August Livestream Wrap-up

[Max_Killjoy]

How so?

 

Gearing comps for multiple roles as it stands right now- Main role, DPS (if that isn't main role), PvP (for arguments' sake). Companion of example- Mako.

 

Healing:

Head, arms, two implants, earpiece, boots, pants, shirt, belt, hands, Blaster, knife,

twelve pieces of gear

DPS:

Twelve more pieces.

PvP:

Twelve more pieces.

 

That is twenty four pieces of gear in storage all the time for just one companion in the current Healer/DPS options Mako has, or tank/DPS options the tank comps have.

 

Requirements for each role is different from role to role (extreme but Tank Jugg- Defense, End, Shield, Absorb, Strength. DPS Jugg- Strength, Power, Crit, Surge to increase crit chances). So keeping several sets of gear.

 

Sounds like things got simpler now that we have have untraditional roles too.

 

The newly-created issue of all-role companions could easily have been fixed with a change to how companion stances work. A minimum of ingenuity could have given us the best of both worlds, instead of ditching meaty mechanical goodness for extra frosting on the cake.

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

The newly-created issue of all-role companions could easily have been fixed with a change to how companion stances work. A minimum of ingenuity could have given us the best of both worlds, instead of ditching meaty mechanical goodness for extra frosting on the cake.

 

And, again:

 

That doesn't deal with the fact that you'd have to have gear for each of those specs that you want to use, especially when switching from a Tank to a Healer/DPS. So if you want to actually be able to switch them like that freely, you have to have not just one set of gear, but two. Or three, since it'll be all three. Making this change removes that requirement which means you switch between those specs freely without having to have 2-3 sets of gear per companion.

 

It also completely avoids the issue of companions that haven't been geared, are forced upon you by the story, etc, that wouldn't otherwise have gear and would thus be gimped immensely when you bring them out. Or, to put it more simply, say you like most of your companions and would like to alternate between them (can say that myself for the Jedi Knight, for sure). If you want to do that, you'd either need to get all of them gear (which could get expensive depending on how many you like, even using basic comms that'd be really expensive) or just deal with them having no stats and being useless. This removes that requirement as well, meaning you can freely switch between those companions while only worrying about their appearance (if applicable) and not the stats of their gear.

[Max_Killjoy]

And, again:

 

Are you unable to imagine or contemplate a system in which different stances would allow the companion to take on different roles without swapping out all their gear?

Edited August 29, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Actually, yes, it would.

 

Or are you unable to imagine a system in which the stances would allow the companion to take on different roles without swapping out all their gear?

 

Explain to me how exactly that would differ from what this new change is, considering in order to do so the stats would have to be tied to the stance and not the gear thus taking away the customization you're claiming you'd gain in this case.

 

You would have no choice in that case as far as Surge vs. Alacrity or anything else in that nature since you couldn't tie the stats to the gear in that way in order for a companion to take on a tank role and heal role without changing gear.

 

So, you're essentially suggesting what we're getting.

[Max_Killjoy]

Explain to me how exactly that would differ from what this new change is, considering in order to do so the stats would have to be tied to the stance and not the gear thus taking away the customization you're claiming you'd gain in this case.

 

You would have no choice in that case as far as Surge vs. Alacrity or anything else in that nature since you couldn't tie the stats to the gear in that way in order for a companion to take on a tank role and heal role without changing gear.

 

So, you're essentially suggesting what we're getting.

 

Rough concept, just off the top of my head, without being paid however much Bioware pays their team of "expert" developers to actually do this, or spending several work weeks on their payroll refining it:

 

1) The gear you give them sets the baseline for all their stats, but the effects is adjusted to account for how stances would now work.

 

2) Each stance gives the companion a scaled set of whatever stats the role that stance is for actually needs, and would swap out some or all of their powers/skills.

 

Thus, put the companion in a tank stance, and they get better at soaking damage and generating agro. Etc. But, their baseline is still determined by the player's choices. A companion in crit-heavy gear would always be giving up something else for more crit, or whatever.

