Game has died, Nowhere to go

[MeNaCe-NZ]

https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/4obs2g/snave_interviews_musco/

 

Thanks - it was about what I expected and rather uninformative and I even go as far as to question the honesty to a lot of it ( that's just me though ) but at least it's something.

 

Players killed the PvP servers: they decided to move off the servers.

 

This statement is one that makes the entire interview null and void imo ... do they truly believe this? That it's somehow the players fault and not their own by having a product that drove so many away to begin with?

 

Poor form on that one Eric.

[Alanbra]

That interview was actually my last straw. I had told myself that I'd wait and see what was announced at the London cantina, but seeing how it was the players that caused the dead servers and that monthly mob filled hallways with a cut scene at each end is the biggest expansion the game has ever had was my breaking point. One more long term subscriber, heading out.

[Costello]

The interview is really disappointing in that up until this point you could hope that the dev team were ignorant of many of the facts or it was a lack of communication or something.

 

However it seems clear that actually its utter indifference or simply not having the staff to do anything about it. The hybrid issue has been around since they had classes that could off tank or off heal. They removed much of the option to customize characters to get rid of the hybrid spec and then when its brought up having been in game for what a year and a half (possible 2 years) its yeah we are still looking at how to fix it.... A year and a half and still looking at it is not a team that cares or is going to get anything done.

 

Most of the answers where variations on 'meh but what are you going to do'. Eric seems like a nice guy and its in no way on him but for 90 mins of questions and answers and there were some damn good questions and the few answers were well you players may think this but the metrics show your wrong. Or we need more metrics so yeah your class sucks in season 7 but at the end we may look at the classes and go oh yeah does seem to be the same classes dominating again. Must be better players play them, has nothing to do with the class.

 

If the devs are reading the forums and wondering why the servers are light most the time a few pointers:

 

The Story which is the big thing this year is closer to bad fan fiction. We have cartoonish bad guys, everyone shoe horned into the same plot, massive plot holes and managed to make a galaxy at war dull with very focused chapters on meetings with crew or finding water or recruiting one person I don't even like.

The content which if you accept no group content offers little to no replay value and little engagement with the player. Coupled with no impact on the story seriously nothing you do in the game has any effect on the story.

Choices don't mater. Touched on with the other points but a big thing for this season and it turns out the only choices that matter is if you kill someone or they just disappear never to be seen or spoke to again. And even then suggesting killing someone matters is like asking if I want 29 or 30 spoons for sugar in my coffee. Are you insane at that point its going to be undrinkable anyway. So that important choice of do I have 29 companions or 30 just means 1 more companion I don't send on crew missions, I can only send 6 at a time anyway.

Class balance is non existent. there is already incredibly limited choice in class build and gear and its still no existent. Go look at Elder Scrolls Online at all the choices you have, sure some down right suck but at least you can choose.

Combat and Game Engine. The Hero engine was perhaps the worst decision ever made by a guy that helped spearhead the SWG NGE, some people should not be left unsupervised.

The people making the decisions seem to be insane. I don't know who decided on resources for the Eternal Championship, I tried it out on an alt without optimal gear and got through with 4 death (appreciated I suck on snipers hence the 4 deaths) and I did not find it fun or a learning experience. It was frustrating running around dodging ground of death or mobs that hit for 30% of my health in one blow. It felt more like being beaten for making mistakes than helping me learn anything. But then the combat engine encourages paint by numbers.

 

But it seems that the few people still left working on the game phone it in everyday. Maybe they are hoping it does die and they can go work on mass effect or a new project which doesn't use the specially broken hero engine. Its a free to play game and it doesn't even seem that people want to log in for free.

[Andryah]

Thanks - it was about what I expected and rather uninformative and I even go as far as to question the honesty to a lot of it ( that's just me though ) but at least it's something.

 

 

 

This statement is one that makes the entire interview null and void imo ... do they truly believe this? That it's somehow the players fault and not their own by having a product that drove so many away to begin with?

 

Poor form on that one Eric.

 

Well, in actuality... it was players that transferred off the PvP servers, once they were no longer PvP servers... with other PvPers in this forum cheering them and encouraging them to do so. Reasons mostly = want more players to queue with for PvP... hence moving to more populated servers. So, while the comment from Eric might be distasteful to some.. it is actually accurate. PvP players have been server hopping for the "perfect" server since the days when PvPers declared The Fatman the PvP server everyone should converge on way back in 2012.

 

As for the studio "driving players away".... a studio cannot drive players away, unless they ban them. They certainly can cause players to not want to continue to subscribe because of content mismatch to players wants/needs. But it is the players that make the choice to stay or go. No MMO is right for every player... so to blame the studio for not being all things to all players is kind of jaded IMO.

