Why scaling should not be optional

[sentientomega]

Second time I've heard this - anyone have numbers on repair costs if you don't die? I thought you only got em for dieing?

 

No specific numbers, but any time you engage enemies and sustain a hit, your gear durability takes a hit. The more you're damaged in a single fight, I believe compounds said durability hits. The more enemies you take on, the more your gear is worn down, it's not nearly as bad as if you're defeated, however.

 

I've no problem with BOP, it still encourages grouping or actual solo content for making proper income then. Also if there are repairs then sure small mob drops of creds to cover that. My main points are I don't want to see people getting steady income from god mode that puts them off other content and also have god mode in a manner that still encourages people to do the content grouped since in reality it is originally grouped content.

 

Also do away with rolls, give everyone random rewards per boss guaranteed. So you roll for a random loot type, not whether you will get loot or not. if you get gear for your roll it's relevant to your char too. That's a good system.

 

If they implemented my suggestion of 10x rewards at damageable level with 2.5x for each player, (I was originally going to suggest 40x more rewards when grouped at damageable levels with 10x per player, but that seemed excessive), for Heroic 2s, 5x, H2+s, 7.5x, H4s, 10x, all divided by how many players actually take part, (For instance, a group of 4 for Oricon H2+ for instance will get 1.875x rewards per player than if they soloed it) nothing else could be a disincentive to group and instead solo group instances above level, except, as I keep saying, dystopian groups.

Edited September 30, 2015 by sentientomega

[Pietrastor]

Aren't we're suppoused to get personalized loot in KOTFE?

 

These Flashpoints also bolster your character, so you never have to worry about being under-geared or under-leveled, and can play with friends of varying levels. As an added bonus, each player can also receive loot specific to their Class and their non-bolstered level, so running these Flashpoints is always beneficial.

 

[...]

 

Just like the new Tactical Flashpoints, each player can get their own individual loot suited for their class from entirely new sets of gear. This will provide the perfect jumping off point for getting you ready to tackle Operations!

 

[...]

 

Each day, a new Story Mode Operation will be available in Group Finder, and will all drop relevant gear for your character.

Or am I misinterpreting it and it's just personalized quest rewards? Ain't those already largely personalized?

[smurftube]

I'll admit I belong to the forced scaling camp. I personally enjoy the game most when I'm taking on mobs that are the same level or higher than mine.

 

That being said, both camps have produced several honest, intelligent and insightful theories on why their position is best for the game or the players.

 

I wonder if it's feasible to have a system that runs more than one version of each open world environment; one where scaling is part of the design and one where it is not. If so, players could choose which version of a planet they want to travel to. It might be something as simple as a check box on the character panel.

 

Then players who want a scaled experience would get it and those that do not would get an experience without scaling. The real downside to something like this is that the player base would be divided; which is always a bad idea for MMO's. But then, we divide ourselves everyday when we choose different activities, so I guess as long as we can pop back and forth from one state to the other, I'd be alright with it.

 

This is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to add that if there ever was a scaling system to be implemented, I'd like to be on equal level with the area I'm in. I'd hate to be scaled higher than the mobs around me. In fact, for me personally, an option to be scaled below would be a welcome aspect of a scaling system.

Edited September 30, 2015 by smurftube

[Sarfux]

What's wrong with wanting to be invulnerable to insignificant filler mobs? I don't want every pigeon I encounter to be a life/death fight. I don't want every mob that agros on me to be able to slow me down or knock me off my freaking mount...we have more than enough delays to doing **** in this game as it is (loading screens).

 

And of course we'd keep our skills and gear, nobody is pretending we wouldn't...but they'd be nerfed versions of those skills. Given this teams brilliant track record with Bolster, something you are familiar with, I can't believe you'd be in favor of this or supporting it in ANY way.

 

IF they implement this, it'll be a mistake of epic proportions. There are too many playstyles players have developed based on how this game has worked for 4 years.

 

TUXs...

 

You know how I already feel about this. But...I still need more information to make up my mind about this. The ONLY THING that would be acceptable to me would have them do it like Guild Wars 2 scaling system and nothing ELSE!

