Companion Balance Changes

[Satsuke]

There needs to be a genuine and wholly realized redux of their community communication. That much is certain.

 

At this point, I'm not sure what they can do short of removing the whole community team and starting fresh with new faces.

 

They've had people coming and going for years now (Musco remains the same though) and nothing has really changed. I feel like I remember a few times when they hired new folks and proclaimed how they'd start communicating more frequently and with more useful information, only to do so for a few weeks or a month before falling back into their old pattern of very sporadic communication.

 

Really disappointing.

[branmakmuffin]

We obviously set an expectation Heroic Star Fortresses were going to be similar to [Heroic 2] content, but that was not our intention.

Not surprising, since you used the same name (which is why you are changing the name).

[SGMRock]

+++++ thanks for listening to the community even though it was after the fact, at least you seem to hear our concerns this time around. I thought this was going to turn into another perma huge nerf like the slot machines.

 

I am curious if the 15% damage boost to dps and tanks is the baseline for a level 1 influence companion and if you plan to scale this up to level 50 influence or is it just 15% across the board for all levels?

 

I really feel like for the amount of time and money it takes to even get one companion up to 50 influence there should be some sort of reward for it by making them scale better in their combat, healing and tanking roles as you add more influence. There is some now but a larger amount would be nice.

 

I think its good though that you will raise it now and get feedback and see where to go from there. That's the right way to balance the game.

[DanNV]

So, I assume we can take it for granted that a lot of subs canceled and that got some senior managers attention. With Battlefront out, SWTOR is no longer all there is for SW gaming and SWTOR now has to actually compete for market share (and in the long run to survive at all.)

 

My first question is, what is going to be done to retain current subs and get back everyone who was allienated and upset by the foolish over nerfing (a known BW problem that gets repeated regularly) the point they unsubbed?

 

My second question is, what is going to be done to change how BW operates so this type of foolish design decision doesn't happen again?

[Leklor]

Numbers seems good.

I will test that tomorrow. I expect to be able to solo most Heroic with little effort (AKA not AFKing but not having to nervously check every detail at every second) but have to group up for SFs.

The ideal solution for Star Fortresses, really, would have been to put the Heroic version into the Group Finder and move the quest completion goal to the solo mode.

Basically, by blowing up the EPHEMERIS droid, you "shut down" the Star Fortress, trapping the Zakuul troops inside, and the planetside resistance force is now free to operate with minimal trouble (No more Skytroopers/IE Walkers Orbital Drops) while the Heroic version is the "Have fun storming the Castle" part. The Zakuul invaders are entrenched in their SF and you have to destroy it as a bonus.

That way, the companions linked to the SFs are easier to acquire and the quest isn't bogged down with unwelcome group content (Remember that in the context of the "Story Arc: Star Fortresses", there is still only one Outlander.) and can be completed alone. Makes the prospect of repeating it on alts far more appealing.

I won't resub right now, I have other games to play but I'll come back around Chapter XI to XII (If the changes are good, as I said, I want to test first)

[tomius]

One other request is equal rewards.

 

Please don't "punish" players by their choice of difficulty for example a solo content should still pay out the same any other difficulty level.

... er nope

 

 

EDIT: its not about punishing story mode players, its about rewarding people for doing harder content. Big difference

Edited November 23, 2015 by tomius

[branmakmuffin]

My first question is, what is going to be done to retain current subs and get back everyone who was allienated and upset by the foolish over nerfing (a known BW problem that gets repeated regularly) the point they unsubbed?

Who cares?

[DanNV]

At this point, I'm not sure what they can do short of removing the whole community team and starting fresh with new faces.

 

They've had people coming and going for years now (Musco remains the same though) and nothing has really changed. I feel like I remember a few times when they hired new folks and proclaimed how they'd start communicating more frequently and with more useful information, only to do so for a few weeks or a month before falling back into their old pattern of very sporadic communication.

 

Really disappointing.

 

I expect the problem is the muzzle put on the community team by the design teams. The community team can't talk about anything that isn't preapproved but takes the heat for it.

 

IMO, There are managers at BW who need to go back to coding or flipping burgers. They certainly aren't good at making decisions.

