OMG Something nearly everyone agrees with

[BobTheTeepo]

If it would only take a few hours, what is the benefit over guaranteed loot?

 

A lottery with a 99% chance of winning is still not better than a cash payment that is 100% guarantee. How is that reasoning fallacious?

 

I never said THAT reasoning is fallacious. Saying this is not the optimal way of doing things is not fallacious, I have my own concerns about the RNG. Saying that "oh hey, RNG gearing failed in the past, so it will fail now" actually falls in the category of a couple informal fallacies.

 

99% may not be optimal, but if it is 99% vs 100% it's certainly not something to be complaining about so intently, just mentioning as a possible area of improvement.

[Icykill_]

The funny thing is, the ONLY people I see defending it, are the same 6 people that defend ANYTHING!

 

I'm 1000% fine with dropping Expertise. I HATE carrying 2 sets of freaking gear all the time. But RNG has ALREADY FAILED IN THIS GAME! It has already proven to be a HORRIFIC idea. There is NOTHING good from RNG gear...NOTHING!

 

 

Isnt it always.. if you say black, they say white... if you try to be reasonable, they start with the personal attacks... it's always the same people... I had most on ignore.. but I nearly always missed out on half the thread because it was blocked out... when they get too annoying again, I'll just put them back on ignore

[BobTheTeepo]

Why is that? Why would RNG gear, in a gear based MMO, be better the second time it was implemented?

 

Higher likelihoods, for one. The ability to disintegrate so the item isn't worthless, for another. Turns out there's a few differences this time around.

 

The funny thing is, the ONLY people I see defending it, are the same 6 people that defend ANYTHING!

 

What's your point? Might want to google what Bulverism means before you go any further.

 

I'm 1000% fine with dropping Expertise. I HATE carrying 2 sets of freaking gear all the time. But RNG has ALREADY FAILED IN THIS GAME! It has already proven to be a HORRIFIC idea. There is NOTHING good from RNG gear...NOTHING!

 

Yet again, fallacy. Just because RNG in one instance did not work out does not mean it won't work out in the future. You have to deal with the specifics of WHY it did not work out, and show that those apply to this instance as well. It is EXACTLY like me saying "well my car flew off a cliff last time I took a drive, why would it be any different this time?" This is improper use of inductive reasoning, as I've already said.

Edited October 18, 2016 by BobTheTeepo

[Jadescythe]

I never said THAT reasoning is fallacious. Saying this is not the optimal way of doing things is not fallacious, I have my own concerns about the RNG. Saying that "oh hey, RNG gearing failed in the past, so it will fail now" actually falls in the category of a couple informal fallacies.

 

99% may not be optimal, but if it is 99% vs 100% it's certainly not something to be complaining about so intently, just mentioning as a possible area of improvement.

 

Your logic is flawed. The difference between 99% and 100% is huge as a player. If something is 99% guaranteed and fails, your frustration level is even higher than if it was a 1% chance. At least with a 1% chance you are expecting it to take 100 tries to succeed. RNG only servers to benefit some and hurt others, but the group that benefits won't see additional value from the system as they just expected it to happen anyway.

[BobTheTeepo]

Your logic is flawed. The difference between 99% and 100% is huge as a player. If something is 99% guaranteed and fails, your frustration level is even higher than if it was a 1% chance. At least with a 1% chance you are expecting it to take 100 tries to succeed. RNG only servers to benefit some and hurt others, but the group that benefits won't see additional value from the system as they just expected it to happen anyway.

 

99% vs 100% means, within the content of gearing, the chances of you ever actually failing to gear is minimal. Even if you do, you simply retry it once and it will work. Meaning, the failure wouldn't be so annoying because you know it will take very little time to rectify it.

 

Your frustration may be higher if it fails, but it's so unlikely to fail it's unlikely you'll be frustrated.

Edited October 18, 2016 by BobTheTeepo

[IanArgent]

Why is that? Why would RNG gear, in a gear based MMO, be better the second time it was implemented?

 

The funny thing is, the ONLY people I see defending it, are the same 6 people that defend ANYTHING!

 

I'm 1000% fine with dropping Expertise. I HATE carrying 2 sets of freaking gear all the time. But RNG has ALREADY FAILED IN THIS GAME! It has already proven to be a HORRIFIC idea. There is NOTHING good from RNG gear...NOTHING!

 

I hope you're not including me in that 6

 

The most I'm willing to go today is, it could be OK; if they do a couple of unexpected things. And this post didn't fill me with glee.

