Healers shouldn't be a raid boss.

[DomiSotto]

Because PvP is designed to be a group effort.

[gblXsw]

By that logic does that not make dps pointless? Why is undoing damage less useful than doing damage? It is just as effective. One stops death, the other causes death; they are merely opposites; and should be treated as such. The only difference is damage has no utility when used on yourself, unlike healing; which is where a difference comes into play.

 

Dps are not pointless, because you need to remove enemy players to win, wether it's team deathmatch, where the last team standing wins or objective based warzones, where you have to clear objectives to capture them. You'll never clear a node quickly enough if all you have is healers and tanks and you'll never win an arena on acid if you can't push the enemy's health down quicker than they yours (of course I'm not being literal when saying "never", there are always exceptions).

 

Edit: As I said before, I agree that Sorc healers specifically need a nerf. But I strongly disagree with the notion that balance meant healers dying as easily as dps.

Edited November 3, 2015 by gblXsw

[Matherine]

Dps are not pointless, because you need to remove enemy players to win, wether it's team deathmatch, where the last team standing wins or objective based warzones, where you have to clear objectives to capture them. You'll never clear a node quickly enough if all you have is healers and tanks and you'll never win an arena on acid if you can't push the enemy's health down quicker than they yours (of course I'm not being literal when saying "never", there are always exceptions).

 

Edit: As I said before, I agree that Sorc healers specifically need a nerf. But I strongly disagree with the notion that balance meant healers dying as easily as dps.

 

I never said dps was useless, i was merely reflecting your logic for healers being uselss if they were to ever have defense as weak as dps. In other words; even if healers had low defense they are not useless; afterall,preventing people from dying also prevents you from losing. In that regard it is just as important as dps. Also; you can't do damage if you're dead.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Matherine

[gblXsw]

I never said dps was useless, i was merely reflecting your logic for healers being uselss if they were to ever have defense as weak as dps. In other words; even if healers had low defense they are not useless; afterall,preventing people from dying also prevents you from losing. In that regard it is just as important as dps. Also; you can't do damage if you're dead.

 

Healers are harder to kill, because they can heal themselves and dps can't. That's all there is to it.

[Vodrin]

On even skill, a healer should never be able to get soloed.

Your whining speaks of a l2p issue more than anything else.

 

And yet they can be in this game. The following spec's have sufficient DPS and burst to simply overwhelm a sorc's ability to self heal, assuming they interrupt innervate whenever their interrupt is up and are able to more or less continuously stay on target:

 

Carnage and annihilation marauder

Vengeance jug

Marksman sniper

AP power tech

IO merc

Hatred sin

 

And there are most likely others, but these are the ones I have played first hand. Sorc single target HPS is not that good when innervate is interrupted frequently. They have some impressive kiting and los abilities, but if you counter them well as DPS there is no reason you should not be able to take them down solo. This can change if they have the support of a good team though. Healers are nearly immortal with the support of a good DPS group and a tank, but I do not think this is a healing issue.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Vodrin

[Cretinus]

The solution is EXTREMELY easy:

Healing others needs to come in with diminishing returns (but healing oneself not!). This way you can heal yourself to survive a couple of DPSers, but you can't heal others (including other healers) to immortality.

 

For example: You heal that mara to full. For the next 10 secs you can only heal him up to 50% of his max HP. For the next 10 secs then, you can only heal him up to 25% of his max HP. And so on.

 

You're still buying the mara quite an amount of time to do his job, but you won't be able to keep him alive forever.

[UglyStik]

Uhhhh, people just need to get better. Most of the DPS I've run across are useless(and I'm not even good.....). Especially pub side of the Harb.

[alexsamma]

And yet they can be in this game. The following spec's have sufficient DPS and burst to simply overwhelm a sorc's ability to self heal, assuming they interrupt innervate whenever their interrupt is up and are able to more or less continuously stay on target:

 

Carnage and annihilation marauder

Vengeance jug

Marksman sniper

AP power tech

IO merc

Hatred sin

 

And there are most likely others, but these are the ones I have played first hand. Sorc single target HPS is not that good when innervate is interrupted frequently. They have some impressive kiting and los abilities, but if you counter them well as DPS there is no reason you should not be able to take them down solo. This can change if they have the support of a good team though. Healers are nearly immortal with the support of a good DPS group and a tank, but I do not think this is a healing issue.

