ebbehhm Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 It would be cool if we could kick out or not recruit characters that we didn't like. I'd boot Lana so fast >_< *Kicks everyone* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mournblood Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The civilians of Zakuul are like babies, every aspect of their being is taken care of by the government and the droids. They contribute nothing to the war and are of no threat to you. Kaliyo is taking out a childish and misplaced revenge on innocent people what have nothing to do with it as well as just wanting to cause chaos and suffering for kicks. Allowing this gains you nothing and actively makes Arcann right about you. It won't rally people against Arcann, but drive them to support him against YOU. I bet there are Zakuulans who would have eventually rebelled against Arcann (he keeps getting more murderous and oppressive even of his own people) and sided with your alliance but after you casually murder a ton of them for fun? No way. He becomes the lesser of two evils and possible protection against the monstrous outlander in this case. Wrong. Not everyone on Zakuul is comatose - most are simply detached from life - and therein lies much of the problem. To your claim that Zakuulians are hapless victims caught up in the nefarious machinations of Arcann, that's not completely true. The Knights are not droids. The head of Overwatch wasn't some helpless babe. There are countless other examples of citizens and soldiers who do help keep the wheels of their society turning. You're simply over-generalizing to rationalize your position that killing those civilians was evil. It's not that black and white. What you are failing to acknowledge is that just because you allow it doesn't mean you share Kaliyo's sociopathic need to lash out. She thinks too small, and she'll never be more than an opportunistic malcontent who's only source of comfort is to inflict suffering on others. That had absolutely nothing to do with my decision to allow her petty revenge scheme to proceed. I saw it as an opportunity to bring the war to the doorstep of the Eternal Empire. Resources will be expended to repair the damage in the aftermath of that attack. As it was mentioned in the chapter, it will take months to rebuild some of that. Will it bring some of those people affected to support Arcann? Of course it will, but most either didn't care or already believed his propaganda. Nothing is lost there. But a few, even if only a handful, will open their eyes and start questioning the circumstances. Why DID the Outlander murder Valkorian if he was such a magnanimous ruler? Why DID the Outlander attack Zakuul? Why IS the Alliance standing defiantly against the Eternal Empire? Why DID Arcann have five planets destroyed and why does the entire galaxy seem to be fighting against them? Those are the ones that will be reached by the attack and wake up to the reality of the world they live in. They will be the seeds of discord that germinate within Zakuul. And in the end, they may prove instrumental to defeating Arcann and his sister. No, I've lost nothing by allowing Kaliyo to do what she did, but I've possibly gained more than can be measured. As I've said before, if allowing Kaliyo to kill a few thousand civilians helps end the war any sooner, it will ultimately save millions, perhaps billions of lives. That's Hiroshima math. Whether you agree with that or not, you can't make the argument that my reasoning was the same as Kaliyo's. As for Koth not believing Valkorion is Vitiate, it's not immaterial at all. It's the difference between what people keep accusing him of "I don't care that he's a mass murderer because he's good to MY people" and "I don't believe he's this mass murderer you claim he is. See how good he was to Zakuul? He brought peace, prosperity, was benevolent, etc...not the same guy." I always took it as he didn't believe you but wasn't going to argue because you now had the same goal (stopping the clearly evil and murderous Arcann and Vaylin). If it's just that you don't think he reacted enough to Ziost being obliterated even if he believes Valkorion wasn't involved, what do you want him to do? Just stop and cry? It's not like he goes "well who cares? **** those people." Koth never had a chance or an option to save the people of Ziost. YOU had that chance to save the people of Zakuul with nothing more than a word. You're missing my point. It doesn't matter if Koth believes Valkorian/Vitiate did the things Lana and the Oulander (and others) claim he did because Koth's narrow view of right and wrong only extends to Zakuul's Empire. Millions were murdered, and as a result, both the Republic and the Empire - traditional enemies - have formed an unprecedented Alliance to stop the Eternal Empire. If Valkorian was still around physically, the Alliance would have still formed and would still be fighting against Zakuul. Instead, it's his kids. And if Koth had enough brain matter to puzzle through that, he'd be asking himself how could such a benevolent ruler spawn such twisted and evil children. Even Senya admits that when she gives you the backstory about how her former husband changed and grew distant and cold. How she tried to get the children away from him, but they were already too far gone. But the point remains, Koth is incapable of accepting the fact that Valkorian IS Vitiate, and Valkorian's two remaining children are merely mirrors of the monster that bred them. The consequence of that, as I mentioned in my previous post, is his mutual interests will end the moment Arcann and Vaylin are dead and Valkorian/Vitiate returns. In the end, it will come full circle and we will face the Emperor again. What does matter is that when we finally have the opportunity to destroy him once and for all, Koth will stand in the way of that because he can't accept that Valkorian is the greatest evil the galaxy has ever known. To do so would also mean accepting that he benefitted from the suffering and the countless lives that ultimately paid for the pampered society enjoyed on Zakuul. ------- That all said, we've gotten a bit off topic. The OP asked why we don't like Koth, and I provided my opinion and my justification for it. You don't have to like it, and I get that you sympathize with Koth's self-righteous indignation over the civilian deaths. On my Jedi, I certainly won't allow Kaliyo to kill the civilians because it would go against everything he stands for, but even through the eyes of my Jedi, I share the same reasons as my other characters for not liking Koth. The cool thing about interactive stories is that you get to make the decision because it's YOUR story, and I'm looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaloss Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) I think there are few reasons, but the main one is that people are unable to disconnect from their previous information and put themselves into his shoes. Also no character is universally loved. Edited February 17, 2016 by Chaloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantekrist Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Wrong.... proceed. I saw it as .... Kaliyo's. You're ...... gone. But the point ....Zakuul. ------- That all said .... out. (Didn't feel like quoting the whole thing.) One of you is humanitarian and one is logician. 