Why I Think KotFE Ruined SWTOR

[Kalzyk]

The thing is, do you think it will still need it next week ? Most hype comes from the new story, which last 10 hours.

 

Only time will tell, I've seen people displeased but quite a lot of people happy with KotFE. We'll see if things are still doing well in the weeks ahead. Personally I like a lot of the changes, but dislike some as well, assuming they handle things reasonably well I'll remain subbed and still play. If not then I'll leave it's pretty simple. Personally I like KotFE overall and feel it's headed in the right direction, but I respect the fact there are those that disagree and dislike KotFE.

[Eleonora]

There's no way I'm reading that. Is there a TLDR version?

[Swissbob]

There's no way I'm reading that. Is there a TLDR version?

 

Yeah, it's a whole lot. I'm surprised so many people have taken the time to read it thus far.

 

There are TL;DR versions of each "section" at the end of the section (inside each spoiler tag, highlighted in bright green I believe).

 

There is no winning.

 

It's clear BioWare wanted the player to feel an epic battle with an empire that can lose. BioWare can't really do this with the Republic and Empire for the same reasons Blizzard can't pick a side in World of Warcraft. It looks bad and alienates the players of one faction to favor the other, meaning neither can win unless you don't mind pissing off half your players.

 

The solution is to provide us with an enemy that can lose on either side without causing any concerns of faction favoritism. The problem with this is that said faction is usually meaningless in the grand scheme of things. This is ultimately an issue with faction-based MMOs and perhaps storylines in MMOs in general.

 

You're right about the difficulty of implementing a faction winning, and so of course I don't expect them to implement a story line where one faction is victorious over the other. However, that doesn't excuse the implementation of KotFE.

 

You are also right about providing a story where there is third faction/enemy that can actually be defeated and thus provide a satisfying. conclusion to a conflict. And Bioware has indeed done this on several occasions (see Dread Masters, Revan, Hutt Cartel, Malgus, Rakghouls, etc. etc.). The difference with KotFE and these plots, and why I take a problem with the former and not the latter is that KotFE ends and overrides the context and major plot line of the entire game: the Light Side/Republic/Jedi vs. Dark Side/Empire/Sith. Those other plots I mentioned took place within the greater context of that all important story, not overriding it. That main Light vs. Dark story was not only the focus of most all stories in the vanilla 1-50 content, but was the main source of the Star Wars feel of the game. Now, with it gone, everything that furthered that storyline becomes pointless, as it was never resolved and override with yet another deus ex machina, and the Star Wars feel is lost.

 

Also though.... as someone here mentioned, third party factions isn't the only solution. Storylines within the Light vs. Dark storyline can be instituted without outright declaring a victor. A good example of this was the Forged Alliance story arc (with the Tython and Korriban Flashpoints). These gave a breath of fresh air in the form of the continuation of the game's major plot. and didn't actually resolve the entire plot, as it was a subplot within the greater conflict.

 

That said, these stories can be harder and more expensive to develop, as they are asymmetrical, unlike stories like Revan's.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Swissbob

[FourPawnBenoni]

You nerds in here still arguing over this dumb OP? LOL

[Ferretstalker]

You nerds in here still arguing over this dumb OP? LOL

 

Seems to me like a good deal of discussion happening in here. LOL

 

Try harder, next time, please.

[Swissbob]

You nerds in here still arguing over this dumb OP? LOL

 

Yeah, as it turns out, people care about what they spend their time on. It's an interesting phenomenon.

 

When something changes negatively in what they care about, they want to talk about it. Then when other people notice people are talking in a negative way about something they care about and like, they chime in as well.

 

Interestingly, you participated in that phenomenon, perhaps without even knowing it. You cared about the progress of this thread (why, I don't know), and so you contributed your (unfortunately unproductive) thoughts on the matter.

 

Human interaction is very interesting indeed.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Swissbob

[Max_Killjoy]

SWTOR is so "ruined," we had an extra maintenance to add server capacity.

 

Neither requires or precludes the other.

[Swissbob]

They were plotting to kill him and take his power from him, as the Sith always do.

 

Well, Vitiate survived over a thousand years with the Sith, what was different now? Indeed, previous Sith power plays by the Dark Council had been made on him in the past, and he completely destroyed all of them.

 

Combined with his secrecy and elusiveness, ultimate force power, hero worship and undyingly loyal protection, and track record of surviving for 13 centuries (not to mention an Infinite, invincible fleet), he'd feel pretty safe from some lowly Sith Lords.

 

He could have realized as long as they were stuck in the Sith traditions, they were never going to win.

 

Well.... with him and his infinite fleet at the helm.... how could he lose? If his Infinite Fleet could beat both Republic, Jedi, Sith, and Empire all combined and within a couple years, how could he possibly lose against just the Republic and Jedi and with the Sith at his back? Or even without the Sith at his back? Again.... why did he even invest a millenium into the Sith if he didn't need them, or they were even a detriment to him as you suggested above?

 

He wanted to consume all live in one big ritual, that doesn't seem to be happening. He's been able to do planet sized bites, but that is really a small part of the Galaxy.

 

Yeah.... why isn't it happening? Is it because it's not possible? If so, why was he even trying? If it is possible, why isn't he doing it? His motives just are not clear and are always changing, and the proper explanations required for me to forgive or even like those changes are simply not given.

 

And as the plot so far goes, seems something changed in him after consuming Ziost.

 

Yeah.... and the lack of a clear explanation as to why that change happened and what the nature of that change is is at the core of why the plot doesn't make sense.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Swissbob

[TurtlesAWD]

Can I get a version of OP that doesn't have the different colors/text sizes/bold and underlined stuff? Basically, the less what I'm reading resembles the time cube website the easier I find it to take it seriously.