 

 

Of course, some players might freak out and cry for Bioware to hold them if they realized this potentially allowed for the terror of hybrid companions...

 

 

And you can simplify this by giving the companions 2 roles each, not three. For the Warrior, Vette should always have had a healer option or healing secondary powers. Vette as a tank, though? Really?

Edited August 29, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Reno_Tarshil]

Rough concept, just off the top of my head, without being paid however much Bioware pays their team of "expert" developers to actually do this, or spending several work weeks on their payroll refining it:

 

1) The gear you give them sets the baseline for all their stats, but the effects is adjusted to account for how stances would now work.

 

2) Each stance gives the companion a scaled set of whatever stats the role that stance is for actually needs, and would swap out some or all of their powers/skills.

 

Thus, put the companion in a tank stance, and they get better at soaking damage and generating agro. Etc. But, their baseline is still determined by the player's choices. A companion in crit-heavy gear would always be giving up something else for more crit, or whatever.

 

 

Of course, some players might freak out and cry for Bioware to hold them if they realized this potentially allowed for the terror of hybrid companions...

 

 

And you can simplify this by giving the companions 2 roles each, not three. For the Warrior, Vette should always have had a healer option or healing secondary powers. Vette as a tank, though? Really?

 

What you are attempting to suggest is basically what we are being given. Any companion can be any role and will be boosted accordingly, why are you trying to argue against this? Because it's not as complex as you want it to be for complexity sake?

[BlueShiftRecall]

I’ve been wondering at the end of the livestream when they showed that clip with Kira/T7/Doc and it was Kira that was speaking to the JK if whether or not this will change based on romances as in would Kira still be the one talking with us if we were a female JK who romanced Doc and so would he then be talking to the JK and flying the ship instead?

 

Also can't wait till I get to play this

 

Didn't add spoiler tags as we're talking about the livestream and that clip was in it.

Edited August 29, 2015 by BlueShiftRecall

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Rough concept, just off the top of my head, without being paid however much Bioware pays their team of "expert" developers to actually do this, or spending several work weeks on their payroll refining it:

 

1) The gear you give them sets the baseline for all their stats, but the effects is adjusted to account for how stances would now work.

 

2) Each stance gives the companion a scaled set of whatever stats the role that stance is for actually needs, and would swap out some or all of their powers/skills.

 

Thus, put the companion in a tank stance, and they get better at soaking damage and generating agro. Etc.

 

 

Of course, some players might freak out and cry for Bioware to hold them if they realized this potentially allowed for the terror of hybrid companions...

 

You've still done nothing to explain to me how this still allows you to customize their stats such as Surge or Shield Rating, since those are tied to the roles and thus wouldn't be able to be "customized". If you're meaning to say you'd just gear them up in "generic" gear and then it applies whatever stats that stance needs (judging from the baseline you mentioned, so you'd be applying main stat and endurance plus amount of other stats), which still wouldn't allow you to customize the stats you get, only their allocation. So you'd be able to min/max their endurance over their main stat or vice versa or the amount of the other stats compared to those two, but the customization you're saying you'd be losing with the current system would also be lost here (to take my example from my previous post, you couldn't make a choice between Surge and Alacrity there since those are role specific). It sounds very similar to the baseline being taken from the PC's level and then the role applying the stats that they'd need, which again makes it very similar to what we're actually getting only it has a disadvantage because...

 

...none of that addresses the fact that this new system will allow for all companions to stay caught up so you wouldn't have to gear up 5 companions if you want to use 5. It'll eliminate problems from the core game where specific companions are needed but haven't been geared up, or where a companion becomes unavailable when they're the companion you like and have used to that point. Both of these things happen frequently at the moment, to the point where a gear set was included in one of the missions to help (only it's found late in that specific mission so you have to deal with all the enemies as is until that point). So this is a huge Quality of Life improvement in that respect while also giving people who can't gear all the companions they want to use for whatever reason (spend their comms gearing alts or just people with huge amounts of alts that like several of the companions for those classes and would use them all) a way to still be able to use more than just their "favorite" companion while not gimping themselves in the process.

