KOTET opinion and Vette or Torian choices (SPOILERS)

[RavaakGalis]

Agree to disagree. An artwork comissioned by the editor (if not made by themselves), with for sure instructions about who shall be represented, then approved by this same editor (and probably a whole team)... this is not "just" artwork. They could have put any random Mando warrior instead of Torian, he's on it on purpose and for a reason. Imagine a book or a movie poster showing a character, but who's never seen in the story. This would be nonsense and useless. We don't talk about some good fanart shared on Twitter official account.

 

[KyraMalakai]

6 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

No, the right path is to save the one you want to save.

True, I don't have one single character empire or republic who has saved Torian, my mandalorian will when she gets there no one else will do it.

That is my choice, for me he is just one more and I will choose Vette everytime.

[SteveTheCynic]

16 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

Agree to disagree. An artwork comissioned by the editor (if not made by themselves), with for sure instructions about who shall be represented, then approved by this same editor (and probably a whole team)... this is not "just" artwork.

In the sense that it has no definitiveness about the One True Path through the story, it for sure *is* just artwork.  It's not a written statement from the writers or anything like that.

16 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

They could have put any random Mando warrior instead of Torian, he's on it on purpose and for a reason.

But that doesn't mean that the reason is that they want to tell us, "Saving Torian is the One True Path through the story."  After all, why is the "start-at-60" Sith Inquisitor called "Darth Imperius"?   (No, it's not because the One True Path through the Inq story was Light-Side.  The word I heard is that the writers thought it sounded cooler.)

16 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

Imagine a book or a movie poster showing a character, but who's never seen in the story. This would be nonsense and useless.

Maybe so, but it happens from time to time, especially on book covers.  Returning to video games for a moment, consider the artwork on the box of the first Elder Scrolls game, Arena.  All the characters on the cover looked at least somewhat like gladiators, and even the name of the game is a hint.  (It was originally intended to be a game of gladiatorial arena combat.  As the emphasis shifted to a straightforward FPRPG, they didn't change the name or the box art, but that nevertheless left the cover of the game being completely unrelated to the content of the game.)

[RavaakGalis]

il y a une heure, SteveTheCynic a dit :

In the sense that it has no definitiveness about the One True Path through the story, it for sure *is* just artwork.  It's not a written statement from the writers or anything like that.

In the name of what an illustration, not used as a promotional picture only but as a loading screen, has less canon value than written content? The game team is taking the decisions about the artworks, thus they make the canon. If they really wanted to stay blur about Torian/Vette dilemna, I say it again but they could have put another Mandalorian instead. Fett or even an anon.

 

Il y a 1 heure, SteveTheCynic a dit :

But that doesn't mean that the reason is that they want to tell us, "Saving Torian is the One True Path through the story."  After all, why is the "start-at-60" Sith Inquisitor called "Darth Imperius"?   (No, it's not because the One True Path through the Inq story was Light-Side.

And why not? Imo, that's very pretencious to believe our storyline is the storyline. I have no problem if tomorrow, they say "Okay, now Sith Warrior is a murderer Pureblood psycho who never romanced Vette and made babies with dark Jaesa". This is not my story, I'd prefer my way, and nevermind if it's not official; "right way" doesn't stop anyone to enjoy the game and the story they play. That's the point of RPG and games with choices.

Tbh, I'd probably save Vette everytime because I prefer her. But it's okay if in the official line, she's dead on Odessen. My story is Infinities, that's all, and I'm fine with that.

 

Il y a 1 heure, SteveTheCynic a dit :

consider the artwork on the box of the first Elder Scrolls game, Arena.  All the characters on the cover looked at least somewhat like gladiators, and even the name of the game is a hint.  (It was originally intended to be a game of gladiatorial arena combat.  As the emphasis shifted to a straightforward FPRPG, they didn't change the name or the box art, but that nevertheless left the cover of the game being completely unrelated to the content of the game.)

You can't compare a game which went out of the blue with no pre-existent lore, and which changed its direction during development with not much money (so not enough to remake box cover), and a 13 years old game with lot of stories, in a deeply developed universe in many other products (movies, TV, books, comics, games), showing characters already seen before and with unsettled fate. So this comparison is irrelevant.

