Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Changes

[Frenesi]

 

That's "tricky" to say the least. The Storm skill makes the next two Ion Pulse // Explosive Surge consume no energy for Shield Specialists (Vanguard). Does that mean, it doesn't count as a gap closer anymore because you could increase the energy management a bit to squeeze out a few % more damage? - I don't think so.

 

Or how about Force Leap generating 3 Focus? You could combine it with Blade Blitz to get away and jump back in. Does that mean, neither Blade Blitz nor Force Leap qualify as a valid gap closers because they could be abused to increase the theoretical max. DPS?

 

What about the 100% defense for 1.5s after activating Scamper? Not a gap closer anymore? What about a free-of-cost, instant cast Kolto Pack after using Scamper? It doesn't even consume Upper Hand... Or what about a Hightail it that either creates a 3s immunity to cc-effects or leaves behind bomblets?

 

And the same is true if someone states that a Shadow doesn't have a free stealth, because a Force Cloak can be used every 90~120s to reset the cooldown of Blackout for a better energy management.

 

 

 

 

 

Shield specialist is tank, so question of maximizing DPS doesn't apply to it.

 

Force leap/Blade blitz is a 3 seconds of DPS loss that denies any possible use you get out of extra focus.

 

Scamper isn't spammed on CD to maximize DPS. It gets saved for appropriate moments.

 

And yes, Deception doesn't have a free stealth. It gets rotationally burned almost on CD to increase DPS and reset 2 skills. It goes as far as CD reduction mastery being mandatory in PVE.

 

PS for Deception isn't ONLY spammed nearly on CD for damage increase - it can actually REDUCE "normal" damage if used at wrong moment, by over-capping charges. It also can not be used to approach target before engagement - becouse you'll be unable to put Reckless charge on it, and as such will lose damage. Now add in the fact that Deception gets even more reliant on crits with new skill. Now add in the fact that it's already underperforming spec. So yes, it's not on-deman gap-closer for Deception. Just like Zealous leap isn't on-demand gap-closer for Focus. Just like Force leap wasn't on-demand gap-closer for Annihilation, before it got reworked.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Frenesi

[UTlNNl]

snip

 

I'm not sure why you're such a proponent of homogenizing classes even more than they've already become.

 

Again, tanks cannot use the two utilities linked to speed increases.

 

Shadow Stride has no minimum distance requirement, and doesn't cost a GCD. Comparing it to Storm and Leap is ridiculous because you don't have to waste time backing up, and then waste a GCD to use it. Using Shadow Stride rotationally is not abusing it. That's simply how the devs decided to make it.

 

The old Force Speed worked fine on its own. I don't want the Sniper roll, or a Mad Dash, or a leap. The thing that made our mobility unique in the first place is what I want back.

[Lillythiel]

Agree with this one about sorcs. I really can't understand nerfing sorcs dps, dps-wise it's already behind other specs by a good ammount (talking about lightning here, not sure about madness because i don't play it). Being potentially the lowest-scoring dps while other ranged specs bath their blasters and rifles in chocolate is very dissapointing.

If you look at the parsely results a bit more closely, you'll notice that Sage // Sorcerers have the longest "opening burst" (up to 50s). That's because they have five to six times the energy/force reserve (and no penelity for running low), but only twice to three times the skill cost (and a totally different energy replenishment mechanism). So sure, against a dummy with 1.5m HP the Sage won't score that well.

 

Phase Walk for Sages makes at least some sense. It's the only real instant gap operner (similar to Propulsion Round or Hightail It)... but I agree with DathCognusSion, the overall defensive capabilities of Sages are outstanding.

 

Shield specialist is tank, so question of maximizing DPS doesn't apply to it.

Force leap/Blade blitz is a 3 seconds of DPS loss that denies any possible use you get out of extra focus.

Scamper isn't spammed on CD to maximize DPS. It gets saved for appropriate moments.

Shield specialist is tank, but that doesn't mean this type of argumentation - it isn't valid if there are other uses - still applies. Both Blade Blitz and Force Leap deal damage, so there are no '3 seconds of DPS loss'? Scamper isn't spammed for DPS, but for defensive reasons.... same argument was used to exclude Force Camouflage form the calculation (due to it's defensive bonuses).

 

And yes, Deception doesn't have a free stealth. It gets rotationally burned almost on CD to increase DPS and reset 2 skills. It goes as far as CD reduction mastery being mandatory in PVE

Well, go ahead and show me the overall DPS loss that is caused by not using that skill every 90~120s. It's three times against a 1.5m dummy.

