Toxic Atmosphere

[FenyxSprig]

It's all because of nazis.

 

There, does that mean the screaming at each other is done now?

[ryoutou]

My question is pretty simple: why wouldn't these 'hardcore' players simply disengage some of their comp's abilities or not even use them?

 

I've answered this before, but I will again. First I will give you an analogy. Golf.

 

First off I'm a very mediocre golfer, high 80s, low 90s on my home course. But I had to put in a fair amount of work to get there as I have absolutely no ability at the game. And I have a brew and tell lies around 18 holes, because thats the sort of crazies I hang out with.

 

Now if I showed up one day and the holes had went from normal size to the size of hoola hoops, we'd laugh and have fun with that. Maybe even the second day. After a week or two though, yeah we'd find creative ways to make the game more challenging, I guess. But all of those would be strange and artificial, and you'd be reminded over and over that the game had sort of been made a joke.

 

When you brought someone to visit your course, you'd eventually start cringing. And if you had a serious bone in your body about the game - you'd eventually, no matter how easy going you are - you'd say something to the course manager.

 

And thats where a lot of us are.

 

Yes, I put my companion away some. I stopped gearing myself altogether. I stopped messing with cooldowns of any kind - took them off my bars.

 

But the game was broken easy. Hoola hoop sized holes. Virtually impossible to die, even against very tough mobs. It isn't even about a challenge it became about non god mode. I mean, I never, ever, ever, ever died - no matter how afkish I became.

 

I'm no masochist. Hell a part of me hates golf, ruins a good walk. But I don't want the holes the size of hoola hoops.

 

Because I don't I'm disrespectful to all the folks that do? Come on.

 

Way I see it, keep Treek semi OP. Yeah, it costs just a smidge of cash to go buy her...make her cheaper is fine by me. But if you want ultra easy mode have to have an Ewok and know, know you are deliberately taking it easy. Seems fair enough to me. (I'm semi joking here)

 

Really though - I never have understood why folks would want to grind heroic Star Fortresses. They just aren't that compelling. After maybe, it was a lot harder for me anyway. But its the same thing over and over.

 

And I don't think anyone else loves it either.

 

Rather, the collectors are collecting.

 

Some want money and things to decorate their stronghold. Some want L50 companions. All L50 companions. On every toon, all 10 of them. Or something.

 

And so they want to be able to grind to get that.

 

And I say, make those things the collectors want easier to get. But don't make the holes on the greens the size of hoola hoops for the folks that want to play golf, you know? Conflating too things, and thats the root of the problem - in one man's opinion.

 

No anger, no grr, just my honest rambling answer to your question.

[Makillda]

I've answered this before, but I will again. First I will give you an analogy. Golf.

 

First off I'm a very mediocre golfer, high 80s, low 90s on my home course. But I had to put in a fair amount of work to get there as I have absolutely no ability at the game. And I have a brew and tell lies around 18 holes, because thats the sort of crazies I hang out with.

 

Now if I showed up one day and the holes had went from normal size to the size of hoola hoops, we'd laugh and have fun with that. Maybe even the second day. After a week or two though, yeah we'd find creative ways to make the game more challenging, I guess. But all of those would be strange and artificial, and you'd be reminded over and over that the game had sort of been made a joke.

 

When you brought someone to visit your course, you'd eventually start cringing. And if you had a serious bone in your body about the game - you'd eventually, no matter how easy going you are - you'd say something to the course manager.

 

And thats where a lot of us are.

 

Yes, I put my companion away some. I stopped gearing myself altogether. I stopped messing with cooldowns of any kind - took them off my bars.

 

But the game was broken easy. Hoola hoop sized holes. Virtually impossible to die, even against very tough mobs. It isn't even about a challenge it became about non god mode. I mean, I never, ever, ever, ever died - no matter how afkish I became.

 

I'm no masochist. Hell a part of me hates golf, ruins a good walk. But I don't want the holes the size of hoola hoops.

 

Because I don't I'm disrespectful to all the folks that do? Come on.

 

Way I see it, keep Treek semi OP. Yeah, it costs just a smidge of cash to go buy her...make her cheaper is fine by me. But if you want ultra easy mode have to have an Ewok and know, know you are deliberately taking it easy. Seems fair enough to me. (I'm semi joking here)

 

Really though - I never have understood why folks would want to grind heroic Star Fortresses. They just aren't that compelling. After maybe, it was a lot harder for me anyway. But its the same thing over and over.