 

OTOH, they can fix a lot of the issues I'm hung up on by changing what amounts to drop rates and binding rules; not core systems. So I'm sitting on the fence throwing popcorn at both sides.

[TUXs]

Yet again, fallacy. Just because RNG in one instance did not work out does not mean it won't work out in the future. You have to deal with the specifics of WHY it did not work out, and show that those apply to this instance as well.

It didn't work out before because of RNG. That's EXACTLY, and specifically, why it didn't work out. No guess work. No treasure hunt. We know precisely why it failed...because RNGing gear in a GEAR based game, is foolish!!!!

[Rion_Starkiller]

 

The funny thing is, the ONLY people I see defending it, are the same 6 people that defend ANYTHING!

Isnt it always.. if you say black, they say white... if you try to be reasonable, they start with the personal attacks... it's always the same people... I had most on ignore.. but I nearly always missed out on half the thread because it was blocked out... when they get too annoying again, I'll just put them back on ignore

 

Ahahahaha. Shall I name the 6 or so forum posters? Or is it already too obvious?

 

I hope you're not including me in that 6

 

What do you think?

 

 

"The crowd is going this way! So I'll go that way!"

Edited October 18, 2016 by Rion_Starkiller

[BobTheTeepo]

It didn't work out before because of RNG.

 

Evidence for your assertion, please. I remember the problem being that, when you failed, it was so brutal because of how much time it took to try the RNG again and how long the gearing took in general (I was an at launch PvPer, just so you're aware, been here since alpha testing).

 

That's EXACTLY, and specifically, why it didn't work out. No guess work. No treasure hunt. We know precisely why it failed...because RNGing gear in a GEAR based game, is foolish!!!!

 

Adding more exclamation points doesn't make you more correct. It just means you need to learn to chill.

[KyaniteD]

Maybe the fundamental flaw is that the current playerbase believes it matters. Maybe the true aim of all these changes is to finally get rid of the ballast that are the "veteran players".

[TUXs]

I hope you're not including me in that 6

Never While we may disagree, I can always have a reasonable conversation/discussion with you...and I truly appreciate that Ian. THANK YOU for seeing our disagreements for what they are...philosophical differences on game mechanics/decisions, not personal attacks

 

The most I'm willing to go today is, it could be OK; if they do a couple of unexpected things. And this post didn't fill me with glee.

 

OTOH, they can fix a lot of the issues I'm hung up on by changing what amounts to drop rates and binding rules; not core systems. So I'm sitting on the fence throwing popcorn at both sides.

UGH! I didn't see that until now...thanks for the link

[Jadescythe]

99% vs 100% means, within the content of gearing, the chances of you ever actually failing to gear is minimal. Even if you do, you simply retry it once and it will work. Meaning, the failure wouldn't be so annoying because you know it will take very little time to rectify it.

 

Your frustration may be higher if it fails, but it's so unlikely to fail it's unlikely you'll be frustrated.

 

Which is in direct competition with your previous statement that they are the same. If a 99% chance means that 1% of the time someone is upset, while 99% of the team people are happy, wouldn't logic tell you to make everything a 100% chance?

 

My issues with the old BM loot system were based around getting nothing when you received a piece that you already had. It didn't matter how often it happened, it only mattered that it happened. The more it happened the worse it was, but I wasn't at all happy the first time a got a repeat piece (my second box btw). Even knowing that I can break down that piece to get closer to the next one, I don't feel any better about the new system.

[Transcendent]

You guys have no idea how unforgiving the RNG will be, maybe realistically it'll only take a few hours of grind to get all of your gear. You don't know..

 

We do know a little bit more than "a few hours of grind". For some types of content it'll take longer than others, that has been confirmed by BioWare themselves. Until we know specifics on GC rank points required per level, and GC rank points rewarded per type of content to gain GC crates, and each crate will not give us a full set.... are you getting the idea now?

 

It'll probably be some form of extension of the levelling systems already in place for experience / legacy / valor. So yet another grind on top of a grind on top of a grind for Ranked PvP orientated players (which isn't great.....), however for other players? Grind on top of a grind.

 

From what I'm seeing here from what we've been told, it's the Ranked PvP players who are going to be at a huge disadvantage at the start of 5.0, well, that and normal PvP players going up against all the HM Priority Ops players from 4.0 in just normal PvP. Unless it's clarified, that's one part of the community who is seriously going to suffer the removal of expertise from the game just to bring all the gear into one fold.

 

So recap.

 

-Ranked PvP player? 3 Grinds, already at a disadvantage due to removal of expertise. Check.

