For those who criticize Bioware for focusing on story/solo play......

[Grayseven]

But if you start discarding things because they skew the metrics, where would you stop?

 

Do you discard periods of time long after the release of the last major content update but before a new content update is announced because people are bored and not playing as much as they would with new content?

 

Do you discount the metrics soon after launch when players left in droves because there wasn't enough end-game?

 

Do you discount the metrics when the announcement of the KofFE because all major game content announcements and freebie offerings bring in subs?

 

The key to metrics is not simply the numbers but the reason for the numbers. And the more data you have to accumulate and sift through the more difficult it is to analyze and shoehorn the data into datum points you can show to the non-analysts in a PowerPoint presentation.

 

I'd not be the one who had to decide if a particular piece of data pointed to "liking story" versus "doesn't have anything else to do except level a new toon because other toons are on ops lockouts"...

[MeNaCe-NZ]

But if you start discarding things because they skew the metrics, where would you stop?

 

Do you discard periods of time long after the release of the last major content update but before a new content update is announced because people are bored and not playing as much as they would with new content?

 

I wouldn't because the data accumulated during this period helps you determine the trends.

 

Do you discount the metrics soon after launch when players left in droves because there wasn't enough end-game?

 

This and the initial period I would because it skews things too much towards "people love story and people don't like ops" - if I wanted a more honest analysis for the state if affirs today then those periods do need to be excluded for the reasons we've already gone over.

 

Do you discount the metrics when the announcement of the KofFE because all major game content announcements and freebie offerings bring in subs?

 

In terms of this discussion around the decision process to create KoTFE that is moot as it was already decided it would be created.

 

The key to metrics is not simply the numbers but the reason for the numbers. And the more data you have to accumulate and sift through the more difficult it is to analyze and shoehorn the data into datum points you can show to the non-analysts in a PowerPoint presentation.

 

Yes the reasoning is the all important part and that's what the data is there to try justify.

Having a "the game subscriber base declined by X% during this period but grew by X% during this period" is only half a story if that, it's examing why that occurred and using more data analysis to try justify that conclusion that is all important and I would argue the MORE data you have ( with the correct tools to analyse said data which one would assume bioware must surely have ) the easier the job of forming the correct decisions is.

 

I'd not be the one who had to decide if a particular piece of data pointed to "liking story" versus "doesn't have anything else to do except level a new toon because other toons are on ops lockouts"...

 

What do you mean you'd not be the one? In what capacity? We don't even know what roles the people analysing the data have to fulfil - if it just raw presentation to otherp arties or coming up with logical, justified conclusions also.

 

The "other toons on ops lockout" would mean that account has toons doing operations and would lend a tick in the box to "actively participates and completes operations".

 

As people have said, all toons do story so you look at the factors that don't have a common factor between all accounts/toons that can determine a more true story as to what people like to do ( which we've been over a couple of times in this thread so have a read if you want to catch up and add to that or debate it ).

[Tourmaline]

I can see both sides to this. Now before you start sling mud and saying I am Swiss in WW2 just hear me out? Ok MMO's are group based, and I love when it can work that way. I come on late a LOT of the time, in the slower server times. When you wait and hour or more for a queue to pop. I think making more OPTIONS for solo play is a nice thing. I am sure someone will bark about this, but it is just the two cents of a late night player, take it as such.

[FerkWork]

I can see both sides to this. Now before you start sling mud and saying I am Swiss in WW2 just hear me out? Ok MMO's are group based, and I love when it can work that way. I come on late a LOT of the time, in the slower server times. When you wait and hour or more for a queue to pop. I think making more OPTIONS for solo play is a nice thing. I am sure someone will bark about this, but it is just the two cents of a late night player, take it as such.

 

You are Swiss in WWII

[Tourmaline]

You are Swiss in WWII

 

(Shakes fist and glowers.) Whipersnapper.

[Grayseven]

I wouldn't because the data accumulated during this period helps you determine the trends.

 

 

 

This and the initial period I would because it skews things too much towards "people love story and people don't like ops" - if I wanted a more honest analysis for the state if affirs today then those periods do need to be excluded for the reasons we've already gone over.

 

 

 

In terms of this discussion around the decision process to create KoTFE that is moot as it was already decided it would be created.

 

 

 

Yes the reasoning is the all important part and that's what the data is there to try justify.

