You Guys Are Not Listening At All - Good Luck with the 5.0 Launch

[KnightOfTython]

I don't play PvP here because it's pointless. "YAY, let's all get in a WZ and get a mount, that we can't use in WZs". That's been PvP here since I got here. Conquests was another area where I thought they could save PvP, but they totally dropped the ball on that too.

 

However, what bolsters are these games providing to keep people in PvP?

 

Well not all MMOs have bolsters on PvE gear to play PvP but the PvP objectives have interesting rewards.

That's the issue with SWTOR PvP, everyone thinks it's all about gear but actually it's a bad player habit in SWTOR because lack of PvP design.

Edited October 23, 2016 by KnightOfTython

[Wayshuba]

Interesting. In any other MMO I played their are some players who ONLY PvP. Was and is true in LOTRO, was and is true in GW2, and so on.

 

Currently, SWTOR facilitates that as well. Now they are throwing it out the window to force you to play something you may not want to play.

 

In addition, for those that might not have been here in the v1.x days or with the Battlemaster Packs, they fixed and changed them because of the detrimental effect it had on PvP. So to sit there and say - man it up - is just plain ignorant. They are now going back and introducing two things at once that in fact did have a very negative impact on PvP - as it will again.

 

Now, that being said, I do think they need to eliminate the "expertise" mechanic. But they should also consider only having, at most, two tiers of high end gear - not 5 in PvE as they do today (204/208/216/220/224).

 

Oh, and if we are going to go with the "if you don't grind it you lose attitude", we can also say good bye to ranked PvP. PvP is about skill, not who spends more time in their basement grinding gear.

[Tsillah]

You're not taking into account the amount of alts people have. After the first month when people have geared themselves gearing an alt is probably going to be very painful.

 

Again I doubt it will be that bad and don't forget that gear can be sent around still as mods can be ripped from gear still.

 

Also from a pvp point of view I still think the gear difference won't be as big and even though I don't pvp in this game a whole lot, I find that I become a better player in pvp from fighting against better geared opponents as long as the difference is not too great. I find currently that this difference is just too big but without expertise I feel the difference between the tiers will not be as big. In fact it might cause me to PvP more.

[Tsillah]

Interesting. In any other MMO I played their are some players who ONLY PvP. Was and is true in LOTRO, was and is true in GW2, and so on.

 

Currently, SWTOR facilitates that as well. Now they are throwing it out the window to force you to play something you may not want to play.

 

In addition, for those that might not have been here in the v1.x days or with the Battlemaster Packs, they fixed and changed them because of the detrimental effect it had on PvP. So to sit there and say - man it up - is just plain ignorant. They are now going back and introducing two things at once that in fact did have a very negative impact on PvP - as it will again.

 

Now, that being said, I do think they need to eliminate the "expertise" mechanic. But they should also consider only having, at most, two tiers of high end gear - not 5 in PvE as they do today (204/208/216/220/224).

 

Oh, and if we are going to go with the "if you don't grind it you lose attitude", we can also say good bye to ranked PvP. PvP is about skill, not who spends more time in their basement grinding gear.

 

Well I think you exaggerate things but today PvE has 3 tiers of endgame. 208 and 212 gear are not really seen as raid gear at all. It starts with 216 and so there are 3 tiers as there will be in 5.0 from the looks of it. Anything below that is leveling gear or solo gear, nothing more from a raider's point of view.

 

PvP is different because there is no leveling gear as such and bolster takes care of the rest. They did the same with sm ops as of level 50 and that actually muddied the waters between leveling and endgame gear but in the end you gain 216 gear in there even before you can equip it.

 

I also find it strange that people don't seem to see how powerful expertise is in PvP today. I'm rather convinced that the difference between someone with full expertise gear and pve gear is much bigger than what will be the difference with the tiered gear in 5.0

 

And you still don't have to play anything but pvp to get the gear. I think the combination of this and the lack of expertise will make it a lot less painful. I'm sure there will still be a difference, but then also that is a temporary situation.

[Andryah]

You're not taking into account the amount of alts people have. After the first month when people have geared themselves gearing an alt is probably going to be very painful.

