5.0 Misconceptions

[stridemachine]

Yes, there is a lot of fail involved with 5.0. Bioware has made several head-scratching decisions and have said little to address player concerns. They absolutely could do a better job of informing players of upcoming class changes, CXP rates for various activities, etc. The lack of new endgame content, daily zones, warzone maps and the inattention to GSF is criminal considering they just dropped an "expansion." Yes, grinding 300 GC levels per character is insane (why not legacy? seriously). Everyone knows about the screwups, failures and what-could-have-beens. What I've also noticed is lot of misinformation floating around the forums about 5.0, and while the blame for this falls on Bioware for their lack of communication, the spread of misinformation is fueling the most forum rage seen since the great companion nerf of 4.x. Hopefully, we the players can help dispel some of the confusion before the servers empty completely. People will still be mad; few are capable of changing their viewpoint, but perhaps we can save a few of the fence-sitters. To that effect, please post misunderstandings (and clarifications if you have them) here.

 

Misconceptions/Clarifications:

* I need top tier gear for progression raiding and Command Crates are the only source of gear.

- Crafters can make gear comparable to top tier Command Crate gear. The main difference is the lack of a set bonus. Surely progression raiders can manage without set bonuses?

 

*Our guild can't gear up new players fast enough to join our raiding teams because (reasons).

-See above. Have a returning player who wants to join your raid team? Craft him a set of gear easily good enough to complete any raid out there, or buy it off the GTN.

*PVP gives a lot more CXP compared to Ops, heroics, quests, etc.

- Most people fail to realize that killing any mob elite or higher grants CXP.. Additionally, some of those activities drop crafting mats and CXP xp boxes. So while PVP warzones may grant about 600 cxp for completion vs finishing a story mode op reward of about 400-500, don't forget about all the bonus cxp gained by kiling elites and above.

 

*Grinding CXP is killing the game

- You're right. If you log on merely to progress your GC level, then yes the game will die (for you). Many people have already grinded 10+ GC levels after the first 1-2 days, which can easily cause burn out if that is your sole focus. Try this: rather than look at GC crates as the only means to progress, view them as bonus rewards for activities you already do. Crafted gear can get you where you want to be in the game. I realize most people can't see past the legendary color coding absent from their character sheet, but lacking such gear is not the end of your favorite activity.

 

**ps: If I'm wrong on any point please feel free to /slap me and point it out!

 

 

 

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[Rolodome]

- Crafters can make gear comparable to top tier Command Crate gear. The main difference is the lack of a set bonus. Surely progression raiders can manage without set bonuses?

Partially true. I believe they can make tier 1 purples, but nothing close to top tier.

 

Also, the only recipes I've seen so far are RNG legacy bound ones from command crates, so I'm assuming the rest are RNG and legacy bound as well. When you consider how long it's going to take for a good amount of crafters to be able to craft a full set to meet the demand, it's not much of a consolation.

[Aulus_Claudius]

Well, certain classes such as Snipers do in fact need their set boni, otherwise their rotation doesn't work due to energy problems, but what you theoretically "need" for certain content is beside the point. End-game players, be they raiders or PvPers, want best-in-slot gear, and when they don't have it and another player has an advantage over them because the other player was luckier than they were, player A is rightly going to be pissed. I have no problem with BiS gear being available to everyone outside of ops, as it's counter-productive anyway to offer a gear incentive for nim raids - something people do for the challenge - that just makes repeating them easier. CXP as a concept is even kinda neat, letting people gear up doing what they enjoy and not forcing one type of content onto anyone, but the RNG boxes were the wrong approach.

 

Compounding this is the fact that there is nothing new for end-gamers, making any new gear grind at all feel like a kick in the 'nads - basically, you're forced to re-grind the same content if you just want to get to the same place you were before 5.0 relative to that content. Add in the alt-unfriendly nature and you have the perfect storm that is 5.0 gearing.

[CarthSeverus]

CLAPCLAPCLAP!!!!! Hit the nail on the head straight. 300 lvls of GC is an enormous task and will burn out the most dedicated players here.I can say i tried to be a crate grabber and it gave me a migraine on my first toon.Made it to lvl 8 and decided to lvl a few of my alts so i can get back to conquest and other parts of game i enjoy. Now after getting 6 toons to 70 (praise Bestia) ive been having fun and hitting my GC lvls without really paying attention and also getting decent gear and crap in them.