 

It goes as far as CD reduction mastery being mandatory in PVE

Even better, let's discuss the extra DPS advantage created by lowering the cooldown by 30s.

 

And once we did that, let's check how the theoretical max. DPS against a dummy can be translated into a real case scenario like PvP. Let's check who uses Force Cloak to save their lifes and who uses it "rotational" for some extra DPS. Guess "dying" causes a higher DPS loss...

 

So yes, it's not on-deman gap-closer for Deception. Just like Zealous leap isn't on-demand gap-closer for Focus. Just like Force leap wasn't on-demand gap-closer for Annihilation, before it got reworked.

And here we are down to discuss whether you can compare an attack skill with 12~15s cooldown with a skill that has a 90~120s cooldown. How about comparing the DPS loss in either case - since it seems the most relevant aspect of your argumentation?

Edited November 8, 2016 by Lillythiel

[Lillythiel]

The old Force Speed worked fine on its own. I don't want the Sniper roll, or a Mad Dash, or a leap. The thing that made our mobility unique in the first place is what I want back.

I answered the first part already, so I shortened the quote. But to add a thing. Just because a skill doesn't have a minimum range doesn't mean you're forced to make it part of your rotation. Vanguards and even Guardians have skills with a max. range of 10m or more. In other words, all it would take to use Storm // Force Leap is to step back 1m (and/or use those ranged attacks right before you use the leap).

In case of a Vanguard, you have up to 9s until you ought to use Stockstrike again. In case of a Guardian, you can use Blade Storm, Saber Throw and maybe even a Dispatch in a row to get from 4m to 10m.

 

The same way, the opener for Infiltration posted on Dulfy suggests that you to use Force Breach // Discharge from a 10m range a milisecond before you use Shadow Stride // Phantom Stride. But that doesn't mean the developers have planned it this way.

 

In regard of the Force Speed. See, it's not that the Shadow "lost" anything. The devs just balanced the cooldown in accordance to the applicability and versatility of that skill and the existence of other alternatives. The same way, Hold the Line was nerfed as soon as they've added Storm and Propulsion Round.

 

And sure, why wouldn't players vote for a 'broken' aspect to return. But 'community preference' should always be secondary to class balance... and that's what the devs did - at least in my opinion.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Lillythiel

[Dewlmenow]

First off, I think that the decision to remove Phasewalk from Assassins is a mistake. While I used it in NiM raids on my Sorc often, I don't think that Sorcs really needed it to begin with. Assassins, especially Deception, need Phasewalk for mobility.

 

With that being said, I really want to talk about Sorcs here. This is the design problem with Sorcs at the moment. They are getting too tanky for PvP which is making them too strong. At the same time, because of how strong they are, their dps is either left alone or nerfed. With 4.0, Sorc dps was in a terrible state for raiding. Sorcerer specs should be able to hold their own in dps with Mercs and Snipers, but that is just not the case. Madness is in an abysmal state right now, and Lightning isn't any different. Part of the problem is that I think the dps spread is too big. If you want Sorcs to be in a healthy state for this game, then their utility needs to be nerfed, but their damage needs to be buffed. For instance, Corrupted Barrier is super strong in PvP, while pretty much useless in PvE. I suggest cutting the healing from 2% to either 1% or .5%. Additionally, put Phasewalk on a longer Cooldown. On the other hand, buff the dps of the classes to make them more competitive. Sorc dps just aren't desired because they are so weak right now that you have to be really good at it to make it work. As far as mobility goes, Sorcs have it really good already. Giving us more mobility just makes us more of a utility pick than an actual dps, and that just doesn't work in NiM because certain dps is required, and it is too good in PvP.

 

Everyone always talks about nerfing Sorcs because they are too strong in PvP. I think that these claims are often exaggerated but not unfounded. If you really want to balance Sorcs properly, then nerf their utility, and buff their damage. Madness should do equal damage to Virulence and Innovative Ordinance. It also needs some rotational help, because the rotation is a mess right now when it comes to Force management. Lightning should do equal damage to Arsenal (I didn't say Marksmanship here because that needs a buff as well). I've played this class in the most difficult content in this game. Please listen when I say that you are going about this the wrong way in order to make this class healthy.