 

IMO, this extremism either way in the studio vs players "blame game" is unproductive and pointless. Both parties share the blame in my view as both have a proven track record of being fickle in nature. There is plenty of blame to go around in my view. {But of course, players are never wrong or guilty of anything.. only the studio}

 

One thing is certain though..... no matter what Eric says, or does not say, someone will use it as a platform to declare the game dead and the studio inept.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Andryah

[gabigool]

Well, in actuality... it was players that transferred off the PvP servers, once they were no longer PvP servers... with other PvPers in this forum cheering them and encouraging them to do so. Reasons mostly = want more players to queue with for PvP... hence moving to more populated servers. So, while the comment from Eric might be distasteful to some.. it is actually accurate. PvP players have been server hopping for the "perfect" server since the days when PvPers declared The Fatman the PvP server everyone should converge on way back in 2012.

 

As for the studio "driving players away".... a studio cannot drive players away, unless they ban them. They certainly can cause players to not want to continue to subscribe because of content mismatch to players wants/needs. But it is the players that make the choice to stay or go. No MMO is right for every player... so to blame the studio for not being all things to all players is kind of jaded IMO.

 

IMO, this extremism either way in the studio vs players "blame game" is unproductive and pointless. Both parties share the blame in my view as both have a proven track record of being fickle in nature. There is plenty of blame to go around in my view. {But of course, players are never wrong or guilty of anything.. only the studio}

 

One thing is certain though..... no matter what Eric says, or does not say, someone will use it as a platform to declare the game dead and the studio inept.

 

The confusion is strong in this one.

[commanderwar]

I actually enjoy the interview surprisingly, I was not expecting much. But Eric in the interview was well involve and knowledgeable, also prepared I had doubt but I like. Edited June 19, 2016 by commanderwar

[king_nile]

SWTORs not dead yet!

 

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Well, in actuality... it was players that transferred off the PvP servers, once they were no longer PvP servers... with other PvPers in this forum cheering them and encouraging them to do so. Reasons mostly = want more players to queue with for PvP... hence moving to more populated servers. So, while the comment from Eric might be distasteful to some.. it is actually accurate. PvP players have been server hopping for the "perfect" server since the days when PvPers declared The Fatman the PvP server everyone should converge on way back in 2012.

 

As for the studio "driving players away".... a studio cannot drive players away, unless they ban them. They certainly can cause players to not want to continue to subscribe because of content mismatch to players wants/needs. But it is the players that make the choice to stay or go. No MMO is right for every player... so to blame the studio for not being all things to all players is kind of jaded IMO.

 

IMO, this extremism either way in the studio vs players "blame game" is unproductive and pointless. Both parties share the blame in my view as both have a proven track record of being fickle in nature. There is plenty of blame to go around in my view. {But of course, players are never wrong or guilty of anything.. only the studio}

 

One thing is certain though..... no matter what Eric says, or does not say, someone will use it as a platform to declare the game dead and the studio inept.

 

Firstly you speak of "actuality" but have nothing to support it so really you are speculating at best. What I can also speculate on and relate it to observations is that if it was all from players transferring off these servers then the other servers should have shown a noticeable increase in population and speaking for Harb ( and what we can see on torstatus ) this is not the case. This past month has been some of the quietest in terms of MMO content I've yet to see.

 

Even the usual PVP banter between rounds seems not existent these days yet I would expect more of it if indeed all the PVP players had moved as opposed to just leaving the game.

 

Now this if of course all anecdotal evidence however it's a lot more than posting about an "actuality" without anything at all to support it.

 

Now of course studios can drive players away ... to say otherwise is silly. If they refuse to listen and make changes that ruin my enjoyment of the game to the point I feel I won't pay or play anymore then to me I would feel like they've driven me away and for many ex players ( who can't speak up on these forums of course ) this is how they too feel.

 

You might not see it as them being driven away but sorry it really doesn't matter what you or I think in that regard, it's how the person who isn't here giving the game money any more thinks and feels.

 

As to blame I think it's fine to blame the studio or the producer ( EA ) after all they are the ones who make the calls that piss people off. To put it another way ... should we not also thank and praise them for when they also give us content we want or something we truly enjoy? Of course we should because they did something we like likewise when they do something we don't like we should feel free to blame them for ruining out experience.

 

To give a clear example: Level sync. This afftected how people played the game prior to it coming in. Some people loved it ... "thanks Bioware you've made old content relevant for me again!", others hated it ..."stuff you bioware you've completely ruined the old content for me now!". Who is right and who is wrong? Both parties are right because they are talking about how they feel about the game, it's not for anyone else to tell others how they should or shouldn't feel about the game.

[Andryah]

Firstly you speak of "actuality" but have nothing to support it so really you are speculating at best.