 

I also think this game is unique enough in it's own way where they shouldn't make open world level scaling and make scaling optional in flashpoints. This game was NOT designed in the way to have level scaling throughout. If I damn well fought for that max level character and go back have some fun melting down mobs or feeling epic, that's my choice to do!

 

Now, it would be one thing if TOR were designed as a scaling level mmorpg from the start! But it wasn't! But like I have said this is all rumors. I NEED more info to see. I LOVE swtor, I love the kotor/kotor 2 music in it. I just love the game I have to remain optimistic about it. That's the type of person I am. I won't let myself be disappointed though if it turns out to be true. That's not the way I am. I'll see what happens!!

[TravelersWay]

I don't see any discussion. I just see people defending their opinions and then people doing that thing where they pick out each sentence of the paragraph and then nitpick it with their opinions how they took what the other person said and then it comes full circle again.

 

Why is this thread still going on? We don't even KNOW anything yet.

 

Because BioWare hasn't given us anything else to discuss. The story is the story and we know more about that than most of the details of the changes to the mechanics to the game. Therefore, we have only speculation and datamined information to go on.

 

Again, there's no reason to believe that many players will do without the scaling if it goes in and if it is optional - in fact many have stated that they will use it, but still want to retain the option to be able to play without it as well. I think a system like this would be very beneficial to the game, even more so than a simple mentoring-only system, but it needs to be done correctly. Part of that is ensuring that the system is optional, because there is merit and fun to be had with playing an RPG based game the way we have up to this point, and in fact that way that we have played them for decades.

Edited September 30, 2015 by TravelersWay

[Max_Killjoy]

Something else about this.

 

What's the point of gaining any levels of you can never actually get better against any particular content?

 

What if we don't want the same content to remain "challenging" ( ), but rather want our character to get better against it?

[SelinaH]

Aren't we're suppoused to get personalized loot in KOTFE?

I expect this to be heavily bugged. I wouldn't be surprised to receive a (non-adaptive) bowling shirt with "Thoronmir" embroidered on it in gold thread.

[branmakmuffin]

I doubt there will be open world down-scaling, but at this point I almost hope there will be just because it will poke a finger in the eye of all the whiners.

 

The game is what it is and will be what it will be. If you can't deal with it, go play a different game,

[sentientomega]

Oh great...

 

So, players with legitimate concerns, are whiners? I think punishing people for advocating retention of a wider range of options is just pure malice...

 

Especially since BW:A seems to want to give players the best experience they can, but if they forcibly down-scale everything or whatever, I think I could live with it, in a pinch, just about.

Edited September 30, 2015 by sentientomega

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Do a FP (or something). Have you character not die. Go to vendor. Pay repair bills.

 

Couldn't be bothered hence why asking for numbers.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

No specific numbers, but any time you engage enemies and sustain a hit, your gear durability takes a hit. The more you're damaged in a single fight, I believe compounds said durability hits. The more enemies you take on, the more your gear is worn down, it's not nearly as bad as if you're defeated, however.

 

Interesting, in all this time I've honestly never really noticed.

 

 

If they implemented my suggestion of 10x rewards at damageable level with 2.5x for each player, (I was originally going to suggest 40x more rewards when grouped at damageable levels with 10x per player, but that seemed excessive), for Heroic 2s, 5x, H2+s, 7.5x, H4s, 10x, all divided by how many players actually take part, (For instance, a group of 4 for Oricon H2+ for instance will get 1.875x rewards per player than if they soloed it) nothing else could be a disincentive to group and instead solo group instances above level, except, as I keep saying, dystopian groups

 

All sounds fairly complicated ... all I would like is BOP god mode drops basically scaled to the level of the content. So for most the gear is useless then and the vanity is pure personal vanity and not flooding the GTN.

 

What I've seen it seems that content drops a certain amount of ... stuff heh ... depending what the content was and what your level was when synced ( I assume ). So if you're under 60 basically you will get gear relevant to your level and if over 60 you'll get a certain amount of the new comms ( crystals ).

 

Not sure what it means if you're not scaled, I assume you get nothing at the end and probably get what the encounter usually drops per boss etc. though they may be changing that too. All I've put forward is my opinion on how I would like those drops handled as it really isn't earned rewards but if people do it for BOP then meh ... doesn't affect me in the slightest and if they want to make actual credits they have to challenge themselves to solo scaled content ( heroics ) or group up.