 

As a side note, I think that Sorc healing is in a really good place right now and should be left alone. If the utility is nerfed as I suggest, then they will become less oppressive in PvP. Though judging by the changes to Mercs, they are going to be the oppressive ones now as far as healers, and maybe even dps, are concerned.

 

This nailed it. Sorceror DPS has been inferior to sniper and mercenary for 2 entire expansions now, while their utility has been too strong for PVP. Going further in this direction is and just makes the game more boring for the few remaining sorc DPS players that are any good.

[DynoByte]

Never underestimate how hard they will try to nerf Shadows and buff Sorcs ... NEVER!!! Unfortunately, this has almost always been the case. I just wonder if Sorcs just cry the most or if the devs just play Sorcs mostly either way ... It is sad. Shame on you again, this time after giving them our abilities you now are taking them a way from our class. Any time they make the Shadow viable or fun to play it seems very short lived. Shame on you ... Shame.

[DarthCognusSion]

Never underestimate how hard they will try to nerf Shadows and buff Sorcs ... NEVER!!! Unfortunately, this has almost always been the case. I just wonder if Sorcs just cry the most or if the devs just play Sorcs mostly either way ... It is sad. Shame on you again, this time after giving them our abilities you now are taking them a way from our class. Any time they make the Shadow viable or fun to play it seems very short lived. Shame on you ... Shame.

 

Sorcs are getting "buffed" in the worst way here. As a Sorc main since launch, I don't like the way Sorc is being taken. It is just nonsensical. Also, if you look at PvP, everyone complains about Sorcs being OP. I don't think any Sorc who plays PvP has the right to complain about the state of Sorc, as it is currently amazing. As someone who enjoys playing Sorc in NiM (because it is challenging at times), Sorc dps is in a horrid state, and judging by their statements, it is going to get worse. DPS must be able to do dps, and no amount of utility can make up for that in NiM. Sorcs need to do more damage, full stop. As a result we need to lose utility to balance it out. Don't blame Sorc players for the developers' misunderstanding of the current PvP and PvE climates.

 

As a direct note to Eric, can you please get someone from the combat team to have a dialogue about this. I would be happy to offer concrete suggestions, numbers buffs and nerfs, etc. to get Sorc in a healthy state for every aspect of the game, but there needs to be a conversation because right now this just isn't working.

Edited November 9, 2016 by DarthCognusSion

[robertthebard]

 

Sith Inquisitor

Sorcerer

Coming from Knights of the Fallen Empire, we felt the that the Sorcerer was in a really good place and so they aren’t receiving a whole lot of changes this Update. One big change that we made with Fallen Empire was to work on increasing the overall mobility and survivability of the Sorcerer. Additionally, we really wanted to separate the Sorcerer as a ranged class from that of the Assassin. To accomplish that goal, we are making the following changes:

• Phase Walk: Removed from base class. Now Sorcerer exclusive.
  
• Crushing Darkness: Removed from base class. Now Sorcerer exclusive.
  
• Force Lightning: Removed from base class. Now Sorcerer exclusive.
  
• Thrash: Removed from base class. Now Assassin exclusive.
  

 

Well, removing Phase Walk from the Advanced Class that started out with it is really backwards thinking here. This renders my Tanks, Shadow and Assassin, a lot less useful in group content. Guess it's time to pack up, when a completely meaningless aspect of the game continues to break the rest of it.

 

Send me an email when you figure out that PvP doesn't keep the lights on, and start looking at what these skills are actually taking away from PvE before you decide to mollycoddle the whiners on the PvP forums.

[-Spc]

Yes, please DO NOT remove phase walk from shadows / assassins, this is a key feature for tanks.

[Shutate]

It seemed to me that you hate shadow/assassin… Do you know how hard already to play shadow good… shadow is squishy， can never chase up an operative or mercenary… cant really kill anything… and why do shadow/assassin deserved to lose phase walk？

 

Don't remove phase walk from shadow pls! You guys must have read the plan wrong. It was meant to remove it from sage but you somehow mixed up!

[jedial]

I’ve seen a lot of good stuff in this thread and I think it’s obvious that there are a lot of us who don’t want phase walk removed from Shadows/Sins.

 

I’m not going to repeat stuff others have already said, but I will add this: IMO, in PvP phase walk is the only reliable escape for Shadows/Sins. I’ve played a bit of PvP in my day. I’m definitely not elite, but I’m no scrub either. Force speed is kinda meh as an escape because each class has a gap closer of their own. Plus, it’s one of the longer cd’s compared to other classes. What about cloaking out? Yeah it works sometimes, but I stopped using that as my primary escape a long time ago because it doesn’t take even the scrubbiest of scrubs long to figure out that a quick knockback as soon as they see you cloak out will pop you right back out of stealth. So instead, I leverage utilities to use it as a second cleanse/resilience.