 

And I don't think anyone else loves it either.

 

Rather, the collectors are collecting.

 

Some want money and things to decorate their stronghold. Some want L50 companions. All L50 companions. On every toon, all 10 of them. Or something.

 

And so they want to be able to grind to get that.

 

And I say, make those things the collectors want easier to get. But don't make the holes on the greens the size of hoola hoops for the folks that want to play golf, you know? Conflating too things, and thats the root of the problem - in one man's opinion.

 

No anger, no grr, just my honest rambling answer to your question.

 

Very nice analogy. Pretty much sums up my position on this issue. Well done.

[YankeeDelta]

I understand players posting to say "I like this change" or "I dislike this change".

 

What I don't understand are the players who feel they have the right to tell other players that the way they enjoy the game or the way they used to enjoy the game, is wrong. Can you imagine random strangers acting that way when face-to-face with someone?

 

I've also been surprised, honestly, once you cut through all the BS, at the number of players whose position is "I support this change because I enjoy grouping, and the only way I can get groups is if players are forced into the group queues".

 

It makes me wonder to what extent the current game model is actually enabling toxic players by providing them with an unending stream of instant, disposable teammates. Unfortunately for Bioware, these instant disposable teammates are people, who are tired of paying for this 'privilege' and who would prefer grouping with an AI companion to yet another immature, toxic player.

[ryoutou]

It makes me wonder to what extent the current game model is actually enabling toxic players by providing them with an unending stream of instant, disposable teammates. Unfortunately for Bioware, these instant disposable teammates are people, who are tired of paying for this 'privilege' and who would prefer grouping with an AI companion to yet another immature, toxic player.

 

I've seen a lot of forum posters say lately that they "don't want to be force to group" and a lot of them even go on to say nasty things about the people in the thread, how they hate having to group with "people like you" and so on. Go over the top saying ugly things and so on.

 

Takes me aback, really. They must have had some really nasty experiences in grouping.

 

And I think to myself, my goodness - anyone who draws me in any group, why. I'm polite, I'm helpful - I know how to play pretty well. Plus I play a tank class, with a tank build and have a protector sort of personality.

 

I will literally shield you from the bad. Will literally put myself between it and strangers.

 

And I listen to nasty, ugly rants about "people like me" and I conclude - people are unreasonable.

[ZanyaCross]

I've answered this before, but I will again. First I will give you an analogy. Golf.

 

-snip-

 

I wish I could pin a medal on you for that post.

[Death-Hammer]

 

Takes me aback, really. They must have had some really nasty experiences in grouping.

 

I have tried grouping several times in this game over the 3 years I have played it. Every time I have tried to do group content I was berated, called every name in the book, eventually kicked out of the group and generally treated like trash. Why was I treated so badly ? because I would attack the wrong enemy. One time I was treated like that because I started a fight as a dps, and what kind of idiot and piece of trash must I be to start a fight...to attack a npc as a dps. I didn't know all the fights, so I was treated like garbage. This despite the fact I told them every time I didn't know what I was doing and needed to learn.

 

I will never ever play group content in this game again. I will quit playing completely and find another game to play before I will do group content. This is the politest I can possibly write this , so I hope it answers your question some.

[Neoforcer]

What I don't understand are the players who feel they have the right to tell other players that the way they enjoy the game or the way they used to enjoy the game, is wrong. Can you imagine random strangers acting that way when face-to-face with someone?

 

They do this because they feel the need to make other not have fun on content that is not meant to be for just them it is meant for the hole game. And while i can solo it like han solo level 10 and up with low level rank and gear can not do it in a group with 2 comps as they don't have cd like 65 do scaled....

[YankeeDelta]

I've answered this before, but I will again. First I will give you an analogy. Golf.

 

First off I'm a very mediocre golfer, high 80s, low 90s on my home course. But I had to put in a fair amount of work to get there as I have absolutely no ability at the game. And I have a brew and tell lies around 18 holes, because thats the sort of crazies I hang out with.