[DoubleDoom]

Misconceptions/Clarifications:

* I need top tier gear for progression raiding and Command Crates are the only source of gear.

- Crafters can make gear comparable to top tier Command Crate gear. The main difference is the lack of a set bonus. Surely progression raiders can manage without set bonuses?

 

Spoken like a player who doesnt do NM operations (cant really call them progression raiders any more as lack of content means nothing to progress onto. Just the return to attacking the same bosses with slightly different class abilities to trying a different class knowing you will be stuck on that class if you do as it will take too long to gear another one).

 

The RNG element of drops hits endgame raiders hard. It will finish some teams or condemn them to HM for a long time (if they choose to stick around). The binding of gear to specific class is a big issue for endgame raiders as many would have multiple chars to raid on. e.g. scoundrel heal, commando dps and Vanguard tank. You can only gear as you play. So, grinding multiple chars to get them capable of NM ops is going to take a long long time.

 

The 4.0 method gave out BIS gear far too easily. 5.0 has gone the other way and made it far too long. I actually like the command xp method. Hitting a new level and getting a drop is exciting. However, that excitement is over seconds later when you open the crate and either get rubbish or the 20th head piece you have had for that role. Ok, it makes the excitement of getting a piece you need greater. However, will you still be in the game by the time your character is geared enough to do NM content?

 

A better solution would be to have a stash just like the cartel packs. It binds on the char (with the appropriate set bonus of the char) that you draw it out of the stash on. So, if you get you 3rd Headpiece, you could leave it in the stash and draw it out on the your 3rd char.

 

*Our guild can't gear up new players fast enough to join our raiding teams because (reasons).

-See above. Have a returning player who wants to join your raid team? Craft him a set of gear easily good enough to complete any raid out there, or buy it off the GTN.

 

Crafting is not good enough but that really isnt an issue as everyone is poorly geared now for NM ops. Serious raiding teams overcome that easily enough if its only one person and doesnt happen often.

 

There is always a delay after expansion to be able to build up gear to be able to do NM again. This time around, you could be looking at 6.0 before you can do NM ops on multiple chars.

 

Try this: rather than look at GC crates as the only means to progress, view them as bonus rewards for activities you already do.

 

Activities like NM ops you mean? except you cant do those.

 

**ps: If I'm wrong on any point please feel free to /slap me and point it out!

 

Everyone is wrong when it comes to posting on forums.

[Costello]

Worth remembering as well that you don't have to win the PvP warzone to get the points you just have to stand in the corner and touch yourself.

 

Where as all PvE content requires you to beat the content. In fact if you get in a group of like minded people in PvP you can let the otherside win to get the match completed even quicker and get back to queuing again, and guess what those people you just let win will be more than happy to oblige in continuing to queue against you. If your doing Star Fighters and suicide enough on some matches you may be able to end the entire thing by yourself in 5 minutes regardless of what the rest of your team are doing.

 

As for the crafting that requires tier 2 materials for tier 1 gear. I know go figure which according to the tool tip (possibly wrongly) this is hard mode flashpoints which can take an hour or so to complete for 1 and they often require two. So crafting isn't as simple as it might have first seemed.

[Kawiki]

Lipstick meet pig.

[Anzel]

Lipstick meet pig.

 

Exactly, I'm not going to settle for yet another system dependent on gambling. What a cheap excuse for content. Lazy and simple minded.

[stridemachine]

The RNG element of drops hits endgame raiders hard. It will finish some teams or condemn them to HM for a long time (if they choose to stick around). The binding of gear to specific class is a big issue for endgame raiders as many would have multiple chars to raid on. e.g. scoundrel heal, commando dps and Vanguard tank. You can only gear as you play. So, grinding multiple chars to get them capable of NM ops is going to take a long long time.

 

Crafted gear is the solution

 

Crafting is not good enough but that really isnt an issue as everyone is poorly geared now for NM ops. Serious raiding teams overcome that easily enough if its only one person and doesnt happen often.

 

There is always a delay after expansion to be able to build up gear to be able to do NM again. This time around, you could be looking at 6.0 before you can do NM ops on multiple chars.

