Ben and Bioware Out Of Touch with Players

[Shwarzchild]

Being vague and not actually answering questions is what most of us are pissed off about this live stream. Which is only adding fuel to the fire already out of control about the issues.

 

Fair point to a degree. I think they answered more than people care to admit though. I'd agree though with you and others who've said similar things in that monitoring is insufficient. Waiting to do something is insufficient. However, I do agree with them buffing the cxp from flashpoints and uprisings. At least, thats a step in the right direction. Not all the way of course, but a step.

[Diefenbaker]

Fair point to a degree. I think they answered more than people care to admit though. I'd agree though with you and others who've said similar things in that monitoring is insufficient. Waiting to do something is insufficient. However, I do agree with them buffing the cxp from flashpoints and uprisings. At least, thats a step in the right direction. Not all the way of course, but a step.

A step in the right direction would be: scrap the RNG, give us more content. New content. Not the same old crap about "making old content relevant again" because they're either too lazy or too incompetent to make new stuff.

 

Hell, there was a time when Ops and FPs had a story. Now it's Uprisings that are generic arena vs generic mobs and zero story.

 

I used to raid in this game. Now I look at the galactic command screen, see the same old **** from ages ago, stuff I've run in beta, nothing new (other than the atrocious single player story, which I can't do with other people, and uprisings.) That's not progress. That is stagnation.

 

But I guess RNG is exciting! And running the exact same heroics and FPs that we've been running since beta is also great! EA Austin says it's double plus good!

Edited December 9, 2016 by Diefenbaker

[Shwarzchild]

A step in the right direction would be: scrap the RNG, give us more content. New content. Not the same old crap about "making old content relevant again" because they're either too lazy or too incompetent to make new stuff.

 

Hell, there was a time when Ops and FPs had a story. Now it's Uprisings that are generic arena vs generic mobs and zero story.

 

I used to raid in this game. Now I look at the galactic command screen, see the same old **** from ages ago, stuff I've run in beta, nothing new (other than the atrocious single player story, which I can't do with other people, and uprisings.) That's not progress. That is stagnation.

 

But I guess RNG is exciting! And running the exact same heroics and FPs that we've been running since beta is also great! EA Austin says it's double plus good!

 

I agree with the sentiment that the real problem here is a lack of content. Absolutely agree there. I still see potential with the galactic command system as a whole. I'd also agree that gating gear through RNG was and still is a mistake. But, I also choose to look at the system now and say hmmm what' can I do to make this less painful? My solution was crafting. Now, I'm back to where I wanted to be for 5.0 in terms of content. But, overall, you are right that no new content (I'd also no count uprisings. I'm already just about at 100 percent achievements for that, and once that hits 100 I'm not touching that stuff again) is the absolute real problem here. I'd also agree that, if we take our current situation that would include rng gearing, that having no method of catching a player up or it being legacy was really bad.

[crimsonranger]

I don't necessarily think they're out of touch, but more like they have a lot of good ideas that are poorly thought through...

 

RNG gearing - Well, thats not really a huge deal, even WoW does RNG gearing in Legion, and most devs these days think that is the newest brilliance to retention, though at least in the defense of WoW on it, they have a ton of ways to get that gear, and swtor is severly lacking in the "end game things to do" department. Plus, I think that there needs to definitely be a catch up/alt mechanic, so you don't feel trapped in one character.

 

GC - Its a good idea, badly produced. GW2 did something similar with their mastery system, and its not completely awful. I think that the CXP should be legacy bound, and there needs to be a lot more ways, including small group, large group, and solo, to get it. I also think that your command rank should do something for you other than give you a box o' stuff. Maybe you should get some skill choices the higher you go, like the ability to call another companion to dps a target for 10 seconds, or something like that. Maybe a command skill tree that gives you more traits or something, I dont know, just needs to be really fleshed out.

 

Companions - This one is pretty rough. I could maybe understand them not wanting to bring in certain companions, due to them not fitting into the current arc, but even that's a long stretch. Also, the new companions that aren't attached to your 1-50 character have 0 customization options, and you cant change their gear period. And if you boost a toon, the only characters available for romance are Koth, Theron, and Lana. If the story is that you are the "commander" class, and all the others died, all romance options should be wide open, and available. You should be able to converse with all of them in the base, and they should have converstaions, complete with romance options available. All the base companions should be back by now (unless they are dead), cause well, word has probably spread that its you leading the alliance, and they should very much want to be a part of that. Like I said, a good idea, just poorly thought out, and definitely rushed.