[LordArtemis]

Again, I think the constant screwing with character abilities is what hurt the game over the last 7 months. I mean, it got to be pretty ridiculous there for a while....and most of the classes now play nothing like they did a year ago, never mind two or three years ago.

 

WoW made this very same mistake and payed the same price IMO.

[Swissbob]

Can I get a version of OP that doesn't have the different colors/text sizes/bold and underlined stuff? Basically, the less what I'm reading resembles the time cube website the easier I find it to take it seriously.

 

You sure can, my friend. Here it is, in giant wall of colorless, featureless text format.

 

Click Show to unleash the Wall:

 

 

Why I think Knights of the Fallen Empire Ruined SWTOR

Everything I Wrote That Wasn't in an Initial Spoiler Tag

 

for the time being, at least)

 

NOTE: I have and will continue to edit this OP based on new ideas and feedback I've been getting from the (quite nice) discussion going on here. Thanks to all who posted their thoughts, whether they agreed or disagreed!

 

After logging into 4.0, testing out the changes, playing through the Fallen Empire storyline twice, and then letting it marinate for a couple days, I’ve come to realize, SWTOR, in all likelihood, has been ruined for me. For someone who has been with the game since its launch, and has put several hundred hours (who knows how much precisely, counting up all of the “/played’s” for all my characters would be a real chore!) into the game, I have a certain emotional connection to it (after all, how can someone devote hundreds of hours to something and not form some sort of attachment to it), and now so suddenly I realize why there are so many people who feel the need to make “I’m canceling my sub” posts. Well, I’ll try my best to try not to do that, as, after all, I’m likely not cancelling my sub nor leaving the game outright. This (very, very long) post will be a review of sorts of Fallen Empire, and why I think it ruined SWTOR for me.

 

I know what kind of reaction these super long posts usually get (sarcasm, apathy, or simply none), and I go forward with the assumption very few will actually read what I have to say.

NOTE: Much of what I have to say here is a compilation of my inputs in another thread over on the Story and Lore section, which you can view here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=843340&pp=10

OTHER NOTE: TL;DR’s are available at the end of each Spoiler Tag.

FINAL NOTE: Spoilers, of course. I will be talking about class stories, expansion stories, etc.

Without further ado, I’ll begin.

 

 

#1 The Skippable Preface: Why do I play SWTOR in the first place?

 

Put simply, I love Star Wars. I’ve been a fan since the original trilogy, but I was more a participant in the cultural phenomenon than a true diehard fan. I loved the movies of course, but I didn’t, for instance, have Star Wars posters, memorabilia, books, countless video, board, and card games, and toys infesting my house like I do now. You know what sparked that transition from the casual to the hardcore? Interestingly enough, it began with Bioware with Knights of the Old Republic. However my fandom didn’t fully emerge from the cocoon until Obsidian’s sequel, The Sith Lords. Maybe it’s the decade of nostalgia that now separates me from my first play through of those games, but I view them with a sense of legend. To me (who had ignored decades of EU Books that likely could’ve started that transition years earlier) they evolved Star Wars from the setting of some damn good films (and some mediocre ones) to a mythology whose size, versatility and capacity for “epicness” is, in my opinion, unrivaled by any fictional creation of modern mankind. I love Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Star Trek, and (insert many fantasy and sci-fi book series here), but, in my mind, they do not compare.

 

So, naturally, I was going to play SWTOR. Another Star Wars game, set in the Old Republic era made by Bioware with a multi-hundred million dollar budget? I was bursting to get in the door. I was there in the beta, early access, founder title and all that jazz. I played the game for years, and while to some extent I was mildly disappointed in its lacking of KOTOR qualities, I didn’t listen to much of the complaints people had about the game. After all, no dual-spec, limited guild functionality, copy and paste combat system etc. etc. etc.…. That didn’t matter to someone like me. I had never played WoW (or any other major MMO), and didn’t really care too much about the quality or quantity of traditional MMO features. I was here simply for the Star Wars Story.

Jedi vs. Sith! Empire vs. Republic! The mystery of the Sith Emperor! The return of Revan (as divisive as that was)! This is what kept my money and time flowing into SWTOR.

 

Some of you can see where this is going, I’m sure.

TL;DR Version: I play SWTOR because it’s Star Wars, and for the Story.

 

#2 The Meat and Potatoes: Why do I think the game is ruined?

#2a The Meat and Potatoes Part One: It’s all for naught.

 

In case you missed it, I play SWTOR for Star Wars, and for the story. Accordingly, I feel like Knights of the Fallen Empire ruined SWTOR’s story, and its Star Wars elements, and therefore has essentially destroyed my reason to play the game. But how did KotFE ruin SWTOR’s story? Well, let me explain.

 

First, and in my opinion, most important, it made everything that has happened thus far not only in the entirety of SWTOR, but even going back to KOTOR totally and utterly pointless and irrelevant. That might sound like a stretch, but I really don’t think it is, and here’s why.

 

Throughout the history of SWTOR, we’ve seen our characters face hardship, grow and develop, and ultimately triumph in the face of opposition. We’ve seen them form relationships with characters, grow their own powerbases, protect planets from utter destruction or dominion of the Empire, conquer planets in the name of the Empire, protect their own factions from utter collapse, and even, on a few occasions, saved the galaxy as a whole!

 

I (and I’m sure many others) have grown attached to our characters and their respective factions that we have spent years with. Now, all of that has been totally and seemingly irrevocably undone.

 

A new incredibly randomly and OP as hell faction suddenly invades the galaxy while our characters are in a coma, making the Jedi, the Sith, the Republic, the Empire, and every single accomplishment our characters made either completely pointless and irrelevant. Congratulations, Bioware… in my eyes you just made years of your own writing meaningless. In a tragic turn of events, everything I’ve done through my characters in this universe has been destroyed…. None of it matters. My companions, power base, and entire faction is gone, all because of an incredibly sudden and somehow secret faction that just randomly appeared.

 

Kephess could have won, Revan could have won, the Hutts could have won, the Dread Masters could have won, and our characters could never have even existed and the galaxy would be totally the same: controlled by The New OP Empire.

 

Ultimately, everything that has happened in SWTOR has become one big farce of pointlessness. Jedi? Sith? The Light and Dark Side of the Force? You know, STAR WARS at its very core? They've all become powerless and irrelevant.

 

Bear with me here, as I use an analogy: What if this happened in Lord of the Rings? You've watched Frodo grow and change through his long and arduous journey, and he is on the verge of destroying the ring at Mount Doom, all the while a cast of memorable characters (Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, etc.) and the men of the west fight valiantly against the evil forces of Sauron. Suddenly, Frodo (and by extension the audience) enters a coma, only to wake up 5 years later to find an army of invincible Valkyrie have invaded Middle Earth, defeated Rohan, Gondor, the Dwarves, the Elves, and Sauron and his horde of minions to establish a new Empire. It would kind of defeat the purpose of Frodo's quest, and therefore the Lord of the Rings Books themselves.

 

Now, you may be thinking: Well, it was already pointless! We already know the Republic falls to Palpatine, and then the Rebels win, etc. and so forth!

 

But there is a key difference: time.

 

The difference being is that Palpatine and friends is millennia in the future. Our characters are long, long dead, so of course their accomplishments have faded in importance. In this expansion, our characters are very much alive, and in the prime of their importance, only to see their accomplishments, relationships, powerbases, and factions, and ultimately most everything they've been working towards obliterated instantly in front of their faces.

 

Using my Lord of the Rings analogy, if we knew Sauron returned 2 thousand years later, that doesn't mean Frodo's quest was pointless, as his destruction of Sauron lasted for 2 thousand years. However, if we see Sauron get defeated by a random army of Valkyrie before Frodo even finishes his quest, then it is all pointless because he didn't even enact much change at all.

 

Same thing here in SWTOR. We see our character's grow and change, and work towards a steady goal (the success of their faction most commonly), only to see it be erased randomly while they're in a coma just moments after it happened.

 

Put simply, a few thousand years of impact means a lot, but a year or two doesn't mean much at all.

Ultimately, and put dramatically, Valkorion’s destruction of the Sith Empire and Republic is directly analogous to Bioware’s destruction of the relevance of their own story.

 

 

You might also be saying: Well, our characters are still alive, because of what they did, therefore it isn't all pointless! Well, you are somewhat right, but that only lends to new meaning being created in the future:the deeds and the inherent value of our actions in the past are still completely erased.

 

To use another analogy: Let's say you founded a nation, and saved 100,000 people in the process. But the next day, an infinite army of tanks rolls, killing all 100,000 people and destroying and conquering the country, but you alone were able to escape.

 

Does your physical survival mean that your actions in saving those people who died the next day and founding that country that was destroyed the next day matter at all in the grand scheme of things?

 

No, they're all still dead, and the country is still destroyed.

 

If the Eternal Empire's invasion actually was because of the actions that came before it, it could've been a good story. But instead, the Eternal Empire's invasion happens totally separate from what came before it, making everything that came before it pointless.

 

But what about the story still to come? Well, it’s hard to feel invested and care at all, given that everything I’ve invested and cared about before has been basically destroyed. Everything that’s happened…. Even going back all the way to KOTOR (what a tragedy that is), or hell, the Great Hyperspace War has been made irrelevant in favor of the random and all too uninteresting “Eternal Empire,” shattering my emotional connection and interest in general.

 

TL;DR Version: By destroying the Republic, Jedi, Sith, and Empire, our characters actions and history has been made irrelevant, destroying any interest or emotional investment the game had acquired over the years.

 

 

#2b The Meat and Potatoes Part Two: The Puppet Paradox (ie None of this makes any sense!).

 

 

There’s another insidious aspect to this however, and that is this: the story makes absolutely zero sense as presented by Bioware.

 

See, just because things got erased doesn't necessarily mean the story is ruined. Take a look at things like Game of Thrones or certain tragedies. Things get erased and made irrelevant, and yet it's still a very good story. Why? Because everything that happens makes sense, and the climax, even if it doesn't go the protagonist's way, is still a satisfying culmination of long running conflicts that play out the way the do ) due to key components of things like the character's choices, character's flaws, major plot components, etc. KotFE is missing this entirely. What does any of what my Smuggler did, any of what my Bounty Hunter did, any of what my Jedi Consular did have to do with the invasion of the Infinite Fleet?

 

In KotFE, it's not just that previous things are made irrelevant, it's also the fact that they were ultimately sacrificed for a story that is nonsensical and unsatisfying, and one that really ultimately has very little to do with anything that came before it, making the whole thing seem pointless.

 

So.... why do I think the story makes no sense?

 

Well, It simply makes no sense that Valkorion and Vitiate are the same person. Valkorion and the Eternal Empire run directly opposing Vitiate and his storyline in what I call the “Puppet Paradox.” The Puppet Paradox is thus: Vitiate is simultaneously the puppet-master, and the puppet.

 

To explain, we must begin at the beginning of Vitiate’s story: The Great Hyperspace War. For those who don’t know, this was essentially a giant conflict with the early Sith and Jedi, which Vitiate was alive and part of as a minor Sith Lord. Eventually the Sith were defeated, and Vitiate and a cadre of Sith retreated outside the known Galaxy (to Dromuund Kaas) to lick their wounds, recuperate, and ultimately seek revenge.

 

Fast forward 1000 years, skipping Revan, KOTORs 1 and 2, Exar Kun, Mandalorion Wars, etc. to the return of Vitiate Empire (the ‘Return’ trailer). There’s a war between them and the Republic/Jedi, and then SWTOR as we know it takes place.

 

And then, Knights of the Fallen Empire.

 

You mean to tell me Vitiate has *another* secret Empire!? From where? Since when? How!? This one is even more powerful than the other one? In fact so powerful that it can conquer the Republic and Sith Empire both incredibly easily within the matter of a year or two!?

 

Hold up…. What!? Here is where the Puppet Paradox comes into play. Vitiate is simultaneously the puppet (his Sith Empire invading the Republic to weaken both of them) and the puppet master (the Eternal Empire arriving to conquer both).

 

Why the hell does he invade the galaxy with his secret Empire so that he can ultimately weaken his own Empire so that his *other* secret and even more powerful Empire can conquer his old Empire…? What? Why doesn’t he just invade with BOTH of his Empire’s and end the war (or slaughter) that much faster?

 

If the answer is because his new Empire (the Eternal Empire) wasn’t ready until very recently, why didn’t he just wait a few decades so he didn’t have to destroy his Sith Empire? He’s already waited over a millennium, so a couple decades should be like a blink for Vitiate.

 

Overall there are just so many unanswered questions that cause all of the various plots Bioware has put forth to compound upon one another into a cyclone of nonsense. Why did he let the Empire fail if he had an invincible fleet? Why didn't he combine his empires? Why did he wait until just now to invade with his "better" Empire? Why did he need the original Empire at all if he had a better one? How did he get Zakuul? How did he get the Infinite Fleet? For how long did he have these? How did he keep all of this secret from everyone in the galaxy? Why, if he is a Sith, did he suddenly turn his back on the Sith Code and the Sith Empire in favor for what ever kind of Force user he is now? If his goal was to just cause as much prolonged conflict in the galaxy, why did he suddenly choose to end it by conquering everything so swiftly with the Infinite Fleet?

 

The great tragedy here is that even KOTOR itself is rendered nonsensical.What was the point of waiting for over a millenium, seducing Revan and Malak to create a proxy war, and then fighting the Republic for several decades with his one Empire when he had the capability to conquer the entire galaxy in a year or two with his invincible fleet and *other * secret Empire?

 

Ultimately, as Bioware has presented it, the story makes no sense, and is going to need some major plot voodoo to make it all make sense.

 

TL;DR Version: Vitiate and Valkorion being the same person doesn’t make sense. Why did he have his secret Empire invade the galaxy so it would be weakened so his other even more secret and powerful Empire could defeated his other Empire? In other (but similar) words, the story makes no sense as it is presented.

 

 

EDIT: #2c The Meat and Potatoes Part Three: Goodbye Star Wars.

 

 

So, if you’ve read up to this point, you might very well disagree with my assessments of the story. You could see the story as making total and utter sense, as well as not making everything that came before it pointless.

 

And yet, even if you convinced me of those two things, deep down I would still feel the game was, on some extent ruined, and here’s why.

 

Ultimately, I feel that the core feeling of “Star Wars” has just taken a large hit. This new storyline doesn’t feel like Star Wars to me. Why? Well...

 

In my eyes, Star Wars, at its very core, is the conflict between the Light and Dark Side of the Force. This struggle, which most commonly manifests as Jedi vs. Sith, or Empire vs. Republic/Rebels, is present in most every major Star Wars plot throughout the decades of its existence. And, even if a conflict in the lore wasn’t directly between a light side force user and a dark side force user, it still took place in the context of a galaxy as a whole divided between the two sides of the force.

 

And this is largely why I’ve stuck with SWTOR this long. Even though alot of the plots weren’t unique, or particularly well written, or all together very good, for the most part they totally nailed the feeling of Star Wars. And that’s all I ever needed.

 

(Note: There are also plenty of kick-*** and awesomely written stories that are unique and very good in this game too, just want to make that clear!)

 

Even with the Revan plotline, where the two factions came together, it still felt ultimately like Star Wars because at least the Jedi and Sith were still major players in the conflict.

 

But now? Goodbye Sith. Goodbye Empire. Goodbye Republic. Goodbye Jedi. They’ve all been swept to irrelevance by a galactic power that Bioware just (seemingly randomly) created that is indeed so powerful it can defeat everything Star Wars within the space of a few moments in the game. Hell, if this non-Jedi, non-Sith power is so superior, yet doesn’t rely on either the Light Side or Dark Side, then why the hell does that dichotomy even exist? If a single force user who is neither Sith nor Jedi can totally and swiftly conquer all the Sith and all the Jedi, then the whole Light side vs. Dark side struggle that has been going on for millennia past and future seem no longer crucial to the Star Wars Universe.

 

You see how this kind of goes against the lore of Star Wars? The Light and Dark Sides of the Force are supposed to be the most powerful things in the Galaxy, not the "Zakuul Side" or whatever it's called.

 

I want to see the pure hatred of the Sith go up against the calm clairvoyance of the Jedi! I want to see the imperfect democracy of the Republic face off against the ruthless fascism of the Empire! These are the stories we’ve had, and these are the stories I want to see more of, not some random “Eternal Empire” face off against the generic “Outlander.”

 

TL;DR By destroying the Sith and Jedi, the classic Light vs. Dark side story of Star Wars is erased, and the classic Star Wars feeling with it.

 

 

 

#3 The Extras: What about things that aren’t the Story?

 

 

So that’s a lot of talk about the story, and although the story means almost everything to me, what about the other stuff? SWTOR has a lot more in it than interactive cut scenes, after all. So, how did the changes in these parts of the game fare? Well, I’m not so qualified to say, as I am not as emotionally invested and as such haven’t put as much thought or time into it, but I’ll attempt to give my feedback.

 

First, and most importantly for me, the companions. This, in my eyes, was the biggest (besides what I’ve talked about in the Meat and Potatoes) failure of the new expansion. You know what was cool about the companions? They were unique! Everyone had their own strengths and weaknesses, their own cool abilities, and you could even give them their own cool stats (which brings forth a whole new set of strengths and weaknesses). Now, they are all the same Watch my menacing Dashade Khem Val stand on the brink of the action and toss heals in my direction. Witness 2V-R8 tank Darth Baras while my Sith Warrior watches in amusement. Gone are the days of my efforts paying off as I call up my geared as hell Corso to tank for my guild friends when we need a tank.

 

This lends well into my next problem: Somehow, the game has been made even easier… To the point of the game becoming a complete and utter joke. Need a super powerful companion to complete the game for you? Press a button. Need a level 60 to escape the hassle of playing the game? Press a button. Is Arcann proving to be a tense and close fight? Pop an emergency kolto station to heal to maximum health. Yes yes, I know some people want to just play the story and not have to deal with other things (me of all people should know this) but damn…. Don’t people want to have some sense of achievement when they win? Shouldn’t taking down Arcann, or Baras, or Thanaton, or any other boss give you a sense of accomplishment! Seeing your level ding to 60 should grant a sense of reward, instead you say “Well all those hours of playing gave me something I could have just pressed a button to receive instantly.” I don’t know…. I know I could be wrong on this cause people seem to love these changes making the game so laughably easy it’s a joke…. But deep down I remember the days of there being *some* necessity to use medpacs, or your heroic moment, or hell even dying and having to try again, as I frown in boredom as C2-N2 wins the game for me.

 

The New Alliance Conversation was also a disappointment, but in no way a game breaker. When I first saw it (being as huge a fan as I am of KOTOR 1 & 2) I was really excited. That conversation system is much more conducive to more in-depth and therefore more fulfilling and interesting conversations. HOWEVER that's only the case because it allows more options in dialouge than just three and therefore branching conversations, thus more unique for each character and more compelling and in-depth. However that's not the case here... You only have 3-4 dialogue options anyway, and each one only gives you a short answer with limited ability to create a new path for the conversation. What was the point of including this new interface if conversations are going to work the exact same way? (Roughly 3 responses, each gets a similar answer each time anyway). And I didn't realize how spoiled I'd become by having full VO for my character. A lack of PC voice over in KOTOR 1 & 2 never bothered me, but now that PC VO in SWTOR, it's absence is jarring and a negative overall, and I think that's because of the lack of continuity. I'm willing to sacrifice my character's voice for more in depth and fulfilling conversations (although I'm probably in the minority there), but if we don't get those than what's the point? It's only negative, bringing nothing positive except cheap nostalgia.

 

What else? Level sync. Hell, crucify me right now, but I actually LIKE level sync. It makes lower level content interesting via a little added challenge! Or…. Well it would if there was any challenge present in the game. In any case, I feel it’s a step in the right direction, but totally contradicts all the other changes they’ve been making to make the game easy as hell.

 

Crafting I’ve never been much of a part of, so I can’t comment on that really.

Really, I’m pretty exhausted at this point, so I’m just going to wrap this whole thing up.

 

TL;DR Version: The game’s too easy (surprise surprise), companions are no longer unique, there’s no sense of accomplishment in general.

 

 

 

#4 The End: Is SWTOR over for me? Here’s the really tragic part. Is SWTOR over for me? Well…..

 

 

No.

 

Unfortunately not. I’ve simply invested too much time, money, and most importantly, valuable emotional attachment to not only SWTOR, but KOTOR and the Old Republic Era of Star Wars as a whole to give up now. I simply, for my own sense of personal closure, need to see where the story is going. So, I will keep coming back, likely until SWTOR’s funding gets cut and its servers get shut down for good. After years of playing, hundreds of dollars spent, and countless fond memories of stock striking a Sith Lord I just pulled out of the air, hunting down a Jedi through the snows of Hoth, or flirting with every girl in sight with my dashing Smuggler, SWTOR’s hooks still reside in me. So, I’m along for the ride. For better or worse, I’ll be here for the years to come.

 

So, I have no free stuff to give… I’m holding onto it like a miser who’s near death.

 

TL;DR Version: No. I’ll still be around, I’ve invested too much to give up on it so suddenly.

 

 

#5 Afterword: Why everything I just wrote is wrong.

 

If there’s anyone still reading at this point, well, thanks I suppose. I wrote this mainly for my own purposes, but am elated if anyone took the time to read it.

 

So, let me try to end on a positive note, and escape from the usual doom and gloom of the forums.

There’s a possibility that everything I wrote here is totally and utterly wrong, and oh how happy I would be if that was the case. Knights of the Fallen Empire isn’t even over yet, after all! And SWTOR itself likely has years to go. Throughout all of that, the story easily could be resolved in a satisfying and awesome way. Who knows. Certainly not me.