[SteveTheCynic]

3 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

In the name of what an illustration, not used as a promotional picture only but as a loading screen, has less canon value than written content?

Because it's ambiguous.  Written content from one of the writers that says that (paraphrasing) saving Torian is the One True Path is unambiguous.  The image, no matter how it's used, could easily have been just "we chose that because we liked the way it looked", as in the case of the choice of Darth Imperius for the start-at-60 Inquisitor.

3 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

The game team is taking the decisions about the artworks, thus they make the canon.

No, thus they make the image that way.

3 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

If they really wanted to stay blur about Torian/Vette dilemna, I say it again but they could have put another Mandalorian instead. Fett or even an anon.

And no doubt someone applying logic similar to yours would have taken that as an indication that the player canonically saved Vette.

3 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

And why not? Imo, that's very pretencious to believe our storyline is the storyline.

But I'm not saying that.  I'm saying that there *isn't* a single One True Path through the story, i.e. that there isn't a "the storyline".

3 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

You can't compare a game which went out of the blue with no pre-existent lore, and which changed its direction during development with not much money (so not enough to remake box cover), and a 13 years old game with lot of stories, in a deeply developed universe in many other products (movies, TV, books, comics, games), showing characters already seen before and with unsettled fate. So this comparison is irrelevant.

I notice that you carefully snipped away my comment about book covers.  And if we want to talk about movie posters, let's look at the one for the original Tron film that's hanging on my wall over there.  At no point in the film does Tron stand on a ring-game setup and send his identity disk up the beam of an I/O tower.  In fact, Tron is never shown playing the ring game, and Flynn, who *did* play the ring game, does not send a disk up the beam.  And yet there we are, with a silhouetted figure standing on a ring-game setup sending a disk up the beam.

(Oh, and have you seen what Luke and Leia were wearing in the original Star Wars movie posters?  Did they wear that in the film itself?)

[RavaakGalis]

il y a 25 minutes, SteveTheCynic a dit :

Because it's ambiguous.

You see that as ambiguous, but it's not. It's actually as clear as a narrative content, for the reasons I metioned an will mention again.

 

il y a 27 minutes, SteveTheCynic a dit :

The image, no matter how it's used, could easily have been just "we chose that because we liked the way it looked", as in the case of the choice of Darth Imperius for the start-at-60 Inquisitor.

And how can you be sure about that? Did they post anything on official site or social media to tell "We found this cool"? This is interpretation of yours, which doesn't make much sense. If they make choices for anything, it has value by default unless there's comm about to precise "This shouldn't be considered as canon". Using an image in promotion AND loading screen is not an innocent act, as it gives a lot of visibility. Same thing for Darth Imperius.

 

il y a 31 minutes, SteveTheCynic a dit :

And no doubt someone applying logic similar to yours would have taken that as an indication that the player canonically saved Vette.

You can't be more wrong. Showing someone tells the character is alive, but the reverse doesn't: "This is not because we don't see them that they're not here." If Vette was on the picture, THEN it would have mean she survived and Torian died. Not showing any of them (or showing Vette on another picture) would have let the unsettled fate.

 

il y a 38 minutes, SteveTheCynic a dit :

I notice that you carefully snipped away my comment about book covers.  And if we want to talk about movie posters, let's look at the one for the original Tron film that's hanging on my wall over there.  At no point in the film does Tron stand on a ring-game setup and send his identity disk up the beam of an I/O tower.  In fact, Tron is never shown playing the ring game, and Flynn, who *did* play the ring game, does not send a disk up the beam.  And yet there we are, with a silhouetted figure standing on a ring-game setup sending a disk up the beam.

I didn't mentioned the books, but ok. I go to my shelf, and any fictional book having a pictured cover is in the theme of the story, and characters represented are present. I don't mention books using pictures not especially made for them (photographs, historical documents or so), that's different.
 