 

Sorry I'm a little slow....how does any of that refute the validity of crafted gear? Are you saying you need BIS gear to do NIM? Because according to Musco you can craft up to jusr 2 ilevel below the top rated gear:

 

If that is confusing let me give you some examples using made up numbers from Fallen Empire:

Tier 1 – 216 with set bonus

Tier 2 – 220 with set bonus

Tier 3 – 224 with set bonus

 

You would be able to craft at the following ratings:

Tier 1 – 216 without a set bonus

Tier 2 – 218 without a set bonus

Tier 3 – 222 without a set bonus

[Nomular]

From a PvP perspective if it has no set bonus it is vendor trash. Since you can't craft set bonuses crafted gear is worthless. Ill be wearing my 208's for a long time. I don't think I will see a gear upgrade for months.

[ludoviccb]

Crafted gear is the solution

 

 

 

Sorry I'm a little slow....how does any of that refute the validity of crafted gear? Are you saying you need BIS gear to do NIM? Because according to Musco you can craft up to jusr 2 ilevel below the top rated gear:

 

Crafted gear got the wrong stats distribution, which make is a lot less effective when compared to set bonus gear.

 

To compare with the 4.0 quote in your post. A 222 crafted gear would be in be in between a 216 and a 220 set gear for the stats. I've got the schematics for some tier 1 and they would be in between 220 and 224 for the gear stats. I didn't get any mods yet to see their value.

 

On top of that, it doesn't have the set bonus. The set bonus is important for close fights. I've done some tests on my sentinel during 4.0 and it was a difference around 5% DPS for the 6 pieces set bonus vs none. For a 6.5 minutes fight, that's 20 more seconds that it would take to kill the boss in PvE. It can easily make the difference between a kill and a wipe.

[stridemachine]

From a PvP perspective if it has no set bonus it is vendor trash. Since you can't craft set bonuses crafted gear is worthless. Ill be wearing my 208's for a long time. I don't think I will see a gear upgrade for months.

 

According to this thread about Bolster: - Do you even need to grind the new gear? Gear largely doesn't matter. Of course you could also keep your 208 armorings and swap in crafted mods and enhancements.

[Toraak]

From a PvP perspective if it has no set bonus it is vendor trash. Since you can't craft set bonuses crafted gear is worthless. Ill be wearing my 208's for a long time. I don't think I will see a gear upgrade for months.

 

 

It's not just PvP. For PvE if it's not a set piece it's vendor trash. Not to mention the Crafted gear all seems to be very low on the power stat which makes them completely useless to get. Either you get lucky RNG, or your better off staying in 224's.

[Clarian]

Yes, there is a lot of fail involved with 5.0. Bioware has made several head-scratching decisions and have said little to address player concerns.

Agreed.

[stridemachine]

Crafted gear got the wrong stats distribution, which make is a lot less effective when compared to set bonus gear.

 

To compare with the 4.0 quote in your post. A 222 crafted gear would be in be in between a 216 and a 220 set gear for the stats. I've got the schematics for some tier 1 and they would be in between 220 and 224 for the gear stats. I didn't get any mods yet to see their value.

 

On top of that, it doesn't have the set bonus. The set bonus is important for close fights. I've done some tests on my sentinel during 4.0 and it was a difference around 5% DPS for the 6 pieces set bonus vs none. For a 6.5 minutes fight, that's 20 more seconds that it would take to kill the boss in PvE. It can easily make the difference between a kill and a wipe.

 

I'll concede to your knowledge of NIM content. To clarify, are you claiming that NIM cannot be beaten with crafted gear? Would you support the statement that all other content can be beaten with crafted gear? Granted, we're still in early access so we haven't seen all the crafting schematics, but I'm willing to bet that crafters will be pumping out near top tier level gear at about the same cadence of a player regearing for NIM in previous expansions. Fair statements?

[DarthSpuds]

Biggest misconception seems to be that KotET was going to be an improvement on KotFE.

 

Next biggest misconception was the belief that they were listening to our concerns - they clearly didn't give a flying Flutterplume what our concerns were.

 

All The Best

[Jamtas]

I'll concede to your knowledge of NIM content. To clarify, are you claiming that NIM cannot be beaten with crafted gear? Would you support the statement that all other content can be beaten with crafted gear? Granted, we're still in early access so we haven't seen all the crafting schematics, but I'm willing to bet that crafters will be pumping out near top tier level gear at about the same cadence of a player regearing for NIM in previous expansions. Fair statements?