 

Oh wow, another DPS that doesn't have an issue killing healers (even those pesky sorcs).

 

If we get one more to chirp in I think we might actually cause the forums to self implode.

[JouerTue]

Oh wow, another DPS that doesn't have an issue killing healers (even those pesky sorcs).

 

If we get one more to chirp in I think we might actually cause the forums to self implode.

 

but he's right, sometimes i notice a dps tunneling me all the match and i can keep casting because of the splash aoe heals keeping me up. 90% of dps white bar a healer in the fisrt 2 GCDs and it must be since the dot spread fest patch that i don't see a flashbang/awe/intimidating not broken.

 

ok, sorcs could be overtuned, but cross healing and guard are not even mechanics, and about that, i've seen more than once a tank dying through guard thanks to a good cc on the second healer and endless healers through guard because of a good cc/kb on the tank. it's always l2p because dps are generally worse players, especially comparing them with healers which are those with the easier learning curve imo( sorc lol).

[ace_boogie]

but he's right, sometimes i notice a dps tunneling me all the match and i can keep casting because of the splash aoe heals keeping me up. 90% of dps white bar a healer in the fisrt 2 GCDs and it must be since the dot spread fest patch that i don't see a flashbang/awe/intimidating not broken.

 

ok, sorcs could be overtuned, but cross healing and guard are not even mechanics, and about that, i've seen more than once a tank dying through guard thanks to a good cc on the second healer and endless healers through guard because of a good cc/kb on the tank. it's always l2p because dps are generally worse players, especially comparing them with healers which are those with the easier learning curve imo( sorc lol).

 

Yeah... Last night playing my sage I poured about 1.5 million damage into a sorc healer and only killed her twice (on my balance sage). Sorc healer too strong? Maybe... More than likely it was the fact that everyone else ignored her to tunnel the jugg and powertech sitting there blowing them up one by one, while they wondered why the jugg and PT health didn't dip below 85%.

 

If I can kill a sorc healer solo (regardless of how long it takes doing single target damage as balance sage) then there's no reason 2-3 decent DPS shouldn't be able to kill a good healer. Problem is most DPS want to be death matching scoreboard warriors and they aren't even good at THAT.

Edited November 3, 2015 by ace_boogie

[Mordresh]

I'm playing Anni marauder and dealing with healers does seem kind of better than before 4.0.

 

I think that the design should be that a healer can keep himself alive while pressured by a DPS, but not himself and his team at the same time. The healer's team should be forced to peel his dps off not just blindly zerg around somewhere else.

[JouerTue]

Yeah... Last night playing my sage I poured about 1.5 million damage into a sorc healer and only killed her twice (on my balance sage). Sorc healer too strong? Maybe... More than likely it was the fact that everyone else ignored her to tunnel the jugg and powertech sitting there blowing them up one by one, while they wondered why the jugg and PT health didn't dip below 85%.

 

If I can kill a sorc healer solo (regardless of how long it takes doing single target damage as balance sage) then there's no reason 2-3 decent DPS shouldn't be able to kill a good healer. Problem is most DPS want to be death matching scoreboard warriors and they aren't even good at THAT.

 

you touch key concepts of regs.

 

from my experience:

1 good--->shut down

1 bad--> free cast

2 and 1 good--->shut down

2 good---> prolly dead unless cds up

2 bads--.> meh..kite a bit they loose interest lol

3 good---> dead

having a tank is a huge diffrence, even bigger than a cross healing friend, because tank completely shuts down bads..50% of **** dps is laughable, while you could miss or being unable to heal(stuns) a huge burst.

sorc have the advantage of huge kiting tools, good output on the move, and anti-focus tools. that's why hey are harder..when you even have one dps with you he looses interest totally if the sorc bubbles or phase walks, like he's not going to be back in a few secs healing...

Edited November 3, 2015 by JouerTue

[Scinald]

I'm playing Anni marauder and dealing with healers does seem kind of better than before 4.0.

 

I think that the design should be that a healer can keep himself alive while pressured by a DPS, but not himself and his team at the same time. The healer's team should be forced to peel his dps off not just blindly zerg around somewhere else.

 

I would take that a bit further which is a healer should be vulnerable to DPS solo, but able to keep teammates up with much greater efficiency. Basically, self-heals should be penalized and healing others should be encouraged so there is an even strong incentive for a team to protect the healer. This will, of course, not happen in this game b/c the general level of PvP play is around keyboard heroes trying to wave their e-peen by soloing everyone else in the WZ and not around team play.