 

It will be interesting to see if you can still solo heroics 4's at scaling since it sort of depends how the scaling works both for your and your companion. 2's ... if we're getting scaled to +2 of the planet then that should still be a breeze.

 

I've never been anti soloing the content, just effectively god moding it for rewards. I.e. farming it on god mode.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Something else about this.

 

What's the point of gaining any levels of you can never actually get better against any particular content?

 

What if we don't want the same content to remain "challenging" ( ), but rather want our character to get better against it?

 

That' s why it would be optional ... nowhere in your "something else" though does it say you should be rewarded for it.

 

Still the levels point does make an interesting debate around how "progress" in games like this works and if it should or will change to a more linear model.

 

Think we have 16 chapters incoming but most likely only 5 levels for all that content. I guess based on all previous content and on how long the chapters are from feedback as to gaining our 5 levels in 5 chapters just playing very casually. If they then don't add more levels for the rest of the chapters then that's 11 chapters with no levels to gain so it will be interesting to see how they handle the "carrot on the stick" mentality from there on.

[jstankaroslo]

I never really understood the invulnerability with high levels. I mean if you are level 30 you basically can't hurt level 40 mob or toon. It was always odd to me, as more natural would be -you can do damage to higher level enemy, but they have more hp and hit much harder. Not to mention their abilities.

 

Now it is like we're bulletproof. High level character can just stand inside a swarm of low level mobs and be just unhurt. Not a scratch. This is a bit unrealistic to me.

 

IMO the mobs should always be able to hurt us. Best way would be not to change the stats -so Balmorran soldier with 2500HP still don't stand a chance against level 60 40k health veteran, but 10 of those can pose a threat.

That would mean no bullet-poof heroes, no facerolling through low level planets, no going directly through the mob without a scratch. But the feeling of ones own power would remain, level 60 would still feel powerful o Tatooine.

 

And that way, there would be no risk of false bolster -if stats are not changed.

[sentientomega]

Interesting, in all this time I've honestly never really noticed.

 

You're welcome. I'm pretty sure that's how it works, but I can't be 100% sure as to damage sustained during engagements, as I've not been keeping detailed information as to depleted durability. I do know that it's higher for characters than companions though...

 

All sounds fairly complicated ... all I would like is BOP god mode drops basically scaled to the level of the content. So for most the gear is useless then and the vanity is pure personal vanity and not flooding the GTN.

 

I just wanted to offer more incentive for people to group, by making rewards higher for grouped people doing content and sustaining very noticeable damage.

 

As I understand it, with, say, Red Reaper in mind, the oranges are BoP. Unless, we're talking about greens from the FPs.

 

What I've seen it seems that content drops a certain amount of ... stuff heh ... depending what the content was and what your level was when synced ( I assume ). So if you're under 60 basically you will get gear relevant to your level and if over 60 you'll get a certain amount of the new comms ( crystals ).

 

What's this about, sorry?

 

Not sure what it means if you're not scaled, I assume you get nothing at the end and probably get what the encounter usually drops per boss etc. though they may be changing that too. All I've put forward is my opinion on how I would like those drops handled as it really isn't earned rewards but if people do it for BOP then meh ... doesn't affect me in the slightest and if they want to make actual credits they have to challenge themselves to solo scaled content ( heroics ) or group up.

 

With Red Reaper as it is now, you get cash from every mob, items from the bosses as well as credits, and credits/comms when you turn the mission in.

 

If this, and the above quoted section is about the new FPs and Ops, I think they're overwriting how they're done; were it up to me, I'd keep the old content, and add the new changes in separate instances. When you do the dialogue to get, Kaon, for instance, you get a list of say: 1. SM 2. HM. 3. Classic SM 4. Classic HM The last two being how it is now. The first two being bolstered and GF available, that's if my notion got implemented.

 

By making actual credits, do you mean from GTN gear sales? While we're at it, please define actual credits.

 

It will be interesting to see if you can still solo heroics 4's at scaling since it sort of depends how the scaling works both for your and your companion. 2's ... if we're getting scaled to +2 of the planet then that should still be a breeze.

 

I've never been anti soloing the content, just effectively god moding it for rewards. I.e. farming it on god mode.