 

Oh come on..... the only transfers that happened in recent history are player generated transfers. Period. That is actually what happened.

 

Reasons for players transferring .... totally separate discussion and I'm sure it's all over the map given the diversity of the player base. I recently transferred 18 characters, and none of them was to seek out the biggest server. I'm sure many players did though.. and many did it for other reasons. The catalyst was of course 90cc transfer fees.

 

Now.. you can play the "the big bad studio made me transfer" or "made me quit and uninstall the game" nonsense if you like. Can't stop you, don't care.

 

As for the "blame" it rests with both the studio and the players. It's a symbiotic relationship for the most part. It's a pointless line of discussion because there are those that insist on the "victim" model, and there are those that do not... so it will just keep circling the drain.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Andryah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Oh come on..... the only transfers that happened in recent history are player generated transfers. Period. That is actually what happened.

 

So the PVP servers are dead because everyone transferred off them? That's what you are contending here, not that they might be dead due to, oh I don't know, players not playing anymore? I personally contend it's a combination but the "not playing" factor being the larger factor being that those servers were sparsely populated to begin with over the past year or so and they didn't get into the state from full priced transfer I doubt.

 

Reasons for players transferring .... totally separate discussion and I'm sure it's all over the map given the diversity of the player base. I recently transferred 18 characters, and none of them was to seek out the biggest server. I'm sure many players did though.. and many did it for other reasons. The catalyst was of course 90cc transfer fees.

 

Now.. you can play the "the big bad studio made me transfer" or "made me quit and uninstall the game" nonsense if you like. Can't stop you, don't care.

 

As for the "blame" it rests with both the studio and the players. It's a symbiotic relationship for the most part. It's a pointless line of discussion because there are those that insist on the "victim" model, and there are those that do not... so it will just keep circling the drain.

 

You are still ignoring the main point here, for the PVP servers to have died due to mostly transfers then the other servers should have seen an equal upsurge in players but personally as a regular player on one of the biggest servers I've seen noticed a downward trend in the amount of players playing.

 

Also discussions only tend to become pointless it seems when you run out of relevant retorts to points made? I don't think people who have a valid issue think to themselves "hmm I think I'm going to play a victim today" I personally think the majority have valid gripes. If I don't think they do then I'll counter whatever point it is they think they are making such as the more ludicrous points such as "game is dead mega server nao!".

 

I would wager the majority of players with such a gripe though just stop playing, these sort of outlets are really a minority meaning the majority who leave do so silently for the most part.

[Andryah]

So the PVP servers are dead because everyone transferred off them? That's what you are contending here, not that they might be dead due to, oh I don't know, players not playing anymore? I personally contend it's a combination but the "not playing" factor being the larger factor being that those servers were sparsely populated to begin with over the past year or so and they didn't get into the state from full priced transfer I doubt.

 

There has been ample discussion on this forum that shows clearly that players did in fact transfer off of PvP servers in favor of a much larger PvE server. And they had plenty of other PvPers actively encouraging them to do so in the forum as well .. for months. PvP servers have had smaller populations then PvE servers for a loooooonnng time now too.. so no surprise that the most restless of communities in an MMO would abandon a server in favor of another. It happened for PvPers before the first server merges too, and before there was any sort of character transfer program. People rerolled in mass to The Fatman in 2012.... and yet The Fatman did not survive the server consolidations either... because a lot of those same players went back to their old characters on old servers post server consolidation.

 

The 90cc transfer in fact did encourage players to transfer rather the walk away... hence the huge frenzy to transfer at the last minute before the 90cc sale expired.. followed by much gnashing of teeth in the forum from PvPers stating that they needed to transfer and wanted the 90cc sale back... followed by one last flourish of late transfers as people jump ship to the largest server in their server farm.

 

Now... none of my comments in any way discount the fact that players do in fact just leave the game completely... but for you to insist that that is the major reason server populations are down right now is just ludicrous IMO. We are in the lull period between expacs.... and we always see a large fall off in active play (people actually playing, no direct bearing on sub numbers or revenue) until the studio begins teasing out the next expac.

 

Remember ... the servers were so busy in the weeks after 4.0 went live that they had to configure a number of the servers to handle higher populations and avoid login queues. Not the PvP servers, but pretty much all of the PvE servers.

 

If you only want to discuss this from a PvP perspective... fine... this MMO has always been weak sauce for avid PvPers.... so nothing new here... except that actual PvP servers no longer exist at all.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Andryah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

There has been ample discussion on this forum that shows clearly that players did in fact transfer off of PvP servers in favor of a much larger PvE server.[

And they had plenty of other PvPers actively encouraging them to do so in the forum as well .. for months. PvP servers have had smaller populations then PvE servers for a loooooonnng time now too.. so no surprise that the most restless of communities in an MMO would abandon a server in favor of another. It happened for PvPers before the first server merges too, and before there was any sort of character transfer program. People rerolled in mass to The Fatman in 2012.... and yet The Fatman did not survive the server consolidations either... because a lot of those same players went back to their old characters on old servers post server consolidation.

