The premade problem

[DarthRaika]

These threads seem mimic our current political landscape with the extreme polar opposites!

 

The discussion shouldn't be a. Premades are great!!!!! or b. Ban Premades!!!!

 

It is obvious that the current system has many lopsided matches. I think (almost) all of us know that. However, it is also obvious that many people like to play together and this is a good thing. Furthermore, it should be obvious that with the current pvp population that requiring 4 full premades to start a match is a little much.

 

So we should be able to realize that something needs to be done but this something shouldn't be as severe as banning premades or completely splitting the Q.

 

What can and should be done is to add a basic matchmaking system that when a premade q's up the system waits up to at least a few minutes to try to place a premade on the other team. This has be done in other games and works well. It is more fun for everyone since the amount of even matches increases. This definitely doesn't make all matches even but it is an improvement.

 

Also, once a system like this is in place then in the future more matchmaking options can be taken into consideration.

 

Lets not all be like the idiot dems and pubs and instead think about what is best for most of us.

[KashyyykForest]

Basic matchmaking. Premades aren't inherently more skilled than pug groups, but the fact they can enter each wz with a balanced team composition(tank, heals, dps) ensures an advantage over a large % of pug groups because healers are more rare than dps, and having a tank is more rare yet. Yet, these roles make a phenomenal difference in the outcome of a match.

 

If the system would wait a certain period of time before the match starts to try to balance the team composition, then pug groups would start to put up much more of a fight, and probably find themselves having (gasp!) fun playing against most premades.

 

Also, giving each player a hidden rating as others have mentioned would be nice as well.

[blunite]

Anytime I solo que and see im up against a stacked premade, the outcome is so obvious in the first 20 seconds . I just leave the warzone. I probably leave over half the warzones I que in. Im not going to waste me time getting farmed. Why would anybody? Sadly the people I usually play with have left the game due to its many issues, so im forced to que solo. Next stop for me is leaving the game also.

[Lhancelot]

I'm like...yeah. you're 3-4 bad pvpers and you chose to GROUP together. so now there's a guaranteed concentration of sh^t in every WZ you play.

 

lol... I see certain guild groups, in fact.... me and a pal ended up with 6 (SIX!!!!!) of the same guild, and they were AWFUL. I just wonder if they grinding conquest, companions, I have no idea... But it was bad.

 

I realized if I ever seen 3-4 of them or god forbid 6 of them in one wz, I am leaving. It's so strange to me to see an entire group that probably queue synced be so bad and uncoordinated.

 

Anyway, I always wondered what it was like for them, now I know. They even are in voip too. Complaining probably about how bad we are losing. I bet me and my pal got blamed for the loss too.

[jedcjedcjedc]

very few guilds are composed of radically different skilled players. there's always the token carry friend or something. but generally, if you're in the same guild, you're in the same ball park in skill.

 

the funny thing, though, and the reason I felt compelled to reply, is that I stayed in my origin server guild (casual pve) until recently with at least some of my imp toons. they started q-syncing, which annoyed me on a ethics level. before that, however, they would grp up together to pvp. I purposefully avoided grping with them. they just weren't good. it's like a 4-man of <guild> was a cancer-laced anchor in every WZ. and then you'd get into mumble and they'd be complaining about getting wrecked. I'm like...yeah. you're 3-4 bad pvpers and you chose to GROUP together. so now there's a guaranteed concentration of sh^t in every WZ you play.

 

it's not just about the better players usually grping together. this whole "make friends" "go premade yourself" rhetoric is moronic. it would be silly to ban premades from the queue. and the population is too small to split the queue. so any sane person would have to acknowledge that hey, you gotta compromise a bit here. there are less radical things to do.

 

but yeah...I just thought it was funny that the premade issue is super common. but it's not just there's all those great 4-mans running around. it's that it preloads the team with a bunch of players of similar skill together with no regard for the skill of the other team....or the role, but that's a bit different issue.