So here’s my crazy idea to make up for the loss of phase walk: Add a short immunity from ANY stealth breaking attack to cloak out. Even 2 seconds would be long enough to give you a chance to get out of knockback range make this a more reliable escape. And yeah I get that this really only helps PvP and that keeping phase walk is way better.

 

I’ll also add in that the few times I have run my Shadows/Sins as dps in ops, I too have found phase walk useful at times. But I agree that it is more important for tank spec in ops.

 

So please, please, please don’t remove phase walk from Shadows/Sins. It’s not only extremely useful, it’s one of the character things that have made Shadows/Sins so fun to play. I’ve been a sub since launch and with each update in the past couple of years I have been questioning why. This is a stupid thing to quit a game over, but it might be the final straw for me.

[Givemedanger]

Unlike most people here i like the changes. Can't wait.

[nyrkverse]

I’ll also add in that the few times I have run my Shadows/Sins as dps in ops, I too have found phase walk useful at times. But I agree that it is more important for tank spec in ops.

 

It's just as useful for dps and pretty much essential for Deception in its current incarnation.

 

It's also a shame that Sorcs are paying so dearly for all the goodies they have been given. PvE Sorc DPS don't care about teleporting around a boss they can hit from 30-35 mts, they'd rather do better dps

[Jedi_riches]

The thing I don't get about phase walk right from the beginning is that you have a ability to move away from combat, they are a melee tank/dps so why let them jump 30m would it not be better to give them a better dcd somewhere as to keep them in the thick of battle (where they are actually supposed to be)?

[Tsetso]

The thing I don't get about phase walk right from the beginning is that you have a ability to move away from combat, they are a melee tank/dps so why let them jump 30m would it not be better to give them a better dcd somewhere as to keep them in the thick of battle (where they are actually supposed to be)?

 

there is another dcd, the problem is that it's tied to force speed, effectively making it not a mobility skill, but a dcd.

[Frenesi]

 

Shield specialist is tank, but that doesn't mean this type of argumentation - it isn't valid if there are other uses - still applies. Both Blade Blitz and Force Leap deal damage, so there are no '3 seconds of DPS loss'? Scamper isn't spammed for DPS, but for defensive reasons.... same argument was used to exclude Force Camouflage form the calculation (due to it's defensive bonuses).

 

 

Well, go ahead and show me the overall DPS loss that is caused by not using that skill every 90~120s. It's three times against a 1.5m dummy.

 

 

Even better, let's discuss the extra DPS advantage created by lowering the cooldown by 30s.

 

And once we did that, let's check how the theoretical max. DPS against a dummy can be translated into a real case scenario like PvP. Let's check who uses Force Cloak to save their lifes and who uses it "rotational" for some extra DPS. Guess "dying" causes a higher DPS loss...

 

 

And here we are down to discuss whether you can compare an attack skill with 12~15s cooldown with a skill that has a 90~120s cooldown. How about comparing the DPS loss in either case - since it seems the most relevant aspect of your argumentation?

 

Oh dear, you have no idea what you are talking about, are you?

 

First of all, let's clear some ground - I'm talking about PVE here. becouse that's where DPS is the defining factor of DD class, and hardly anything else. PVP never had rotations set in stone, so entire discussion about "what is and what is not gap closer" is pointless there.

 

Tanks are reactive professions. They don't need to chase after top numbers - they need to react to situations as they arise. As such, Vanguards can afford to save Storm for when it's needed, and choose to either utilize it as gap closer or for bonuses it gives.

 

Same argumentation applies for Scoundrels. It's situational skill, not something burned every time it's available.

 

I DARE you to show me parse that gets etra damage from Blade Blits+Force leap. I dare you. Show it to me. Show me that epic damage Force leap deals. Becosue let me tell you right now - you talk complete ******** here.

 

Force cloak never was used for defencive reasons in PVE. It was used to: 1)Get extra force regen; 2)Reset Blackout for more force regen; 3)Reset Reckless for more crits and Discharge. Not using it causes MASSIVE DPS loss over the course of the fight, completely destroying your already force-negative rotations, and forcing you to use AA much more than you should. This loss will get even more massive once Reaping strike comes into picture. Again, you show complete incompetence in what you are talking about.