 

Examples of the story mentions, obviously spoilers so don't click if you haven't finished the original storylines:

 

 

The Knight's final mission is the one I was alluding to with the gear set, as you have to use T7 for the final mission. On all of my Knights I'd stopped using T7 by Balmorra at the latest and didn't keep up with his gear because I was busy keeping up with my own, so hitting that mission and being stuck with T7 in level 30-ish gear at best for a level 50 mission is horrible.

 

Or, Corellia for the Imperial Agent. Kaliyo is unavailable for that entire planet, so if you used her primarily and only had her geared up then when you get to Corellia you're going to either be stuck gearing up a different companion that you hadn't used to that point or you'll be lugging around a paperweight and doing all the battles practically solo.

 

 

Even with all of that said, nobody has said that there aren't other ways this could have been done. I'm sure there are. But contrary to what you've been saying throughout this topic, the way they're choosing to implement it has its own benefits. As I've said before, you're welcome to not like the exchange and prefer the old system. That's your taste, your choice, your opinion, whatever you file it under. No point in arguing it. But to continue to consistently deny the benefits this system will bring to other players, downplaying it to "only adding a minor upgrade in appearance choices" when there's more to it, is dishonest and outright misleading to the uninformed.

 

EDIT: To address the edits you added.

 

Etc. But, their baseline is still determined by the player's choices. A companion in crit-heavy gear would always be giving up something else for more crit, or whatever.

 

So, in this system, how would it differentiate between those stances for that crit rating? How would it know that you didn't want that crit rating for your Tank stance since customization at the moment allows for it (and cunning Assassins and what not)? Where do you draw the line there for what's part of the baseline and what stance that baseline is considered for and where, then, does that put the line of loss of customization?

 

Everything after the first paragraph of my original post still applies.

 

And you can simplify this by giving the companions 2 roles each, not three. For the Warrior, Vette should always have had a healer option or healing secondary powers. Vette as a tank, though? Really?

 

This would be, in essence, restricting us from having new customization options simply because you can't see a certain companion in a certain role. This new system allows for you to take any companion you want in any role you want, so you can have the companion you actually like in the role you're most comfortable having them in. That's a great addition in customization and variety that you're arguing shouldn't be used at all, because of some companions not looking right in specific roles. I will leave this with a simple "I disagree" since this is more opinion based, although I will say it confuses me as I thought you were wanting more customization, not less.

Edited August 29, 2015 by The-Kaitou-Kid

[Max_Killjoy]

So take a few minutes and gear T7, either in some cheapo 50 greens, or in some actual moddable droid gear with level 50 mods. You make it sound like it's some sort of terrible, days-long chore. Hell, on T7, you don't even have to worry about appearance at all.

 

 

And yes, in fact, you'd still be able to put Surge ( although... why? ) or Shield or whatever on the companion, the stance would make a tank without Shield a "good enough" tank, or a healer with Alacarity a "good enough" healer.

 

At any rate, it's just a rough "off the cuff" idea, that I specifically said I wasn't going to take weeks to refine into something perfect -- and it's just one idea, I'm sure there are other possibilities.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

So take a few minutes and gear T7, either in some cheapo 50 greens, or in some actual moddable droid gear with level 50 mods. You make it sound like it's some sort of terrible, days-long chore. Hell, on T7, you don't even have to worry about appearance at all.

 

I never said it was a days long chore. It's a hassle, and a waste of credits/commendations for those who wouldn't be using T7 for those things. Especially since moddable droid parts aren't cheap. You can grab the cheapo greens, sure, but again. Waste of credits. Same goes for the other situation I mentioned. Went through that myself, hadn't known about it beforehand and ended up having to completely leave the planet and spend a bunch of credits on the GTN to get a different companion some gear to use. It's inconvenient, and it's completely eliminated by this new system.

 

And yes, in fact, you'd still be able to put Surge ( although... why? ) or Shield or whatever on the companion, the stance would make a tank without Shield a "good enough" tank, or a healer with Alacarity a "good enough" healer.