 

TL;DR I think that the ideas here have a ton of potential, but these ideas should never have needed potential. They should have been great to begin with, and they kind of missed the boat on it.

Edited December 9, 2016 by crimsonranger

[Lunah]

Been around since beta and after coming back to the game yet again a few months ago I am now leaving again. Sadly I don't understand how they push alts for DvL then make a system that is geared toward playing only one character. if they swtich that and upped the % rng chance I think many of those unsubbing like me might stay. After the livestream today i don't see that happening soon enough. And NO you can't have my stuff, I have never been rich in an MMO anyways so nothing good to give away. Here's to hoping they listen and some of those cancelling will return.

 

PS I will admit that I am an SWG veteran and TOR was never as great as that for me, but with it currently being the only Star Wars MMO I keep coming back...I just wish Bioware wouldn't continue to make mistakes like Sony did and kill yet another SW MMO.

[Aulus_Claudius]

Ever consider the idea that you and your feelings do not make up the entirety of the "player base"? I understand when people are passionate and emotions are raw, they tend to believe others should also feel the same way. SWTOR appeals to a very diverse audience that play this game for a multitude of reasons. You have to realize while you may not be happy, there are certainly others that are.

Are you aware of how you sound when you post like this? You're more than welcome to have a different opinion, but the constant "I know you feel upset, I understand, and when you calm down you'll see that I'm right" vibe you send out really undermines the point of view you represent. I'd be far more inclined to take you seriously if you'd be less patronizing, and I mean that constructively.

 

To the OP: I'm not convinced Ben & co. are out of touch. Unless they live in an echo chamber they have to realize what players think of their new gearing system, but rather I think it's just out of their hands, and if they say the wrong thing they get in trouble. Reminds me of being Press Secretary... everyone hates you because that's your job, even though your ability to actually influence policy is near 0. EA is the elephant in the room here, and it's EA I refuse to pay until they fix this mess of a system they've force-fed us.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Aulus_Claudius

[Kurfer]

I was mentioning in my WZ that several people on the forums are claiming that pvp is the fastest current way to farm CXP. Everyone was like "what do you mean" or "where are the forums"?

 

Lesson of the day:

 

In ANY game, the difference in numbers of players that visit forums and don't is massive. The complaints you see here are from a very very small percentage of the player base.

 

I loved the story, I love PvP and I love the character look/feel/combat/animations but I have never ever made a thread praising them. I have however, created a thread complaining about the management out of passion because the CXP system was not to my liking but then I realized that I am not the majority and am slowly embracing it as it's definitely not as bad as it seems.

 

I tend to believe these devs ignore the major complaints to eliminate the sheep effect. No matter what they do, the sheep will never let them live it down even if they improve. A perfect example of this is that there are still people who think PvP is "ruined" because of the initial reports that a match only gave 25 cxp. Even if I lose I get around 500ish but people still have it in their heads that pvp is "ruined".

Edited December 9, 2016 by Kurfer

[scardera]

we are listening to custommers you wanted a legacey cxp perk here it come ''for 2500 CC you can unlock Command rank level 500'' Edited December 9, 2016 by scardera

[scardera]

I was mentioning in my WZ that several people on the forums are claiming that pvp is the fastest current way to farm CXP. Everyone was like "what do you mean" or "where are the forums"?

 

Lesson of the day:

 

In ANY game, the difference in numbers of players that visit forums and don't is massive. The complaints you see here are from a very very small percentage of the player base.

 

I loved the story, I love PvP and I love the character look/feel/combat/animations but I have never ever made a thread praising them. I have however, created a thread complaining about the management out of passion because the CXP system was not to my liking but then I realized that I am not the majority and am slowly embracing it as it's definitely not as bad as it seems.

I tend to believe these devs ignore the major complaints to eliminate the sheep effect. No matter what they do, the sheep will never let them live it down even if they improve. A perfect example of this is that there are still people who think PvP is "ruined" because of the initial reports that a match only gave 25 cxp. Even if I lose I get around 500ish but people still have it in their heads that pvp is "ruined".

 

lets see in 6 month when the story player white knight have done the chapters and gone

[AllisonLightning]

lol. Everyone is a member of the Camarilla whether they want to be or not.

 

World of Darkness reference, or even better, Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines. In any case, as a Tremere- we enforce the Masquerade and support the Camarilla as the backbone of our...okay back to Star Wars before I completely geek out. In any case, the result of the emergency stream should become evident- whether or not they can fool people into thinking a boost will fix the issues- it won't.