[Satsuke]

So, I assume we can take it for granted that a lot of subs canceled and that got some senior managers attention. With Battlefront out, SWTOR is no longer all there is for SW gaming and SWTOR now has to actually compete for market share (and in the long run to survive at all.)

 

My first question is, what is going to be done to retain current subs and get back everyone who was allienated and upset by the foolish over nerfing (a known BW problem that gets repeated regularly) the point they unsubbed?

 

My second question is, what is going to be done to change how BW operates so this type of foolish design decision doesn't happen again?

 

Battlefront isn't much of a threat. Totally different genre and it's largely pulling in console (PS4) players rather than PC players. Not to mention it's also an EA property and they're running cross promotions with it (SWTOR inserts in physical copies of Battlefront 3).

 

Not to mention that Battlefront 3 lacks any kind of meaningful stickyness for long term engagement outside of a few DLC dumps.

 

As to your second question, probably nothing. This has been a tradition since launch, so I can't imagine it changing any time soon : /

[DanNV]

Who cares?

 

Anyone smart enough to realize you need those people to pay the bills and keep the game going.

[foxxecho]

This is not directed at anyone specific and there is definitely merit to the "companions being too powerful create no challenge" school of thought, but I used to almost exclusively level/play the base game without a companion, and I just never see this even mentioned as an option.

 

Is it a RP thing or something?

[hadoken]

Anyone smart enough to realize you need those people to pay the bills and keep the game going.

 

Oh no, they really don't. They'll be fine, the Cartel Market still functions

[murgatroid]

sounds very reasonable. cant wait to test it. and Thanks,

[Thoronmir]

Let me try to explain. Sometime developers have this myopia where they can't understand the OCD tendencies of their playerbase. So in this case, while there is NO indication that there is ANY need to max out your Alliance. Nor is there ANY indication that people have to rush to do so. Nevertheless, players feel compelled to do so and will do things they might not even like to accomplish the task.

 

So from the devs perspective, they seen the Heroic 2s as optional content. They'll give you a nice reward, but there's no reason to grind them until your eyes bleed. From many player's perspective they just see that they haven't hit Alliance level 20 and must do so at all costs. I imagine that there are people out there that would go so far as to say they are "forced" to do Heroic 2s.

First, I should confess that I have not played SWTOR at all since right before the release of 4.0 (also the last time I posted on these Forums). I have kept my game updated, and I logged into all hundred-odd of my characters to clear their mailboxes and to get a glimpse at the new incarnation of hell EA/BW has visited upon my inventories (thanks for deleting all those mods in my gear). But no character of mine has left my Nar Shaddaa fortress. So, yeah, I'm judging without having played.

 

Second, in anticipation of those who might wonder ... no, I did not cancel my subscription. I won't cancel my subscription. It's fifteen measly dollars each month. Without trying to sound unnecessarily arrogant, $15 is an insignificant pittance to me ... it's less than the cost of the cigars I will smoke while watching the football game tonight. Plus, I still have friends who play and, who knows, maybe someday ...? So, no, I won't be voting with my wallet ... just my time.

 

Third, if EA/BW has gated any of the story behind H2s ... if they have gated developing companions behind H2s ... if developing companions affects the story (e.g., you must have X influence with a companion or he/she dies somewhere along the way) ... if, in this brave new world of "plot-centric" SWTOR, any of the content required to fully experience said plot is gated behind H2s ... then, yes, we are required to play them.

 

If none of those circumstances exist, then H2s are just more group content ... which I don't need and about which I won't complain.

[XiamaraSimi]

Hello Micheal,

First I would like to say that I appreciate your time out of your busy schedule to address the concern about the nerfing of the companions and while I think all of us understand why you did it because of the Heriocs 2+ I am glad to see that you guys didn't take the game aspect into consideration as the storyline is concerned. That takes a good person to admit that mistake and while I am okay with the idea that our companions will get a 48% raise in healing there is one thing that concerns me. As I posted before in the feedback I noticed Lana heals better than my choice companion Theron. Lana is at a lvl 10 influence and Theron is 27 or 28 the last I looked. That concerns me quite a bit that a lower influenced companion out ranks a higher influenced companion. How do you plan to address this issue?

 

I was wondering this myself. It seems that people/things that were DPS pre-kotfe tend to... suck at healing in kotfe..