Having a "the game subscriber base declined by X% during this period but grew by X% during this period" is only half a story if that, it's examing why that occurred and using more data analysis to try justify that conclusion that is all important and I would argue the MORE data you have ( with the correct tools to analyse said data which one would assume bioware must surely have ) the easier the job of forming the correct decisions is.

 

 

 

What do you mean you'd not be the one? In what capacity? We don't even know what roles the people analysing the data have to fulfil - if it just raw presentation to otherp arties or coming up with logical, justified conclusions also.

 

The "other toons on ops lockout" would mean that account has toons doing operations and would lend a tick in the box to "actively participates and completes operations".

 

As people have said, all toons do story so you look at the factors that don't have a common factor between all accounts/toons that can determine a more true story as to what people like to do ( which we've been over a couple of times in this thread so have a read if you want to catch up and add to that or debate it ).

 

I typed too fast. I meant "I'd not want to be the one who had to". In other words, I feel sorry for the poor sod that had to decide what a particular piece of data really meant.

 

Compared to MMO analysis, I have it easy. I simply have to determine why a quality defect happened. The reasons behind a defect are both limited and straight-forward. With limited data needed, it's much easier to determine the "why" of a defect. Though some days I long for being "just an operator".

 

With an MMO, the "defect result" is either a lost paying customer or a possible customer who doesn't become a customer. While still not easy, it would be easier to determine why a paying customer was lost than to determine why a possible customer didn't become a customer. After all, lost customers can be quite vocal as to why they are no longer customers...

 

I'm not really certain you can use a process of elimination when trying to determine reasons for current and possible customer loss which means you have to look at all of the data to try to figure out what contributed to the loss...and the truth is that it's very unlikely any one thing will point to customer loss. Most likely, there are a few major reasons why players have left (that those same players may have been very vocal about) combined with a bunch of smaller reasons.

 

And to add to the problem, the same issues that may have chased some players away may have kept others. The adage that you can make some of the people happy some of the time but not all of the people all of the time would seem to apply here.

 

So with these changes, EA/BW's paid analysts seem to have taken all of the data and determined that the path to the most money comes through eschewing the traditional MMO player and concentrating on the single player RPG player. This isn't the first MMO to make a major series of changes like this and it won't be the last. Current business practices make it imperative to stockholders that a business not only show profit, but show an almost unreasonable and constant profit growth. It isn't enough to make money, shareholders want a business to constantly make more money which drives a business to make decisions they may have otherwise not made in order to constantly show bottom line growth.

 

What we are seeing here is the ugly clash between business reality and MMO player desires. In the end, some customers will be happy and others will not and it is EA/BW's hope that these changes will keep and create more happy customers than the unhappy players they lose.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I typed too fast. I meant "I'd not want to be the one who had to". In other words, I feel sorry for the poor sod that had to decide what a particular piece of data really meant.

 

I would HOPE they would be doing it in a team environment and let's be honest here. How hard that decision is really comes down to how much data they have to analyse/work with and the tools they have available to make sense of that data. Also the amount of people working as a team on said data because consensus is a wonderful thing.

The better the data, tools and team the easier the role of making decisions around the data will be.

Can they get it completely wrong? Of course, I just believe from what I know and observe that this is the correct decision as far as this game is concerned ( which I've previously justified a few times now either in this thread or others where similar debates are on going ) thus I believe they are right on the money with however they've come to this decision.

 

 

Compared to MMO analysis, I have it easy. I simply have to determine why a quality defect happened. The reasons behind a defect are both limited and straight-forward. With limited data needed, it's much easier to determine the "why" of a defect. Though some days I long for being "just an operator".

 

I guess my role would be similar to an MMO in a way as it's more logistical analytics so for me personally a lot more predictive work as opposed to retroactive ( though we have members on our team who focus on that aspect as well of course ). It can be daunting but as I said above with a good team, tools and data it makes the data and conclusions I present much easier and I have more confidence in these conclusions. The decision process still comes down to the people in charge of their respective areas I present the data too of course, I imagine BW are the same and these managers are free to completely ignore the data if they choose ( at their peril I would say ).

 

With an MMO, the "defect result" is either a lost paying customer or a possible customer who doesn't become a customer. While still not easy, it would be easier to determine why a paying customer was lost than to determine why a possible customer didn't become a customer. After all, lost customers can be quite vocal as to why they are no longer customers...

 

True enough, anything retroactive is much easier ( imo ) than anything predictive because with retroactive analysis you have solid data to work with after an event where as predictive if you get it wrong it can be quite tricky to work out where it went wrong.

 

Still there is data to be had on why customers go to other games etc., certainly nothing is BW gets there hands on they are going to make public they have it I would think since it's a fairly competitive market and any data that can help get you an edge in your decision making process over your competition can help.

 

 

I'm not really certain you can use a process of elimination when trying to determine reasons for current and possible customer loss which means you have to look at all of the data to try to figure out what contributed to the loss...and the truth is that it's very unlikely any one thing will point to customer loss. Most likely, there are a few major reasons why players have left (that those same players may have been very vocal about) combined with a bunch of smaller reasons.

 

And to add to the problem, the same issues that may have chased some players away may have kept others. The adage that you can make some of the people happy some of the time but not all of the people all of the time would seem to apply here.

 

Of course not. That's why we go to my point above around the data, tools and people.

You can eliminate reasons from the process once you have the data though i.e. if data points out you lost 1% of your customer base or you didn't gain a predicted 1% increase you could have had due to a lack of PVP maps ( or poor PVP reputation ) but other data says the same but 10% on either side for a lack of new, relevant story well at that point you would say let's ignore the PVP part for now and focus on the bigger 10%.

 

Note I am of course HEAVILY over simplifying this of course, just for arguments sake to keep it simple without going into what data they might have that could lead to those sorts of numbers or how they could justify it etc. - again tools, data and people - we don't know what BW has in regards to these 3 factors really.

 

So with these changes, EA/BW's paid analysts seem to have taken all of the data and determined that the path to the most money comes through eschewing the traditional MMO player and concentrating on the single player RPG player. This isn't the first MMO to make a major series of changes like this and it won't be the last. Current business practices make it imperative to stockholders that a business not only show profit, but show an almost unreasonable and constant profit growth. It isn't enough to make money, shareholders want a business to constantly make more money which drives a business to make decisions they may have otherwise not made in order to constantly show bottom line growth.

 

What we are seeing here is the ugly clash between business reality and MMO player desires. In the end, some customers will be happy and others will not and it is EA/BW's hope that these changes will keep and create more happy customers than the unhappy players they lose.

 

Don't disagree with any of that at all. Key being their analysts have come to that conclusion. Some people are trying to imply they came to conclusion before the analysts put forward the data etc. and even the data may show the opposite and it is this point people are debating that I personally believe is nonsense.

 

My point is whatever the data shows - the correct decision for the business is being made based on that data unless some serious stuff ups were made. It's possible but I think unlikely.

 

People will be unhappy, it happens but so far the majority of outraged people seem to still be subbed a month later to still complain about it so that's still win/win for BW. Of course it could be until sub's expire so we'll see by years end how many stick around etc. but this issue will be long forgotten by then but if the same naysayers are still around talking the same negative crap I'll certainly be pointing out they are still here paying for a product they deride.

[AshenK]

I typed too fast. I meant "I'd not want to be the one who had to". In other words, I feel sorry for the poor sod that had to decide what a particular piece of data really meant.

 

Compared to MMO analysis, I have it easy. I simply have to determine why a quality defect happened. The reasons behind a defect are both limited and straight-forward. With limited data needed, it's much easier to determine the "why" of a defect. Though some days I long for being "just an operator".

 

With an MMO, the "defect result" is either a lost paying customer or a possible customer who doesn't become a customer. While still not easy, it would be easier to determine why a paying customer was lost than to determine why a possible customer didn't become a customer. After all, lost customers can be quite vocal as to why they are no longer customers...

 

I'm not really certain you can use a process of elimination when trying to determine reasons for current and possible customer loss which means you have to look at all of the data to try to figure out what contributed to the loss...and the truth is that it's very unlikely any one thing will point to customer loss. Most likely, there are a few major reasons why players have left (that those same players may have been very vocal about) combined with a bunch of smaller reasons.

 

And to add to the problem, the same issues that may have chased some players away may have kept others. The adage that you can make some of the people happy some of the time but not all of the people all of the time would seem to apply here.

 

So with these changes, EA/BW's paid analysts seem to have taken all of the data and determined that the path to the most money comes through eschewing the traditional MMO player and concentrating on the single player RPG player. This isn't the first MMO to make a major series of changes like this and it won't be the last. Current business practices make it imperative to stockholders that a business not only show profit, but show an almost unreasonable and constant profit growth. It isn't enough to make money, shareholders want a business to constantly make more money which drives a business to make decisions they may have otherwise not made in order to constantly show bottom line growth.