 

It's to the point while I'd prefer to pay a six month block in February- I'm doing this in two month periods because at this point, it feels like Bioware Austin are bitter. They are bitter that they are being pressed on two sides, we don't 'appreciate' the game and EA doesn't 'appreciate' them... I think they're out of touch with us and what their higher ups want which is why we are seeing some of the derpiest grinds ever- they got told to improve their numbers and instead of doing it like grown ups and figuring out why people were leaving/not staying subbed, they did... this.

[Morrolan]

To the OP: I'm not convinced Ben & co. are out of touch. Unless they live in an echo chamber they have to realize what players think of their new gearing system, but rather I think it's just out of their hands, and if they say the wrong thing they get in trouble.

 

Ben is a lead designer he would at least have a hand in making decisions on the system.

[DarthDymond]

Oh yeah, totally out of touch... as they literally went point-by-point through most of the major topics that have been raised.

• CXP rates - increasing Gold Mobs, increasing Uprisings, increasing Flashpoints, continuing to monitor as they go and will tweak accordingly.
  
• RNG - working internally on a way to allow players to go after specific pieces.
  
• Alts - working internally on a way to make the CXP grind more friendly to alts.
  
• DvL Achievements - Giving back meta-achievements
  
• Master Ranos bug - being fixed next patch
  
• Harbinger Rollback - straight-up apologized, said they are working with Customer Support to get back any stuff that was lost, submitting tickets can help get you stuff back.
  
• More new content - Five more uprisings in January; rolling out Master modes Jan-March; will announce more on group content
  

Only major topic I didn't see addressed was people really wanting more companions back.

[Vinak]

Oh yeah, totally out of touch... as they literally went point-by-point through most of the major topics that have been raised.

• CXP rates - increasing Gold Mobs, increasing Uprisings, increasing Flashpoints, continuing to monitor as they go and will tweak accordingly.
  
• RNG - working internally on a way to allow players to go after specific pieces.
  
• Alts - working internally on a way to make the CXP grind more friendly to alts.
  
• DvL Achievements - Giving back meta-achievements
  
• Master Ranos bug - being fixed next patch
  
• Harbinger Rollback - straight-up apologized, said they are working with Customer Support to get back any stuff that was lost, submitting tickets can help get you stuff back.
  
• More new content - Five more uprisings in January; rolling out Master modes Jan-March; will announce more on group content
  

Only major topic I didn't see addressed was people really wanting more companions back.

 

 

People don't want CXP RNG loot "tweaked". They want it removed. Period. End of story. Nothing more to discuss until it's gone.

[DarthDymond]

People don't want CXP RNG loot "tweaked". They want it removed. Period. End of story. Nothing more to discuss until it's gone.

There's some widespread dislike of the GC system as it stands, but that extreme position is definitely not the community consensus on the issue.

Edited December 9, 2016 by DarthDymond

[JennyFlynn]

I think they're out of touch because of the 'returning companions' thing.

 

They only hear in bits in pieces. Like with the companions, they decide to return the most craptacular boring characters that very few give two craps about first...then they hear people getting upset that these irrelevant sh*tastic characters are crapping up the story and slowing it down and not to waste time on *them* and work more on the story...but then what they take away from that is beyond insane...

 

They decide that because we don't care about the crappy characters, that it must mean we don't care about ALL the comps and are upset about *all* comps getting returned and decide that the ones people wanted most and cared about most won't be returned anytime soon. Who even knows when?

 

It almost feels punitive.

 

Players: Stop returning comps no one cares about, we want our LI's and favorites back. Don't waste time with the crappy comps, use that time to focus on story and give us back our favs.

 

Bioware: Oh, so you think us returning the crappy comps is buggering up the story huh? We're dragging it out eh? Well then, we're just not going to return any of them then. So there! *blows razzy* Suck on that, eh? Maybe by 2020 we'll decide to give back Quinn, Vector, Scourge, Jaesa, Kira, Elara, etc. Maybe. If you don't p*ss us off.

 

That's how it feels to me and it's frustrating.

 

Just like trying to get them to let us earn the GC XP across legacy so we can play all our toons, seems to be falling on deaf ears too.

 

Players: We want to play more alts, give us more toon slots so we can make more toons.

 

Bioware: *grudgingly* Ok, here take some slots it'll cost you CC, so that's still a win for us...but because you kvetched so much about it, guess what, we're going to make it so you can really only ever play one toon, ever again.