-Raider? Max level gear already? 2 Grinds, already at an advantage in any of the content. Check.

-Normal casual player? Middle range gear, some set bonus perhaps all of it. 2 Grinds, already at an advantage vs PvP players due to removal of expertise, not vs Raiders. Check.

 

Add to this that a new ranked season goes live with 5.0? Add to this that it'll take longer to get a full set of gear and your ranking will suffer while doing so?

 

How is this a good change exactly? Unless BioWare address those concerns, I can't see how the first few months of playing 5.0 is going to be nice for PvP players even remotely. I don't see why any particular subset of the community should suffer, can you?

 

We've had RNG gearing before. Although this may not be as bad, it is still in itself RNG gearing, instead of simple straight forward good game design progression gearing. Why remove a good aspect of the game? For Galactic Command? ....... ????!"!!?!!!!

[BobTheTeepo]

Which is in direct competition with your previous statement that they are the same. If a 99% chance means that 1% of the time someone is upset, while 99% of the team people are happy, wouldn't logic tell you to make everything a 100% chance?

 

I already said that I have issues with an RNG system. 100% is better in my eyes, yes. I would personally prefer a non RNG system.

 

That does not mean the world is ending. That does not mean the RNG system is horrible. We still don't know how it will all play out and many people on here on wildly jumping to conclusions. That's what I'm saying, voice your concerns in a reasonable manner but don't overstate what you don't know lol (not directed at you specifically, just generally).

 

My issues with the old BM loot system were based around getting nothing when you received a piece that you already had. It didn't matter how often it happened, it only mattered that it happened. The more it happened the worse it was, but I wasn't at all happy the first time a got a repeat piece (my second box btw). Even knowing that I can break down that piece to get closer to the next one, I don't feel any better about the new system.

 

Fair enough. As I've said, I've got my own concerns. As long as we don't all jump to conclusions and pretend the world is ending because of it, I'll have no issue with what most of you are saying.

[gabigool]

It won't make any difference though.. so my suggestion is to relax and let it play out. [/color]

 

Well, you can happily sit and not mind. That's your right.

 

Personally, I think the rage needs to continue as I believe it will effect change.

[BobTheTeepo]

We do know a little bit more than "a few hours of grind". For some types of content it'll take longer than others, that has been confirmed by BioWare themselves. Until we know specifics on GC rank points required per level, and GC rank points rewarded per type of content to gain GC crates, and each crate will not give us a full set.... are you getting the idea now?

 

I'm getting the idea that we still have no idea how long it will take. Longer doesn't imply how much longer. You still don't know. That's my point. Skepticism, open-mindedness. Wait til we have enough information.

 

It'll probably be some form of extension of the levelling systems already in place for experience / legacy / valor. So yet another grind on top of a grind on top of a grind for Ranked PvP orientated players (which isn't great.....), however for other players? Grind on top of a grind.

 

From what I'm seeing here from what we've been told, it's the Ranked PvP players who are going to be at a huge disadvantage at the start of 5.0, well, that and normal PvP players going up against all the HM Priority Ops players from 4.0 in just normal PvP. Unless it's clarified, that's one part of the community who is seriously going to suffer the removal of expertise from the game just to bring all the gear into one fold.

 

Initially it will be a bit rough, yeah, Bioware should look at some way to transition pvp players properly I think. Not really to do with what I was discussing though.

 

So recap.

 

-Ranked PvP player? 3 Grinds, already at a disadvantage due to removal of expertise. Check.

-Raider? Max level gear already? 2 Grinds, already at an advantage in any of the content. Check.

-Normal casual player? Middle range gear, some set bonus perhaps all of it. 2 Grinds, already at an advantage vs PvP players due to removal of expertise, not vs Raiders. Check.

 

Add to this that a new ranked season goes live with 5.0? Add to this that it'll take longer to get a full set of gear and your ranking will suffer while doing so?

 

How is this a good change exactly? Unless BioWare address those concerns, I can't see how the first few months of playing 5.0 is going to be nice for PvP players even remotely. I don't see why any particular subset of the community should suffer, can you?

 

We've had RNG gearing before. Although this may not be as bad, it is still in itself RNG gearing, instead of simple straight forward good game design progression gearing. Why remove a good aspect of the game? For Galactic Command? ....... ????!"!!?!!!!

 

I don't like RNG gearing myself, you're preaching to the choir. I don't hate it mind you. I won't be bothered by it like most people I suppose, and I'm overall very positive about the swap to GC, but I agree with you here.

