears out of thin air in a command crate? It's a virtual world; nothing is being manufactured or stored on a shelf. The only difference to any of it is the delivery method, both of which require the player to play the game in order to work toward getting the gear.

 

By your logic, CXP is a currency, and people can just walk up and buy command crates containing BIS gear with said currency, with no grind involved. Never mind the fact that you can only get that currency by playing the game.

 

As for your idea of balance, take these two examples:

 

1. Two players earn a galactic command crate. Each receives one equal gear piece.

 

2. Two players earn a galactic command crate. One of them receives a gear piece, the other does not.

 

Number 2 is your definition of fair.

 

 

To answer one further question: "Can it even still be called a prize?"

 

No it cannot, that's the whole point. When you enter a contest, you HOPE for a prize. Bioware wanted players to have the excitement like they were entered for a prize; but this game is not just a contest and people don't play it just to receive the opportunity to be entered into one.

 

The only thing that will be never ending is that you may live in your own world for as long as you like.

 

 

tl;dr: By your logic, CXP is a currency, and people can just walk up and buy command crates containing BIS gear with said currency, with no grind involved.

[Mowermanx]

And yet we still have people complaining. I'm thinking half the people on these forums are just angry, even tho they have no idea why they are angry.

Its an interesting observation and one that I've also noticed.

I think that the RNG issue really highlighted and magnified the problem of having very little new repeatable content for so long, be it ops, pvp, classes, planets with dailies/rep, events, we haven't had a new event in over 3 years.

The longer you've been around the more likely a few of these will be an issue no matter what you like doing, or even if you enjoy all or most of them.

[Khevar]

Look at the livestream notes. We are getting a vendor and guaranteed tokens. Getting set pieces is now a certainty, the only thing we don't know is how much it will cost, ergo how long it will take to get. And if you raid or pvp you will get it infinitely quicker.

Sure, but to have a proper discussion, I need to know what you specifically are referring to when you said:

The main issues with Galactic Command have now more or less been addressed, yet there is a subset of forum posters who refuse to acknowledge it.

This is a bold claim.

 

What were the main issues, in your estimation? What you think the main issues may not be what I think the main issues are.

 

So ... ?

Edited December 16, 2016 by Khevar