 

Theron tends to just stop healing and stand there picking his nose/occasionally pew pew pewing mobs. He will be at full health so its not like hes stopping healing me to heal himself, and hes usually two feet away from me so Its not a Line of Sight issue.

 

*EDIT* Both Theron and Akk Dog are Influence level 50

 

Akk Dog does the same thing in heal stance as well, instead of healing he runs up and starts chewing on mobs...

 

That aside, I appreciate the post, and the apology was lots of bonus points ^_^

 

*EDIT 2* Also This:

 

I don't understand why they can't make the Solo Star Fortress progress the Alliance story and have the Heroic Star Fortress be renamed Flashpoint just for the extra loot and challenge. BW said that they wouldn't lock story behind group content anymore and while, yes, technically a very skilled player with the proper class (ie, NOT a pure DPS character) can solo them, a lot of players will still be left out. (FWIW, I have my husband who can group with me and we can complete these, so it doesn't matter to me-in B4 "Get a group, you Filthy, Anti-Social Casual!")

 

Or, as a compromise, do what you did when SoR first came out: GSI droid for one run through (per fortress). If you want to farm it, get a group or gear up properly, and be very very good at your (non-DPS) class. But to progress the story, having those locked behind mandatory group content goes against what BW had stated when they announced KotFE, which was to appeal to solo players.

Edited November 23, 2015 by XiamaraSimi

[DanNV]

Battlefront isn't much of a threat. Totally different genre and it's largely pulling in console (PS4) players rather than PC players. Not to mention it's also an EA property and they're running cross promotions with it (SWTOR inserts in physical copies of Battlefront 3).

 

Well, I've been fiddling with Battlefront instead of running dailies and so on in SWTOR. Haven't started any new characters on KOTFE either. Haven't finished it on any of the others I had started KOTFE on, either. Bases on the OP, I expect I am far from the only one. Only a sharp decline in financial projections is going to get this kind of response out of BW. Forum feedback gets nothing or they would have fixed the horrendously huge over-nerf on the slot machine. Nope, the financial projects went in the toilet and management had a panic attack.

[branmakmuffin]

Anyone smart enough to realize you need those people to pay the bills and keep the game going.

And who cares if the game keeps going? It will shut down eventually and we'll all find other things to do. You can trust me when I say it will be of no importance in your life whatsoever.

[_NovaBlast_]

... er nope

 

 

EDIT: its not about punishing story mode players, its about rewarding people for doing harder content. Big difference

 

and why should people who enjoy "harder "content be any different than those that don't?

 

Does your Epeen need that much validation that you think just becase you enjoy harder content that makes you "better" than someone who doesn't?.

 

Personally if i wanted to I could probably pass all the hard content if i put my mind to it . I simply don't because i don't ENJOY it. and that is what a video game is for.

 

I fail to see why many people cant seem to grasp such a simple concept.

[Neoforcer]

Hello, everyone.

 

My name is Michael Backus, and I’m the Lead Designer for Star Wars: The Old Republic. I wanted to take a minute to apologize for the recent Companion changes and address combat balance. I wanted to do so personally because as fans of Star Wars: The Old Republic and our customers, we cherish your feedback and value all of you, and I feel you deserve to hear this information directly.

 

May the Force be with you,

Michael Backus

Lead Designer

 

 

Michael Backus i have to say thank you for the first time since beta of this game the devs have done things that have not been well received by the player base. For the first time ever to see you all apologize to us means a lot as we have been asking for this for a while on many of issue it is a big step. But people can over come if we meet half way. I know some one that has a passion for the games they make to come out and say they are sorry is not either easy or some thing we humans want to admit to doing. I give you a hart felt thank you for doing so and would give advise keeping things you do unless it to hide story say the hole kotfe story line just angers the population and i would love to see swtor keep growing.

 

Be transparent and discuss things with us not just here but use every thing you guys have twitter facebook reddit. To get are opinions then do the population a favor test it on PTS we will all help you get things right.