 

At any rate, it's just a rough "off the cuff" idea, that I specifically said I wasn't going to take weeks to refine into something perfect -- and it's just one idea, I'm sure there are other possibilities.

 

Yes, absolutely, there are more possibilities. What we're getting is an equally valid option, though. You're welcome to dislike it as I've said, but again, it has benefits. Way more benefits than you've given it credit for, more than just appearance, benefits that will make it a positive change for a lot of players (a good lot of players that have posted in this topic, for example). The fact that you don't agree with the change doesn't make it objectively bad.

[Exly]

I must be missing them then. I have checked the DevTracker and have not seen a BioWare post stating that we will be able to use companions from other classes. I see a lot of people speculating however.

 

Check post #233 for where the answer to the first question was yes.

[RAVM]

For you guys using T7 as an example of why this new gear-less system is so wonderful, it's the only example in the entire game where it inconveniently forces you to use a certain companion with bad gear, and Bioware could have easily done better for the player had they wanted to. Every other time you have to use a companion, it's when you first get them and they have greens appropriate for the level of the quest.

 

Here's the bottom line for me. We might go two years without a level increase. We get the expansion, we hit 65, and for the next two years or so, we're stuck with companions that can't be improved anymore.

Edited August 29, 2015 by RAVM

[Max_Killjoy]

For you guys using T7 as an example of why this new gear-less system is so wonderful, it's the only example in the entire game where it inconveniently forces you to use a certain companion with bad gear, and Bioware could have easily done better for the player had they wanted to. Every other time you have to use a companion, it's when you first get them and they have greens appropriate for the level of the quest.

 

Here's the bottom line for me. We might go two years without a level increase. We get the expansion, we hit 65, and for the next two years or so, we're stuck with companions that can't be improved anymore.

 

Good point on T7 -- other than the one starter companion for each class who has their little companion missions, that's (as far as I recall) the only time you're really pushed into using a particular companion at higher level, and it's a droid at that. Very much a worst-case-scenario example.

 

And even better point -- this change will mean that the ONLY time we can upgrade the effectiveness of our companions, is when there are new levels. And even then, it's not really an upgrade, it's scaled to the character level, so in relative terms it's just treading water, and nothing more.

 

New mods or new gear in the interim between major expansions will mean NOTHING for companions. So, we're giving up not just customization, but also basic "improvability", for... well, really, nothing much in return.

 

(EDIT -- missed where improvability was "corrected" to improbability.)

Edited August 29, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Rizartha]

Are you unable to imagine or contemplate a system in which different stances would allow the companion to take on different roles without swapping out all their gear?

 

Yeah, problem is you have been ******** all over it since it was announced

 

*Edit*

 

*sigh* Why am I feeding the troll...

Edited August 29, 2015 by Rizartha

[Rizartha]

For you guys using T7 as an example of why this new gear-less system is so wonderful, it's the only example in the entire game where it inconveniently forces you to use a certain companion with bad gear, and Bioware could have easily done better for the player had they wanted to. Every other time you have to use a companion, it's when you first get them and they have greens appropriate for the level of the quest.

.

 

Well, they did tuck a destroyed droid that had a full set of gear for T7 inside the instance, easy to miss if you werent looking.

 

But what was worse, when I did my Jedi Knight playthrough... I made him a tank, and T7 is a tank.... things took forever to die....

[Rizartha]

Here's the bottom line for me. We might go two years without a level increase. We get the expansion, we hit 65, and for the next two years or so, we're stuck with companions that can't be improved anymore.

 

Actually...

 

We got a Level increase with Rise of the Hutt Cartel [50-55]

 

Didn't get one with Forged alliances

 

We got a level increase with Shadow of Revan [55-60]

 

We are getting a level increase with Fallen Empire... [60-65]

 

Seems pretty good odds on the next expansion giving us another level increase in 6 months or so?