 

You're getting into ratings in regs territory at that point, and on a per class basis. There doesn't seem to be much point discussing this atm though, just about everyone posting in this kind of thread now is "we're losing, it must be a premades fault, ban premades, split the que, make everybodys que times 3 hours long, i demand it!!"

[Campaigner]

I am bad and no one ever wants to play with me.

 

Solution? Ban premades.

[Campaigner]

Also, I like how much the original poster projects the "I need friends to help me" reasoning for premades.

 

Players that have the learning capacity to improve and not suck all day, every day, tend to get better on their own and in doing so get recognized for their solo ability. This leads to recruitment into premades.

 

Players that, like the OP, suck all the time and are hated by the decent pug solo players around them are not talked to and may indeed consider that "oh maybe I need someone to carry me." These players would probably prefer that premades be banned because they will never be in any of the decent ones and just end up making forum threads to highlight how mentally handicapped they are.

[Smilinghawk]

Well a good premade can make a game very one sided, particularly when it's a (decent) heals and tank combo. And onesided is usually quite boring.

 

Maybe not ban premades outright, but some indicator in game that these players are in a premade, like a symbol around the nameplate of people in the same group. Some shame should definitively be involved when rofl stomping on pugs you know.

 

Or a tiebreaker rule that awards the win to the pug side or the side with less premades. Also definitively disable grouping in lowbies, that is poison to pvp.

[Lundorff]

Just quit every match that has more than 2 members from the same guild on any side. Far from ideal, but never accept getting farmed or be the farmer yourself.

[DarthOvertone]

Well what the premade losers should ask themselves is why they need an optimized group setup to handle the solo content in the the game.

 

There is ranked for groups - anyone needing to group up for regs is a sad loser.

 

So salty. Made me laugh... lol

[Campaigner]

Just quit every match that has more than 2 members from the same guild on any side. Far from ideal, but never accept getting farmed or be the farmer yourself.

 

B-b-but what if 4 of the solo pug players on the other team PvP a lot and know each other's playstyle well enough to work decently as a team?! I guess that would be totally unfair too!

Edited February 29, 2016 by Campaigner

[Lundorff]

B-b-but what if 4 of the solo pug players on the other team PvP a lot and know each other's playstyle well enough to work decently as a team?! I guess that would be totally unfair too!

 

Actually yes and that is why professional sport has ranks, leagues and different tiers depending on experience. But this is just a game and not even close to an eSport environment, so we will have to settle for a simpler solution: match making + premade vs. premades. But unfortunately that will not happen in this game, so I just leave and find a more balanced match.

 

And for the record, I don't quit unless I am quite certain either party are running a premade - that screenshot is from today in match against the republic. I suspect they were grouping, but I didn't notice 3/4 guild mates, so I stuck it out but to no avail.

[foxmob]

So salty. Made me laugh... lol

 

I think what he needs to ask himself is why would any healer or tank ever NOT enter queue without the other. that's especially true of op and merc healers. sorc heals...ok. they're frustratingly designed to dominate tankless queues. but seriously. if you heal and you DON'T try to roll with a tank...I mean...that is the way the game is designed to be played. .

[Clone_Enforcer]

I know there are hundreds of different forum threads on this subject, I just figured it was time to add my two-cents to it. Throughout my 3 years of playing swtor, i have been, addicted lets say, to pvp. I do it almost every day as a solo que player. In my time of pvping, i have run into my fair share of premades. More than a few of which has had me enraged to the point of just blind destruction. Now, its time for this issue is resolved. In my time, I have only done 1 single "premade" and by that I mean just myself and two friends grouped together for one wz. Now I get that it must be fun doing mega premades, I really do get it. But all your doing is just creating hatred and frustration for a lot of veteran players like myself who prefer solo ques and also some inexperienced players who go into wzs just looking for a good time, but they then get obliterated by a premade group. It has to end.