 

if you just ask us to help we love this game as much as you do. Don't fear letting us know you can say this is our idea on a nerf numbers let us test and know if it is on the right track. We will give advice on these nerf and not hide behind silence it does not work well. Some will get mad there class or this is getting nerfed but with the population backing you up things like that will be small because after a while the person that is mad will let it go if it is not a nuke nerf and comes on the side of testing thing to make it right and play able. The problem with most MMOs is people get the nuke it hard and fast from the Dev team and it pisses every one off that when they come to a new game they bring the baggage here with them form that.

 

Be for once on the cutting edge of the game market and work with the fans to make some thing that other game go wow.

 

I understand this silence has been caused by some players that seem to think threats gets things done. But i suggest Eric to be the one communicating changes as he seems to have a tough as nail kinda skin when it comes to us all. Keeping the players in the loop we would of all told you a 50% nerf to comps would of been perfect before you did it. Don't hide the numbers we as players should all under stand you are not going to please every one of us.

 

But we all can agree if we are to go forward we need to communicate with you guys and please i implore you add some new play style and maps to PVP with each new raid content that you add. Both PVE and PVP need love and you can do both at the same time it will go far if we see you guys make a effort..

 

Make you content rotation look some thing like new chapters then new pve raids and new pvp maps and game play. So we can see new stuff in between chapters. You would be amassed at how many people would come play this game if you did so....

[Alssaran]

Anyone smart enough to realize you need those people to pay the bills and keep the game going.

 

And would you like to explain to us why any additional changes to the game should be made to entice them to come back? If they left because of the companion nerf, they will return once they get adjusted again. They'll try it out and like it, or they will hate it.

 

There is no reason, not even when arguing about survival of the game, which justifies taking additional steps to entice them back when the reason they left for in the first place is reverted. Everything else would just result in those people trying to get more and more unreasonable rewards for just returning to the game.

 

There will be a few people who are genuinely upset that the old companions aren't completely back. Looking at the (subjective) evidence of reddit and this forum, nine out of ten people seem fine with the proposed solution on paper.

 

tl;dr: They will return if they like it, they will find other reasons to leave if it isn't all they want anyway. Why bother trying to appeal to a negative nay-sayer? They wanted a companion buff, they get it. Everything beyond trying to get companions just right is just blackmailing for rewards.

[todestrieb]

Much appreciated! Thank you!

[Uruare]

These changes look like they'll move companions out of the trash and into a good place again, but none of that does anything to address the most significant issue I have.

 

I know full well neither I nor anyone will ever have anything explained to us about this, but after seeing this wild see-saw of a 27 day utterly not-accidental buff be chased by what looks very much like the 4.0.2 Panic Nerf from Hell, I'm just not feeling any confidence here.

 

What the flaming hell happened? How did a design team that was awake and qualified go from 4.0.0 design to 4.0.2 design?

 

I'll respect that you took the floor personally to address this, Mike, but as a senior project manager in a very different field, I absolutely feel qualified to at least offer the pointed reminder that consumer trust can take years to build and seconds to lose.

 

After being jerked around like this, and despite those changes looking good on their own merits, I don't know if I'll ever sub or even play this much again.

 

I expected a nerf after seeing how crazy strong 4.0.0 put companions up to being, but I expected the general direction to have been intended and that nerfs would be incremental adjustments to what had seemed to be a clear and apparent design decision. In other words, I had presumed that you guys knew what you were doing and, whether it was anyone else's vision or not, you at least had a goal and a plan.

 

Nope. Seems apparent now that you folks were just throwing things at the wall to see what stuck and what bounced six times and smashed a window out. I guess that's a way to do things, but it's not one I can respect and trust to provide me with a consistent service I can depend on being reasonably able to find something to enjoy in.

 

You sawed the wings off the plane to make it lighter. If I get busy at work for a month, what will I come back to find?

 

At this juncture, I dare not guess.

 

I don't work in game design, but I almost feel sick imagining something like this happening in any project of mine.

 

What the heck happened to iterative design and gap analysis? Task analysis of consumer use and application data takes a lot of guesswork out of parsing useful info out of existing and emergent consumer data.

 

In any case, I'll look at it when the patch goes live. I'll give it a burn test. My sub doesn't run out for several weeks yet anyway, so why not.

 

But take it into consideration that my trust is gone.

 

I sincerely doubt that I'm the only one that's not eager to feel jacked around and fooled twice like this.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Uruare

[Diefenbaker]

It's like the, "We never expected players to hit level 50 within days/weeks of launch. We'd expected them to take 3-5 months!" from back at launch.