 

FInally, I didn't compare PW to FC. YOU did. I just answered to that comparison.

[HyperAxiom]

Honestly, I'd prefer if you ditched the ****** and unreliable shadow stride and left phase walk as it is please. Been shadow tanking since before PW, and it's one of the most useful shadow abilities you've added to the game, especially in pvp.

 

Although, given BW history of listening to community, they're not even reading this thread any more.

 

We want to like you, why do you make it so hard to do so?

Edited November 9, 2016 by HyperAxiom

[XhrisShan]

Unlike most people here i like the changes. Can't wait.

The only opinion Bioware will listen to.

Cap this post; watch the next stream/devposts.

[FlavivsAetivs]

Force cloak never was used for defencive reasons in PVE. It was used to: 1)Get extra force regen; 2)Reset Blackout for more force regen; 3)Reset Reckless for more crits and Discharge. Not using it causes MASSIVE DPS loss over the course of the fight, completely destroying your already force-negative rotations, and forcing you to use AA much more than you should. This loss will get even more massive once Reaping strike comes into picture. Again, you show complete incompetence in what you are talking about.

 

Actually no, even with the addition of reaping strike and a procc'd assassinate to the shadow rotation, and with the changes in what force regen is applied to as well as its duration, saber strike should effectively be gone from infiltration's "rotation." (Infil doesn't actually have a rotation at the moment, which is part of why it's so fun to play).

 

However infiltration WILL get absolutely obliterated in the first one or two patches, and without phase walk it won't even be viable for many hard mode fights. It will be a class that has to be carried and/or left on the boss at all times. In PvP it will be worthless.

 

And let's face it we all know they'll nerf serenity just for the heck of it.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited November 9, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[DarrelK]

Shadow/Sin seems to be getting some quite odd changes.

Removing stances and making Guard available always seems like a pretty bad decision to me, and it mostly lowers the skill cap of the class - stance dancing and quickly guarding someone while maintaining optimal high dps was something that had it's pros and cons, and to make the pros outweigh the cons, it had to be pulled off correctly, quickly, and at the right time. All in all - yet another dumbing down of the class.

The one added burst ability, while nice, does not seem to be enough to solve the issues of Deception being unable to actually burst things properly, especially in a hardswitch comp team ranked setting.

 

Also. Phase Walk, rest in peace. Honestly, sorcs should not have phase walk. Removing it in general is fine with me (we need to remove mobility, not have more of it). Giving it to sorcs, however, and removing it from assassins is not fine. Especially when getting nothing in return.

 

Anyway, your whole new design of supposedly giving more mobility to classes (especially for ranged ones) is just flat out bad. All this mobility creep WILL be insanely hard to balance, and it will inevitably lead to a massive amount of balance problems soon. It has happened in so many other games before.

[Kirpputori]

Shadow/Sin seems to be getting some quite odd changes.

Removing stances and making Guard available always seems like a pretty bad decision to me, and it mostly lowers the skill cap of the class - stance dancing and quickly guarding someone while maintaining optimal high dps was something that had it's pros and cons, and to make the pros outweigh the cons, it had to be pulled off correctly, quickly, and at the right time. All in all - yet another dumbing down of the class.

 

Well, if using vendors is too hard and confusing (for some people apparently), what can you expect

[Iona_Var]

Since they are taking an assassin ability and make it for sorcs only, how about lowering the cd on force speed for assassins only?

[Sith-Viscera]

Really, taking Phase walk away? U think that will keep the sniveling whiners quiet? They'll find some thing else to complain about, til u will remove it to. It will never end. No one will ever be happy.

[dalethaan]

I am almost tempted to give my sage defense mods just so I can see the light-saber actually being used, I know the use wasnt very common but come on, did you *have* to take double strike away, I do hope you don't expect us to take those Kotfe lightsaber fights seriously then

[FlavivsAetivs]

The one added burst ability, while nice, does not seem to be enough to solve the issues of Deception being unable to actually burst things properly, especially in a hardswitch comp team ranked setting.

 

We already have the longest, most complex, and most aenemic burst in the game. This doesn't change that.

 

Since they are taking an assassin ability and make it for sorcs only, how about lowering the cd on force speed for assassins only?

 

If they're taking Phase Walk away I want a 15 second CD on Force Speed again.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited November 9, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs