Poll: who likes level sync and who doesn't

[SpiesAreUs]

Didn't ask for it

Community was consulted on it

Therefore it should be optional for those that do want it.

Personally, I don't want it.

[azudelphi]

Community was consulted on it

I don't believe we were consulted. We've been informed about it (now), but not really consulted.

The testers have been doing their job in the background and silence in terms of technical and non-technical feedback. While the testers may be able to shed some light on the "why" of the change being non-optional, they are not allowed because of a NDA.

[Exylem]

I'm quite new to the game, but, at first sight, it looks like a great idea to me.

 

End game may change my views, though.

[Exeeter]

I'm quite new to the game, but, at first sight, it looks like a great idea to me.

 

End game may change my views, though.

 

No it really wont. If you think the idea is good, end game will not change your mind in any way

[Jnaathra]

How about making real freaking poll next time?

 

and I am fine with it. I barely visit lower level planets and maybe now I will have a reason to go there. Since I scale up to the upper limits of said planet, I will still gut everything on it including the heroics.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Jnaathra

[dscount]

DISLIKE and would like to see OPTIONAL as it does have some value, but forced is not going to get people planet side and that's likely not going to get H2's stuff done either.

 

Games like GW2 that are B2P and have Level Sync...

 

I no longer play GW2 - paritally because the level sync was just annoying. Collecting resources is usually my "relaxing / downtime" when I'm between raids and just need to make some extra items for whatever.

Edited October 8, 2015 by dscount

[Alssaran]

I'm quite new to the game, but, at first sight, it looks like a great idea to me.

 

End game may change my views, though.

 

I think that's the issue here. There are two camps of people in this discussion. There is the one faction that sees potential in the idea of a level synch and has made some previous experience with similar systems. For example: I still play GW2 sometimes. The level synch there is really a good thing.

 

Then there is the second faction, which for all means still clings to the idea of a "vertical progression" and the idea that being level 65 should entitle you to solo everything in the game and one-hit everything without an issue. I think the issue isn't the level synch per se, only that this game is suddenly switching from a more vertical game to a horizontal one.

 

Levels were an indicative value before. You farmed them to get more power and to be able to solo content easily, i.g "to roflstomp stuff". Now they are merely a number that indicates at which point you unlock access to a new planet. People accumulated levels not in the means to "unlock content" but to "amass power and numbers" before.

 

Instead of thinking that the level up from 27 to 28 is merely an addition of +1 to a number, people should start to think that leveling to 28 unlocks a new planet I can travel to. Levels aren't an absolute value anymore, they are subjective. You unlock the freedom to travel to any planet you choose by 65 and do content on it.

 

And people are bend on the idea that level synch will make solo play impossible, which really isn't true.

 

DISLIKE and would like to see OPTIONAL as it does have some value, but forced is not going to get people planet side and that's likely not going to get H2's stuff done either.

 

No. Level synch isn't going to do that. The lockbox rewards for Heroic 2+ quests are going to do that. Besides: I have outlined two times why an optional synch would not work and just force the people who like it or don't care (which seem to be a majority of 70% based on the strawpoll where only 1/3 was bend on the idea that it is bad) to also opt out of it.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Alssaran

[Exeeter]

At what point? The idea of fun should always be the focal point. If a game is not fun, then no one will play it. There are many examples where the direction of a game lost sight of that fact and suffered the consequences. You certainly cannot please everyone, but there are some things where it doesn't take a lot of thought to realize that providing for those varying ways to have fun is a no brainer. BW already knows this - hence the option to opt out of 12x XP with the WAM. They just failed to follow through on this permanent implementation.

 

No one is saying fun should never not be the focal point. But people are being sensational when they site other games that have "suffered the consequences" for a bad decision.

 

This is not going to break the game, this is not going to cause a mass exodus of players and all things considered this is going to add more activities worth doing than otherwise.

