Extortion of returning players

[peter_plankskull]

Someone could also douse themselves in gasoline and light a match to get attention. They likely aren't going to get the right kind of attention or help they're seeking. With the vitriol the gang spreads on this forum, the devs likely skip right past absurd titles like this one.

 

Just because people have a different opinion doesn't automatically mean they are toxic. It's better to confront the opposing viewpoints with facts and common sense than derailing it with straw man arguments or dissuading it as "haters gonna hate." Actually using constructive arguments rather than blind insults sure helps too. Just because people tend to agree with the studio more or defend them doesn't mean I resort to calling them a white knight or bioborg or whatever, I confront the opposition, not pop in, toss insults, and be off again to do it in another thread.

[TUXs]

I confront the opposition, not pop in, toss insults, and be off again to do it in another thread.

That's because you're actually trying to have a debate...some people just like to antagonize others.

[peter_plankskull]

That's because you're actually trying to have a debate...some people just like to antagonize others.

 

#Shotsfired

 

Although I agree with your statement TUX... its never too late to change Bruticis.

[Bruticis]

There's no debate to be had with the gang. If people want their voices heard, they'll learn to do so in a constructive fashion. What the gang can't seem to wrap around their heads is that constructive doesn't mean you can't be negative or offer criticism. As soon as you try to tell the gang to use big boy words they start spouting off about white knight, boot licker, brown noser, etc...

[ikinai]

#Shotsfired

 

Although I agree with your statement TUX... its never too late to change Bruticis.

 

Et tu Bruticis?

[TUXs]

There's no debate to be had with the gang. If people want their voices heard, they'll learn to do so in a constructive fashion. What the gang can't seem to wrap around their heads is that constructive doesn't mean you can't be negative or offer criticism. As soon as you try to tell the gang to use big boy words they start spouting off about white knight, boot licker, brown noser, etc...

Yet you see nothing confrontational about your own posts, nor do you notice your blatant name calling?

[peter_plankskull]

There's no debate to be had with the gang. If people want their voices heard, they'll learn to do so in a constructive fashion. What the gang can't seem to wrap around their heads is that constructive doesn't mean you can't be negative or offer criticism. As soon as you try to tell the gang to use big boy words they start spouting off about white knight, boot licker, brown noser, etc...

 

Due tell who is in this "gang" anyway.

 

Not to mention, just because this supposed "gang" does it, doesn't mean you have to get down and dirty just like them. If anything, you more than anyone seems to throw around insults, especially as of late calling people part of the "Debbie Downer" gang.

[peter_plankskull]

Et tu Bruticis?

 

The Queen of the Internet has acknowledged my post, once again making me laugh! I... I got to celebrate! I have been in the spotlight! Now is my 15 seconds of fame! My use in life! I shall make the best of it.

[Bruticis]

Due tell who is in this "gang" anyway.

 

Not to mention, just because this supposed "gang" does it, doesn't mean you have to get down and dirty just like them. If anything, you more than anyone seems to throw around insults, especially as of late calling people part of the "Debbie Downer" gang.

 

If you're insulted or feel slighted that I said gang feel free to report my post, TUX can help you find the button if needed. If you're attaching a negative attribute to the word gang, that's your own doing, not mine.

[peter_plankskull]

If you're insulted or feel slighted that I said gang feel free to report my post, TUX can help you find the button if needed. If you're attaching a negative attribute to the word gang, that's your own doing, not mine.

 

I have no problem with the word gang, just the use and context of it as you seem to always have this passive aggressive attitude when posting, then you try to act all high and mighty and the other person is the problem. Reminds me of someone else I know....

[TUXs]

If you're insulted or feel slighted that I said gang feel free to report my post, TUX can help you find the button if needed.

Yes I can. I don't tolerate personal attacks in any form. I welcome any debate of ideas about the game - tell me what you would like, I'll tell you what I would like...hopefully we can find agreement in our discussions...but I won't tolerate personal attacks just because of disagreements we have...it's not personal, it's purely ideological.

[TUXs]

Reminds me of someone else I know....

Right lol?!

[Brayla_Sana]

Trying to be helpful...

 

There are a bunch of things that changed since you were on a while back. Were you trying to pop a PVP or a PVE Queue? In the map, there is a PVE/PVP selection for every server now. There are no longer separate servers for that.

 

In game player behavior has changed a lot with not only with KOTFE but also with strongholds and cargo droids. The fleet is no longer as important as it used to be. The fleet is dead on all servers - because it is mostly not needed anymore.

