OMG Something nearly everyone agrees with

[Tsillah]

Personally I have my concerns about the RNG element of gear rewards in the system and the possible negative consequences that my flow from that. I am also concerned about the point that bosses won't drop gear anymore, because I fear that killing bosses will no longer feel rewarding. People will look for quick and easy things to do to gain points rather than the challenge. That is at least my expectation.

 

Aside from that though I am happy that they made a system that rewards multiple gameplay styles and removes expertise which is a pve stat in a pvp setting and only served to divide the community even further. It's a huge change and I am still reeling from it and coming to terms with it, but it is settling in little by little and I can see a lot of positives from it as well.

 

The concerns will have to be addressed but I actually am not so negative about the framework but just have some concerns about how it will affect group content because RNG might split players by gear because we are dependent on luck rather than working towards it as a group or guild. It doesn't mean though that my concerns or fears will come true, but they might. More information is needed but I am generally pretty happy with the overall approach but hope that the RNG gearing won't have the negative effects I fear.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Tsillah

[Icykill_]

Maybe the fundamental flaw is that the current playerbase believes it matters. Maybe the true aim of all these changes is to finally get rid of the ballast that are the "veteran players".

 

You mean the players who have kept the ship upright since launch?

[wainot-keel]

I did play this game at launch. I have also played many MMO over the last 17 years.

 

RNG is in fact at play in almost everything you do in an MMO.. from combat, to loot drops, to loot rolls, to crafting crits, to crew missions, etc. etc. etc. If you cannot stand RNG... best not to play MMOs.

 

Swtor is the only mmo I've ever played and we're discussing the gear changes on this game (not crafting or anything else). Also, I don't see how it's relevenat the way other games do it.

 

At launch, the game had strong RNG regarding the gearing process and progressively evolved into what we have now. So 5.0 truly feels like taking steps back in that regard. It's not just "change". It's going back to to something that clearly didn't work all that great.

[Tsetso]

I'd say the message most posters want to convey to the devs is : "Burn in hell". At least that's my take on the posts in the last 24 hours.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I'm not judging it until I see it live.

[Tsetso]

I'm not judging it until I see it live.

 

Or dead.

[IanArgent]

Ian is not among the 6 Ian will take a stand, but he's willing to listen to reason and engage in debate, not throw out excuses while he plugs his ears. Because of his willingness to listen, he's opened my mind on topics I was dead set on, and I hope I've opened his on topics he was dead set on. That's the beauty of disagreement...when we can break down the walls, people usually have commonalities that you can work with. We're all here because we like playing this game, so we've already got that in common...well, except the paid shills...but that's another topic

 

You've absolutely opened my mind on your concerns, and changed my mind a few times as well.

 

This is possibly the best compliment I've been paid on these boards

[TUXs]

I'd say the message most posters want to convey to the devs is : "Burn in hell". At least that's my take on the posts in the last 24 hours.

"Burn in hell RNG gearing"...just the idea of RNG gearing, not the Devs. The rest I'm open to...just NOT RNG gearing...

[Ndrag]

The RNG gear part needs to be refined, but 5.0 as a whole does not seem to be a massive failure.

 

hmmmmmm.... i should not have fast forwarded through the live stream recording....

 

Is this becoming the infamous rip-off archage cash shop box thriving crap all over again with GalCom?

 

Guess it´s time to cancel sub again.... damn it was so nice to return after 2012.

 

Edit: Btw. Bioware. I love DA and ME - but if you do stuff like this in SWTOR i won´t even bother buying a single player game from you anymore.

 

You should really do the Walking Dead Season 6 Finale on some EA CEO.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Ndrag

[Rolodome]

I suspect they moved forward release from a feature that was slated for 5.0

Definitely possible. Either way, they shifted resources to address the feedback/problems, proving it as an example of them making changes as a result of feedback.

 

So Andryah can talk about windmills all he wants. In the mean time, I'll flail my arms all I want because honestly... why not?

[BobTheTeepo]

The rest I'm open to...just NOT RNG gearing...

 

This right here is a shining example of exactly what I'm talking about. You're not even open to the possibility that you're wrong, and thus any evidence or reasoning that suggests you MAY (not are, MAY) be wrong is completely and totally ignored. Too many in this community have that attitude, and it's damaging to this game.

