Anti-nerfers! Stop it!

[Leklor]

Let me write it down... "Imposing your gameplay on others isn't fun or fair".

Nor is removing their choice, right now we all have a choice, whether you like that choice or not is your choice...

You are campaigning for a lack of choice for those that do like it.

Not an improvement on the system for all of us, but to make it to your liking.

Thanks

 

Because pro-nerfs who were pushing for a maintaining of 4.0.2 companions despite a large number of people complaining they were inadequate weren't "Imposing their gameplay on others"?

If someone was unhappy with 4.0 and deciding to impose themselves some restrictions, how exactly was I "Forcing them to play my way" since I didn't impose any limits to myself.

I'm not campaigning for lack of choice, actually, I supported the option (You know what an option is? Something you toggle on or off, also know as a choice.) to restore companions to near 4.0 status for reduced rewards (Or alternatively drag them back down to 4.0.2 for increased rewards).

But yeah, I was totally opposing choice.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Leklor

[Nommaz]

Because pro-nerfs who were pushing for a maintaining of 4.0.2 companions despite a large number of people complaining they were inadequate weren't "Imposing their gameplay on others"?

If someone was unhappy with 4.0 and deciding to impose themselves some restrictions, how exactly was I "Forcing them to play my way" since I didn't impose any limits to myself.

I'm not campaigning for lack of choice, actually, I supported the option (You know what an option is? Something you toggle on or off, also know as a choice.) to restore companions to near 4.0 status for reduced rewards (Or alternatively drag them back down to 4.0.2 for increased rewards).

But yeah, I was totally opposing choice.

 

When you make a statement that I can now see you meant sarcastically without a reference its taken literally, and it looked like it was the opposite, sorry

[Leklor]

When you make a statement that I can now see you meant sarcastically without a reference its taken literally, and it looked like it was the opposite, sorry

 

Apology accepted since I wasn't exactly nice when answering and I should have been since I was just misinterpreted ^^

Edited November 25, 2015 by Leklor

[geschmonz]

Bioware listened to threads like this during the pre release beta phase.

 

We know what happened to SWTOR after it got released.

 

It failed miserably at start. Listening to feedback that challenges are important was Biowares greatest mistake.

 

They listened to that feedback for KOTFE on companions. And nearly destroyed the game with 4.0.2 for a large group of players who joined as KOTFE was on a gameplay level that adresses many players in 4.0.

 

Here is my tip to Bioware: Dont listen to those who ask for challenges. Dont give anything about challenges. Focus completely on story and immersion. Focus on decision making and consequencies. Focus on the normal player and not on those who managed to influence the game design towards challenges at start.

Edited November 25, 2015 by geschmonz

[Tarkashae]

Bioware listened to threads like this during the pre release beta phase.

 

We know what happened to SWTOR after it got released.

 

It failed miserably at start. Listening to feedback that challenges are important was Biowares greatest mistake.

 

They listened to that feedback for KOTFE on companions. And nearly destroyed the game with 4.0.2 for a large group of players who joined as KOTFE was on a gameplay level that adresses many players in 4.0.

 

Here is my tip to Bioware: Dont listen to those who ask for challenges. Dont give anything about challenges. Focus completely on story and immersion. Focus on decision making and consequencies. Focus on the normal player and not on those who managed to influence the game design towards challenges at start.

 

There is no "normal" player.

[Halinalle]

It failed miserably at start. Listening to feedback that challenges are important was Biowares greatest mistake.

 

It failed after the launch because of lack of endgame. There just wasn't enough endgame. They manged to save the game though.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Halinalle

[Pirindolo]

Pro-Nerfers! Stop it!

 

Which one is the valid demand, and which one the trolling attempt?

 

If you are not able to play the game the way you like, it's not our problem, or the devs' problem. It's yours.

 

What you consider easy, may be, and is, too difficult for many other players. You have the tools to make it way more difficult. So difficult that most of the players wouldn't be able to play it. So use them or quit. Don´t ask the devs to make the game more difficult (or tedious) for everyone, just because you want to do nothing with the tools at your disposal.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Pirindolo

[geschmonz]

It failed after the launch because of lack of endgame. There just wasn't enough endgame. They manged to save the game though.

 

.. in a game where most of the players didnt even reach endgame prior 3.0 or 4.0..

 

You seem very illusioned.

 

Contrary to other MMORPGs, SWTORs main focus is on the story and on leveling. Endgame only is meant as having something to do between content patches.

 

The demand of endgame will raise with KOTFE, as questing up is way less time consuming now (which is one of the best changes in SWTOR). People will want to play repeatable compelling content and Bioware needs to focus on endgame content even more in upcoming patches.

 

Which does not mean they should force people into groups, or gate content behind challenges. It should be the opposite.. operations and flashpoints should be both soloable (with lower powered loot than in groups), and there should be way more of them.

 

Bioware needs to add more h2 missions to give people more to do. Additionally to be able to complete flashpoints solo and in a group, they should be all available on a matchmade group finder.

 

Challenges still should be available, but only optional. They should give the best gear, but never contain exclusive content for a minority of organized players which want challenges and guild competition.