 

Maybe I'm reaching, I don't know, but that's how it feels to me, anyways. :/

 

Nope, I'm with you. And now it's gotten so bad that it seemed as though Ben was actually trying to shield Charles from comments and questions concerning Companions.

 

As for GC, it does feel punishing in a way. Say you only have an hour per day to play (due to work, life, family, kids, mom wanting to mop and vacuum your basement, w/e), you now really have to pick and choose. Do I play my level 70 to grind out GC ranks or will I play my little level 20 and have some fun? Pick the latter and you're basically screwing yourself, if GC and gear is a thing you care about. Shouldn't have to be that way and it's contradicting basically anything else they've done. They even added 2 free character slots for 5.0 and upped the grand total of allowed characters as well. "Here go make some more characters, just don't bother playing them unless you wanna rob yourself of GC ranks and a chance at the gear you need!"

[alyris]

No these corporate types are under the illusion that if they say it, it must be true.

 

You can't blame them, they surround themselves with yes people, and people that kiss up to them every chance they get.

[Piepyr]

Lesson of the day:

 

In ANY game, the difference in numbers of players that visit forums and don't is massive. The complaints you see here are from a very very small percentage of the player base.

 

LOL . . . suuuure. You know where else I've read posts just like yours? On the WoW forums when WOD launched. People were pissed about the no flying and the stupid FB mini game garrisons and so on. Someone, just like you, would pop into these threads and gush about how they loved, loved, LOVED the xapac and only whiners come to the forums to complain. Everyone else was happily playing.

 

And then 5 million people dropped their subs in the first few months. WoW lost the most subs in the shortest amount of time than any other MMO in history. That's some sort of record.

 

Lesson of the day:

 

Not even a fraction of a fraction of those 5 million people came to the forums. It doesn't even make any sense to assume everyone who doesn't visit the forums is happy with the game. How could anyone possibly make that claim? Someone made that tripe up years ago and deluded people have been repeating it since. Even when the evidence shows this isn't the case.

[Andryah]

I don't speak for everyone, but my own observations. But I'm betting I'm on the side of the majority based on the percentage of posts and members of people's guilds who are against the current problems vs those who see none, like yourself.. I'm sorry if you are not part of that majority. I obviously don't speak for or represent your point of view.

 

So yes, I have considered it,

 

You would lose that bet.

 

While most of us are not satisfied with GC right now, myself included, not everyone sees it as the pejorative you are presenting.

 

Honestly.. if you are this angry... that is on you... you own your emotions, nobody else. The studio is simply a trigger for you. If it was not the studio, it would probably be something/someone else. Heck, me just trying to reason with you in your angry state of emotions may be a trigger too.. but I am giving it a sincere shot anyway. Can't talk you down though if you won't listen and won't own your emotions and find more positive ways to discharge them.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Andryah

[LordArtemis]

Here is my take on the OPs point, for what my opinion is worth, which is next to nothing really.

 

I am not sure I would say they are COMPLETELY out of touch, though I would say that they have missed the mark on some things.....

 

How to keep hardcore players happy. This is one that I think they consistently fall short on.

The importance of the F2P/Premium players and ways to get them to spend more money.

The CONSTANT balance, rebalance, rebalance, balance again, remove, simplify, balance AGAIN lol.

 

Im all for improvements, but I think they are making a few improvements that few asked for and very few actually enjoy. Now, they may have an overall plan, but I can name 4 things that I believe did NOT go over well over the past few years that pretty much remained as is.....

 

Lack of group content, even with the expansions

Contraband slot machine, the entire way that was handled

GSF being PVP only

Strongholds being hook only

I believe that participation levels in GSF (which I assume are on the low side) is a good indicator of how that turned out. I believe that strongholds have gained some favor, but folks mostly still use them as travel/convenience nodes and little else. As far as group content goes...that was just silly IMO. A HUGE oversight, as if no one seemed to realize that an expansion that discouraged cooperative play in an MMO would somehow have a muted response. It is a shame, because I believe the storyline was bordering on superb....just my opinion naturally.

 

I will not even speak to the debacle (IMO) that was the entire CSM nightmare.

 

The story was great IMO. The setup fell short of my expectations.

 

Then you have the command system....like the level sync system, an idea with huge potential, IMO poorly implemented with little foresight to how the player community would react. A few small adjustments, IMO, would have made it a far easier pill to swallow....

 

And then dump level 10 mats in level 9 areas....this just smacks of lack of foresight IMO. Another silly move.