[Jadescythe]

This right here is a shining example of exactly what I'm talking about. You're not even open to the possibility that you're wrong, and thus any evidence or reasoning that suggests you MAY (not are, MAY) be wrong is completely and totally ignored. Too many in this community have that attitude, and it's damaging to this game.

 

No, it really isn't. We've all experienced RNG. You can make the drop rates and backup systems whatever you want and they all come back to the same point. We would have been better off if it was not decided by RNG in the first place. If you have to put so much in place to make RNG acceptable, why wouldn't you just give guaranteed rewards?

 

This isn't a new idea like the concept of giving away gear outside of Ops. We are open to that idea because it's new and we have no basis to dislike it. But you kep saying we have no evidence that the system will be bad, when we already know that ALL RNG systems for gearing are bad. And BW moved away from those systems at launch because the player base hated them, why would they go back?

[IanArgent]

Definitely possible. Either way, they shifted resources to address the feedback/problems, proving it as an example of them making changes as a result of feedback.

 

So Andryah can talk about windmills all he wants. In the mean time, I'll flail my arms all I want because honestly... why not?

 

More power to you. Just don't give yourself an ulcer in the process.

 

There's been enough examples of the studio changing things on short notice after outrage that I'd say it's worth trying.

[Savej]

I never thought I'd see the day when nearly the whole swtor population agreed on the same thing. If someone had asked me if this was possible, I would have told them they'd have better luck buying a lotto ticket.

 

It seem just about every thing I've read about the live stream and the posts by Bioware has caused the community to rage at them. Nobody seems to happy with any of these changes. Sure there might be one or two out there, but the overwhelming majority think the whole thing is a terrible idea.

 

Do they even listen to what the players want and demand... are any of the decision or ideas people even gamers... do they not even look back at their own game and see what failed in the past, only to implement it again 😕

Its like they all sit around a table and brain fart at each other and there is no faeces 💩 filter before it hits the board of ideas. There is so much extrament on that board that they can't recognise what is fibre and what is cancer.

 

Maybe they should use focus groups from the player base and not their own office or their families and friends.

 

There maybe one or two ok things coming in 5.0, but they are completely over shadowed by the amount extrament covering it.

 

After seeing such a big community reaction and rejection to this, I would put the expansion on hold, I'd take it out the back and use a firehouse on it to clean it up.. give it some Prozac, put it in some clean clothes and ask some friends to come over and see if it is presentable to go out in public

 

I don't mind the new system. i remember everyone had a kneejerk hate fest for DvL, too. The community here likes to hate BW a lot lately. These games need their griinds but BW is horrible at selling them ;>

[BobTheTeepo]

No, it really isn't. We've all experienced RNG. You can make the drop rates and backup systems whatever you want and they all come back to the same point. We would have been better off if it was not decided by RNG in the first place. If you have to put so much in place to make RNG acceptable, why wouldn't you just give guaranteed rewards?

 

This isn't a new idea like the concept of giving away gear outside of Ops. We are open to that idea because it's new and we have no basis to dislike it. But you kep saying we have no evidence that the system will be bad, when we already know that ALL RNG systems for gearing are bad. And BW moved away from those systems at launch because the player base hated them, why would they go back?[

 

Like I've said many times, even if we grant that it's a slight improvement for non-rng, that's not the point I'm addressing. The point I'm addressing is complaining so harshly about it, as Tux is doing in many threads. The RNG system could be made to be not a big issue whatsoever, and thus not worth that level of complaint or closed-mindedness.

 

That said, I'd like to address your (I believe incorrect) notions from two perspectives that I don't know if you've considered.

 

1) RNG and steady means of acquiring gear are not mutually exclusive. The outcry against RNG is futile and ill-conceived because the problem people really have is it being RNG exclusively. It's entirely possible Bioware could add something LIKE data crystals as a set amount per crate that you get that can be traded for specific pieces of gear... yet still have gear drop from the crates.

 

So the notion that the problem is with RNG is a demonstrably false one, the problem is with RNG being exclusive. Thus, outcry like Tux's against RNG, is literally complaining about the wrong thing.

 

2) There are benefits to having an RNG system (either exclusively or in a complimentary style) over a steady token or gold type of system.

 

A - Random loot drops with the chance at awesome stuff is often very satisfying. There's a reason why most MMOs these days sell things like SW:toR's packs: because gambling is fun. The vast majority of us like that rush, even if it burns us when our luck goes the other way.