 

There is no real merit in insisting on gearing all your alts with the very best gear. It's a craving, not a need, so their being work involved is just a practical barrier for something not actually needed. It will all be obsolete in 12 months, so why bother.

 

Yes... some players need a couple different alts to round out specialization across a range of content, but even that is somewhat alleviated by there not being different gear needed for different content. Beyond 2 or 3 alts.. this is just pretexting by the insistent.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Andryah

[Tsetso]

There is no real merit in insisting on gearing all your alts with the very best gear. It's a craving, not a need, so their being work involved is just a practical barrier for something not actually needed. It will all be obsolete in 12 months, so why bother.

 

Yes... some players need a couple different alts to round out specialization across a range of content, but even that is somewhat alleviated by there not being different gear needed for different content. Beyond 2 or 3 alts.. this is just pretexting by the insistent.

 

We're talking about pvp specifically. And some people love to play all their alts. And no, they won't be happy that if they play their alts they will have gear disadvantage.

[Shwarzchild]

There is no real merit in insisting on gearing all your alts with the very best gear. It's a craving, not a need, so their being work involved is just a practical barrier for something not actually needed. It will all be obsolete in 12 months, so why bother.

 

Yes... some players need a couple different alts to round out specialization across a range of content, but even that is somewhat alleviated by there not being different gear needed for different content. Beyond 2 or 3 alts.. this is just pretexting by the insistent.

 

I think you're right and wrong regarding gearing up alts. Right as in for the majority of the population it probably doesn't matter too much as many alts are probably used for conquest farming or story replay. I'd say for pvp it allws the player to more rapidly farm commendations to funnel over to their main pvp character. Raiding wise it's always been important to have flexibility in characters and roles played for primarily group composition as it relates to how best to get through a boss fight and progress on. I'd assume it's similar in ranked team pvp to have the ability to switch up group compositions as needed to beat other teams.

 

Regardless with progression anything seemingly dead now the need to invest into alts for end game activities is minimal. We will see how everything shakes out in 5.0 with alts but I'd agree that they aren't as important as they can be now. To be honest I think it's kind of a shame since each bring different experiences to the player especially at the end game level. To essentially tie a player into one character is meh in my opinion. But again we will see. If anything I'd say conquest minded players are going to adore this new system. If that's where the strength of the game has been at end game so be it.

[Wayshuba]

Well I think you exaggerate things but today PvE has 3 tiers of endgame. 208 and 212 gear are not really seen as raid gear at all. It starts with 216 and so there are 3 tiers as there will be in 5.0 from the looks of it. Anything below that is leveling gear or solo gear, nothing more from a raider's point of view.

 

PvP is different because there is no leveling gear as such and bolster takes care of the rest. They did the same with sm ops as of level 50 and that actually muddied the waters between leveling and endgame gear but in the end you gain 216 gear in there even before you can equip it.

 

I also find it strange that people don't seem to see how powerful expertise is in PvP today. I'm rather convinced that the difference between someone with full expertise gear and pve gear is much bigger than what will be the difference with the tiered gear in 5.0

 

And you still don't have to play anything but pvp to get the gear. I think the combination of this and the lack of expertise will make it a lot less painful. I'm sure there will still be a difference, but then also that is a temporary situation.

 

No exaggeration at all. If you think about it, there are really actually 8 sets of end game gear now (raider gear is one group of gear). You have crystal gear at 208 (basic), 216 (glowing) and 220 (radiant) without set bonus which is fine for the majority of solo PvE and FP runs, then you have 204 (basic) and 208 (advanced) PvP gear, then finally we have 216 (SM), 220 (HM) and 224 (NiM) gear. That is the end game sets we have today.

 

Now combining them, from what has been shown through non-official sources we will have 228 (which is where the augments cap out), 232, 236, 240, and 244. The 236 to 244 will most likely be set gear but we have no idea what will be the drops in the early stage of CxP.

 

So, no exaggeration. End game gear consists of a LOT more than just raid gear today.

[TX_Angel]

Well I suppose ranked popping slowly is something they are seeking to rememdy with this. I can equally tell you that the raiding community is a lot smaller as well than it used to be.

 

Ranked would be interesting if it wasn't just 4x4 arenas which are boring...

 

That is why I've never done one, I don't do 4x4...