10 000 creds for the first one to guess correctly. Anyways, I agree with Mournblood. I didn't blow the part of the city because "Oh so hilarious to see people die" I did it because of tactical reasons. It's really not that black and white imho. Edited February 17, 2016 by dantekrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_riches Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 My main issue with Koth is his almost hero worship of Valkorian despite us telling him exactly what he did on Ziost, and what he planned to do in the Knight story he still won't have it he is too nieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefla Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (Didn't feel like quoting the whole thing.) One of you is humanitarian and one is logician. 10 000 creds for the first one to guess correctly. Anyways, I agree with Mournblood. I didn't blow the part of the city because "Oh so hilarious to see people die" I did it because of tactical reasons. It's really not that black and white imho. Even if you're trying to be strategic though, what advantage does murdering civilians give you? It would be one thing if you had the choice to blow up Arcann's weapon's factories or something and some civilians/scientists/workers got caught in the blast but weren't the target. It would still be cruel but more grey and something would be gained. What Kaliyo does just hurts innocents without any benefit and would logically only turn Zakuul's people actively against you even if they might have supported you before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslanderRebel Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Koth is a coward like Quinn. I hope to hell Bioware gives us a chance to off his butt. BTW, remember what Darth Marr said at the end of chapter 9? There's your sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Kaitou-Kid Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Even if you're trying to be strategic though, what advantage does murdering civilians give you? It would be one thing if you had the choice to blow up Arcann's weapon's factories or something and some civilians/scientists/workers got caught in the blast but weren't the target. It would still be cruel but more grey and something would be gained. What Kaliyo does just hurts innocents without any benefit and would logically only turn Zakuul's people actively against you even if they might have supported you before. The Outlander can actually explain the benefits to Koth if you choose to. It basically boiled down to "This is war, and the time they spend recovering from this attack and treating their civilians is time they won't be focusing on us." I typically go LS, even in this instance (outside of my Marauder), but this DS choice at least makes some sense. Whether the targets were high priority or not the attack is still going to undermine Zakuul's war efforts. It shows the people of Zakuul that they're not totally safe under Arcann's rule like they were with Valkorion. It makes the people fear the Outlander and what they may do in this fight against Arcann. It has its drawbacks, obviously, but these are still valid tactics that could help swing the tides in favor of the Alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImmortalLowlife Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Even if you're trying to be strategic though, what advantage does murdering civilians give you? It would be one thing if you had the choice to blow up Arcann's weapon's factories or something and some civilians/scientists/workers got caught in the blast but weren't the target. It would still be cruel but more grey and something would be gained. What Kaliyo does just hurts innocents without any benefit and would logically only turn Zakuul's people actively against you even if they might have supported you before. From the perspective of my dark5 Sith Warrior, there are no innocents. "The eternal empire declared war on US.... Their armies attacked first, and because of that.. Everybody is a target. Arkaan has already been given his only warning (back in Chapt 2) which he chose to ignore. Now he's learning what it means to cross the "wrath". I will destroy EVERYTHING you care about, then I'll destroy you. And Zakuul will know that you are the reason they must suffer! FEAR THE EMPIRES WRATH!" - Darth Lunatikk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SootyTX Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Even if you're trying to be strategic though, what advantage does murdering civilians give you? It would be one thing if you had the choice to blow up Arcann's weapon's factories or something and some civilians/scientists/workers got caught in the blast but weren't the target. It would still be cruel but more grey and something would be gained. What Kaliyo does just hurts innocents without any benefit and would logically only turn Zakuul's people actively against you even if they might have supported you before. 1) Improves moral on supporting worlds to see action taken against the enemy. Never underestimate the importance of (1) especially. During the blitz, for example, it was of utmost importance for the people of London to know that attacks were being made back against Germany. 2) Takes resources away from the opposition in rebuilding the destroyed areas. During these early stages even slowing the enemy down a little can be vital. 3) Forces a reallocation of defenses to (attempt to) prevent future instances - this one is potentially a huge drain on military power and the ability to use it offensively. This is part of insurgency 101, making the enemy defend anything and everything, forcing them to over-extend, resulting in both reduced offensive impetus and revealing weak points in key infrastructure defenses. 