 

B - Bioware can make the TTA (time to acquire) for the gear be theoretically shorter if it's RNG than otherwise. Since RNG can burn you heavily, Bioware would have to err on the side of caution, meaning with the RNG system you'd have excellent chances of obtaining your gear more quickly at the cost of you not being able to specify which piece of gear.

 

So let's say Bioware wants to have a full set gear be obtained, on average, in 10 hours. For simplicity's sake, let's just say that you need 10 pieces of gear making it 1 piece per hour on average for both systems.

 

Since an RNG gives you many shots at the individual piece of gear you want, this would mean you're going to get more pieces (some useful, some useless) per hour. To make that average out properly, that would mean the system would have to end up working such that you get more of your pieces earlier. This is because, say you have 9 pieces of gear, needing your 10th. The 10th will take longer on average than the previous 9 because where before you had 10 individual things you wanted, all having an equal chance of dropping, now you only have 1.

 

So to average out how it will take longer for you to get your final pieces of gear, they must make your earlier pieces of gear be quicker. This means people can get to a place of minimum effectiveness to do their content more quickly than otherwise.

 

Ultimately, my overall preference is for a hybrid system. I like some RNG for that gambling aspect, but I would like some tokens to assure that--if RNG doesn't go my way--I can get what I want. But that's not a complaint against the RNG, the RNG is not the villain, it's the exclusivity.

[IanArgent]

I don't mind the new system. i remember everyone had a kneejerk hate fest for DvL, too. The community here likes to hate BW a lot lately. These games need their griinds but BW is horrible at selling them ;>

 

I wasn't thrilled that DvL didn't have a way for older characters to participate. And I'm still annoyed that I opened my first pack allocation before the pack stash début. Que sera sera and I moved along.

[XiamaraSimi]

1)

2) If RNG is really a problem after release, they will make adjustments.. just like they always do.

 

 

Psssssst!

 

Ravavergate shows BW tends to drag their feet on fixing problems in a timely fashion...

[Rolodome]

More power to you. Just don't give yourself an ulcer in the process.

 

There's been enough examples of the studio changing things on short notice after outrage that I'd say it's worth trying.

Lol. Don't worry, I only do it if I feel it's worth it and I have the time to. In this case, I'm not even outraged... just pushing what changes that I think are good for the game.

[Soljin]

This right here is a shining example of exactly what I'm talking about. You're not even open to the possibility that you're wrong, and thus any evidence or reasoning that suggests you MAY (not are, MAY) be wrong is completely and totally ignored. Too many in this community have that attitude, and it's damaging to this game.

 

RNG can not be made better.... People are assuming you get gear in every box...that is a best case scenario. Chances are you will be swimming in companion gifts. If end game gear is armorings with set bonuses at max armor rating you can bet you will almost never see one in a crate. Based off my previous statement if they allow duplicates, getting even one duplicate will be a major rage fest for many players.

 

This will be worse than people are thinking not better. That said crafting may become more useful for gearing and that is a good thing and I cant get rid of expertise fast enough....

Edited October 18, 2016 by Soljin

[Andryah]

Psssssst!

 

Ravavergate shows BW tends to drag their feet on fixing problems in a timely fashion...

 

Pssst! Where did I suggest they would do so in a timely manner? All I said was they would make adjustments based on feedback+data.

 

Since it releases shortly before the holidays in December, we may very well see them let it run through January before making any adjustments.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Andryah

[Jadescythe]

1) RNG and steady means of acquiring gear are not mutually exclusive. The outcry against RNG is futile and ill-conceived because the problem people really have is it being RNG exclusively. It's entirely possible Bioware could add something LIKE data crystals as a set amount per crate that you get that can be traded for specific pieces of gear... yet still have gear drop from the crates.

 

2) There are benefits to having an RNG system (either exclusively or in a complimentary style) over a steady token or gold type of system.

 

A - Random loot drops with the chance at awesome stuff is often very satisfying. There's a reason why most MMOs these days sell things like SW:toR's packs: because gambling is fun. The vast majority of us like that rush, even if it burns us when our luck goes the other way.

 

B - Bioware can make the TTA (time to acquire) for the gear be theoretically shorter if it's RNG than otherwise. Since RNG can burn you heavily, Bioware would have to err on the side of caution, meaning with the RNG system you'd have excellent chances of obtaining your gear more quickly at the cost of you not being able to specify which piece of gear.