[Wayshuba]

..snip... We will see how everything shakes out in 5.0 with alts but I'd agree that they aren't as important as they can be now. ...snip...

 

That's the thing, we don't need to see how it is going to shake out with v5.0. For those that have been here a long time, we know how well it went over with v1.x (which was like a lead balloon). We are going back to something we KNOW didn't work in this game twice (the gear RNG and PvP gear disparity in v1.x and the Battlemaster PvP boxes later). That is the point, they have failed miserably with this twice in this game and yet, they insist on forcing down player's throats again. I cannot understand the insanity of the decision.

[Toraak]

That's the thing, we don't need to see how it is going to shake out with v5.0. For those that have been here a long time, we know how well it went over with v1.x (which was like a lead balloon). We are going back to something we KNOW didn't work in this game twice (the gear RNG and PvP gear disparity in v1.x and the Battlemaster PvP boxes later). That is the point, they have failed miserably with this twice in this game and yet, they insist on forcing down player's throats again. I cannot understand the insanity of the decision.

 

There is a big difference tho comparing 5.0's gearing and 1.x. in 1.x it took a lot longer to get one of the battlemaster boxes then it will for a command crate. The Devs said roughly 1-1 1/2 hrs of in game play to get a crate, so you'll get far more chances then you did in the 1.x time.

[Wayshuba]

There is a big difference tho comparing 5.0's gearing and 1.x. in 1.x it took a lot longer to get one of the battlemaster boxes then it will for a command crate. The Devs said roughly 1-1 1/2 hrs of in game play to get a crate, so you'll get far more chances then you did in the 1.x time.

 

1.x wasn't about the time, it was fairly fast in v1.x. It was the completely RNG nature of obtaining gear that frustrated a lot of players. Same as the Battlemaster boxes.

 

I don't think anyone would be upset if BW somehow increased the grind for the gear, it is the completely random nature of the gear acquisition that has so many up in arms.

 

Just watch, if you thinks things are bad now with the complaints, just wait until after 5.0 drops. It will make whats happening now look like a walk in the park compared to what is coming.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Wayshuba

[robertthebard]

1.x wasn't about the time, it was fairly fast in v1.x. It was the completely RNG nature of obtaining gear that frustrated a lot of players. Same as the Battlemaster boxes.

 

I don't think anyone would be upset if BW somehow increased the grind for the gear, it is the completely random nature of the gear acquisition that has so many up in arms.

 

Let me see if I understand you here: People won't be upset about it taking longer to get gear, it's just that it may take them longer to get gear that has them upset.

 

That about sums it up, right? Because what's the issue with RNG? That they may get the same piece multiple times in a row, making it take longer to get geared up, right?

[Transcendent]

There is a big difference tho comparing 5.0's gearing and 1.x. in 1.x it took a lot longer to get one of the battlemaster boxes then it will for a command crate. The Devs said roughly 1-1 1/2 hrs of in game play to get a crate, so you'll get far more chances then you did in the 1.x time.

 

For the early levels of Command Rank, it'll take longer the higher the rank. 1-2 will be quick for sure, but 70-80 or 80-90 isn't going to be quick. In much the same fashion as level experience works I would guess, this is where they'll start selling CXP Boosters on the CM, just to add a little bit more salt to the wound.

[Wayshuba]

Let me see if I understand you here: People won't be upset about it taking longer to get gear, it's just that it may take them longer to get gear that has them upset.

 

That about sums it up, right? Because what's the issue with RNG? That they may get the same piece multiple times in a row, making it take longer to get geared up, right?

 

The issue with RNG, plain and simple, is you may never get the gear you want. Nothing is more frustrating to anyone than needing one last piece to make you set and everytime you get a new crate you get your 29th belt.

[Toraak]

For the early levels of Command Rank, it'll take longer the higher the rank. 1-2 will be quick for sure, but 70-80 or 80-90 isn't going to be quick. In much the same fashion as level experience works I would guess, this is where they'll start selling CXP Boosters on the CM, just to add a little bit more salt to the wound.

 

true, the higher ranks will take longer, but from the description the Devs gave us, we'll get them fairly quickly, so even if we get bad RNG, you'll still continue to get more chances at it quicker then you did during the 1.x time. Not to mention they did change it from AC to Discipline, which reduces the odds of us getting items we can't use (if it was from the opposite AC as you play).