 

Now if I showed up one day and the holes had went from normal size to the size of hoola hoops, we'd laugh and have fun with that. Maybe even the second day. After a week or two though, yeah we'd find creative ways to make the game more challenging, I guess. But all of those would be strange and artificial, and you'd be reminded over and over that the game had sort of been made a joke.

 

Powering up solo play so that it dominates solo content doesn't seem at all to me like a golf course creating hoola hoop sized golf holes.

 

First, overpowered companions weren't affecting end game raiding at all. So in your analogy the golf course would have to have at least two different courses: a championship course and an amateur course.

 

Now let's say that the golf course had a rule for their amateur course that required players to either shoot below an 80, or else play the course with a group. That was pre 4.0.

 

Now imagine the golf course changed their rules, so that players could apply a handicap, any handicap, to their score, and thus choose to now play the amateur course solo, without a group. That was 4.0.

 

I understand why it would drive some players crazy that amateur players could now give themselves a 40 handicap and play the amateur course solo, but I don't understand why the golf course would reverse this policy if the policy brought in a huge number of new members.

[Velgar]

I've seen a lot of forum posters say lately that they "don't want to be force to group" and a lot of them even go on to say nasty things about the people in the thread, how they hate having to group with "people like you" and so on. Go over the top saying ugly things and so on.

 

Takes me aback, really. They must have had some really nasty experiences in grouping.

 

And I think to myself, my goodness - anyone who draws me in any group, why. I'm polite, I'm helpful - I know how to play pretty well. Plus I play a tank class, with a tank build and have a protector sort of personality.

 

I will literally shield you from the bad. Will literally put myself between it and strangers.

 

And I listen to nasty, ugly rants about "people like me" and I conclude - people are unreasonable.

 

You would appear to a pleasant exception to rule. In most MMOs I have played I have found PUG groups have at least one toxic to downright nasty member about 50% of the time. Final Fantasy 14 was a shining exception where every group I got was pleasant folks. Not sure what is different there, some were fail groups, but all were polite and nice. But this game and WoW I have gotten far too many groups with at least one total jerk, it is off putting and makes me prefer soloing with a companion to grouping.

[ryoutou]

Grouping definitely takes a certain dynamic. I think it is made a lot easier with voicecomms for a newcomer to it, and it would probably be very confusing and challenging to folks with no experience at it. I can sympathize.

 

Heck, some tutorials and guides might be pretty helpful.

 

As a tank, I can understand the frustration of dps pulling mobs. Or people going afk.

 

Mostly, for being rude. Rudeness is the thing.

 

But as a fellow who has friends he met online in games like these that span 20 years, who is godfather to children of fellas he met online in these games....the rare jewel who is polite, kind, and a help to you...those folks are worth finding. It is the real magic of these games.

 

But I'm wandering off topic, and I understand many folks aren't interested in the social aspect. I get it

[Shaji]

Compared to other (more popular) games this community isnt that toxic but ofc you have your stereotype angry teenager and 40+ year basement dweller spreading their hatred on the forums.

 

Games have changed for the last 5+ years and so did the player .

It is perfectly understandable for someone to choose not to look for a group for 10min for trivial things to do - its not the year 2010 anymore where mmo was the big thing and ppl were willing to socialise like there is no tomorrow.

 

Other than that, its the internet .. every sane and well thought argument gets countered by 3 bored ppl lurking the forums. What do you expect?

[branmakmuffin]

You must be

Not to mention new to any kind of internet message board system.

[RobNightfall]

You must be

 

Definitely this. Regardless of which good or bad or just plain average idea of BW's they're defending, the white knights always start with a personal attack. And they bring the rest of us down to their level all too often.

Edited November 19, 2015 by RobNightfall

[LogunOne]

usually, most agree to disagree, genuine concerns vs skills...

 

But im noticing a trend here; The white knights defending BW latest patch are mostly taking personal shots at people posting their anger at BW over changes done in a patch. downright ugly and personal... Now im new to these forums, but im also noticing the lack of moderators and PR from BW... Usually reminding people to keep it clean and on topic? which leaves me to believe that BW encourages this?

 

I've rarely seen the community so divided, and each time i did see it, the game was inches away from disappearing altogether? And i blame BW for this mess...

 

Maybe i am mistaken, maybe since only subs can post that BW feels no need to moderate?