 

You are giving us a what-if scenario. What if BW kept the same system they had, but sometimes randomly gave you a full piece instead of just commendations. This is not the system they have put forward. Gear drops exclusively from command crates and crafting according to a post we have already seen. Cosmetic gear can be purchased from vendors for credits still. There are no commendations, the closest you get is dismantling for more command points to hopefully get lucky next time.

 

As for RNG packs, they sell well with a certain audience. The same audience who likes the lottery and slot machines. They are fun when they mean nothing, but are tedious and frustrating when they keep you from doing X activity. If players are being kept from raiding or joining ranked PvP or whatever activity simply because they haven't been lucky enough to get the good drops yet, the system is failing. People have been complaining about CM packs for awhile, so why introduce that feature to the actual gearing system?

[t-darko]

So we're getting a whole new game, - again. The only difference now is that we get it with a whole new assertiveness!! For all of you that got me pinned as a Star Wars Fanboy Swtor lover is all correct and I probably be here 'til they throw me out, on the the other hand I don't take my gaming that seriously, - anymore. I'm more curious if any, well, I hate to relearn everything, again(thats how it feels anyway).

 

But Lads, oh yes, and Gals(sorry Icy), put your finger in your mouth, stick it in the air, how does the wind blow?!, can you feel it, the new assertiveness from the Devs!? something has happened, dunno what, but there's something, is it the revenues? Is it the backup from Disney? 'Cos there is something. Getting rid of expertise is something I never thought we'd see, let alone a valor threshold into ranked, those are all initially player suggestions, if u been here long enough you know it!!

 

Or is this the last hand dealt and they're going All In!? 'Cos yet again, we're essentially getting a whole new game, yeah, yeah, I know, we're getting no real new content, the kind that matter some say, but however, that galactic command menu looks like a new deal entirely. Quality of life improvement you say, well, might be, just and only that, but can also be that there's coming a whole lot more on that menu, just saying. (hey drop that stone, I'm just brainstorming here, so take a chill pill;))

 

So I still love my Swtor game just not getting my daily dose anymore, more like a weekly, truth is I'm spending more time at the forums atm. Still got some venues I've not fully explored in the game even more after the xpac it would seem. I get the rage, the RGN, I just feel that that part of the forum has become so predictinglly boring, that it's tiresome, sure I'm impressed at some of you still going at it as it was yesterday 5 years ago. I just feel and think that it's time for something new, dunno what, but, you know, ah well, or u don't.

 

I'm following this with a more academic interest than before, think I'' have some fun ingame while doing it too . . .

Butt(pun intended) I'm tellin' ya, something has happened, we're entering a world with so much Star Wars in it and I suspect someone has gotten that wind under his wings over there in Austin.

 

Can you feel it, there's been an awakening . . . (sorry couldn't help me on that one . . . Cheers)

Edited October 18, 2016 by t-darko

[Kallie]

Nice try. I love the changes. It is causing all the whiners and crybabies to leave so we can have a nice community here where people get along instead of all the negative posts.

[Belegnole]

I was really happy with what I saw until I hit RNG gear. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Ok, now that I'm done with that. If they made it less than random it might work. From what I'm understanding, the Devs have taken the grind method to draw out playability buy using our egos if nothing else. Dangling the carrot in front of us whilst we ever so slowly get to taste it.

 

However event though I am not of the fast food generation I am only so patient. The system in use for PvP with commendations would be much better in my mind. First and foremost you would have a known obtainable goal. Second it would like the gear areas on fleet now, be a community gathering point.

[TUXs]

This right here is a shining example of exactly what I'm talking about. You're not even open to the possibility that you're wrong, and thus any evidence or reasoning that suggests you MAY (not are, MAY) be wrong is completely and totally ignored. Too many in this community have that attitude, and it's damaging to this game.

Wrong about how I feel about RNG gearing? I'm NOT wrong about my feelings on it. RNG gearing has NO PLACE in this game. It was tried, it failed. Unlike you, I've already experienced it here, in this game, with PvP armor...it was a nightmare.

 

You know what's damaging to this game? People too busy kissing up to acknowledge a devastating mistake when they see it. RNG gearing is that mistake...there's no question in my mind that it is a terrible idea that will harm this game.