 

Many people on this subject say the best solution is to just outright ban premades. I cant blame them, I do think premades should be banned, but the banning should be based on the premade composition. If its a standard ops group of 2 tanks, 4 dps, and 2 healers, then that im fine with, but if your going up against a mega premade consisting of for example: 4 sages, 2 dps, 2 healer, a scoundrel healer, 2 vanguards, one tank spec, and a shadow, that is where the banning must be. A team like that destroys almost any pug group. And all it does is again create hatred and frustration among the enemy.

 

Now what is about to be said is a personal viewpoint so please dont take it personally

 

If your one of those people who do almost nothing but premades in PvP, then what are you really proving. You are not proving your own strength, your own skill. You are not willing to fight face to face with your enemy. You become cowards who rely too much on others to help you get the job done. You are not even close to those of us who solo que and we go head to head with about half of the enemy team without any assistance and defeat them. Until you actually go through that situation and you come out standing, do not, and I mean DO NOT think for one second you are better than someone who solo ques. Because your not, your afraid. You may not realize it, but you fear odds like those. You think "I will just wait for my teammates to help me". Until you do, dont even attempt PvP.

 

End of personal viewpoint

 

Now another issue that arises when you deal with premades, is the taunting and essentially bullying that pug groups receive from premades. Typically at the end of a match, one or more members of the premade start to insult the pug group and essentially turning them away from PvP due to the harsh treatment they receive from their opponents. Now many of you will say "they are just being butt hurt little babies". And that is along the lines of that bullying attitude. That is another thing that must end.

 

Potential Solution

 

Now, as I stated above, there are many who would say an outright ban to premades is the best solution. In a sense, that is a bit of a double edged sword. If you outright ban premades in PvP, you risk turning off a good chunk of the pvp community. Now there was a forum post that spoke of a separate que for pvp, dedicated to premade groups. Personally, I think that would be the best solution because it would allow pugs to go against pugs, and premades to go against premades. Now depending on the server, premades will undoubtedly run into longer que times. That can be alleviated via either cross server ques, or a mega server. Now will Bioware actually do that, my guess is no. But it is something to think about. And if you are a strictly premade pvp player, go on out and actually do pugs honestly, its better(in my opinion) than going into a premade because you never know what will happen in the match, and to me thats the best part, the unexpected twists of one hell of a pvp match

 

You're right dude, it's more fun doing something different during warzones instead of the usual routines. I also agree that Bioware/EA should add a new option to either queue against a group of players as a solo player or not.

[Clone_Enforcer]

Just quit every match that has more than 2 members from the same guild on any side. Far from ideal, but never accept getting farmed or be the farmer yourself.

 

That's another issue we have: Players quitting during matches without putting effort to it. I had a queue with republic versus republic teams a few days ago and a few in my team complained and decided to leave before the first round ended on voidstar. That's so dumb. Bioware/EA needs to put a time limit whenever a player leaves a match that hasn't been finished yet the way group finder does. I'm sick of queueing with these sore losers. They don't want to pull their weight around and just want the "Credits" to roll in their pockets. I say hell no to that.

[Icykill_]

Premades aren't a problem, they are the saviour of PVP quality.. And this is why

 

Premades ...because there are so many bads in pugs, it is nearly impossible to get a semi competent pug group.

I am usually completely amazed if I get a pug group that has everyone with crystals equiped in weapons or at level 65 that people aren't wearing the highest lvl PVE gear with 900 expertise.

Premades are the only way to have at least half a competent team. Even if the other half are bads, the 4 of you should be able to carry them if your good enough.

There are lots of premade teams that aren't super good, but have some ability. These teams are usually what pugs used to be like. They aren't super good, they just know how to play.

People who think premades ruin PVP are wrong in my opinion, premades are the only thing keeping PVP going.

I often find random competent players to form premades, just so we have like minded PVP people on our team.

If anyone is finding issues playing against premades then I suggest you ask competent people you find in matches if they want to form a premade.

[Savej]

Premades aren't a problem, they are the saviour of PVP quality.. And this is why

 

It's very not healthy for the game when new players can't get a foothold and just get stomped over and over by organized jerks in every bracket. How are they supposed to learn? What are they supposed to learn? To lose fast so they finish their dlyies?