4) Reduces enemy moral and support for the existing regime, Not always, or even often, effective, but against a regime and culture like Zakuul could potentially be very effective, if only to further compound on points 2 and 3 above. I spent over a decade with the MoD doing military analysis. While the Outlander's actions actions may appear brutal in a US civilian centric view, they can absolutely be justified militarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dargrot Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 He is nosy. He gives childish ultimatums about doing it his way or he's leaving. He tries to take the gravestone like he owns it... It's the alliances, not his. Plenty not to like about his 10 year old personality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satanstoenail Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) I want his head on a spike at the gates of Odessen base. Where is the force lighting option every time he opens his gob? He needs to be taught a lesson that answering back to people who can incinerate him on a whim is a bad idea. No Sith would tolerate this petulant man child for one second never mind 10 bloody chapters. He has been a constant annoyance and liability for 9 of those anyway. Next time we meet it will not end well for him (Unless the game still allows him take liberties and speak to me however he likes then infuriatingly get away with it without any repercusion) Edited February 19, 2016 by satanstoenail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrewoo Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 He complains constantly, something which drives me up the wall IRL. My Sith warrior wants to piss him off at every turn, my smuggler might not care as much being he is quite the dick himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanyaCross Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 ....No, its not. The fact that he's a 'minority' character does not matter. Isn't it funny how race never seems to matter to white people? I wonder if it has to do with the fact that throughout modern history they have never wanted for characters to identify as or represent them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkHelsing Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Isn't it funny how race never seems to matter to white people? I wonder if it has to do with the fact that throughout modern history they have never wanted for characters to identify as or represent them. I'm colored myself and I can quite frankly say it doesn't matter to me if Koth is my skin tone, he's still a twit. The fact the whole 'minority' thing was brought up is simply laughable. The fact Koth is colored doesn't mean poop, his personality matters and his personality is the type where you either hate it or love it - or tolerate it, like how one tolerates a snotty child. What's next, the fact he's bisexual and into alien's is also the root of why 'white people' hate him? Good grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Isn't it funny how race never seems to matter to white people? I wonder if it has to do with the fact that throughout modern history they have never wanted for characters to identify as or represent them. Isn't it funny how the one trying to imply racisism is the only one who wants to give a damn about the colour of a characters skin? Him being a 'minority' character means nothing and it is stupid to think otherwise unless the fact that he was black was ever brought to any significance. He is black. He is an unliked character by some. So what? Also, are you assuming I'm a white guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhun Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Also, are you assuming I'm a white guy? This. I'm not white and I hate Koth like I've never hated any other character in this game. Even Quinn is less insufferable, and the man betrays me. Edited February 19, 2016 by Ruhun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Isn't it funny how race never seems to matter to white people? I wonder if it has to do with the fact that throughout modern history they have never wanted for characters to identify as or represent them. Isn't it funny how (for some people) the race card is always an instant defense for behavior that would otherwise be condemned (real or fictional)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrewoo Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Isn't it funny how (for some people) the race card is always an instant defense for behavior that would otherwise be condemned (real or fictional)? ^^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) I dont care if he was plaid with purple polkadots, hes a jackarse whatever his melanin levels are. Half Indian so dont try to brand me as "some racist white chic" Edited February 19, 2016 by XiamaraSimi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alricka Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Do people really think that ANYONE dislikes Koth because he's black?! Seriously? Suuuuuuuuure, I dislike him because he's black, yeah, that's right. I mean, it's not like he's annoying, whiny, self-righteous, glorifies a monster in your face and doesn't give a damn about what you say and tries to steal the only ship that can be an effective weapon against the Eternal Fleet. It's not because of all that, it's because his skin is a different shade than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgoldsack Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I dislike Koth because he is simply an annoying, whiny tree hugger. It is war man, got to do whatever it takes to win. Don't need any whining in war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadtechSavant Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Everyone???????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_riches Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I hate Koth because he is too much of a goodie without any real thought of the consequences I mean:- 1) the first reactor meltdown if you GO DS - the outlander has just woken up from carbonite freezing after 5 years is not doing great healthwise, has no idea really what's going on and yet the outlander is expected to stick his head out anyway. 2) the outcasts in the swamp area - Koth is too trusting of these outcasts they could have been spies or anything and he is just willing to let them board the gravestone without any real thought. 3) I can't remember exactly if or how many zakuul citizens got injured in Kalyio's plan but it's silly for him to think that people won't get hurt in the crossfire of your little war with the Eternal Empire it's going to happen and to be honest the outlanders group is the minority and as such the strategic point about resources going into repairs rather than hunting them is a perfectly valid one. That not even to mention the fact that he seems perfectly happy to want Valkorian to take back the thrown despite the fact to the rest of the galaxy he has been a genocidal maniac, but its all cool just as long as no one on Zakuul gets hurt it does not matter about anybody else in the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JianRin Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I made a bet with myself to see how quickly race would come into argument in this thread. I'd actually like to congratulate you all, it took a lot longer than I thought it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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