Why Macros belong in TOR.

[venjinze]

I think macro's take away from a game, the lack of macro's puts people on an even playing field so to speak. I've never used macro's until Rift and suddenly I literally had 2 buttons in PvP (if you played a champion in RIFT you'd know what I was referring to) completely factoring out skill. Who ever mashed their macro button faster yielded the winner.

 

I've acclimated to having to bind every skill to a key, which is much preferrable in my opinion, and yes thats all it is, an opinion. Of course mouse-over-heals I completely agree with, its frantic enough as a healer in PvE or PvP, those types of macros I can get behind, but not the type of macro's that you can map all your abilities to and press 1 key to execute.

 

PvP is better without them.

 

P.S. don't modern gaming keyboards support the functionality to create your own macros?

Edited December 28, 2011 by venjinze

[Akash]

If you're 2-button mashing a champ in Rift you aren't winning. Not anymore, anyway. This was addressed by putting reactives on their own shared cooldown. Edited December 28, 2011 by Akash

[NightHawke]

Ok, it is.. I cannot count LOL! T

 

I never said I had the TOR keyboard. I have the Stealth Ultimate Keyboard. Huge difference in price.

 

http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.235197900/parentCategoryID.35156900/categoryId.52828900

Edited December 28, 2011 by NightHawke

[klathnagma]

Ok, it is.. I cannot count LOL! T

 

I never said I had the TOR keyboard. I have the Stealth Ultimate Keyboard. Huge difference in price.

 

http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.235197900/parentCategoryID.35156900/categoryId.52828900

Ahhh sorry my bad.

[internets]

I think macro's take away from a game, the lack of macro's puts people on an even playing field so to speak. I've never used macro's until Rift and suddenly I literally had 2 buttons in PvP (if you played a champion in RIFT you'd know what I was referring to) completely factoring out skill. Who ever mashed their macro button faster yielded the winner.

 

I've acclimated to having to bind every skill to a key, which is much preferrable in my opinion, and yes thats all it is, an opinion. Of course mouse-over-heals I completely agree with, its frantic enough as a healer in PvE or PvP, those types of macros I can get behind, but not the type of macro's that you can map all your abilities to and press 1 key to execute.

 

PvP is better without them.

 

P.S. don't modern gaming keyboards support the functionality to create your own macros?

 

I don't have experience with Rift, but this "all stuff on one button" macro sounds like /castsequence from wow. I raided as a hunter in the T4 content and had my mousewheel doing my whole rotation, and it was awesome to consistently top the meters by taking the rotation out of the equation, allowing me to concentrate on staying out of the fire, micromanaging the pet, and cooldowns.

 

In my mind, I was exploiting something that was broken, and I think everyone here agrees that /castsequence absolutely does not belong in TOR. Furthermore, this thread is not about /castsequence style macros.

 

It's about target=mouseover and target=focus style macros.

[NightHawke]

Got my figures from here and yeah it's dollars not euro,so my bad, 400$ not 400€.

 

http://www.razerzone.com/swtor/mouse

http://www.razerzone.com/swtor/keyboard

 

 

 

Never get a wireless gaming mouse mate. The wireless delay use to kill them really.

 

But both the epic and the swtor mouse are 17 buttons.

 

 

The issue is most of us just want macros to sort our - clunky - user interface to something more bearable.

 

You with your 17 buttons mouse will have things much easier than the average player will ever have. You say it's like to punch in your keypad, but those 12 keypad buttons are at your thumb, and you have the other hand free for pushing whatever keybind you see fit.

 

So to say that we because we are asking for macros to sort our user interface - to be able to play without stretching our hands badly - are bads because we want things easier, and at the same time, you play with hardware that makes the limitations we want to fix moot, it seems a double standard for me.

 

We bads because we want easy, you are not even while you have it even easier than I would have with macros.

 

Don't take it personal, because it don't goes that way please.

 

It's just I think most people here is not getting what in-game macros are for really.

 

In-game macros will give us less benefits than your gaming set up. Don't think why you call us bad players to ask for advantages you already are enjoying.

 

Sorry I have buttons on my mouse. You can put 3 hotkey abilities on your 5 button mouse if you so chose. Does not mean I hit a button (though I suppose I could) and have 20 commands pop out over the course of 20 seconds. I don't do it, because it would take away from my gameplay experience.

 

I would think it hilarious if someone relied on macros, a patch happened in game and all macros on keyboards/mice/applications were broke for about a week. How much PvP you think would happen?

 

Zero with the macroers. Because they just would not know how to fight. Everything is automated.