[robertthebard]

Yup. The people that are pointing to things like improper word usage are doing so in an obvious attempt to derail the thread and discredit the op. Personally I don't care if someone uses the wrong word in order to attract attention to their post. What's more important to me is the context of the actual post, and in this case I think that the op did a good job of describing their issue in a way that most reasonable people could understand if taken in context.

 

What's to discredit? The guy got an email, whipped out his credit card and game them his money w/out even bothering to look at what the new content was, or how his server was doing. Since the majority of the support here seems to come from people that believe that Fleet is a good asset to track server pop, two logins, one for each faction on the Fleet, should have told him to save his money, right? What's that take, 15 minutes tops, if the game's not up to date? What is it I'd have to do to discredit him? Quote the first post with a PSA:

 

Remember children, try before you buy.

[Bruticis]

Yes I can. I don't tolerate personal attacks in any form. I welcome any debate of ideas about the game - tell me what you would like, I'll tell you what I would like...hopefully we can find agreement in our discussions...but I won't tolerate personal attacks just because of disagreements we have...it's not personal, it's purely ideological.

 

I have no issue with you reporting my posts, if you're upset by one of my posts report away and let the mods sort it. That's not my style but that's why the button is there and if you truly feel it's a personal attack, I don't see why the post shouldn't be reported.

 

So now that we've established what you wont tolerate, know that I won't tolerate a certain group of people that continuously bash anyone that tries to share a favorable opinion or bit of feedback to developers that isn't negative. I also won't tolerate a certain group of people that try to advance their agenda by making up facts and numbers.

 

Of course by saying "I won't tolerate" I mean I'm going to respond on the forums, that's pretty much the extent of my internet powers.

[TUXs]

The fleet is no longer as important as it used to be. The fleet is dead on all servers - because it is mostly not needed anymore.

Since the majority of the support here seems to come from people that believe that Fleet is a good asset to track server pop, two logins, one for each faction on the Fleet, should have told him to save his money, right?

Back to back posts stating exactly the opposite thing...lol.

 

I happen to agree with Bob. Fleet DOES give you a good idea of server health, and since it's unrealistic to expect a new player, or returning player, to level up to 10 before queuing for something that has a *pop*, it also seems to be the best gauge we have for most players. I also haven't seen Fleet used less since 4.0, I simply see less players since 4.0. KOTFE (4.0) only added a single player story that can only be completed once - nothing repeatable that would rationally explain players playing off of Fleet.

[robertthebard]

Back to back posts stating exactly the opposite thing...lol.

 

I happen to agree with Bob. Fleet DOES give you a good idea of server health, and since it's unrealistic to expect a new player, or returning player, to level up to 10 before queuing for something that has a *pop*, it also seems to be the best gauge we have for most players. I also haven't seen Fleet used less since 4.0, I simply see less players since 4.0. KOTFE (4.0) only added a single player story that can only be completed once - nothing repeatable that would rationally explain players playing off of Fleet.

 

I hide in my SHs now...

 

Although, I logged my Mara in yesterday, and for some reason, he was in the spaceport instance on Corellia... Not sure how that happened...

[TUXs]

I have no issue with you reporting my posts, if you're upset by one of my posts report away and let the mods sort it. That's not my style but that's why the button is there and if you truly feel it's a personal attack, I don't see why the post shouldn't be reported.

 

So now that we've established what you wont tolerate, know that I won't tolerate a certain group of people that continuously bash anyone that tries to share a favorable opinion or bit of feedback to developers that isn't negative. I also won't tolerate a certain group of people that try to advance their agenda by making up facts and numbers.

 

Of course by saying "I won't tolerate" I mean I'm going to respond on the forums, that's pretty much the extent of my internet powers.

Glad we have that cleared up. Thankfully, I'm not in any "gang", nor do I bash anyone, so hopefully this leads to better discussions between us in the future. Believe it or not, I even praise the Devs on occasion...

[Bruticis]

Glad we have that cleared up. Thankfully, I'm not in any "gang", nor do I bash anyone, so hopefully this leads to better discussions between us in the future. Believe it or not, I even praise the Devs on occasion...

 

I'm quite certain at one point I used your posts as an example of how people should be seeking change. The vast majority of the posts you make that are critical of the developers or a certain process are articulated and worded like an adult that wants his their feedback taken seriously.

We've only butted heads when I was either using snarky humor (which I do in nearly every post) that you thought was sincere or when you've expressed your opinion on the game dying, which I in turn challenged. I really don't have an issue with you, believe it or not.

[Rion_Starkiller]

What's to discredit? The guy got an email, whipped out his credit card and game them his money w/out even bothering to look at what the new content was, or how his server was doing. Since the majority of the support here seems to come from people that believe that Fleet is a good asset to track server pop, two logins, one for each faction on the Fleet, should have told him to save his money, right? What's that take, 15 minutes tops, if the game's not up to date? What is it I'd have to do to discredit him? Quote the first post with a PSA:

 

Thanks for telling us what he woulda-shoulda-coulda done. He didn't, and so he is paying the price (pun intended). I don't think it's uncalled for that he is upset and posted on the forums. That seems to be the thing to do here since... oh 2011.

 

Glad we have that cleared up. Thankfully, I'm not in any "gang", nor do I bash anyone, so hopefully this leads to better discussions between us in the future. Believe it or not, I even praise the Devs on occasion...

 

Same here. Praise when job done well, and criticize when done poorly. It's as simple as that. If I weren't paying for the product, I'd be less inclined to criticize.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Rion_Starkiller

[robertthebard]

Thanks for telling us what he woulda-shoulda-coulda done. He didn't, and so he is paying the price (pun intended). I don't think it's uncalled for that he is upset and posted on the forums. That seems to be the thing to do here since... oh 2011.

.

 

So it's just the viewpoint of "take responsibility for your own actions/inaction" that's giving you fits then? That's the thing about posting on forums, since the existence of forums, there may be a dissenting opinion on where the blame might lay, such as this case, where I find him at fault for not fact checking an email before he spent his money.

 

Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, but it's what I believe. He creates a problem, and then hands off blame to someone else, and look at the people that are eating it up. I get it, I do. It's a chance to dig in at EA, and that's like mandatory these days. I'd be all over it too, if I felt they were the least bit responsible for his woes. However, despite what the title would have us believe, they didn't show up at his house with a shotgun. He just didn't bother to verify what he was buying before he bought it.

Edited October 4, 2016 by robertthebard

[Exly]

So it's just the viewpoint of "take responsibility for your own actions/inaction" that's giving you fits then? That's the thing about posting on forums, since the existence of forums, there may be a dissenting opinion on where the blame might lay, such as this case, where I find him at fault for not fact checking an email before he spent his money.

 

Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, but it's what I believe. He creates a problem, and then hands off blame to someone else, and look at the people that are eating it up. I get it, I do. It's a chance to dig in at EA, and that's like mandatory these days. I'd be all over it too, if I felt they were the least bit responsible for his woes. However, despite what the title would have us believe, they didn't show up at his house with a shotgun. He just didn't bother to verify what he was buying before he bought it.

 

Have you thought of extending your logic to EA and the game developers? If so, why don't you think that they should take responsibility for their actions/inactions in regards to low population/dead servers?

 

Also, the op didn't create the problem, he discovered it. The problem already existed before he resubbed. The op did not hand off blame, he did report what he learned after resubbing, but reporting on the problem is not the same as being responsible for it.

[BobTheTeepo]

That's a terrible example. Jumping off a cliff and flying requires a miracle (or literally impossible), while paying for a subscription on a MMO server SHOULD be a normal inclusion.

 

You, sir, are a pessimist..

 

It is normal, again subbing is not the issue we're discussing. We're discussing paying for a product without researching it first, which in most areas of life (except trivial things) is a bad idea. The issue you're having, imo, is you're approaching this like it should only be about TOR, It's not. I'm talking about how if you utilize common sense, you will be burned far less often in all areas of life. This is a common sense issue, and it simply applies to TOR.

 

I'm not changing the topic. He's a returning player. A returning player seems very likely start on his/her original legacy server. He paid for a sub to get the free expansions. Come to find out, he's on a dead server. He'd like to transfer, but paying 10 more dollars for a server transfer seems steep. I completely agree.

 

Does paying for a product without even doing cursory research sound wise to you?

 

You are arguing that he should have researched first before subbing. And that is where we disagree. We are both entitled to our own opinion.

 

Sure, but your opinion is damaging. Telling people to do what their heart tells them, don't mind common sense, don't think about consequences, is harmful advice. You're welcome to have your opinion, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm trying to warn other people how dangerous that sort of action is. You will waste money in life if you spend before research. I don't only advise this in regards to ToR, I advise it in regards to any product. Research first *always*. If a product is likely to change over time, and you were once familiar with it, again, you need to research and make sure all is as it used to be.