Edited November 25, 2015 by geschmonz

[Frenesi]

.. in a game where most of the players didnt even reach endgame prior 3.0 or 4.0..

 

You seem very illusioned.

 

Contrary to other MMORPGs, SWTORs main focus is on the story and on leveling. Endgame only is meant as having something to do between content patches.

 

Yep, and this is exactly why it failed back in the day. It's still in question if it can happen again.

 

As for all the "you have options" people - no, not really. I can't speak for others, but for me knowing that I handicapped myself kills the enjoyment anyway. And why exactly should I spend more effort to challenge myself, if i can simply go and find that challenge elsewhere?

 

This is the classic "don't like it - leave it" situation, I know. But it doesn't make pro-OP people more right.

[Severitus]

It failed after the launch because of lack of endgame. There just wasn't enough endgame. They manged to save the game though.

 

This...it's the same reason Wildstar failed. At the core of this problem is publishers pushing the game for release, and both devs and the publisher underestimate how quickly players will get to max level. Once they realize there's nothing to do there, they leave.

 

If games would stop releasing with no endgame content, they'd probably be fine. But, they keep rushing things out the door.

 

P.S. Same reason Destiny already has an expansion that should have been a part of the core game, but it got pushed out the door too early.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Severitus

[Halinalle]

.. in a game where most of the players didnt even reach endgame prior 3.0 or 4.0..

 

You seem very illusioned.

 

Most players got their first character to level 50 in few months and I even heard about the few that got to level 50 in Dec 2011.

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/168878/Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic_sub_numbers_already_declining__analyst.php

 

That was caused by the exact thing that makes SWTOR unique: focus on story. They didn't expect players to hit the endgame that fast. Just like they didn't expect players to reach Legacy level 50 until maybe now?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Halinalle

[geschmonz]

Most players got their first character to level 50 in few months and I even heard about the few that got to level 50 in Dec 2011.

 

Wrong. Most players did not even level their chars up to 50 before the first new content patch.

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/168878/Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic_sub_numbers_already_declining__analyst.php

 

They believe that it was about the endgame. Every endgame focused expac proved them wrong, only KOTFE managed to adress a lot of people.

 

As i said, i believe, that SWTOR failed because it just was way too time consuming and too difficulty for the majority of players.

 

I base that on the fact that KOTFE, being very more accessible and easy, adressed 33% additional subscribers. Even considering the fact KOTFE just brings in one single flashpoint, and everything else is leveling content and solo player focused.

Edited November 25, 2015 by geschmonz

[geschmonz]

This...it's the same reason Wildstar failed.

 

Wildstar failed, because the devs catered raids exclusively to a small minority. And that content was missing for the majority of players then.

Edited November 25, 2015 by geschmonz

[geschmonz]

Yep, and this is exactly why it failed back in the day. It's still in question if it can happen again.

 

No, thats just an assumption based on bias. KOTFE has no new challenging group endgame except star fortress, and managed to adress a lot of additional customers.

 

KOTFE proves you wrong.

Edited November 25, 2015 by geschmonz

[Severitus]

No, thats just an assumption based on bias. KOTFE has no new challenging group endgame except star fortress, and managed to adress a lot of additional customers.

 

KOTFE proves you wrong.

 

I think you might have misunderstood me earlier. While I think we disagree while SWTOR and Wildstar initially failed to capture a larger portion of the MMO market. I DO agree that KotFE has brought a lot of people back (that, and coupled with some of the atrocious decisions Blizzard has made lately). That's why I came back...initially because of the 12x for the story missions and because I find KotFE relatively engaging as far as story goes, and the fact that thus far, it's been accessible. The initial companion nerf reveresed that accessibility. I haven't done much since Tuesday's patch, but hopefully, they, at least, somewhat reversed the reversal.

[thewitchdoctor]

Wrong. Most players did not even level their chars up to 50 before the first new content patch.

 

If you are saying that the majority of players did not have a toon to 50 prior to ROTHC (I'm assuming you mean 'expansion' and not 'patch, i.e., 1.X), then please cite your source.

[PulseRazor]

Actually, it is 100% your responsibility to ensure you have a fun time. Here's the thing, Bioware can't make the game the "right" challenge for every person. It's just not possible. At the end of the day if you feel a game is not challenging enough you have two options, quit or make artificial challenges.

 

I don't know why every other genre of game has people who understand this but MMOs. In Mario, people play speed runs because they mastered the game. In Diablo people play on hard core mode. In DnD Online there are guilds around a one death, delete character policy.

 

The fact of the matter is there are tools to give yourself an artificial challenge. Among them are turning off some or all abilities on your companion. If players don't want to do that then that's fine, but they can't then ignore that option and try and force their desired level of difficulty on everyone else.

 

 

So does this mean they have to make it not challenging for the absolute lowest skilled player in the game, someone who only uses their basic attack, perhaps? Because this is what we have.