 

I don’t get the why there has to be a community division here, normally no one likes nerfs. So let’s just try to be a little more epithetic to those that feel there enjoyment of the game has been impacted.

And the next time your class gets a nerf I won’t go ….ne-ner-ne-ner …ne-ner …cry baby

[TUXs]

usually, most agree to disagree, genuine concerns vs skills...

 

But im noticing a trend here; The white knights defending BW latest patch are mostly taking personal shots at people posting their anger at BW over changes done in a patch. downright ugly and personal... Now im new to these forums, but im also noticing the lack of moderators and PR from BW... Usually reminding people to keep it clean and on topic? which leaves me to believe that BW encourages this?

 

I've rarely seen the community so divided, and each time i did see it, the game was inches away from disappearing altogether? And i blame BW for this mess...

 

Maybe i am mistaken, maybe since only subs can post that BW feels no need to moderate?

You're 100% right. There is a group of people who can get away with anything. The rules here do not apply to all of us equally...and yes, there is an extremely toxic atmosphere here because of it.

[Eillack]

There are no mods here, basically. I'd say avoid the forums OP, this isn't even when it's "bad."

[TUXs]

I don’t get the why there has to be a community division here, normally no one likes nerfs. So let’s just try to be a little more epithetic to those that feel there enjoyment of the game has been impacted.

The people you're speaking of, they don't care. They don't care if you play or go. They don't care about anything but themselves. I agree with you, but the people who you're speaking of, lack any ability to see beyond their own selfishness.

[Frenesi]

Powering up solo play so that it dominates solo content doesn't seem at all to me like a golf course creating hoola hoop sized golf holes.

 

First, overpowered companions weren't affecting end game raiding at all. So in your analogy the golf course would have to have at least two different courses: a championship course and an amateur course.

 

Now let's say that the golf course had a rule for their amateur course that required players to either shoot below an 80, or else play the course with a group. That was pre 4.0.

 

Now imagine the golf course changed their rules, so that players could apply a handicap, any handicap, to their score, and thus choose to now play the amateur course solo, without a group. That was 4.0.

 

I understand why it would drive some players crazy that amateur players could now give themselves a 40 handicap and play the amateur course solo, but I don't understand why the golf course would reverse this policy if the policy brought in a huge number of new members.

 

Becouse it's not healthy for the game to have population of only, let's call things for what they are, noobs.

 

There are a lot of people who do group content in this game. Maybe they aren't a majority, but they are still a big fraction, and sure as hell they are mostly subs.

 

You seem to believe that the group content exists completely separately from solo game. But that's wrong. People leave. Constantly. It's not the question of game being good or bad, it's just question of people having enough of it and moving on. Where do new people come from to replace them? That's right. Solo game.

 

And the way solo game worked before this "nerf", it provided group content with unending stream of horrible, absolutely clueless noobs. They know absolutely nothing of the game, becouse they never were forced to learn it. So they come, shining, into realm of Ops and FPs. And get horribly rekt - becouse they don't have a slightest idea how to play the game. And when people start calling them out for that, such noobs feel like they are being mistreated, and either leave grouping forever, or proceed to grief it, shielding behind calling others "elitist snobs". And that kills group content for entire population.

 

You got called names for being bad? Well, that's not a good thing, sure. But ask yourself, what if, while playing solo, you were forced to learn game a bit more? Maybe, if you came into group a bit more educated, it wouldn't have ended this way?

 

Becouse as much as I'm up to explaining things to new player, even I sometimes have enough of it. And I was coming close to this state.

[hadoken]

Quesh.

 

Now THAT's a toxic atmosphere.

[Wayshuba]

While I will not comment on my personal feelings about the companion changes, I feel I'd like to add something regarding the lack of response to customer reaction.

 

A bit of background on my involvement in the game first to help frame this: I joined the SWTOR forums in 2009, was involved in the beta test for many months before launch, pre-ordered the game, and subbed for six months right off the bat at launch. Additionally, as a Senior Officer in a large guild that has been together for over 12 years through several MMOs, I convinced a large portion of the guild to give SWTOR a whirl.

 

Fast forward a couple months after launch and BioWare is having a guild summit with Guild Leaders (of which ours attended due to size of our guild). They listen to the comments at the summit, show the guild leaders a good time, and then... do nothing with the feedback that was received. As my Guild Leader once said, they talked a good game but it feels like they never had any intention of listening to the players.