 

The set bonuses are needed at that level. Crafted might look similar stats wise, but the lack of the set bonus and how that helps with increasing damage mitigation for tanks, increase dps output and energy conservation for DPS and crits/energy management for heals are what make them lacking for tougher end game content.

[curulz]

I'll concede to your knowledge of NIM content. To clarify, are you claiming that NIM cannot be beaten with crafted gear? Would you support the statement that all other content can be beaten with crafted gear? Granted, we're still in early access so we haven't seen all the crafting schematics, but I'm willing to bet that crafters will be pumping out near top tier level gear at about the same cadence of a player regearing for NIM in previous expansions. Fair statements?

 

Crafting is going to depend on people getting the schematics and mats. Since the high end schemes will only come at high rank, it will likely take much longer than previous expansions.

[Wayshuba]

Okay, since we want to point out misconceptions and myths.

 

Misconceptions/Clarifications:

* I need top tier gear for progression raiding and Command Crates are the only source of gear.

- Crafters can make gear comparable to top tier Command Crate gear. The main difference is the lack of a set bonus. Surely progression raiders can manage without set bonuses?.

 

Except that the schematics for this gear are RNG drops from the crates. So yes, the crates are indeed the only source of gear. Some you can put on and some will require the schematic to drop so you can craft it. In addition, the crafted gear does not go up to the same level as operations gear.

 

*Our guild can't gear up new players fast enough to join our raiding teams because (reasons).

-See above. Have a returning player who wants to join your raid team? Craft him a set of gear easily good enough to complete any raid out there, or buy it off the GTN.

.

 

See my above. Also, I might have missed it but where can you go about farming Level 10 mats? Oh yeah, Ops and from companion missions only. Sometimes people want to gear by playing the game, not by crafting 14 pieces of gear for every alt and player.

 

*Grinding CXP is killing the game

- You're right. If you log on merely to progress your GC level, then yes the game will die (for you). Many people have already grinded 10+ GC levels after the first 1-2 days, which can easily cause burn out if that is your sole focus. Try this: rather than look at GC crates as the only means to progress, view them as bonus rewards for activities you already do. Crafted gear can get you where you want to be in the game. I realize most people can't see past the legendary color coding absent from their character sheet, but lacking such gear is not the end of your favorite activity. .

 

Before 4.0 we liked to do Hard Mode FPs and Ops. Those now require 236 gear - to do the same exact content we did before, I might add. That gear does not become even available until CxP Level 91. Secondly, when someone has already received eight crates and had a grand total of one piece of gear drop - they laugh and say BW can stick this where the sun doesn't shine. Then, as people see it starts to take HOURS to grind one crate and get NOTHING useful for their time.... I'll stop there.

 

There is not a single thing beneficial or useful to the player base with this system. Generally, MMOs improve gearing acquisition as time goes on. BW, on the other hand, took a pretty good gearing system and completely erased five years of improvements for what?

Edited December 2, 2016 by Wayshuba

[Nomular]

According to this thread about Bolster: - Do you even need to grind the new gear? Gear largely doesn't matter. Of course you could also keep your 208 armorings and swap in crafted mods and enhancements.

 

Unfortunately I don't think anyone knows yet. Nobody has the best gear yet so how can we tell what the difference is between that and crap. I did see someone in a wz with signifigantly more hp than me at one point that was not a tank or a Jug with their temporary endurance boost. My experience with bolster and from what I have read is that it can be unpredictable based on what you are wearing.

 

With Bolsters unknowns at this point what if I want to adjust my stat distribution for more crit or sustained damage. I won't just be able to look at my character sheet, ill have to be experimenting with different piece ect...

 

Finally I might not need the new gear for my old characters but what if I want to play a new character? I am supposed to grind for 180 days to get some usable gear? I'd rather not play.

[Wayshuba]

Sorry I'm a little slow....how does any of that refute the validity of crafted gear? Are you saying you need BIS gear to do NIM? Because according to Musco you can craft up to jusr 2 ilevel below the top rated gear:

 

Haha, haha, haha. Have you seen what the mats are required for those 222 non-set gear? Each piece requires 2 void matter catalysts (the new tier 2 dark matter catalysts and 8 tier 2 isotopes in addition to a slew of other materials. VMC only drop from end bosses in an Op! So you need to do 28 Ops, and get ALL of the end boss crafting drops (in addition to 90 tier 2 isotopes), to make ONE set of gear.