[foxmob]

It's very not healthy for the game when new players can't get a foothold and just get stomped over and over by organized jerks in every bracket. How are they supposed to learn? What are they supposed to learn? To lose fast so they finish their dlyies?

 

I know you said recently that you've been messing around in leveling brackets. I have to say that leveling brackets are and always have been frustrating for everyone involved. I hated it solo b/c the idiocy level is beyond reckoning. I hate it when I run into premades of good players b/c they obliterate everyone (4m in lowbie is all you need to dominate). honestly, leveling brackets are the worst pvp I've ever experienced. it has nothing to do with premades vs. pugs even though premades can *seem* like an issue. the problem leveling is 16 chickens with their heads cut off. I'll never understand why ppl choose to stay there.

[Morphiritus]

Unranked PVP should never allow more than groups of 2. This would fix the issue of premades. It would be near inpossible to get these groups that are so needy that they must own PVP. Also they should make Ranked Groups Must be 4 or 8 in size. All would be happy, but the ones whio cannot play.

[Dacce]

Whether I am in lowbies or 65's the biggest group of people I group with is 2 (total). Generally I just solo queue.

 

At the end of the day, if you are above average at PVP you can have fun even if you are on the losing team. And it's even better when you make the other team /spit on you or rage at you in /say.

 

Have other goals rather than I must win, it will improve your gaming experience.

[Omecrion]

Also, I like how much the original poster projects the "I need friends to help me" reasoning for premades.

 

Players that have the learning capacity to improve and not suck all day, every day, tend to get better on their own and in doing so get recognized for their solo ability. This leads to recruitment into premades.

 

Players that, like the OP, suck all the time and are hated by the decent pug solo players around them are not talked to and may indeed consider that "oh maybe I need someone to carry me." These players would probably prefer that premades be banned because they will never be in any of the decent ones and just end up making forum threads to highlight how mentally handicapped they are.

 

Just a little FYI, im not a terrible player, im actually a very competent player. I have played the PvP in this game since i started playing. On my main, which is a jedi guardian, I am usually a nightmare for people because I know what the hell to do and how to do it. I am personally able to go into a 1v6 situation and wreak hell on my opponents. Depending on the match, I average to about 2.4k-2.7k dps with usually 160k protection, as a dps, with roughly 200k healing thanks to focused defense. I have fought and defeated players who have played since beta and they ask me how the hell I beat them and I straight up tell them. So im not one of those who "suck all the time" nor am I one of the "I need friends to help me" sort of people. I have fought my hardest in this game's PvP even though I should have given up long ago because I do believe this PvP could be salvaged. So I am sorry for actually giving a dam about this game. So before you start spouting toxic comments, do a little research on who your saying them to.

[NENADXN]

I don't think that's true. the op is kinda hopeless (yet another thread) and that bobbafatter guy. why did you even bother replying to his idiocy?

 

but seriously, you have to understand that better players usually grp with better players. and the problem with that is it often puts the 4 best (or worst!) players in the match on the same team. and it's not random, so the 4 best (or worst!) players in the match are always on the same team. that is a significant issue.

 

but I'm also not retarded. there's a limit to the "policing" you can do or expect from any governing body before revolt. there are also a plethora of other things that should reasonbly be taken care of before even thinking about splitting queues. I mean...the most obvious thing is role matching. x-faction. x-server. limit the number of players from the same guild on the same team (a reasonable attempt to prevent super queues). balance the number of pugs for both squads. there's probably a dozen things that are less radical and less polarizing than the idiocy some of these ppl propose. so I'm with you there. but on the other hand...yeah. I mean. you'd have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see how having the 4 best or the 4 worst players in the match always on the same team turns most WZs and all arenas into a joke.

Spoiler alert.Bobbafatter is seen too often in premade teams in last few weeks.