 

Ultimately, I'm not saying the story of SWTOR is destroyed beyond repair. All I'm saying is that I feel Bioware seems to have dug themselves into quite a large plot hole, and it's going to take a very good plot rope to escape from... And I don't like the look of that plot shovel they are holding.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2015 by Swissbob

[Max_Killjoy]

Again, I think the constant screwing with character abilities is what hurt the game over the last 7 months. I mean, it got to be pretty ridiculous there for a while....and most of the classes now play nothing like they did a year ago, never mind two or three years ago.

 

WoW made this very same mistake and payed the same price IMO.

 

Sometimes I get the impression that they teach the students at "MMO design school" that your game will die instantly if you allow players any sense of familiarity or comfort in how their characters work, how the class skills/powers work, how progression works, etc...

[Swissbob]

I don't think you touched on it (I read your post twice) but I'm mostly concerned with where SWTOR is supposed to go after KotFE is over.

 

Our characters are now the head of the Galactic Alliance of Being the Good Guys, and we don't have ties our factions anymore. It's so jarring, but my loyal Dark Side Sith Warrior is chastised for wanting to bring the Empire back from the ashes and take control, and is instead forced into being the Commander (Shepard) of the ABGG, taking in and working with both factions without a second thought. Where does that leave us once it's all over? KotFE can't go on forever. There will eventually be an end to the story.

 

Does the war between the Republic and the Empire (the very foundation of the game) spark back up again? If so, why would our characters participate knowing full well that we all work better as a team? Are there more threats lurking in the void beyond the galaxy that our Alliance will be tasked with stopping? If so, what point does separate factions serve, and when will we be able to completely play cross-faction?

 

Bioware went straight to 11 with the plot, and I don't think they stopped to consider how their MMO is supposed to carry on. ME3 had a similar plot, and look how that ended. Any expansion to that was presented in the middle of the story, not afterwards.

 

Well said, and I completely agree, of course. I think I might have touched on this somewhere in the thread, but not in the OP. I might go about and add something like this is if I can find a good place to fix it.

 

You're right, and this is at the core of my worries. I can deal with a bad plot or two, if they're temporary. But if Bioware can't escape from this (and I really doubt ther can/will).... the story of SWTOR (and by extension even KOTOR) is going to be toast for a really long time.

 

And THAT is a tragedy.

[Billupsat]

I don't think you touched on it (I read your post twice) but I'm mostly concerned with where SWTOR is supposed to go after KotFE is over.

 

Our characters are now the head of the Galactic Alliance of Being the Good Guys, and we don't have ties our factions anymore. It's so jarring, but my loyal Dark Side Sith Warrior is chastised for wanting to bring the Empire back from the ashes and take control, and is instead forced into being the Commander (Shepard) of the ABGG, taking in and working with both factions without a second thought. Where does that leave us once it's all over? KotFE can't go on forever. There will eventually be an end to the story.

 

Does the war between the Republic and the Empire (the very foundation of the game) spark back up again? If so, why would our characters participate knowing full well that we all work better as a team? Are there more threats lurking in the void beyond the galaxy that our Alliance will be tasked with stopping? If so, what point does separate factions serve, and when will we be able to completely play cross-faction?

 

Bioware went straight to 11 with the plot, and I don't think they stopped to consider how their MMO is supposed to carry on. ME3 had a similar plot, and look how that ended. Any expansion to that was presented in the middle of the story, not afterwards.

 

Actually, it can. Personally, I don't care if we never go back to the war between the empire and the republic, we haven't really been involved in that since Corellia and we all know its much easier to produce one really good (depending on PoV) storyline verses two mediocre ones (ie. Makeb, the imperial version was at least somewhat enjoyable, but still not what I'd call great.)

 

MMO's unlike single player games have the luxury (or curse depending on how you look at it) of being an ever expanding media. I've said many times throughout my years here (more in game than on forums actually) that MMO's are the soap opera's of the gaming industry, and if there is one thing anyone who has ever watched a soap will know, storylines can run indefinitely. Sure there's give here, and take there, but more often than not the situation will eventually swap back to what it was before with one side or the other waiting for it to be their turn again. The villains change, the bad guys can change, (But they can come back with a vengeance when you are least expecting. ie. Revan, Vitiate, Kristen DiMera...) but the struggle can (not always, there are exceptions to everything) usually remain the same and stretch on until the end.

 

So depending on how Bioware wants to go with this, KotFE could run for many, many years. They've already referred this as 'season one' which to me indicates (and I could be wrong, not trying to say that I'm right) that this generally plotline is going to carry over into 'season two.' I think its especially likely considering they already have a season two planned, and usually in 'televised' media seasons often end in ridiculous cliffhangers that both excite and piss the viewing audience off as they have to wait 3 months to see it continued (if its continued.)

 

Essentially, no the story doesn't have to end, it could run for years or decades (like most soap love triangles...) before it runs out of steam.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Billupsat

[StarMagus]

For some of my characters, this really feels like an alliance of convenience and once the new big bad is downed, it leaves the Galaxy in a perfect place for somebody who is strong, has a clear vision, and people willing to die for them to take over and mold things to their liking.

[SgtJeremy]

Other than the nifty cutscenes the story was bleh. Companions are bleh. But like you said, I am pot committed to the game. Played for so long it's like that loser friend that you just have to love because you've had them around for so long. I died earlier today, I fell off the ledge but that was the closest I came to a challenge in this game since the new changes. That was exciting.

[Phain]

We know Bioware created KotFE for one reason:

All resources into 1 good story line instead of 2 mediocre story lines.

 

My question is:

Where will the story go in years to come? Will the Republic and Empire be friends or will there be a schism? Bioware is walking on thin ice and I truly hope they create something thrilling for us Star Wars nerds.