[Quraswren]

For the early levels of Command Rank, it'll take longer the higher the rank. 1-2 will be quick for sure, but 70-80 or 80-90 isn't going to be quick. In much the same fashion as level experience works I would guess, this is where they'll start selling CXP Boosters on the CM, just to add a little bit more salt to the wound.

 

Which makes me wonder. When bw talked about it taking an hour or so per level to get a "chance" at gear you need. Were they talking about early levels or later levels?

 

Has to be later ones right?

[Ayakin_Solaris]

ILastly, they mentioned the goal is to make gearing simpler, because "it's too complicated". This is utter bull, there's pvp commendations for PvP gear, three tiers of pve commendations for PvE gear. And then tokens for BiS PvE gear. It's not complicated at all, so I don't know what they're getting at.

 

The casuals who form the bulk of the playerbase now that a large proportion of people who have been playing the game for a long period of time have left.

 

Changes that were made to simplify in the past made sense (e.g. Mastery replacing the class-specific stats, which were previously an unnecessary complication); they are just carrying on taking that to the next level by removing the player having to choose which gear is appropriate for their class/discipline.

[Ayakin_Solaris]

The issue with RNG, plain and simple, is you may never get the gear you want. Nothing is more frustrating to anyone than needing one last piece to make you set and everytime you get a new crate you get your 29th belt.

 

A 29th belt that you have to trash because the belt is tied to your Discipline and therefore is of no use to any of your alts . . . . . .

 

and then you realise that you could have spent 5 minutes doing a heroic in a full group and received a lot more credits than you got for trashing the belt . . .

 

yeah, totally not frustrating at all . . .

Edited October 25, 2016 by Ayakin_Solaris

[IanArgent]

Which makes me wonder. When bw talked about it taking an hour or so per level to get a "chance" at gear you need. Were they talking about early levels or later levels?

 

Has to be later ones right?

 

Half an hour per box at a "casual play" rate in the early part of the curve, to an hour or an hour and a half at the high end of the curve. They're being opaque as to what style of activity is "baseline" or "casual play" but have implied it's mostly solo/casual play; not grinding SM ops or spending all your time in a fighter or a warzone or a Flashpoint. They've also said the numbers are still in flux.

[belhawk]

i agree, this about making things easier for BW, not about making the game fun for the players. Maybe they are burned out on star wars, like they were with Shepherd in ME given the ME 3 ending basicly killed him off.

[Tsillah]

Ranked would be interesting if it wasn't just 4x4 arenas which are boring...

 

That is why I've never done one, I don't do 4x4...

 

I agree. The 4x4 maps have no objectives. It's a team death match set up and that's it. I don't find them particularly exciting. The upside is that when there's a significant difference between the teams at least it's over quickly. In this game I only pvp on lower levels. It's more fun to me. As all my toons are 65 that tells you how much pvp I do at the moment.

 

I've done a bit of unranked level 65 pvp and it's ok'ish but it really depends a lot on whether there are premades active at that time. The problem is that because ranked is slow, these players that should compete at that level may come to unranked and mess things up there. There just isn't much dimension to the pvp set up in SWTOR. Two queues, ranked and unranked. That's it.

 

When I remember the years I spent in GW1...it may not have been a full MMO but it had a lot more going for it whenit comes to PvP. For one, the solo and group queues were completely separated.

[Icykill_]

A 29th belt that you have to trash because the belt is tied to your Discipline and therefore is of no use to any of your alts . . . . . .

 

and then you realise that you could have spent 5 minutes doing a heroic in a full group and received a lot more credits than you got for trashing the belt . . .

 

yeah, totally not frustrating at all . . .

 

If they are going to force this change on us, then the gear needs to be legacy bound and stats ch age if you swap it to another class

[TX_Angel]

If they are going to force this change on us, then the gear needs to be legacy bound and stats ch age if you swap it to another class

 

That would be the ultimate "adaptive gear"

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

 

 

I think it's about being able to get BIS gear using nothing but basic attack while doing content that only cardiac arrest could cause a person to wipe on.