[NENADXN]

Maybe you should just ask yourself why you don't have any friends to play with? Is it because you kept calling them all losers? It is, isn't it?

Quite on the contrary .He is in a guild and that means he have friends .I have a better question for him .

Why do you call your guildies losers?

[NENADXN]

I have to agree with OP overall. Time and again I solo queue in Regs and see this one guild on our server (Shadowlands). I think they came from Harbinger but I am not certain of that. They only play with premade groups, usually tank + healer + 2 DPS. Sometimes they get a double premade going and you will end up with 20+ people in the other team due to so many leaving. They don't care how much damage they are doing to PvP in SWTOR. They "just want to play with our friends!" (translation: "we want to stomp every pug we can and win, that is all that matters to us. we don't want a real challenge.")

 

This is NOT good for PvP. It drives away people who might have actually played on a regular basis if they'd had any chance at all.

 

When not facing a premade we see bizarre matchmaking. For instance, a Voidstar I played the other day with 3 healers, 2 tanks, and 3 DPS on one team. The other team had NO healers, 3 tanks, and 5 DPS. With proper matchmaking this would not happen.

 

So, we need two things for PvP. We need proper Matchmaking, and we need Solo Queue. I personally don't care if a premade has to wait for hours for a queue to pop. A solo queue would pop constantly!

 

Okay now Im 100% sure that all those *premade* threads are coming from US servers . Theres literaly 1 guild on Red Eclipse who rolls double sync premades and they are not doing that very often . It is true that theres alot of roflstomping on TRE but the truth is that most of the time it happens because theres 1 team with experienced players and 1 team with completely braindead people ( how to implement matchmaking in that? IQ test before queue?) .I experienced being in both . I do solo q alot and q in teams . Sometimes I have healer in my *premade and sometimes I dont . Most of the time its not sorc . Similar story for other pvp guilds . You can see groups of 4 (most of the time its not 4 but 2 or 3) . Their compositions are usualy random and most of the time they dont need supa dupa trinity because their skill compesates it . Yes they are friends who plays together and they are skilled . Cant blame them for both .Then we have tryhards with trinity who brings nothing but bad games .So in the end theres variety. We dont even have to speak about ToFN and Progenitor because they are pretty much dead .

Conclusion - *premade roflstomped me *is coming from US servers.

About people being bullied/harassed/insulted by others .Thats completely true .If you had a pleasure wiping a floor with them at least give them some respect for allowing you to do that and staying till the end . Sometimes they start with *premade losers* and *go ranked* and I just dont have a desire to say anything because they lost like they lost and theres always someone to reply with *ez,l2p,gg,qq* etc etc .You farmed someone so at least let him vent his frustration .You owe him that .

Edited June 23, 2016 by NENADXN

[NENADXN]

lol... I see certain guild groups, in fact.... me and a pal ended up with 6 (SIX!!!!!) of the same guild, and they were AWFUL. I just wonder if they grinding conquest, companions, I have no idea... But it was bad.

 

I realized if I ever seen 3-4 of them or god forbid 6 of them in one wz, I am leaving. It's so strange to me to see an entire group that probably queue synced be so bad and uncoordinated.

 

Anyway, I always wondered what it was like for them, now I know. They even are in voip too. Complaining probably about how bad we are losing. I bet me and my pal got blamed for the loss too.

 

This . Example 2 hours old . Got pop for voidstar ( solo queued) .Got a team of 4 and 3 more randoms . Before match started folks from that *premade* talked on ops chat .They didnt talked on english (which is rude I think) but we come from the same country so I completely understood conversation. It was something like this :

She : You said we are gonna do a flashpoint.

He :We will do flashpoint later .This is more fun.

She : Ok but tell me what to do.I have no idea what to do .

He: Just follow me and dps on my mark . Im gonna mark.

3rd guy : Im gonna guard left side , please come if I call . Dont forget me like you did last match .

4th guy : Im going with you left.

Didnt even bothered checking their gear .

Opinions now , is that steamrolling premade ?