 

In addition, to craft 222 gear you still need to have achieved 181+ CxP level and have the RNG gods smile upon you with the schematics as well.

 

End game crafting was barely viable in 4.0 and it is just as barely viable in 5.0. Since 4.0 doing the content has always been the better way to go, just like it is now. The only end game gear I ever crafted during the 4.0 era was hilts and barrels for main hands as it was way to resource (and time) intensive for all the gear.

 

Not for nothing, but before 4.0 dropped the big thing was you were supposed to be able to get Op level gear without having to run Ops. That was the big promise BW made. How did you do that, by running Ops to get the gear to reverse engineer and by running Ops to get the drops to get the Dark Matter Catalyst from the end boss as a mat needed to make that gear. That was the wonderful Catch 22 BS in 4.0 and it is the same in 5.0 as well.

 

End game crafted gear is so ridiculous in its acquisition and requirements, that is is NOT a viable end game gearing alternative.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Wayshuba

[stridemachine]

I get it: change isn't always good and Bioware's choices are a step backward in many respects. Yes BW screwed up hard by raising the level cap without introducing new raids and FP's. And yes i agree that GC level should be legacy.. I'm just pointing out that everything in this game is doable with crafted gear (except NIM apparently).

 

And yes, getting the components and schematics will take time -- again another bad design choice by Bioware because of level cap raise without new content -- but with everyone on the server leveling their GC level, opening boxes and completing various dailies (not to mention the universal mastery stat decreasing the range of schematics needed), raid level gear will be available soon. If you rely on optimal stat allocation and set bonus to complete HM's then unfortunately, you will have problems.

Edited December 2, 2016 by stridemachine

[ludoviccb]

I'll concede to your knowledge of NIM content. To clarify, are you claiming that NIM cannot be beaten with crafted gear? Would you support the statement that all other content can be beaten with crafted gear? Granted, we're still in early access so we haven't seen all the crafting schematics, but I'm willing to bet that crafters will be pumping out near top tier level gear at about the same cadence of a player regearing for NIM in previous expansions. Fair statements?

 

It might be possible for a group that got the NiM operation on farm for some fights. But for fights like Brontes and Styrak in 4.0, there is no way to clear it with the full group in crafted gear. For a progression group, the gear is even more important since they are learning how to do it and what they lack in skill for that fight, they make up with having better gear to cover some of the mistakes made. This is why, in a operation, the easiest bosses should be the first ones and the hardest the last. That way, people could progress and improve their gear by kill the first bosses.

[stridemachine]

Haha, haha, haha. Have you seen what the mats are required for those 222 non-set gear? Each piece requires 2 void matter catalysts (the new tier 2 dark matter catalysts and 8 tier 2 isotopes in addition to a slew of other materials. VMC only drop from end bosses in an Op! So you need to do 28 Ops, and get ALL of the end boss crafting drops (in addition to 90 tier 2 isotopes), to make ONE set of gear.

 

In addition, to craft 222 gear

 

End game crafted gear is so ridiculous in its acquisition and requirements, that is is NOT a viable end game gearing alternative.

 

Good points --crafting mats for top tie gear is pretty crazy. However, isn't 224 gear already in the game from 4.0? Are you referring to a higher level? If so, what level gear is necessary for anything short of NIM?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

 

Misconceptions/Clarifications:

* I need top tier gear for progression raiding and Command Crates are the only source of gear.

- Crafters can make gear comparable to top tier Command Crate gear. The main difference is the lack of a set bonus. Surely progression raiders can manage without set bonuses?

 

*Our guild can't gear up new players fast enough to join our raiding teams because (reasons).

-See above. Have a returning player who wants to join your raid team? Craft him a set of gear easily good enough to complete any raid out there, or buy it off the GTN.

 

.

 

Where do mats come from for top end crafted good though? Operations isn't it? Catch 22 possibly? What are crafted good selling for? Is it affordable? Just saying "buy crafted goods" doesn't make it a viable option what so ever.