 

Literally the only arguments that are being made here are

 

"I don't want to deal with mob aggro"

"My levels are mine and should not be taken away from me"

"my idea of fun in swtor is one shotting greys"

"it's immersion breaking"

 

If you value those above, no one can take them from you, it is entirely subjective to the individual, but you can't possibly think those reasons hold any actual water man.

 

I'm willing to bet that a good majority of players are not even giving a ****, not coming on the forums complaining, and when kotfe goes live, will be completely and utterly indifferent about the whole thing.

 

And you are right BW does know how important it is to try and cater to the desires of as many players as possible, within reason.... this is also the forum community that had a vocal bunch demanding the ability to respect your base class.......

 

No one is going to see eye to eye on this but there are realistically more fair compromises for those that are against the sync option, that they can still enjoy the game, as opposed to not having the sync system, effectively hamstringing BW in the long run.

 

And let's be completely honest here, those that want the system to be optional are the same players that are likley going to ignore it completely anyways.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Exeeter

[Clarian]

I would have hated level syncing if it had prevented me from soloing flashpoints or heroics. But since they're introducing solo modes for flashpoints, and changing Heroic 4s to 2s, that's not an issue.

 

And actually it's better this way, because now I can solo them at level, as they come up in the story, rather than having to wait until I'm over-leveled and then go back and do things out of order.

 

Another plus is that if I want to over-level my characters for the purpose of being able to use the appearance of some cool looking gear, I won't to have to worry that I'll then run around one-shotting everything.

 

(Really, a better solution to that would be to disregard level restrictions of items in the costume designer, and for companions, with the new appearance-only system they will have for gear in 4.0, but who knows if or when that will happen.)

 

Also, I wish they had solo versions of ALL flashpoints, but at least we got the story heavy ones.

[Sinapus]

Haven't played it yet. I might hate it, or like the disciplines system, I might find it okay or even *gasp* enjoyable.

[Quraswren]

Haven't played it yet. I might hate it, or like the disciplines system, I might find it okay or even *gasp* enjoyable.

 

and that alone is why the down leveling should be optional.

 

Some might like it and find it enjoyable. Clearly there is another group large enough that having their toons down leveled in a game based on leveling up do not find it enjoyable and nothing about it getting down leveled makes their game more entertaining. So now, what used to be an enjoyable past time is marred with less enjoyment.

 

Put it on the H2 terminal, put it as a similar buff like the makeb GSI terminal.

 

Make it optional and suddenly we're all playing how we want. Those that have played one way for 4 years and those who want something slightly different.

[Alssaran]

Make it optional and suddenly we're all playing how we want. Those that have played one way for 4 years and those who want something slightly different.

 

And once again: If you can point me to statements and informed criticism as to how this system is in any way restrictive to enjoyment or impacts game experience in a negative way, I will glady accept Bioware putting in the effort of coding it in as optional.

 

At the moment the only criticism against the system I can hear is that people are afraid not to solo stuff or farm in peace, which is obviously wrong. This synch will still not add a challenge. All criticism against the system and reasons for making it optional come down to a minority of people feeling impaired, without actually having a disadvantage. And I don't think putting in the effort and the coding work necessary for an optional synch, as well as the possible bugs and exploits of the system, is worth it for a feeling.

 

I have also outlined several times why an optional level synch would kill it for people who enjoy it and force the 70% who are indifferent or like it out of it quite fast.

 

Otherwise you'll have to adapt.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Alssaran

[Quraswren]

And once again: If you can point me to statements and informed criticism as to how this system is in any way restrictive to enjoyment or impacts game experience in a negative way, I will glady accept Bioware putting in the effort of coding it in as optional.

 

Does it or does it not have the chance to make it take longer to farm because of various reasons from mob aggro to a time to kill ratio?

Does it or does it not make heroics take longer to clear?

Does it take my level 65 and reduce him in power in all areas except leave them with a few extra buttons an actual level 18 wont have?

 

The answer is yes to all those in some capacity like it or not. Minimal or not. No matter how much you think it shouldn't matter, it does at this point in SWTOR.

There is nothing I care about for down leveling any of my toons except that I could help a friend out but that can be accomplished as an optional mentoring group buff/debuff or something similar to GSI.

Hell, just the idea of getting down leveled is enough to be negative about it and want optional. After 4 years, down leveling isn't going to bring some positiveity to the SWTOR game that I have been playing that wasn't alrady positive. It decreases that entertainment and that I cannot support that as a forced, all across the board feature.

 

I see where people might like it. I'd vote all day to have it optional.

 

At the moment the only criticism against the system I can hear is that people are afraid not to solo stuff or farm in peace, which is obviously wrong. This synch will still not add a challenge. All criticism against the system and reasons for making it optional come down to a minority of people feeling impaired, without actually having a disadvantage.

 

You keep claiming minority yet I disagree. I think it will be more of a problem than you believe it will be all because it was a change that didn't actually do all that much except put in a bit of an extra hurdle.

 

Not much entertainment added to the game really just some extra hoop to jump through. Why the hell would I want to support that?

Criticism is based on what a change does to the game and is it worth it or not for the stated reasons. So far, down leveling isn't worth it for some 4 year old heroics to be brought back nor because some friends want to level together which can be done without it being forced.

 

There are reasons this down leveling is causing so much discourse. It's not a great path to take in a leveling up game that has been around for 4 years and is entirely based off leveling up.

 

Down leveling decent as an optional game feature. Not so much as a forced feature.

 

Otherwise you'll have to adapt.

Well that wont happen. I've played down leveling games. Not a fan of it. Decent if you want to give it a go but not as a forced thing. So, adapting to it will not ever happen.

 

Just one more thing to add to the "con" pile and when that pile gets to big. I know what to do.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Quraswren

[Reno_Tarshil]

Does it or does it not have the chance to make it take longer to farm because of various reasons from mob aggro to a time to kill ratio?

Does it or does it not make heroics take longer to clear?

Does it take my level 65 and reduce him in power in all areas except leave them with a few extra buttons an actual level 18 wont have?

 

The answer is yes to all those in some capacity like it or not. Minimal or not. No matter how much you think it shouldn't matter, it does at this point in SWTOR.

There is nothing I care about for down leveling any of my toons except that I could help a friend out but that can be accomplished as an optional mentoring group buff/debuff or something similar to GSI.

Hell, just the idea of getting down leveled is enough to be negative about it and want optional. After 4 years, down leveling isn't going to bring some positiveity to the SWTOR game that I have been playing that wasn't alrady positive. It decreases that entertainment and that I cannot support that as a forced, all across the board feature.

 

I see where people might like it. I'd vote all day to have it optional.

 

 

 

You keep claiming minority yet I disagree. I think it will be more of a problem than you believe it will be all because it was a change that didn't actually do all that much except put in a bit of an extra hurdle.

 

Not much entertainment added to the game really just some extra hoop to jump through. Why the hell would I want to support that?

Criticism is based on what a change does to the game and is it worth it or not for the started reasons. So far, down leveling isn't worth it for some 4 year old heroics to be brought back nor because some friends want to level together which can be done without it being forced.

 

there is a reason thsi down leveling is causing so much discourse. It's not a great path to take in a leveling up game that has been around for 4 years and is entirely based off leveling up.

 

Down leveling decent as an optional game feature. Not so much as a forced feature.

 

 

Well that wont happen. I've played down leveling games. Not a fan of it. Decent if you want to give it a go but not as a forced thing. So, adapting to it will not ever happen.

 

Just one more thing to add to the "con" pile and when that pile gets to big. I know what to do.

 

The only thing you're losing is the safety net that comes from being 9 levels higher than a mob.

[Cavadus]

Yup, 10/10. Game should have been this way since launch.

 

Or levels should have been removed and progression/gear made horizontal. Either way, extremely happy with this decision. I can finally help my guild members who are leveling without completely destroying their experience. I'm for anything that makes it easier for me to play with other players which is something this game typically lacks.

 

And on top of that it makes ALL CONTENT IN THE GAME RELEVANT TO EVERY PLAYER. There's no legitimate excuse to oppose level sync.

 

In fact, I'd like to see level-sync work the other direction too so lower level players can go to higher level planets.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Cavadus

[Quraswren]

The only thing you're losing is the safety net that comes from being 9 levels higher than a mob.

 

Well apparently it's still pretty safe either way, they just added some extra time to the same task. So now we have a change that amounts to little more than "Hey go level with your friend" and lets be honest, it doesn't need to be forced to pull that off.

[K_osss]

I'd like level sync to be implemented

[Reno_Tarshil]

Well apparently it's still pretty safe either way, they just added some extra time to the same task. So now we have a change that amounts to little more than "Hey go level with your friend" and lets be honest, it doesn't need to be forced to pull that off.

 

Hypothetically speaking, let's say they continue to follow GW2 and start adding planetary events that give rewards for participating in them? How would you feel in that case?

[Khevar]

Well apparently it's still pretty safe either way, they just added some extra time to the same task. So now we have a change that amounts to little more than "Hey go level with your friend" and lets be honest, it doesn't need to be forced to pull that off.

Personally, I'd prefer it to be implemented a bit like the "Training Dummy Debuffs" or "White Acute Module". You click on something to activate it, and you could include different ones.

 

1. Scale down to max planet level.

2. Scale down to min planet level.

 

Or something.

 

Honestly, I see it as a missed opportunity on Bioware's part. I believe that player set "difficulty levels" is pretty rare in an MMO, and this would be an addition that would actually set TOR above the crowd. The more punishing difficulty could give slightly better rewards perhaps?

 

Unfortunately, when I posted this suggestion, nobody gave two craps about it and it quickly plummeted to page 3 before being merged into the thread where everyone was insulting each other.

 

/le sigh

Edited October 8, 2015 by Khevar

[Quraswren]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say they continue to follow GW2 and start adding planetary events that give rewards for participating in them? How would you feel in that case?

 

Not a simple yes or no in my eyes. But here goes.

As optional yes thats fine but then you have the problem of if the rewards are to great. Like wow, garrisons were heralded as optional however, the reward was so great, it really wasn't. That optional feeling is really a technicality and it's then pretty much a requirement.

 

Fine line in what you are asking from a design perspective and again nothing that couldn't be preserved in an optional setting so playing the game you have been is still entertaining but it doesn't come with the increased reward. Take on the down leveling debuff and better rewards are opened up to you. (lose the buff, lose the reward)

 

But as far as a straight copy of GW2. We'll there is a reason I'm no longer playing that game and down scaling is one.

 

Personally, I'd prefer it to be implemented a bit like the "Training Dummy Debuffs" or "White Acute Module". You click on something to activate it, and you could include different ones.

 

1. Scale down to max planet level.

2. Scale down to min planet level.

 

Or something.

 

Honestly, I see it as a missed opportunity on Bioware's part. I believe that player set "difficulty levels" is pretty rare in an MMO, and this would be an addition that would actually set TOR above the crowd. The more punishing difficulty could give slightly better rewards perhaps?

 

Unfortunately, when I posted this suggestion, nobody gave two craps about it and it quickly plummeted to page 3 before being merged into the thread where everyone was insulting each other.

 

/le sigh

 

I can see so many other options other than just "damnit, force them all" . 4 years of playing SWTOR, enjoying how it was played, this game didn't need down leveling to be forced and yes, BW is missing an opportunity for something a bit more interesting than what forced down leveling does.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Quraswren

[Transcendent]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say they continue to follow GW2 and start adding planetary events that give rewards for participating in them? How would you feel in that case?