[internets]

Since this thread is about target=mouseover and target=focus style macros:

 

If the devs decide they want the functionality those two macros provide, i think it would be cool to see some other implementation than macros.

 

An idea that I could provide would be when the ops frame is visible and unlocked, have additional quickslots on the side that would be enabled by a left click, right click, shift click, etc. on the target that is being clicked inside the ops frame. or better yet, additional blank slots and you decide what to bind them to. Then, the player drags the skills/abilities into those quickslots and locks the ops frame (which hides the border and those addl quickslots). Even while hidden, those quickslots are active for the actions performed on the targets in the ops frame. This is a way that advanced users can gain additional performance from the UI.

 

Functionality, not macros.

Edited December 28, 2011 by internets

[Bainshie]

Errr.... we already have focus macros....

 

Just look in the settings. You can enable focus targets. Then go to keybindings and set the focus modifier to something you can actualy reach (Whoever thought the end key was actually useable....). All you need to do is press that button + your usual spell button and it casts the spell at your focus target

 

Also there's a self cast modifier.

 

Switching between stances I just use the default quick slots: quick slot 1 is for DPS, quick slot 2 is for healing, quick slot 3 is for AOE, and quick slot 4 is for the 1 in a million times I use take cover. Then I just bind switching quickslots to ctrl + 1, ctrl + 2 respectively.

[NightHawke]

Tsk tsk, changed your OP again...

[NightHawke]

 

Switching between stances I just use the default quick slots: quick slot 1 is for DPS, quick slot 2 is for healing, quick slot 3 is for AOE, and quick slot 4 is for the 1 in a million times I use take cover. Then I just bind switching quickslots to ctrl + 1, ctrl + 2 respectively.

 

F button works for that too.

[internets]

Errr.... we already have focus macros....

 

Just look in the settings. You can enable focus targets. Then go to keybindings and set the focus modifier to something you can actualy reach (Whoever thought the end key was actually useable....). All you need to do is press that button + your usual spell button and it casts the spell at your focus target

 

Also there's a self cast modifier.

 

Switching between stances I just use the default quick slots: quick slot 1 is for DPS, quick slot 2 is for healing, quick slot 3 is for AOE, and quick slot 4 is for the 1 in a million times I use take cover. Then I just bind switching quickslots to ctrl + 1, ctrl + 2 respectively.

 

 

 

I posed this question to the OP in #2 of my post on Page 45 (these things are tough to keep track of, is there a way to link to a post number?). He was asking for target=focus macros, and I'm wondering how that would be different from what we already have. I think it would just be one button vs. a button combo.

 

I like combos and use alt for my focus modifier.

[Bainshie]

F button works for that too.

 

Yea I use f for my escape.

 

Basically 1-4 = whatever rotation for whatever stance I'm in.

5 = basic attack

6 = Flashbang

V = kick

8 = tranc , probably should change that to 7 for easier killing

G = stealth/clear head, depending on the stance.

F = escape.

Z = Heal. Even if I'm in DPS mode a heal or two never hurts.

ctrl + Q = Add to focus

Q + something: cast on focus

 

Ofc I'll probably have to redo it all again when I level some more (level 22 Scoundrel)

[Bainshie]

I posed this question to the OP in #2 of my post on Page 45 (these things are tough to keep track of, is there a way to link to a post number?). He was asking for target=focus macros, and I'm wondering how that would be different from what we already have. I think it would just be one button vs. a button combo.

 

I like combos and use alt for my focus modifier.

 

Surely that's how macros work (Ignoring the IWIN I play for you macros). I don't really have enough buttons on my keyboard (that are reachable) to make every ability I may need to cast on a focus target a separate button. Having a button combo is the best option (outside of the aforementioned macros.)

[klathnagma]

Sorry I have buttons on my mouse. You can put 3 hotkey abilities on your 5 button mouse if you so chose. Does not mean I hit a button (though I suppose I could) and have 20 commands pop out over the course of 20 seconds. I don't do it, because it would take away from my gameplay experience.

 

I would think it hilarious if someone relied on macros, a patch happened in game and all macros on keyboards/mice/applications were broke for about a week. How much PvP you think would happen?

Here is where you are completely confused. None is asking for a macro where you hit a key and 20 commands pop out over the course of 20 seconds.

 

As for the breaking on patch part, I have already seen it and you have to sort things around. Not a week, but 10 mins most likely.

 

Zero with the macroers. Because they just would not know how to fight. Everything is automated.

Strawman.

[Zarthorn]

Surely that's how macros work (Ignoring the IWIN I play for you macros). I don't really have enough buttons on my keyboard (that are reachable) to make every ability I may need to cast on a focus target a separate button. Having a button combo is the best option (outside of the aforementioned macros.)