 

Although, I will note that killing healers here is nothing compared to how hard it was in Warhammer Online (a game from which many of the combat mechanics were taken) when fighting a chalice DoK or book Warrior Priest.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Although, I will note that killing healers here is nothing compared to how hard it was in Warhammer Online (a game from which many of the combat mechanics were taken) when fighting a chalice DoK or book Warrior Priest.

 

Let's hope that they won't try to copy that ...

[Vodrin]

Let's hope that they won't try to copy that ...

 

They more or less did with the sorc/sage healers at launch. 1.0 Sorc/sage heals was very similar to the Warrior priest/DoK mechanic. In that game healing debuffs were at least more powerful. Just meant you had to have a class with a heal debuff to kill them though.

 

And for the record, healing is only slightly overtuned right now. It just needs to be slightly toned down. Then we just need to figure out a slightly better mechanic for guard and everything will be perfect..... with regards to healing anyways.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Vodrin

[Transcendent]

Well, if I can take my Sorc healer in PvE gear into a PvP match and not die.... they can't be broken. /end of discussion.

[Vember]

DPS soloing healers breaks PvP. When that happens, your team is weaker for bringing any healers.

 

DPS not being able to solo healers breaks pvp. When it takes multiple people to kill a healer, then having cross healing and guard becomes a severe problem.

 

Teamwork is a two way street. Healers should require protection to survive.

[Matherine]

"Heals aren't broken! it must be all those bad dpsers!"

I guess all the "good" players must only play healer...

Edited November 3, 2015 by Matherine

[Caelrie]

When it takes multiple people to kill a healer.

 

Then the game is working properly. It should take two DPS to kill a healer.

[Anishor]

On even skill, a healer should never be able to get soloed.

Your whining speaks of a l2p issue more than anything else.

 

I disagree. Good DPS should eventually kill a healer. That way you it's not super overpowered when introduce guard. If there were no tanks, I would agree with your statement but there are tanks.

[alexsamma]

"Heals aren't broken! it must be all those bad dpsers!"

I guess all the "good" players must only play healer...

 

You leave out the part were most of us say "the average healer is a free kill."

 

It's funny how people who ***** about healers only remember the ones they could not kill.

Edited November 3, 2015 by alexsamma

[Vodrin]

Well, if I can take my Sorc healer in PvE gear into a PvP match and not die.... they can't be broken. /end of discussion.

 

If you took a PvE geared sorc healer into a match and did not die it is because you had a very good tank protecting you or the other teams DPS sucked balls. There really is no other potential explanation. If spec'd carnage I can frequently kill such a sorc on my mara before he can bubble or phase walk. PvE geared sorc healers are nearly a free kill. So I do not understand your hyperbole.

[Vember]

Then the game is working properly. It should take two DPS to kill a healer.

 

That kinda throws team work out the window for one of those three. When it takes two dps to kill an unguarded healer without support, the game is absolutely broken. Add in guard and cross healing and that just further exacerbates the issue.

[Ballroompirate]

Then the game is working properly. It should take two DPS to kill a healer.

 

In other MMO's sure, but with guard, taunts and barely any healing reduction abilities, healing needs a severe nerf to the ground.

 

Healers are damn near impossible to kill in this game, there is no ands ifs or buts, it should never take 3-4 or even more dps to kill a healer specially if they have a tank that uses guard/taunts (and if there's 2 healers + a tank you're not gonna win). I'm about to call it quits on my dps classes and facekeyboardroll a healer and just let the comms rain down on me.

[Lhancelot]

"Heals aren't broken! it must be all those bad dpsers!"

I guess all the "good" players must only play healer...

 

The thing is, honestly speaking heals is easier than dps in nearly every case. There are a couple easy to play dps (sorc and PT), the rest actually require a bit of coordination in more ways than one.

 

On a side note, sage/sorc healers are by far the easiest healer to play and humorously they also are the most powerful.

 

A good dps should at the very least force a healer to have to focus on keeping themselves alive and if a dps does that, the team has a chance to kill the rest of the healer's teammates if they do not want to focus the healer with more than one dps.

 

The problem of not being able to kill healers is not only a skill issue on the average dps player's part, but it is also a class issue where healers ARE easier to play. Just my opinion, ofc.