[Swissbob]

I think I got answers to some of your questions. (this one-time usage of flashy colours obviously ensures the fact that you will absolutely read it )[/Quote]

 

Can't .... resist... flashy.... colors....

 

During your class story, Makeb and SoR, the emperor noticed that you leave your imprint on the galaxy, like him (he identifies with you). The force is obviously with you/luck is obviously with you/you are a very skilled person (probably all of those). Therefore, he wants you as an ally/use you for something, for reasons yet to be made clear.

 

I don't really buy this. If there is one trope/cliche in all of fantasy fiction that I hate (and I'm pretty forgiving on the use cliches, if it works in the story who cares if its been used before) it's the "chosen one" cliche. I find this particularly odious because it makes for one dimensional stories, as the most interesting conflicts are those that are multifaceted and complex with multiple moving parts, actors and even factions, and when there is a "YOU are the one sole saviour/hope" is just kind of boring and uninteresting in comparison.

 

That said, however, as with any generalization, there are exceptions. The "chosen one" trope can actually work in stories, but it needs to have some interesting twist, be properly explained in an interesting way, at the very least make some sense.

 

I think KotFE fails in all of these. Why is Valkorion so interested in us and only us? I mean, granted, our characters are very important individuals, but we aren't peerless. Surely Satele Shan (Grand Master of the Jedi Order), Darth Marr (defacto leader of the Sith Empire), and Saresh (Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic) for instance have more or at the very least the same amount of power/gravitas. I mean.... you mean to tell me that a Smuggler leaves more of an imprint on the galaxy than the leader of the entire Republic, Jedi Order, and Empire? But not only that.... even if we were supremely powerful in some way over these people.... Vitiate himself is way, way more powerful then we are. In comparison to Vitiate, we're pretty weak.... so why does he even care about us?

 

Even if this did make sense (and I really don't think it does).... Bioware needs to explain it. Even if we do have some ability to change the galaxy, we need to see what it is. All I've seen is myself get carbon freezed, saved my Lana, and then get manhandled by Arcann (even though I was 100% health the entire fight) only to be saved by Valkorion. I mean.... why are we so great, and why does Valkorion need us? If it is the case, it needs to be explained.

 

To have you as an ally/to use you for whatever purpose, he has to act immediately, before your character dies of whatever cause. Therefore, he invades a bit with his Eternal Empire, just enough to get you to chase him. It apparantly was within his power to make another empire, and why not do so, if absolute power is your goal? Why not rule separate hubs of the galaxy (thereby controlling the whole) instead of having one HUGE empire controlling all? Huge empires are unstable. He knows this, therefore he does NOT mass invade with his Zakuul fleet/army, Arcann did after his father died (and ofc we all know that the rebellion against Zakuul will succeed).

 

So, Mr Emperor lures you to Zakuul, gets himself killed and takes the opportunity to invade your mind.

 

Now, some of you have said “it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever to consume all life on a planet, to then just disappear and suddenly have another empire.”

I disagree. And here’s why. The answer to almost every question you have is: YOU. Apparantly, YOUR CHARACTER is very, very important. Mr Emperor wanted to display his power by consuming all life on Ziost. He let you live, as he said on Ziost, because you have got his interest. And what does your character do afterwards? To chase the Emperor. It is proceeding as the emperor has foreseen.

 

Again.... why and how are we so important? He loses interest in consuming the entire galaxy and even purposefully gets himself killed for us? For my smuggler? For my Bounty Hunter? WHY?

 

He could be ruling the entire galaxy right now, or eating it planet by planet, but instead he's trapped in the mind of a smuggler by his own design. Does that make sense to you? Because it doesn't to me.

 

 

[...]

 

So now the ultimate question is: what’s Mr Emperor’s ultimate goal? We know that he’s very skilled in sith magic. I think he intends to merge your and Vaylin’s power, to complete some form of ritual. Vaylin has not unleashed her full potential yet, which suggests that she is very, very powerful. And, as you know, things in the galaxy have a way of turning out in your favor/the force is with you, that makes you special. What Mr Emperor's big, scary, evil plan is, we will see in the future ofc.

 

Yes, that indeed is the question. I'm more than half way through the story, and the main antagonist's motives and character are not only completely unclear but seem to be totally contradictory on many levels throughout the entirety of the plot thus far.

 

This is the plot hole I'm referring to, and I don't think Bioware is capable of pulling themselves out of it at this point.

 

But, as you have said, and as I have said, we will see.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Swissbob

[PulseRazor]

I feel like I just read a Lachrymology thesis.

[Zomnipotent]

I have said most of this to friends of mine on ventrilo.

 

They pretty much relegated the whole Sith vs Jedi as "the emperor wanted as much death as possible to consume their souls and become immortal"

 

The only way they could fix this, is if this whole expansion turned out to be a dream of the main character. Bioware needs to apologize for ruining the story.

[Audoucet]

We know Bioware created KotFE for one reason:

All resources into 1 good story line instead of 2 mediocre story lines.

 

My question is:

Where will the story go in years to come? Will the Republic and Empire be friends or will there be a schism? Bioware is walking on thin ice and I truly hope they create something thrilling for us Star Wars nerds.

 

SWTOR, is the only game in which I want DLCs.

 

I want to pay 10$, for ten hours of Sith Warrior. And then, I want to pay another 10$, to pursue the adventures of my Trooper. And so on.

[Deyjarl]

Well, Vitiate survived over a thousand years with the Sith, what was different now? .

 

That our characters got involved and it was actually getting close to working.

 

Well.... with him and his infinite fleet at the helm.... how could he lose?