 

Keyboard dexterity is your friend, we had no choice but to have it in games like AO, I'm glad to see Bioware encouraging it.

 

And with a mouse and gamer keyboard, you can easily bind your keys in easy to reach places.

 

And again, I'm against macros as it's effectively letting the computer do the work for you, we are already atropied enough as a race with technology as it is, at least keep some kind of movement going here folks so we dont end up looking like blobs with an extremely muscular index finger!

[venjinze]

If you're 2-button mashing a champ in Rift you aren't winning. Not anymore, anyway. This was addressed by putting reactives on their own shared cooldown.

 

Maybe long after I had left, but during the time I played the most common questions to the top PvP / PvE players was "what macro(singular) do you use?"

 

Rift is an extreme example but my point still stands, macro's like these are, in my eyes, an exploit.

 

I pretty much setup my keyboard w/ my main skills 1-6, alt & shift 1-6 for alternate skills. Q, E, F & X for cooldown's usually.

 

I've played a healer and understand the importance and utility the mouse-over can provide. WoW had this coupled w/ Grid which made healing near trivial.

Edited December 28, 2011 by venjinze

[Yetiquette]

Just skimmed over and didn't read any responses but they did say "Macros won't be available at launch". that still means they plan to introduce at some point or another, and i'm certain they are. What's the point of this thread? :3 To complain that they didn't have Macros available at launch for your convience during low level PvP? =/

[SWImara]

*sigh*

 

Yes, it is. Everquest. More hardcore content that WoW has right now, or ever will have. For the vast majority of its life, there were no meters of any kind, and yet-

 

Why do I bother? Some people simply cannot be convinced there was life before WoW.

Just wanted to quote the above as I think it is precisely the reason the WoW crowd is so deeply loathed in MMOs. Many games took competition, difficulty and player skill much more seriously than WoW ever did (particularly in PvP) yet since this is the one everyone played they wear it like some short-bus medal of honor. Seriously... no one cares about your e-sports rank, you might be really good at PvP or any other aspect of the game but tossing this around isn't going to prove it to people. As far as PvE content most of WoW's content throughout its existence was formulaic, simple and easy to digest, earlier (and later) games actually catered to the mythical "hardcore MMOer" but they're rarely recognized for their contributions.

 

Back on the OP's topic, I have no problem with macros so long as they're limited to things like rollover and focus. I am actually almost certain that there is already this functionality in game (I don't bother) but maybe they are not functioning properly at the moment.

 

More in depth, sequenced type macros I'd hate to see.

 

As an addendum I sincerely hope anyone who is contributing to this game's design ignores any and every post that even suggests at ragequitting if one doesn't get their way. Seriously if some feature is so necessary that it is ruining your life through not existing, please either get over it or leave... preferably without a "I'm ragequitting post"

[Sake]

Immediately upon logging into the game initially during early access, I set my keybinds, and then typed "/m" into the chatbox, intending to get a feel for macro function within the game. I was surprised, as were many of my friends, guild mates and others that I've spoken to, when nothing was forthcoming. I went straight to google, and my query was "SWTOR macro support?". My jaw literally dropped as, on the first link I followed, I read that there would be no macro support at launch.

 

The lack of macro support in tandem with focus functionality initially inhibited me, and many others I've spoken with, from playing as effectively as we feel that we are capable of, and by extension, decreased the amount of enjoyment we were able to derive from PvPing in this game.

 

Here's why: No one can deny, a large portion of SWTOR players are going to be coming either directly from WoW, or will at least be players with prior experience with that particularly behemoth. If you ask any competitive PvP player in WoW, focus and macro functionality are absolutely vital to maximize efficiency. In addition, many healers will find their ability to effectively heal a large group impacted by a lack of mouse-over macros, another staple of the competitive WoW PvP and PvE communities.

 

Before you point out "this is not WoW", we're all aware it isn't, obviously. But not supporting features that detract nothing from the game and would be welcomed (and the absence of which is already negatively affecting the experience of many people I know personally within the game) is silly.

 

Many aspects of this game and the systems within it are derived indirectly from other MMOs, WoW included and probably the most prevalent due to it's size and popularity. Macros and focus are a staple within WoW particularly at end-game and proliferate even more at higher levels of competition, both within the PvP and PvE communities. I'm positive that competitive PvE and PvP scenes are something that Bioware wants to cultivate and foster within TOR - the development of these scenes would benefit the game hugely. It is within the best interests of the games success and the developers to attract as many players as possible and to facilitate truly competitive gameplay. I believe that Macro and Focus support are vital to the realization of this eventuality, and that is the bottom line imo.