 

It just seems to me like Bioware cant help but get in their own way on a constant basis. They make a change, obviously people react badly, they keep it as is, perhaps make a few token adjustments that make little difference.

 

This is not, IMO, the way to foster dedication or obsession with a game. Blizzard had to learn this the hard way, and I think that this is a lesson that Bioware still needs to learn.

 

So many of the current changes have the potential to be blockbusters IMO....with a few changes. But they seem to resist the idea that perhaps the systems, as they are designed, are not exactly the right fit for this game...not as bad as some say, but still in need of some adjustment.

 

I still hold out hope that will change at some point.

Edited December 9, 2016 by LordArtemis

[Snowred]

Being vague and not actually answering questions is what most of us are pissed off about this live stream. Which is only adding fuel to the fire already out of control about the issues.

 

This is true ... really this was a hands up opportunity. Instead it was waffletime.

 

Missed entirely the points raised by players on forums and reddit, the bad reviews on various game sites - which shows however much they talk about reading feedback they clearly don't.

 

The "RNG is exciting" comment... that was a bad answer lol a very bad answer.

[Kurfer]

lets see in 6 month when the story player white knight have done the chapters and gone

 

No doubt it will happen.

 

Will enough players leave to close the doors? Nope, you're a man of low IQ if you think that.

 

Will enough players leave to where the command system queues for content be horrible? Probably.

 

This happens with every MMO, even the juggernaut WoW was bleeding subscriptions at a horrendous rate prior to Legion. It will happen with Legion as people just get sick and tired of playing the same content.

 

Trying to keep gamers interested is a very difficult battle, they would have to keep creating content after content in order for that to happen. Let's say they create a new ops, after the 5-6th time people run it the interest is gone.

[Mowermanx]

I don't necessarily think they're out of touch, but more like they have a lot of good ideas that are poorly thought through...

 

RNG gearing - Well, thats not really a huge deal, even WoW does RNG gearing in Legion, and most devs these days think that is the newest brilliance to retention, though at least in the defense of WoW on it, they have a ton of ways to get that gear, and swtor is severly lacking in the "end game things to do" department. Plus, I think that there needs to definitely be a catch up/alt mechanic, so you don't feel trapped in one character.

 

I just want to pull you up on this.

 

When forming a group for a raid in wow, you have the choice of Master Looter, which has been a staple in that and many games including this, so guilds and closed groups can gear up a specific player the way they always have.

A new mode called Personalised Loot, in that mode, after you defeat a boss, the system rolls and assigns loot to players much like a FFA system, but needs no interaction from players. It assigns specific loot to that char/s that is in the raid, so no more dropping a gun when there's no gun users in the group. This has been a very popular mode as its impossible to abuse and cannot be changed in or out of the raid.

 

So while there's an RNG aspect to that, its only on who gets it (the same way its been here for years before 5.0), not if the boss actually drops any, and they kept the master looter from before.

It's a bit silly even mentioning WoW as you could've easily said SWTOR had RNG prior to 5.0 for the same message, instead of trying to allude to WoW has this layered RNG nightmare we have here now.

[crimsonranger]

I just want to pull you up on this.

 

When forming a group for a raid in wow, you have the choice of Master Looter, which has been a staple in that and many games including this, so guilds and closed groups can gear up a specific player the way they always have.

A new mode called Personalised Loot, in that mode, after you defeat a boss, the system rolls and assigns loot to players much like a FFA system, but needs no interaction from players. It assigns specific loot to that char/s that is in the raid, so no more dropping a gun when there's no gun users in the group. This has been a very popular mode as its impossible to abuse and cannot be changed in or out of the raid.

 

So while there's an RNG aspect to that, its only on who gets it (the same way its been here for years before 5.0), not if the boss actually drops any, and they kept the master looter from before.

It's a bit silly even mentioning WoW as you could've easily said SWTOR had RNG prior to 5.0 for the same message, instead of trying to allude to WoW has this layered RNG nightmare we have here now.

 

I apologize... I was referring more to the cxp boxes being more like the PvP and world quest boxes in Legion. Those are all completely RNG based, and Ion Hazzikostas even used the same wording about it in one of his Q&A responses, stating that "RNG was exciting". Not to mention the new changes to master looter requires 80% attendance for a raid group to be able to use master looter.

 

I dont know much about the ops here, as I havent really done them, and I assumed that they functioned similarly to other games raids. If they don't then I do apologize for my misinformation.

[RiVaN_]

#RemoveRNG

[Tadagyt]

#RemoveRNG

 

#RemoveRNG