Again if the Sith ways were what was preventing something like the infinite Fleet from being born, why would he want to continue to preserve it?

 

His motives just are not clear and are always changing, and the proper explanations required for me to forgive or even like those changes are simply not given.

 

Which until his story line, this story line is done, we aren't likely to know. You want the end of the book review of all the secret plots of the antagonist at the start.

[Billupsat]

I have said most of this to friends of mine on ventrilo.

 

They pretty much relegated the whole Sith vs Jedi as "the emperor wanted as much death as possible to consume their souls and become immortal"

 

The only way they could fix this, is if this whole expansion turned out to be a dream of the main character. Bioware needs to apologize for ruining the story.

 

Hardly, its much more entertaining now than it was before with Vitiate Sue running around eating planets in all his Saturday morning cartoon glory. For the first time since he was created he actually seems to have more than one dimension.

[Swissbob]

Actually, it can. Personally, I don't care if we never go back to the war between the empire and the republic, we haven't really been involved in that since Corellia and we all know its much easier to produce one really good (depending on PoV) storyline verses two mediocre ones (ie. Makeb, the imperial version was at least somewhat enjoyable, but still not what I'd call great.)

 

Yeah it is easier, and so for practical reasons I'm okay with the one storyline for two factions. I'm okay if each faction gets the same story, but I wish they still were focused around Empire or Republic depending on your faction. You know, so you are working with your respective faction. (See Dread Masters, Section X (really most daily areas with slight story additions), Assault on Tython/Korriban, Forged Alliances, etc.). I am even okay if they go about the "two factions work together" if it's used sparingly and it doesn't infringe upon the greater story, it can be fine (see Shadow of Revan).

 

Just because there is one storyline, doesn't mean it needs to destroy the game's central conflict and its actors.

 

 

MMO's unlike single player games have the luxury (or curse depending on how you look at it) of being an ever expanding media. I've said many times throughout my years here (more in game than on forums actually) that MMO's are the soap opera's of the gaming industry, and if there is one thing anyone who has ever watched a soap will know, storylines can run indefinitely. Sure there's give here, and take there, but more often than not the situation will eventually swap back to what it was before with one side or the other waiting for it to be their turn again. The villains change, the bad guys can change, (But they can come back with a vengeance when you are least expecting. ie. Revan, Vitiate, Kristen DiMera...) but the struggle can (not always, there are exceptions to everything) usually remain the same and stretch on until the end.

 

I love this analogy, because it equates me with a soap opera viewer who is upset his two favorite troubled lovers aren't quarreling anymore due to the incursion of a sudden new character.

 

It's pretty spot on, too.

 

Essentially, no the story doesn't have to end, it could run for years or decades (like most soap love triangles...) before it runs out of steam.

 

And if it does, I'm in for a long and frustrating road ahead.

[Billupsat]

Yeah it is easier, and so for practical reasons I'm okay with the one storyline for two factions. I'm okay if each faction gets the same story, but I wish they still were focused around Empire or Republic depending on your faction. You know, so you are working with your respective faction. (See Dread Masters, Section X (really most daily areas with slight story additions), Assault on Tython/Korriban, Forged Alliances, etc.). I am even okay if they go about the "two factions work together" if it's used sparingly and it doesn't infringe upon the greater story, it can be fine (see Shadow of Revan).

 

Just because there is one storyline, doesn't mean it needs to destroy the game's central conflict and its actors.

 

I think it goes without saying that most people agree and would prefer it if we at least interacted with our own factions a little more. (The opening of Ziost is the last real good example and then its back to almost 100% the same except for minor changes with Kovach.) However, I'd need to be able to see the numbers, how much money they have, how much time it would take, what it would potentially take away from before I'd say that was something they should be doing. On the positive side, if this expansion goes as they're hoping (and I think we're hoping) in the future they may indeed have the budget and time to do just that.

 

 

 

 

I love this analogy, because it equates me with a soap opera viewer who is upset his two favorite troubled lovers aren't quarreling anymore due to the incursion of a sudden new character.

 

It's pretty spot on, too.

 

It was a very funny realization for me a few years back as well, especially considering I used to watch them with my mother before starting school. At least Bioware's writing is still leagues above current soap standards (I took a look at them a few years back and the quality has certainly taken a nosedive. But then you consider there are so many other things to watch and so many people working while they're on. I could probably make another analogy on the declining nature of both genre's in general, with time shifted viewing and f2p when up against heavy competition.) While I'm not entirely sold on the new villains yet, they do show some potential to be entertaining and interesting though unfortunately this has yet to be really explored. I'm going to need a peek inside what makes Arcann tick to really feel him as a villain, and Vaylin... she's at least an entertaining Evil Sue, unlike Vitiate and how he was written for years. But then, I'm a little more lenient when it comes to female villains as they're usually the more interesting ones anyway.

 

 

 

And if it does, I'm in for a long and frustrating road ahead.

 

Indeed, its never a good thing when you don't like the main storyline, especially when there is only one. There are a couple options that I'm sure you're already aware of. You could take some time away from it and check back in every once in a while and see if things have improved, or there's the wait it out and hope things pick up soon. I enjoyed 1-9 very much, but I'm rather apprehensive myself going forward because of Kaliyo, I have never liked this character (She's too thinly written and Sociopathic for no reason) and am not looking forward to her hogging screentime come January. Unfortunately, that's where we're stuck. Some people are going to hate 1-9 but may like where things go in 10-16, and vice versa.

 

With all that extrapolated... I have to say I'm in the hope it succeeds camp, because for some strange reason I still have this dim hope that if things really start to turn around we might actually get some semblance of class stories back...