 

There is nothing about macro and focus use that suggests "skill-less". Ask yourself, what is easier to manage? A single target, or multiple targets, each of which could be casting spells or performing abilities that you need to maintain awareness of at all times? The only people who dislike macros in this context either were unable to use them properly, or were unwilling to even try using them initially.

 

Bottom line, macros, particularly in a PvP scenario and particularly in concert with focus, should be supported and available to those who wish to utilize them.

 

Finally, please, please discuss this. Opinions from every perspective are valid, and I know there are players who both vehemently support and oppose the advent of macros within TOR.

 

If you agree that macros do belong in the game, why?

 

If you believe the implementation of macros would harm the game, why?

 

EDIT FOR BREVITY!

 

Here's a condensed version/TL;DR for everyone unwilling to devote the time to read everything said above:

 

-The lack of Macro and Focus functionality/support within the game inhibits the play experience. Particularly for those coming from other games (WoW being the most prevalent) that are used to the increased effectiveness macro use facilitates.

 

-Macros and Focus are vital elements in a truly competitive PvP/PvE scene, the development of which can ONLY benefit the Game as a whole.

 

-Not supporting features that detract nothing from the game and would be welcomed (and the absence of which is already negatively affecting the experience of many people I know personally within the game) is silly.

 

-Macro use, particularly in tandem with focus, is not "skill-less" but the converse. It adds complexity to the game.

 

-Discuss!

 

IMPORTANT: I am NOT necessarily asking for support for completely customizable macros, but support for what I believe are two functions VITAL to competitive and satisfying gameplay:

 

-Focus Macro Support

and

-Mouseover Macro support

 

MACROS ARE NOT ADDONS. Here's the disparity, and it's a fundamental one. Addons are pieces of coding written by 3rd parties which alter the User interface, primarily. Macros are lines of text written WITHIN THE GAME, that do not alter the UI, change any frames, or give you information you wouldn't otherwise have access to. What I am asking for is NOT an IWIN single button spam for multiple abilities.

 

 

"Macros are a pretty broad term for certain convenience and advanced user functions at this time. Some of those features are present as possible key binds in the game, others are not.

We’re not opposed to macros, we don’t hate them, in fact we will probably add them, but probably not for launch."

 

-Georg Zoeller

 

WHAT I AM ACTUALLY ASKING FOR SUPPORT FOR:

 

Focus macro functionality to use with the focus frames that are already within the game. Such a macro would look like this:

 

/cast [target=focus] "abilityname"

 

Here's a mouseover macro -

 

/cast [target=mouseover] "abilityname"

 

Devilishly complicated, right?

 

TLDR Give me an advantage over players that do not know how to do macros

[souloferdrick]

If the devs are polling this, I am opposed to macros as well.

[Mastermiked]

The people saying "macro uses are lazy blbalbla" obviously havent pvped or pve'ed on any sort of competative level.

 

There are VERY VERY few unskilled players seeking out macro's. But regardless. It shouldent matter if its the lazy gamer wanting an easier way to heal or and pro gaming looking to get the edge. Macro's SHOULD be supported and they would be wise to implement. Or risk see this game fall off the radar when it comes to the competative scene. (which by the way is a huge scene in WOW and part of their sustained success).

[venjinze]

The people saying "macro uses are lazy blbalbla" obviously havent pvped or pve'ed on any sort of competative level.

 

There are VERY VERY few unskilled players seeking out macro's. But regardless. It shouldent matter if its the lazy gamer wanting an easier way to heal or and pro gaming looking to get the edge. Macro's SHOULD be supported and they would be wise to implement. Or risk see this game fall off the radar when it comes to the competative scene. (which by the way is a huge scene in WOW and part of their sustained success).

 

That's purely speculation, and a fallacy. You do not need macro's to be competitive in a game.

[Quesa]

There is so much wild speculation and misinformation in this thread that neither side is putting up a good argument for anything right now.

[Sake]

Everyone has a flintlock gun right now. Some folks come from games where if you know the code, you can modify your flintlock into a automatic. It is absolutely infuriating to hardcore pvper's that they can be killed by keyboard turning clickers lmao

[Fredcat]

No matter how anyone try's to justify it, the ONLY reason they want macros is to make the game easier. There's just no denying it's easier to push one button then to do a chain of things. They can push that one button and get a perfect chain every time. God forbid these lazy macro raised Wow players actually have to manually change targets and hit a hotkey to use a skill.

 

The lack of macros will separate good players from the bad ones as only a bad player requires a macro to do their job. I personally saw how macros ruined SWG, I do NOT want to see it happen again.