 

Well, we all know what happened in very short order after that - don't we?

 

At our peak, we had 247 active members. On a slow night we had 30-40 players on and an average night had 60-70 players. With the lack of response to the Guild Summit, all but TWO players left.

 

So after a three year hiatus, I came back to give things a try again, then convinced the Guild Leader to do it, and we have been pulling members back in - all of them subscribers.

 

Now this happens with the companions and it appears BioWare hasn't learned their lesson after all this years of why their customer base dropped so rapidly in the first six months of launch. In case they read this, I will tell you what every single one of our guild members said - You didn't listen to the players and were going to do what you wanted anyway. So they all did what they wanted and left.

 

Finally, I want to say this. Was the way companions were with the 4.0 drop really breaking anything in game? It is not like they made things noncompetitive as they are used in PvE. Who cares if they were a bit powerful if people were enjoying themselves. For those that thought they were overpowered, shut them off, or put them in passive mode.

 

My father used to repeat an old saying to me a lot when I was young: "Never bite the hand that feeds you." Many years later, that advice is the best any business can keep in mind. It doesn't matter how good a developer thinks their game is, without players you have no game.

 

While I personally feel they were a bit OP, I really didn't care. It wasn't breaking anything or ruining my enjoyment. I used to love running dailies in the Black Hole and doing the Heroic 2 with a companion. Now I can't because the companion is A.) Way, way too squishy and B.) Can't heal worth of beans.

 

Am I going to leave over this - no, I will make do with the changes. What will make me give it up again, however, is if the members of my guild decide they have had enough of BW ignoring the customers and call it permanently on this game.

 

tl;dr We've been down this road before of not listening to customers and their was a very big lesson from then that still appears to not have been learned.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Wayshuba

[HarleysRule]

Pre 4.0, I soloed 95% of the time, and only grouped in open world if there was a slow spawn involved just so we wouldn't be competing over pulls. I rarely did dailies, only some weeklies, and only ever grouped for H4s until I out leveled them enough to solo them, except of course the Section X that *needed* 4 because of mechanics. About the only HMs I did were for HK parts....never wiped. I did one SM Op ever...as a tank in barely adequate gear (they were desperate lol), and was able to get the Op through without any deaths just by being told the mechanics of the fight right before. I don't say this to say I'm pro...quite the opposite. You can be casual and want a game to provide some level of stimulation beyond "push button, receive reward". It's not about forcing people to group.

[Pagy]

Community isn't divided. A majority were fine with changes. The vocal minority ruined the game for everyone else if the game dies. We will have them to thank for crying for two straight weeks on the forum non stop.

can u explain how a "vocal minority" dictated the design philosophy and balance of the game?

 

bw felt the companions were too strong, making content they intended to be more challenging, trivial.

they decided to nerf them.

 

whatever players said or wanted on fourms doesnt change any of that.

[TUXs]

can u explain how a "vocal minority" dictated the design philosophy and balance of the game?

 

bw felt the companions were too strong, making content they intended to be more challenging, trivial.

they decided to nerf them.

 

whatever players said or wanted on fourms doesnt change any of that.

We're on opposite sides of this debate Pagy, but you're right about this...

 

If anyone thinks it was the 10 posts about companions being OP that influenced this change, they're mistaken...this change was all Bioware's idea, not feedback induced.

[RogerApple]

can u explain how a "vocal minority" dictated the design philosophy and balance of the game?

 

bw felt the companions were too strong, making content they intended to be more challenging, trivial.

they decided to nerf them.

 

whatever players said or wanted on fourms doesnt change any of that.

 

You and others like you were complaining. The Dev even cited your response to say community was divded. The majority always supported the changes. Most of the people that supported it were not creating a dozen threads trying to get nuked to hell. They were in game enjoying it. Myself I was leveling 5 different ALT's at different times. I always knew more people overwhelmingly so supported the changes. Now you are seeing people who have their fun robbed due to people that were obsessed with making this game more time consuming and for what reason. Why did you and those like you need make this game more of a grind then needed.

 

Are you happy with the current changes. I remember you complaining about it. Now it seems like your trying back pedal due to the backlash. Let me know how that works out.

Edited November 19, 2015 by RogerApple