 

Well, given that they are changing how they are doing expansions it may not be 6 months, but we will likely get another level cap increase

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

For you guys using T7 as an example of why this new gear-less system is so wonderful, it's the only example in the entire game where it inconveniently forces you to use a certain companion with bad gear, and Bioware could have easily done better for the player had they wanted to. Every other time you have to use a companion, it's when you first get them and they have greens appropriate for the level of the quest.

 

This isn't true. I gave another example in my post of at least one more case where it comes up (in another form, somewhat), namely:

 

 

Kaliyo for the Imperial Agent's missions on Corellia. Kaliyo is the first tank you get in the game and, personally, the companion I used for my entire Sniper run. Had gotten used to running with a tank on my Gunslinger with similar spec, so getting Kaliyo so early kinda pushed me that way again. Problem is, Kaliyo gets made unavailable for the entirety of the Agent's time on Corellia so if you don't have anybody else geared up, your next best option would be SCORPIO in green gear that's two planets behind. I ended up gearing Lokin up a bit through the GTN, although thanks to the relative scarcity of armor at the time (not sure if I hit the market at a bad time or what) it wasn't as cheap as I'd have hoped and thus I couldn't get him as much, leaving him somewhat underpowered throughout the entire thing.

 

 

And, more to the point, these points are part of why I feel this benefits players. As mentioned, the other example of being able to use 5-6 companions on a whim without having to buy each of them on-level gear and mods, and be able to switch their roles at any time without having to swap gear assuming you even have gear for each of those specs, is also a pretty big benefit in my opinion.

 

Here's the bottom line for me. We might go two years without a level increase. We get the expansion, we hit 65, and for the next two years or so, we're stuck with companions that can't be improved anymore.

 

For one thing, on the simplest level that's just not true. You can get the expansion, hit 65, then increase their influence levels afterward which will continue to improve their performance as confirmed by Musco in this thread. How much that can be done and to what degree, we don't know yet, but it can be done. Presence as well but that doesn't mean a whole lot at max level at the moment. You're also assuming that by "level" it's just going to take a generic default gear level for that specific character level and that's their effective "gear level" for the rest of eternity. We don't know that for sure and it could very well be based upon the PC's gear level, for example (certainly possible given the bolster system). Or perhaps even if it is just based upon "level" flat out, who's to say they won't increase that effectiveness as the potential player effectiveness rises?

 

Don't get me wrong, you bring up a good point and it's something I'd love to hear from Musco about if this post doesn't get buried if/when he answers more questions, but it's not something I'd consider a death nail to this idea right off the bat, especially considering we don't even know if it'll actually be an issue depending on how the system is implemented. The system itself, in my opinion, is a great improvement over what we have at the moment and thus a step in the right direction. Not perfect, though, so stuff like what you mention would be a good thing to think about as far as improvements go.

Edited August 29, 2015 by The-Kaitou-Kid

[Bugattiboy]

One added note for the second bullet (I have seen this asked as well) Influence will also add to a Companions combat effectiveness.

 

So if you didn't grind all your companions to 10k affection there's going to be a real, quantifiable reduction in their combat effectiveness? That's totally not cool Eric. Why are you guys forcing another grind on us if we want our companion to have max combat effectiveness?

Edited August 29, 2015 by Bugattiboy

[Argonloris]

Hey Kurin,

 

Some keen eyed viewers noticed this as a part of our Livestream last night, that is why I made the switch in reference from affection. Also as a reminder, let's all be careful on the forums when referencing datamined content.

 

Influence in simple terms, is affection under a different name. There were some system reasons why we made the name change but ultimately it functions in largely the same way. We will likely talk more about Influence when we talk about your Character's Alliance.

 

-eric

 

Does this mean companion gifts will still be effective and that they will work on the new companions as well? If so does that mean we will see them reintroduced in companion missions for certain crew skills (treasure hunting, underworld trading, diplomacy, and investigation)

[Griff_Simmons]

So if you didn't grind all your companions to 10k affection there's going to be a real, quantifiable reduction in their combat effectiveness? That's totally not cool Eric. Why are you guys forcing another grind on us if we want our companion to have max combat effectiveness?