 

A breeze for you, maybe, and more power to you for that. But I think you can see a million casual players' optic nerves now when they read what you wrote there. Also, remember to differentiate between 2 and 2+. As long as I can solo the H2+ on Oricon at 65, and anything easier, and still get some credits etc, I'll be quite content. Not that I haven't soloed it as a madness sorcerer with Xalek tanking at 60, with 186 gear on both, but it feels distinctly nightmarish to do, and the uncertainty is real, and not so fun for me. Especially as, the higher the gear, the more inflated the repair bills.

 

Define rewards, please. All rewards, or just a specific kind, or a limit on any particular kind gained?

Edited September 30, 2015 by sentientomega

[MeNaCe-NZ]

What's this about, sorry?

 

That as I understand it from leaked information from pts etc. is how it's more or less working in 4.0, of course open to change before launch.

What I don't know is how it changes existing rewards etc.

 

By making actual credits, do you mean from GTN gear sales? While we're at it, please define actual credits.

 

Guessing I meant mass larger amounts of credits than just mob drops ( which is all you'd get if everything was bop ).

 

A breeze for you, maybe, and more power to you for that. But I think you can see a million casual players' optic nerves now when they read what you wrote there. Also, remember to differentiate between 2 and 2+. As long as I can solo the H2+ on Oricon at 65, and anything easier, and still get some credits etc, I'll be quite content. Not that I haven't soloed it as a madness sorcerer with Xalek tanking at 60, with 186 gear on both, but it feels distinctly nightmarish to do, and the uncertainty is real, and not so fun for me. Especially as, the higher the gear, the more inflated the repair bills.

 

Define rewards, please. All rewards, or just a specific kind, or a limit on any particular kind gained?

 

*shrug* not sure, find most 2+ heroics fairly easy by a planet end when geared to the max point of that planet/heroic so I imagine being scaled to +2 levels above that would make it pretty simply really, more challenging that open world content but still quite easy.

 

I'm not here to force people to try solo group content but I think most should be able to do 2's when scaled +2 to the planet level which in some cases is 6 over the heroic level.

 

As for oricon @ 65 ... if not scaled that's going to be pretty much god mode based on how we've seen previous content scale before damage was minimal.

 

Rewards ... as I said nothing sellable for the most part and at the level the content was designed for if not scaled. Vanity ... meh who cares.

 

Interestingly something else I'm sure I saw mentioned is that people joining groups of someone not scaled won't even gain exp? That is a level 10 on a level 10 planet does content with a level 60 not scaled = no exp gain. That might have been pure rumour though, not following confirmed unofficial information super closely lately.

 

If a lot of these do come ot pass you think it's got to have a lot to do with slowing down gold sellers more than punishing god moder legit players imo.

[Pietrastor]

1 thing many ain't taking into acount are companion changes and how will that aid soloing stuff. We're talking max/perfectly geared companions that can perform all roles and will heal even in tank/dps specs. How mnay of us had perfectly geared companions while leveling? Or even at endgame? Until Yavin boxes came in, I only had a few companions across my 8 chars who had good gear.

[Alanbra]

These are the people who gave us tank gear with accuracy and alacrity, enhancements with defense and accuracy for dps, and so on. What makes you think that companions will have good stats in 4.0?

[Max_Killjoy]

Oh great...

 

So, players with legitimate concerns, are whiners? I think punishing people for advocating retention of a wider range of options is just pure malice...

 

At this point I don't even need to ask who you're responding to, there are a handful of candidates for whom the shoe fits perfectly...

[Sarfux]

Man, can we just stop this already? It's just bickering now back and forth, back and forth. Just chill. We haven't even got info on this to see if it's true! You could be all bickering over a stupid rumor.

[TUXs]

Man, can we just stop this already? It's just bickering now back and forth, back and forth. Just chill. We haven't even got info on this to see if it's true! You could be all bickering over a stupid rumor.

We're 3 weeks away from a potentially game altering change...people HAVE asked for confirmation from Bioware...this isn't "bickering", it's debate over a growing and real concern players have.

 

If it's true, and it's not optional, it will be a HUGE mistake.