 

The world will not conform to your pre-conceptions of it folks. This is the way all business works, they can't take care of your misunderstandings 100% of the time. Sometimes, only you are capable of doing that. Have some personal responsibility, find out for yourself, or be ready to be burned by mistaken purchasing.

 

Have a good day

 

You too : )

[Transcendent]

Someone could also douse themselves in gasoline and light a match to get attention. They likely aren't going to get the right kind of attention or help they're seeking. With the vitriol the gang spreads on this forum, the devs likely skip right past absurd titles like this one.

 

There is nothing bitter about pointing out the incorrect use of words. It's constructive critism, had the OP titled the thread more appropriately that would lend to the composition of the post contained within. A well articulated viewpoint is always going to garner more support and empathy than using hyperbole to discuss an issue within the game.

 

You would do well to remember this point when jumping into threads making accusations or assumptions based otherwise.

[BobTheTeepo]

Have you thought of extending your logic to EA and the game developers? If so, why don't you think that they should take responsibility for their actions/inactions in regards to low population/dead servers?

 

Also, the op didn't create the problem, he discovered it. The problem already existed before he resubbed. The op did not hand off blame, he did report what he learned after resubbing, but reporting on the problem is not the same as being responsible for it.

 

Recognizing that Bioware should do something about so many dead servers is not the same as saying they deserve the blame in this case. It's not their fault someone payed without seeing if their server is populated enough, in any way. That's not to say there is no issue with server population, but rather that these specific people commit an error that is not only an error here but an error in most areas of life. You don't buy before researching at least a little, or if you do you prepare to be burned and don't blame the company if you are.

 

So sure, we can sit here and argue as people have for months/years now about dying populations and about how that's Bioware's fault... but that's a different topic. Bioware is at fault for THAT, MAYBE, but NOT at fault for people paying before looking. That is squarely on the person who bought without really giving it a good think. There's a reason why impulse buying is frowned upon if you value your money, and you don't blame the products you impulse buy when they don't work like you think they will without actually having researched if they will.

 

EXACTLY! Any game that you need to research the servers on, is not a healthy or friendly game. I'd rather quit than be expected to do freaking research. Blaming the customer is just asinine. This is BIOWARE's fault, not their customers. Paying them extra because your server died, is just mind boggling to me.

 

Research in this case is called logging into the freaking game. Sorry, people already research to find out if they even like the game in the first place, researching it's combat, researching it's graphics etc... This is completely normal. You can log into the game for 5 minutes, or literally google "swtor server population" and instantly have the information. Don't pretend like that's absurd amounts of work or something, it's so minor nobody should think twice about it.

 

As for your assertions that it's asinine, they're just that, assertions. In my opinion it's juvenile to blame the company any time you have an issue with one of it's products.

 

OP,

 

I don't know how long you've been away, but as you might be able to discern, the forums are full of toxic trolls. If you ever get to a populated server, you'll see that general chat is equally infested with trolls.

 

I hear you and sympathize with your situation. I am sorry that you find yourself in a game that is, for whatever reason labelled as an MMORPG. In short, you fell for the Star Wars bait too. Unfortunately, if you attempt to play the Massively Multi-Player aspect of this game, you will likely find yourself as shocked, if not more shocked than you find yourself at the state of your once thriving server. SWTOR is VERY, and I stress VERY single-player oriented now. The whole 16-Chapter thingy that you might be starting, you will have to do completely alone. Game mechanics have been put in place such that you cannot, no matter what you try, play the new content with friends. Massively Multi-Player at its best eh.

 

Again, sorry you fell for their propaganda. Luckily, I was sub'd during the 90CC server transfer extravaganza and find myself on a populated server with a great guild.

 

Good luck with your crusade and try to ignore the *****-Hats that seem to like the single-player game that SWTOR has become since they appear to do their level-best to drive new and returning players away. A short-sighted venture in my opinion. Reminds me of PvP griefers that, once they drive off any perspective players, later complain that there isn't enough PvP

 

I like how you charge the community with being toxic, and then go on to describe everyone who likes the focus on solo content as "*****-Hats" lol.

 

Always amazes me how the negative side of the community in videos games never realizes how insanely toxic they are to it.

Edited October 5, 2016 by BobTheTeepo