Whatever you say about Tron. But the characters you see on your poster ARE in the movie, right? We talk about characters, not actions.
Actions on covers and posters are indeed to make it cool; it has to give the public wanting to watch those movies. But thing is, every character on those covers is in the movie, and that's the most important. You don't put someone who isn't in the story just for the sake of "coolness". Imagine Showdown was a non TOR-related theater movie, you see Torian on the poster, then you'll guess "Oh! That guy seems nice!" but he never appears. You'll ask "Why they draw him on it, then?" You'll never think "because that's cool-looking on the poster". If we see someone, we expect to find them.

 

il y a 48 minutes, SteveTheCynic a dit :

(Oh, and have you seen what Luke and Leia were wearing in the original Star Wars movie posters?  Did they wear that in the film itself?)

Just as for action, clothing is irrelevant (and that's actually not different that much from the costumes). Characters are in the movie: Luke, Leia, Vader, the droids, the X-Wings, the Death Star, all is in. You don't have some guy you never see in the product.

[KyraMalakai]

Nothing that happens in this game is canon (as far as I am aware I may be wrong) until it is portrayed in actual sanctioned canon material approved by the powers that be.
Like Revan wasn't male until he came out in the book or comics, before that my female Revan was just as valid, does that mean that that character is now irrelevant?
Nope, male Revan was still canon but in Kotor Revan is female to me.

Then came Disney and all this became Legends so right now the only thing that is relevant for canon is that there was a Sith Lord named Darth Revan so my female might be canon again.
What I mean with all this is that canon is not something set in stone it changes and I do not believe that an art cover that exists to depict an expansion should be taken as the absolute right way.

[SteveTheCynic]

13 hours ago, RavaakGalis said:

And how can you be sure about that?

For exactly the same reason that you can be sure that it indicates canonicity of Torian's survival: none at all.

Hint: I didn't say I was *sure* - I said it *could* have been that way.

13 hours ago, RavaakGalis said:

I didn't mentioned the books, but ok. I go to my shelf, and any fictional book having a pictured cover is in the theme of the story, and characters represented are present. I don't mention books using pictures not especially made for them (photographs, historical documents or so), that's different.

And I could go to my shelf, if it wasn't hiding behind a mountain of cardboard boxes, and find at least a few from the 1970s or 1980s featuring the cover artist's fevered dreams of a spaceship doing ... something.  Most of them weren't even vaguely related to the content of the book.

13 hours ago, RavaakGalis said:

If we see someone, we expect to find them.

That's an extension of the Chekov's Gun reasoning, and it's just as flawed as the original thing, because it doesn't allow for narrative mechanisms like misdirection, the presence of the gun specifically to make us think that someone will be shot later in the story, when it isn't, in fact, going to happen.

[RavaakGalis]

Le 26/06/2023 à 23:52, KyraMalakai a dit :

Like Revan wasn't male until he came out in the book or comics, before that my female Revan was just as valid, does that mean that that character is now irrelevant?

It does. And Revan was already male in Kotor 2, as Bastila is/was pregnant (and the father is obvious, nobody doubted that... I even think she says it, but I'm not sure).
Your character is irrelevant, as the same way that my male Exile or my Rodian Jaden is irrelevant as well. Does it mean I can't enjoy them? Of course not. Nothing forbids you to play a female Revan, a Twi'lek Jaden or whatever. This is just not relevant canon-wise.
Oh, and by "canon" I mean in the Legends timeline, nothing to do with Disney.

 

Le 26/06/2023 à 23:52, KyraMalakai a dit :

Nope, male Revan was still canon but in Kotor Revan is female to me.

To you. Thing is, our opinion about race/gender of PCs is irrelevant. In Kotor, Revan is male, wether we like it or not. Play him everytime as a girl if you want, nobody will judge you about that. Make fanfics or fanarts about F Revan, that's great, and people will enjoy it as well. But in the official content, that's a man. Just as the Exile is a woman named Meetra Surik. Period.

 

Le 27/06/2023 à 12:52, SteveTheCynic a dit :

For exactly the same reason that you can be sure that it indicates canonicity of Torian's survival: none at all.