Edited October 18, 2016 by BobTheTeepo

[TUXs]

Personally, I think the rage needs to continue as I believe it will effect change.

I agree. They DO read our feedback...they don't/can't always change the things we'd like, but I do believe the feedback helps.

 

Oh yeah...RNG SUCKS!

[JargoFett]

Yea, I agree with most people in that I really feel like PvP'ers got the shaft with this update but I guess I can see why since such a small percentage of the actual playerbase is pure PvP since most I believe are in it for conquest and the companion quest..

 

Oh well, I like the idea behind GC but I'm not so much a fan of these RNG boxes especially as I mentioned in a previous post about the potential of getting DPS or tank gear on my healer... or DPS/healing gear on my tank. I don't think that'll be fun especially considering that wastes an entire level of GC and I can't transfer said pieces to other toons since as Bioware said already... it'll be all BoP instead of BoL or BoE.

 

Oh well, at least crafting will be making a come back to relevance.

[gabigool]

I agree. They DO read our feedback...they don't/can't always change the things we'd like, but I do believe the feedback helps.

 

Oh yeah...RNG SUCKS!

 

I honestly think this is going to change. Maybe not to a pure non-RNG setup but something is going to give WRT how we gear for endgame. In the spirit of this thread, aside from the people we knew would like it before it was even discussed, this is probably the biggest consensus I've seen. By a wide margin.

[Transcendent]

I don't like RNG gearing myself, you're preaching to the choir. I don't hate it mind you. I won't be bothered by it like most people I suppose, and I'm overall very positive about the swap to GC, but I agree with you here.

 

I don't mind well implemented RNG systems, and those are far and few between. Ones that are also tied into gaining ranks? That doesn't feel well implemented.

 

I'm also slightly concerned that f2p / pref players are excluded from the whole GC thing. Does this also include players who unsubscribe after 5.0 and become pref? Can they still use Artifact Quality Gear with the appropriate unlock, but no longer obtain said gear?

 

Too many unanswered questions. I'd love to be nicely surprised though.

[Jadescythe]

Yea, I agree with most people in that I really feel like PvP'ers got the shaft with this update but I guess I can see why since such a small percentage of the actual playerbase is pure PvP since most I believe are in it for conquest and the companion quest..

 

Oh well, I like the idea behind GC but I'm not so much a fan of these RNG boxes especially as I mentioned in a previous post about the potential of getting DPS or tank gear on my healer... or DPS/healing gear on my tank. I don't think that'll be fun especially considering that wastes an entire level of GC and I can't transfer said pieces to other toons since as Bioware said already... it'll be all BoP instead of BoL or BoE.

 

Oh well, at least crafting will be making a come back to relevance.

 

Just a note, the drops are advanced class specific. If your toon can't heal, then you would only see DPS/tank gear.

[IanArgent]

Ahahahaha. Shall I name the 6 or so forum posters? Or is it already too obvious?

 

 

 

What do you think?

 

 

"The crowd is going this way! So I'll go that way!"

 

I asked TUXs for a reason; I respect his opinion and want to make sure I'm not giving an impression that I'm defending the proposed loot system; instead of suggesting ways they can rescue it from disaster with what can be done in the timeframe remaining.

 

Ideally, I would have liked to have seen currency drop from completing GC missions, and a vendor selling various grades of gear mods and empty shells; with, if they insisted on gating via GC Level, a GC Level requirement.

 

And that GC level be a lot faster to achieve than it appears to be.

[FlavivsAetivs]

Well, you can happily sit and not mind. That's your right.

 

Personally, I think the rage needs to continue as I believe it will effect change.

 

************ and moaning is what America has done for the past 240 years, and if it worked then it will work now.

 

But if that doesn't work then we throw tea into the ocean and declare open war.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited October 18, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[IanArgent]

Well, you can happily sit and not mind. That's your right.

 

Personally, I think the rage needs to continue as I believe it will effect change.

 

Directed and constructive rage. Which you've been very good at. Keep it up

[TUXs]

Ahahahaha. Shall I name the 6 or so forum posters? Or is it already too obvious?

 

What do you think?

 

"The crowd is going this way! So I'll go that way!"

Ian is not among the 6 Ian will take a stand, but he's willing to listen to reason and engage in debate, not throw out excuses while he plugs his ears. Because of his willingness to listen, he's opened my mind on topics I was dead set on, and I hope I've opened his on topics he was dead set on. That's the beauty of disagreement...when we can break down the walls, people usually have commonalities that you can work with. We're all here because we like playing this game, so we've already got that in common...well, except the paid shills...but that's another topic