 

What I've heard is that you'll be scaled to 2 levels BELOW the planets cap...meaning it won't be some walk in the part like so many people pretend it'll be, absolutely everything would aggro on you and every planet would become a PITA to visit.

 

After how messed up Bolster is, and has been since it was introduced, I have ZERO faith in Bioware's ability to implement anything like this without massive issues.

 

Call it whining or bickering if you like...that doesn't change the fact that this is a very legitimate topic with potentially HUGE ramifications to the entire game.

[Rhyltran]

Man, can we just stop this already? It's just bickering now back and forth, back and forth. Just chill. We haven't even got info on this to see if it's true! You could be all bickering over a stupid rumor.

 

Look, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not saying the game will die but people blindly saying "I have faith in the devs and I don't think it's going to be as bad as people think." "You're all being irrational and paranoid." "Fine, just go vote with your wallet." "The game will be fine without you." are the same lines that were said in SWG, Tabula Rasa, Warhammer Online, Matrix Online, etc right up to their death. Faith in the devs did not save the game. Telling people to just go didn't save the game. Telling people they are being irrational or that they just hate change didn't save the game. Heck, claiming that they don't know what the majority wants or not or that that the forum is just a small percent of the player base didn't save the game.

 

You know what might have? If people asked more questions. If more people were concerned and voiced their opinion. If more people stood up and asked the devs to respond so they can see exactly what they were getting and provide feedback on it. These things might have saved those games. Devs are sometimes wrong and sometimes what you want isn't going to be well received.

 

We were supposed to get a blog last week about the whole leveling changes but when someone told me to wait (for that week) I told them Bioware hasn't been delivering on their promises when it comes to information about the expansion. I was right about that. Here we are, a week later after their supposed blog was supposed to come out, and I think it has to do with these threads. I think they're taking a double take because they realized it's not being well received.

 

You can say "Guild Wars Guild Wars Guild Wars" all you want but the thing is this isn't guild wars and most of the people here aren't playing guild wars. If we wanted Guild Wars we'd already be over there playing it. Not to mention the reason their scaling works that way is due to cutting corners. I played on release and there's no way doing all the quests once it will let you hit max level. You have to do the areas over and over again. To make that fun they enabled downscaling so you can group with other people and repeat the content. The downscaling existed because there wasn't enough content.

 

It was also used in conjunction with their skill based system. The game wasn't designed around levels but your personal player skill and the ability to avoid attacks. SWTOR is a level based game and part of a level based game is leveling up, becoming more powerful, and yes outgearing/outleveling content.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Rhyltran

[TUXs]

I doubt there will be open world down-scaling, but at this point I almost hope there will be just because it will poke a finger in the eye of all the whiners.

Wow...antagonize much? Glad to know where you stand bran...not that I ever had any doubt.

[Rhyltran]

I doubt there will be open world down-scaling, but at this point I almost hope there will be just because it will poke a finger in the eye of all the whiners.

 

The game is what it is and will be what it will be. If you can't deal with it, go play a different game,

 

Wake me up when you start caring about the game. There's plenty of people who legitimately support the world downscaling but I'm convinced after this post you have a very venomous view of the game itself.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Uruare]

I feel ultimately indifferent to this, shocking as that is even to me.

 

I can see some potential pros and cons. I personally like being able to roflstomp around in much lower level stuff, but my jimmies aren't feeling rustled to imagine it all with level scaling either.

 

I'll be fine either way.

[Quraswren]

These are the people who gave us tank gear with accuracy and alacrity, enhancements with defense and accuracy for dps, and so on. What makes you think that companions will have good stats in 4.0?

 

We were just recently talking about that very thing in guild.

 

It was really nice to mod your companion just right to be extremely effective with dailies and whatever you felt like doing.

 

BW picking and choosing what a companion should have is a bit worrisome. We've seen how they create gear and what goes where. It's a bit screwed up.

 

I can only hope companion stats aren't screwed up in the same way they make many mods and enhancements.

 

As far as down-scaling goes. I think it's a neat feature as an option. They ability to go to an older place and make it a hurdle again. Thats game play some might enjoy. No reason to not have it as an option.

 

But it better be optional because there are just as many that don't give a rats ***** about having their jedi battlemaster turned into a padawan simply because he decided to go visit his old stomping grounds.