We won't find any compromise. Seeing means survival (even more as he's not Force sensitive, so we can't pretend he's a ghost). When you go to an event, you expect to find the guests on the poster, otherwise this is false advertising (until official communication tells "there were some changes"). I hold the fact showing Torian is a way to tell he's alive, in the official story elements (no matter if devs maintained the fact he died, as it's complicated to bring him back in this situation: we saw him being neck-broken, he didn't fell in the mist or smth).

 

Le 27/06/2023 à 12:52, SteveTheCynic a dit :

at least a few from the 1970s or 1980s featuring the cover artist's fevered dreams of a spaceship doing ... something.  Most of them weren't even vaguely related to the content of the book.

"A few"? Over how many? You can't base your argumentation over exceptions. TOR always made promotional covers with characters you see during the game, the extensions, and/or trailers (which are a part of the game, as they're shown in). And now, it would be different? Come on.

 

Le 27/06/2023 à 12:52, SteveTheCynic a dit :

That's an extension of the Chekov's Gun reasoning, and it's just as flawed as the original thing, because it doesn't allow for narrative mechanisms like misdirection, the presence of the gun specifically to make us think that someone will be shot later in the story, when it isn't, in fact, going to happen.

I'm talking about characters, you're answering with items. That's not the same thing. We talk about the presence of someone whom fate was unsettled until now. That's just logic he's alive as he's officially represented. His face, his hair, his scars. That's not a Mandalorian wearing his armor with a helmet; if it was, then the doubt could persist (we could imagine some Mando wanting to take his legacy/clan name and make it going on in the time).

I can't get you could still believe devs and narrators asked the illustrator (or at least let them) to represent Torian just because "he looks cool". Sorry but it sounds so... childish: "Yay! I will put her, and him... and why not him? Oh, and what about her, and her! Waw, that's great!" That's not how it works. Any commercial will confirm: when you ask for an official promotional artwork/poster/trailer/whatever, everything is calculated, you don't put your hand in a bowl and pick a random paper with a name on it. We are not talking about a fan art. That choice was made on purpose, otherwise there were plenty of ways to make the artwork cool. If the devs/narrators wanted to stay ambiguous (as you say) about Torian's fate, do you really think they'd approve the picture as it is now? Please. They took a decision, and this decision is then canon because they are the creators. We can agree or disagree their decisions, the thing is still the same.

[SteveTheCynic]

23 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

I'm talking about characters, you're answering with items.

Do you even know what Chekov's Gun even *is*?  For reference, it's a narrative principle famously cited by Anton Chekov, saying that every element in a story must be *necessary*, and all else must be removed.  The story element could be an item (the aforementioned gun, for example), or an event, or even a person.  Misdirection requires an element that *isn't* what it initially seems.

27 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

I can't get you could still believe devs and narrators asked the illustrator (or at least let them) to represent Torian just because "he looks cool".

And I can't understand why you think that couldn't be exactly what happened.  After all (sorry, the citation is lost in the mists of time), a BioWare person did say somewhere that the reason that the start-at-60 Inquisitor has the title "Darth Imperius" (Light Side ending for the class story) was because it sounded cool, and certainly not because the writers intended a definitive statement that the Inquisitor is canonically LS.  (Your reasoning would require the canonical Inquisitor to be Light Side...)

31 minutes ago, RavaakGalis said:

They took a decision, and this decision is then canon because they are the creators.

So what?  If it was really "canon", why was it even a choice in the story?

[Traceguy]

On 6/25/2023 at 4:06 PM, RavaakGalis said:

However, since Showdown on Ruhnuk is released and we can see Torian on the official picture, I guess now the "right" path is to sacrifice Vette. I'm sad about that, I love her for the same reasons other people in this topic told (sassy, a heart-warming persona...) and Torian was not more than a nobody to me, but we're not the storytellers.

I feel there's a fallacy buried in there somewhere. Torian has no major role in Ruhnuk as the same Ruhnuk story plays out with or without him, and I have played Ruhnuk story in both cases to know. He makes a guest star appearance, but doesn't change the overall narrative.