 

The 90cc transfer in fact did encourage players to transfer rather the walk away... hence the huge frenzy to transfer at the last minute before the 90cc sale expired.. followed by much gnashing of teeth in the forum from PvPers stating that they needed to transfer and wanted the 90cc sale back... followed by one last flourish of late transfers as people jump ship to the largest server in their server farm.

 

/quote]

 

Such data is flawed from the outset a) forum users are such a large minority of the population on a whole and b) forum users can't be users who left the game.

 

Whilst you can argue all you like that yes lots of people did indeed transfer off these servers you can't conclude that's the primary reason why the servers ended up dead.

 

Further to this and using this forum data you speak of, if you go over the posts you mention you'll find the primary reason for people transferring off the dead/dieing PVP servers is because they were dead/dieing PVP servers. Thus there was problem before the transferring which caused people to "abandon ship".

 

Now... none of my comments in any way discount the fact that players do in fact just leave the game completely... but for you to insist that that is the major reason server populations are down right now is just ludicrous IMO. We are in the lull period between expacs.... and we always see a large fall off in active play (people actually playing, no direct bearing on sub numbers or revenue) until the studio begins teasing out the next expac.

 

Remember ... the servers were so busy in the weeks after 4.0 went live that they had to configure a number of the servers to handle higher populations and avoid login queues. Not the PvP servers, but pretty much all of the PvE servers.

 

If you only want to discuss this from a PvP perspective... fine... this MMO has always been weak sauce for avid PvPers.... so nothing new here... except that actual PvP servers no longer exist at all.

 

The primary reason the server populations are down right now is due to people stopping playing s a ludicrous reason to you? How is that ludicrous?

By definition if server population is down it's because people have stopped playing ... to say anything else wouldn't make any sense but by all means ... justify your statement.

 

Also I'm not talking what comes next and whether or not it might boost the population again. I'm talking solely the state of affairs right now and most anecdotal evidence points towards a dwindling population ... is there anything to the contrary?

Further to that I'm talking that dwindling population is from people stopping playing, not transferring - transferring would keep overall population static or other servers increasing in population whilst others decrease.

Off the back of all that comes the "blame game" and I as said before I believe a user is perfectly entitled to blame BW for them not wanting to play this game anymore if they feel it's due to BW changes or lack of content added that has caused them to do so.

[MaximumOwnage]

6/25/16 and yall wont have to read my post any longer.

[CrazyCT]

6/25/16 and yall wont have to read my post any longer.

 

What month is 25?

[MaximumOwnage]

What month is 25?

 

Its February.

[CrazyCT]

Its February.

 

Cool, plenty of time left then

[MaximumOwnage]

Cool, plenty of time left then

 

In a strange way, I will miss you

[CrazyCT]

In a strange way, I will miss you

 

Miss me? No, you won't.

Edited June 22, 2016 by CrazyCT

[Max_Killjoy]

What month is 25?

 

I suspect that's US common usage, so June 25th, 2016.

[Clone_Enforcer]

Why is this a thing?

[MaximumOwnage]

Why is this a thing?

 

Its been a thing since 118,000 views ago.

[Codedrago]

6/25/16 and yall wont have to read my post any longer.

 

Yeah, totes. I fully expect you to stay gone this time. Fifth times the charm, right?

[MaximumOwnage]

Yeah, totes. I fully expect you to stay gone this time. Fifth times the charm, right?

 

Yeah. The only reason why Im subbed was to straighten out our 2 guilds so if any of our original group from SWG log into this game again we will still have our guild ships. But the original group have long quit this game and I was the last hold out till now. So minus a mega server, you wont see me around anymore. And I don't expect our original group from SWG to return. The last time even 1 of them logged in was Nov 2015.

[Codedrago]

Yeah. The only reason why Im subbed was to straighten out our 2 guilds so if any of our original group from SWG log into this game again we will still have our guild ships. But the original group have long quit this game and I was the last hold out till now. So minus a mega server, you wont see me around anymore. And I don't expect our original group from SWG to return. The last time even 1 of them logged in was Nov 2015.

 

So, I'll see you soon then?

[MaximumOwnage]

So, I'll see you soon then?

 

If they create a mega server soon, then yes. Otherwise Im afraid you wont be seeing me soon. I will miss the forums, but the game in its current state I will not miss at all. Frankly it is more aggravating these days then it is pleasurable. But the forums I will miss. This account was made pre beta and I have been here since day 1. But enough is enough for me.