Edited November 25, 2015 by PulseRazor

[SGMRock]

In response to the OP. Its easier for you to make the game more difficult by taking things away you can control than it is for a less skilled player to add things. For example. A new player with not a lot of knowledge of the game will use everything they can (or know about as they might not even know all the things they can do yet.) to be able to clear content. Companions, stims, medpacks, maybe craft good gear and so on.

 

If they are just someone new F2P testing the game and find it not fun because of learning curve and dying then they leave, Bioware loses a potential player or possibly someone that would sub in the future if they did end up loving the game.

 

For Vet players you have the choice to make the game harder at any point. Don't upgrade gear as much, don't RE stuff to purples and use OP gear while leveling. Don't use all your companion skills, don't even use a companion. If you want influence for conversations with companions summon them for the convo and then put them away. Use a companion that is level 1 if you really want a companion, if they are still too strong turn off some skills. Use them in DPS mode or something where they take a lot more damage and die more often instead of using a healer one. Play with less gear on lol.

 

The point is you can always make things harder by taking things away from your self but you can't make it easier if its to hard already for the players that have everything. If you are outside standing in 20 degree F weather in your underwear freezing with a stack of winter clothes next to you are you going to put on more clothes to stay warm or are you going to pray to whatever God to turn up the heat of the planet?

 

Don't be so judgmental either, there are things in life i'm sure you are not as good at.

[Halinalle]

If you are outside standing in 20 degree F weather in your underwear freezing with a stack of winter clothes next to you are you going to put on more clothes to stay warm or are you going to pray to whatever God to turn up the heat of the planet?

 

That's what... -6 degrees Celsius? That's not even cold.

 

Story/solo content has never been difficult in this game.

Heroics have been challenging content and they still remain challenging during leveling. Of course they are faceroll easy at level cap.

 

Hardmode Flashpoints/Operations are more difficult content for those who want greater challenges.

 

Tactical Flashpoints in non-experienced group are currently the most hardcore and frustrating content in the game. Queue only if you want to suffer.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Halinalle

[Darcorn]

Your idea actually makes a lot of sense. Maybe you'd just change the amount of crystals and not credits.

 

They could do it the same way like they did the item that turned off the 12x XP

[Listing]

To all of you telling players to turn off companion abilities, dismiss them etc.. STOP!!!

 

It is not the player's responsibility to create a challenging gaming experience, it's the developers.. Otherwise it is an artificial challenge, it's not real.. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

I am not pro nerf or against nerf.. All I am saying is, I should not be forced to lose a part of the game (dismiss my companion) if I feel there's no challenge..

 

While I do agree the Devs should make content challenging, you also bare part of that burden i.e. any game made ever with a easy mode. Every gamer is not the same, and this "L2P Scrub" attitude is awful. If your attitude sucks on these forums it sucks in game, and people are genuinely shocked when others don't like to group.

 

Back to the point, people create there own challenges all the time, ask anyone who's gone to the gym......ever. YOU decide whether to bench press the bar only or to put some weight on that sucker.

[Linyivee]

To all of you telling players to turn off companion abilities, dismiss them etc.. STOP!!!

 

It is not the player's responsibility to create a challenging gaming experience, it's the developers.. Otherwise it is an artificial challenge, it's not real.. Why is that so difficult to understand?

How about just switching your companion's abilities to tank or damager? BioWare solved the healer issue from the very beginning. If you think your companion is doing too much healing, you have two other options to choose between. Healer, damager, and tank.

 

BioWare already created the solution. You just have to use a flip box.

 

Why is that so difficult to understand?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Linyivee

[Gorrdan]

I am quite sure now that most of these hardcore players pay 15 bucks a month just to 'play' forums.

[LordArtemis]

If you are saying that the majority of players did not have a toon to 50 prior to ROTHC (I'm assuming you mean 'expansion' and not 'patch, i.e., 1.X), then please cite your source.

 

Perhaps he is thinking of the Bioware comment, when they pointed out that, to their surprise, most players had not completed the Archon battle on Makeb prior to the implementation of the GSI buff kiosk.

 

I was one of those folks. Had 5 characters that had not completed Makeb myself.

[XkentuckyboyX]

All true, but players could stick to components of the game that have always been challenging instead of being interested in making solo content a struggle. The fact that heroic missions will no longer be approachable by all levels with any companion breaks the entire system for me. I don't know why I would continue to pay for this, not to mention tactical flashpoints were ruined with 4.0.

 

On one hand I know those companions were broken, on other hand, I really hate dying to pulls i'm expected to complete solo. Colicoids on Balmorra are still destroying my 42 guardian, the burst healing is just bad.

 

Heroic Missions are group content. They're marked with a +2 or +4(haven't seen any since I returned). That means it's recommended to bring 2 or 4 people with you. Before the latest buff, I was still blowing through Story content 4-6 levels above me. 5-6 levels below the story was proving to be challenging. I needed to use all my cooldowns and abilities and regen every other pull.

 

FP's are broken since they went tactical and I never find groups for Operations or Hardmode FP's due to me being a nightshift worker. So yeah, I wouldn't mind solo content to be on the challenge level of any other game on Normal mode at least. Even after the most recent companion re-buff, I'm able to roll my face across the keyboard and defeat anything solo with barely any loss to life.