 

Well Guess it is time to farm Companion Gifts and get that affection level up to 10000 on each companion before you set off on the new Xpac mate.... speaking of which I probably should do the same haha

[shamefulweevil]

Not sure if this has been asked yet or not, but you have mentioned that companions will scale to your current level, but what about endgame, I know that for me personally, i gear my companions in current elite gear so that i can run through dailies and what not solo, so how is end-game companion gearing going to work? Also, it has been mentioned before that once the new story has been started, you wont be able to go back and do old missions, does that include the dailies?

[Alanbra]

I've been trying to skim through all 60 pages, and I have to say these changes seem awful.

 

Companions no longer have bonuses to crafting so they're now worse in that regard.

 

All companions will essentially be bolstered to stats depending on our level and influence. This means I can no longer gear my companion with the stats I want and augment so for me, my companion I use will be less effective. Plus we have to depend on Bioware's rather questionable choice on what stats they should use.

 

All companions will be able to be set to dps/heal/tank. I'm assuming they will no longer use their own special attacks they had which in some cases was a lot of fun. As an example, Bowdaar got me trouble a lot of times with wookie toss, but it was fun to see.

 

I also wonder about activating a specific companion ability, for instance, having a healer start off a fight by having him use his cc. Will we be able to micromanage our companion abilities?

 

Right now dps comps come in two flavors, ranged and melee. How will this change with choosing the dps option for them? Will we be seeing Vette in dps stance running up with her two pistols and shooting at point blank range? Or will they default to range and we'll see Khem damaging the bad guys at 30m with his sword?

 

In the stream I assume Lana was in heal stance? It didn't seem like she was doing much of anything really. How effective will the new comp ai be?

 

I have to say, I'm more worried about companions now after the stream than I was before it.

[Lord_of_Mu]

I think some other people commenting in this thread have touched on this a little.

 

From a cosmetic and choice point of view the companion changes are amazing. However the question of stat allocation and companion relevance come to mind. Can we assume that companions in the tanking roles will be optimized to be the best they can be in terms of defensive stats, healers have an exceptional amount of power, and companions with the necessary accuracy?

 

Second question relates to the limited nature of the scaling. Having companions scale with loyalty and level is great, but from my current understanding that seems like it creates a glass ceiling effect. Presently I keep my companions in a fairly min/maxed state for situations where a pug in a flashpoint might not be available in a timely manner, and because it helps my companions to be more successful in the role that they are performing as my own character's gear gets better.

 

I suggested this before, but is there any room to consider including the player's stat budget or at the very least average item grade to act as an additional modifier to companions so that companions are always able to remain relevant and competitive with the player? Essentially, min/maxed at all times.

[Narratja]

One added note for the second bullet (I have seen this asked as well) Influence will also add to a Companions combat effectiveness.

 

No they will not. Now all Companions will simply just be better at Crew Skills the higher their Influence is.

 

Thank you for clarifying this! With this and as were said, that KOTFE is all about “making choices matter” and that companions are "super important" and "making your decisions impact your companions as much as their decisions/actions impact you" the following question really bothers me:

 

 

Q: Will 'ESC' work again after fade out started or will you give us an alternative e.g. not only an "Accept"-button, but also a "Decline"-button, which works like "reset" making us able to start the dialog again from the beginning?

 

 

Pretty, pretty please do so, because without it, KOTFE will only be 1/3 of the fun it could be, since we will see only 1 of 3 answers or play in permanent fear of the start of the fade out. I’m wishing so badly for this, I even would be glad if it would return /come as option I have to buy from the cartel market.

[PavSalco]

Also, it has been mentioned before that once the new story has been started, you wont be able to go back and do old missions, does that include the dailies?

It was precisely said to be STORY missions like your class missions.

"Every unfinished class story, companion story and the other storylike quest lines (like Rishi/Yavin, Ziost) will disappear and cannot be finished anymore."

Edited August 29, 2015 by PavSalco