He is simply in the Ruhnuk wallpaper art because he is a Mandalorian, and the artwork displays the 2 sides of Mandalorians fighting.

 

It is possible for future content to feature Vette. Would that make Vette living the right path?

 

Ultimately, Bioware adding an option for Vette to die, and also making it the auto-choice for 3/4ths of imperial characters is just one of the top 3 worst decisions they've every made in this game. It's clear someone who hated Vette was allowed too much creative freedom in the story writing there.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Traceguy

[Shayddow]

The problem I see is not being able to delegate responsibility in order to save both of them.  Notice this is only Imperials that lose a companion in this manner.

I rejected it by getting the other one from the Terminal, after I complete KOTET. And although I don't "see" them in the story anymore, I still do dailies with them.

[RavaakGalis]

Le 28/06/2023 à 17:32, SteveTheCynic a dit :

Do you even know what Chekov's Gun even *is*?

As someone working in theater world, I actually do know Chekov's gun. And your reasoning can't hold the line. Misdirecting is about the "not-that-important" Torian in the quest. But, showing him after a choice which can make him die before that extension is not misdirection. It tells something else.

 

Le 28/06/2023 à 17:32, SteveTheCynic a dit :

And I can't understand why you think that couldn't be exactly what happened.

Because of this:

Le 28/06/2023 à 16:58, RavaakGalis a dit :

when you ask for an official promotional artwork/poster/trailer/whatever, everything is calculated, you don't put your hand in a bowl and pick random paper with a name on it. We are not talking about a fan art. That choice was made on purpose, otherwise there were plenty of ways to make the artwork cool. If the devs/narrators wanted to stay ambiguous (as you say) about Torian's fate, do you really think they'd approve the picture as it is now?

 

Le 28/06/2023 à 17:32, SteveTheCynic a dit :

(Your reasoning would require the canonical Inquisitor to be Light Side...)

And why not? Would it be a problem, if so?

 

Le 28/06/2023 à 17:32, SteveTheCynic a dit :

So what?  If it was really "canon", why was it even a choice in the story?

For the very same reason Kyle Katarn can become the new Dark Lord of the Sith, Jaden can kill Rosh, Revan can be a dark side girl, and so over: letting a choice (or an illusion of choice) for players and their headcanon, because they like that. As I told before, having an "official way" won't force you to follow it if you don't want to, but it states something for narrative needs.

I guess you don't write encyclopedia, thus you don't care about what really happens. I do, and it's as important as practical. Always staying blur will cause big narrative issues and ridiculous twists. Once again, I'm not bothered if the Wrath is not the Commander and Vette has to be killed; this is not my game, but if official story tells the JK saved Torian, then okay, I keep that in mind while I'm wandering with my twi'lek. That's for this reason that thinking our story is the story is an error.

Anyway, it seems we're in a dead end. Not sure if it worths to keep discuss about that. I find your vision wrong, you find mine wrong.

 

Il y a 23 heures, Traceguy a dit :

He is simply in the Ruhnuk wallpaper art because he is a Mandalorian, and the artwork displays the 2 sides of Mandalorians fighting.

As I wrote before, there were plenty of solutions then: make him wearing his helmet (a covered face keeps the doubt), put someone as Fett or whoever, even some random mando. The choice to put him on the poster means something, no matter his importance in the storyline (as they couldn't give him some, otherwise it would have cause big plotholes if Torian was dead). The artwork is a way to give a direction without being in trouble with codes and player choices.

 

Il y a 23 heures, Traceguy a dit :

It is possible for future content to feature Vette. Would that make Vette living the right path?

Then, it would be a game-changer, and we'd be back to the "neither one or the other". But right now, Vette is nowhere.

 

Il y a 23 heures, Traceguy a dit :

Ultimately, Bioware adding an option for Vette to die, and also making it the auto-choice for 3/4ths of imperial characters is just one of the top 3 worst decisions they've every made in this game. It's clear someone who hated Vette was allowed too much creative freedom in the story writing there.

This is interesting, if I understand well. Auto-choices and choices by default can be a good thing to see which direction is taking original storyline.