 

In that instance it should be level synced to the content. If this was the intention going forward by BioWare, I'm sure they would have mentioned it by now in an effort to negate the qualm of such a system being forced and not optional.

 

However, I think there is also an underlying issue I take with not just level sync, but other changes since SoR was introduced (and even before that). BioWare likes to copy systems they use in other MMO games, instead of coming up with something truly original all by themselves. I'm not saying that's a bad thing in some instances, but really, perhaps they should beta these things prior to deciding to implement them.

 

At least that way they can make a much more informed decision on how the community will react, and also gain much better data telemetry / metrics on how those systems will perform in a live environment. You only have to look at how well bolster was implemented, to see how badly level sync can go wrong if not put through a rigorous QA process (and the bugs ironed out prior to launch, not after). BioWare don't exactly have a shiny track record, I doubt it'll be much different with 4.0.

[Reno_Tarshil]

In that instance it should be level synced to the content. If this was the intention going forward by BioWare, I'm sure they would have mentioned it by now in an effort to negate the qualm of such a system being forced and not optional.

 

However, I think there is also an underlying issue I take with not just level sync, but other changes since SoR was introduced (and even before that). BioWare likes to copy systems they use in other MMO games, instead of coming up with something truly original all by themselves. I'm not saying that's a bad thing in some instances, but really, perhaps they should beta these things prior to deciding to implement them.

 

At least that way they can make a much more informed decision on how the community will react, and also gain much better data telemetry / metrics on how those systems will perform in a live environment. You only have to look at how well bolster was implemented, to see how badly level sync can go wrong if not put through a rigorous QA process (and the bugs ironed out prior to launch, not after). BioWare don't exactly have a shiny track record, I doubt it'll be much different with 4.0.

 

You have to remember that BW doesn't usually mention anything they are going to be doing unless they are absolutely sure they can release it.

 

Also your issue with BW coping other systems in MMOs, most MMOs are just copying off each other all the time. WoW for instance copied the Companion system from here with Bodyguards from Garrisons.

[Transcendent]

You have to remember that BW doesn't usually mention anything they are going to be doing unless they are absolutely sure they can release it.

 

Also your issue with BW coping other systems in MMOs, most MMOs are just copying off each other all the time. WoW for instance copied the Companion system from here with Bodyguards from Garrisons.

 

True, I guess we're still waiting for the roadmap to be released

 

It would be nice if they communicated with their community, but as you said, considering the "better than cross server" that keeps getting thrown back at them, I'm sure they have reasons not to bother. Sad times though when a developer can't at least try to communicate properly anymore.

 

I absolutely know MMOs copy off each other (not just this genre of games either). It would be nice if they could be original in the interpretation of differing systems, and add their own "flavour" to things. Straight out copying? Pretty un-imaginative. That was more of an observation than anything, call it "wishful thinking" that I doubt they'll ever deliver, along with many other things.

[Quraswren]

Mistype Edited October 8, 2015 by Quraswren

[Alssaran]

Does it or does it not have the chance to make it take longer to farm because of various reasons from mob aggro to a time to kill ratio?

Does it or does it not make heroics take longer to clear?

Does it take my level 65 and reduce him in power in all areas except leave them with a few extra buttons an actual level 18 wont have?

 

1. No. You are still an average of 4 levels above the mobs. Aggro range for a level 28 player on a 24-27 planet is minor and not a problem at all.

2. No. We already saw that Musco was able to pretty much two-three shot even golden mobs in an heroic area without any issues. If you think that two hitting a mob is so much worse than one hitting it, you're really a lost cause. Here is a little something I actually love to point out: People claim that they think it is unfair that something they have worked for is taken away. Now you have to work for it. After KotFE that claim is finally substantial. I mean: That's what you want, isn't it? To work for gear.