 

If they aren't fully aware of the habits of their playerbase by now then that's entirely their fault. It should be painfully obvious by now that a good chunk of their players, especially the most vocal ones, are going to be grinding content like this when presented with it. Especially when it's the only way to really "progress" in the months between the end of chapter 9 and when chapter 10 will eventually launch.

I'm 100% convinced it's not just their playerbase.

 

You can observe this habit in any playerbase in any MMORPG on the market right now. Saying that players behaving in SWTOR like they do in any other MMORPG surprised them makes me question their sense of reality and leads me to conclude that they're absolutely ignorant about player behavior.

 

Go into WoW, players behave like that. Go into LOTRO, same thing. TSW, same thing. It's everywhere like that.

 

For me this is more of a "Oooooookay.... What else did you or will you mess up?"

 

Tbh, if I wasn't as invested in SWTOR as I am, I would likely leave now, because this doesn't really bode well.

 

The last I saw something like this was in Tabula Rasa, how did that work out? TR is dead, that's how it worked out.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Diefenbaker

[Zharik]

<snip>

Emergent Gameplay

[Heroic 2]s. Before Knights of the Fallen Empire, Heroics were not very utilized content. Most players ignored them after doing them once. So when we highlighted areas of improvement for our leveling experience, we knew we wanted to make Heroics sexier. We wanted players to have good reason to go do them, but also give players a reason to join up with their friends. What we failed to realize was how much most of you would enjoy them, but also how frequently you would engage in them. [Heroic 2]s were initially meant to be challenging content for what we would say is an “average” player. If you had good gear and really knew how to play well, you could solo them but you’d still have to pay attention to what you were doing. If you had expected gear for your level and didn’t think of yourself as that skilled, you’d probably find a friend to join you so you could both reap the rewards together.

 

With Companions being the power level they were, “everyone” began enjoying them. And that was the point that we hadn’t realized. By reducing Companion power, we took that away from a lot of you. You could still engage in [Heroic 2]s and beat them, but they had become arduous, even grindy to many players.

<snip>

Please do not take this the wrong way, but you are making quite an assumption using the word "enjoying". I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong, but you are making an assumption. You track what your players are doing, but you have no idea if they are in fact enjoying how they are spending their time. Just because a player does something in game, (even repeatedly) that does not necessarily mean that they are enjoying it. I have repeatedly gifted my companions on many toons to higher Influence levels. Do NOT assume that I enjoyed it simply because I have spent hours (not an exaggeration) doing it. Sometimes the reward is worth the effort and grinding the Heroics for Conquest Points/Common Data Crystals/Credits/Alliance Crates makes it worth doing. Now if you want to see if it is considered fun take away most of those rewards and see how many players do it because they "enjoy it".

 

Now a bit more on topic:

There are so many variables when balancing a game, and many of the things you listed are not in your control as a developer (player skill/experience, computer specs, play style). The rub is when you take those variables into account, you now have too broad of a range to easily balance things to accommodate everyone. Outliers will always be left in the cold. The very top players will call whatever you do "too easy", and the very casual players will give up and call your game "too hard". Don't try to please them, all you'll end up doing is making your CORE PLAYER BASE angry/frustrated.

 

So do not make it so easy that a tank character (with no shield equipped, wrong stance/cell, gear 30 levels out of date, etc) and his tank companion can win without any real threat of dying. Bad players should not succeed. Also do not make it so one mistake in your rotation will cause you to not do enough DPS and you die. Top players should faceroll average content, and yes be bored while doing it (you've put in many hours to get to "top player" status, you *should* be bored with average content).

 

The rest of us though, should be sufficiently challenged by average content. Not too hard where you need a friend's help for solo content, nor anything that cannot be completed in all 3 specs for each adv class (I'm looking at you sage healer end of chap 3 at launch). Also not too easy that multiple, horrid mistakes don't punish you (and make you learn to be a better player) with a death (stand in stupid for ever, don't interrupt an ability that takes 6 seconds to cast and is called "I WIN", burn yourself completely out of energy, etc). If you can accomplish this paragraph, you'll have players that enjoy the game.

[Nekobaghira]

Thank you!