3. Not really. The abilities you unlock in higher tiers of content (i.g the 57 discipline ability) is still a lot stronger than anything a level 18 toon has. A level 18 toon also doesn't have set bonus. Your level 65 character is still more powerful than anything on the actual level.

 

The answer is yes to all those in some capacity like it or not. Minimal or not. No matter how much you think it shouldn't matter, it does at this point in SWTOR.

There is nothing I care about for down leveling any of my toons except that I could help a friend out but that can be accomplished as an optional mentoring group buff/debuff or something similar to GSI.

Hell, just the idea of getting down leveled is enough to be negative about it and want optional. After 4 years, down leveling isn't going to bring some positiveity to the SWTOR game that I have been playing that wasn't alrady positive. It decreases that entertainment and that I cannot support that as a forced, all across the board feature.

 

I see where people might like it. I'd vote all day to have it optional.

 

 

 

You keep claiming minority yet I disagree. I think it will be more of a problem than you believe it will be all because it was a change that didn't actually do all that much except put in a bit of an extra hurdle.

 

I claim minority because that's what this is. Another claim, just like disciplines. Just like "no new operations at launch". Just like "No new nightmare operations.". A fraction of players disagrees. End of story. There is no evidence that the faction "level synch is bad" is a majority now. It was during all the cases I mentioned above, it still is. Frankly: Most people probably don't care as long as they are still above the planets level.

 

Not much entertainment added to the game really just some extra hoop to jump through. Why the hell would I want to support that?

Criticism is based on what a change does to the game and is it worth it or not for the stated reasons. So far, down leveling isn't worth it for some 4 year old heroics to be brought back nor because some friends want to level together which can be done without it being forced.

 

Yes, it is. You might not consider it "worth it", but I know a lot of people who have never experienced all the Heroics on a planet. Now they can do that and still get an actual reward out of it. This is an active step against what has been a plague to some MMOs since release: Making content obsolete. A lot of time has gone into the base game. Alderaan and Voss are still some of the most beautiful worlds in the game. Now I can appreciate that AND get rewards from that. It finally makes ALL the content in an MMO worth playing to get rewards, not just the most recent patch.

 

Besides: We have no actual way of knowing how level synch will be expanded. It might be the start of some minor open world PvP development. Who knows?

 

 

There are reasons this down leveling is causing so much discourse. It's not a great path to take in a leveling up game that has been around for 4 years and is entirely based off leveling up.

 

So much discourse? Again, this is nothing new. People did this with disciplines, with GSF and with F2P. They always bugged Bioware about it and eventually realized that it wasn't all that bad/was something you could get used to. You still level up in this game. You still unlock the freedom to travel and explore every world by unlocking new levels. Just because older worlds are still a challenge doesn't mean there is no reward for leveling up.

 

Down leveling decent as an optional game feature. Not so much as a forced feature.

 

It can't work as an optional feature. I've pointed that out. Not with grieving, world boss cp stealing and farming materials on a world. The 25% who actually dislike this change turning it off would eventually force the 75% who are indifferent or like it into a situation where they have to turn it off or face a serious disadvantage for it. That would cause the system to go downhill and all the work on it was wasted.

 

I also don't want to think about all the possible ways an optional level synch system can be abused.

 

Well that wont happen. I've played down leveling games. Not a fan of it. Decent if you want to give it a go but not as a forced thing. So, adapting to it will not ever happen.

 

Then you have to move on. Because, guess what? This feature is coming. Bioware hasn't spend a load of money and programming time on this feature and re-designing old heroics just so a forum minority (which this is, again. Go read Ghostcrawlers clarification post about Riots stance on "We know better". Some good insight into forums and negative comments there.) can sour it for the community. And you won't get an optional feature at least until January because the focus is elsewhere. If at all.

 

Just one more thing to add to the "con" pile and when that pile gets to big. I know what to do.

 

Oh, the issue isn't that the pile isn't big enough. The issue is that there is still something inside that pile people want. That's what is keeping them digging through it.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Alssaran