 

What we are seeing here is the ugly clash between business reality and MMO player desires. In the end, some customers will be happy and others will not and it is EA/BW's hope that these changes will keep and create more happy customers than the unhappy players they lose.

You don't get it do you.

 

Why did over 2 million people quit TOR and never looked back? Why is it every MMO site and message board says the same thing stay away from TOR? It's simple BioWare went and tried to make an MMO like a single player game and it failed. The single player people didn't like it, and the MMO Players didn't like it and TOR went F2P in no time after.

 

This is an MMO, people want group content, people want pvp, people want raids. And trying to go back to the idea that made TOR fail in the first place? Not a great idea, more so we have seen what happens every time a Dev decides "Lets change the game!"

 

UO did it and it lead to less players. SWG did it twice and lost all of it's players. Now TOR is doing it and history will repeat it's self.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You don't get it do you.

 

Why did over 2 million people quit TOR and never looked back? Why is it every MMO site and message board says the same thing stay away from TOR? It's simple BioWare went and tried to make an MMO like a single player game and it failed. The single player people didn't like it, and the MMO Players didn't like it and TOR went F2P in no time after.

 

This is an MMO, people want group content, people want pvp, people want raids. And trying to go back to the idea that made TOR fail in the first place? Not a great idea, more so we have seen what happens every time a Dev decides "Lets change the game!"

 

UO did it and it lead to less players. SWG did it twice and lost all of it's players. Now TOR is doing it and history will repeat it's self.

 

Heh it failed but that's why it still make a rather massive profit. GG on your logic there pal.

Maybe go stick to the negative nancy reddit threads instead where people actually support such nonsense points of view.

Edited August 28, 2015 by MeNaCe-NZ

[Reno_Tarshil]

You don't get it do you.

 

Why did over 2 million people quit TOR and never looked back? Why is it every MMO site and message board says the same thing stay away from TOR? It's simple BioWare went and tried to make an MMO like a single player game and it failed. The single player people didn't like it, and the MMO Players didn't like it and TOR went F2P in no time after.

 

This is an MMO, people want group content, people want pvp, people want raids. And trying to go back to the idea that made TOR fail in the first place? Not a great idea, more so we have seen what happens every time a Dev decides "Lets change the game!"

 

UO did it and it lead to less players. SWG did it twice and lost all of it's players. Now TOR is doing it and history will repeat it's self.

 

I can't wait to hear your next excuse when this game is alive and doing well next year. But until then, keep funding said game.

[AshenK]

I can't wait to hear your next excuse when this game is alive and doing well next year. But until then, keep funding said game.

I'm so glad I have you as a fan of mine it really honors me that you and others follow me. Still if the game was doing so well why is it we are not getting content we want? Why is it most of the voice cast isn't with the game anymore?

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

I'm so glad I have you as a fan of mine it really honors me that you and others follow me. Still if the game was doing so well why is it we are not getting content we want? Why is it most of the voice cast isn't with the game anymore?

 

Who's "we"? I didn't realize you speak for what the entire community wants as far as content is concerned.

[Reno_Tarshil]

I'm so glad I have you as a fan of mine it really honors me that you and others follow me. Still if the game was doing so well why is it we are not getting content we want? Why is it most of the voice cast isn't with the game anymore?

 

You only get followed because you constantly claim to have unsubbed and still pop up. Do you have a 5 year sub? You're not getting the content that you want, because BW is putting out the content they want. The content you want will be coming later.

 

Ask the VAs, not me. Not sure why you expected an answer for that.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

The problem with posts like this is nobody will know who's right until a bit after KotFE launches. I have no doubt they chose to focus on story because they believe that's their player base, but it's also right that statistics can be interpreted logically in very different ways. It will certainly be an interesting year.

 

And that is what it all boils down to. BW is going to play a gamble. and focus on solo player content. So what it comes down to, is will it or wont it pay off. How many subscribers who enjoy a little more challenging game, group content, end game will end up leaving? Are the # of players who just really want a KOTOR in space, with monthly story updates a growing customer base?

 

Personally I think it is an interesting gamble, I think either way, BW is going to find out what the future player base is going to be. Even if it fails, I don't think SWTOR is going to be closed, but it will be a shakeup I think.

 

Personally, I have been a subscriber since the start, and I am just really not into it anymore. The path the game seems to be going down of making everything crazy easy, companion changes etc, is not my bag..Like a previous poster said, if you don't like the path leave. So I am, but I get the benefit of the fact that I pay a year in advance, so my subscription ends at the end of October, so I get to see if it pays off, or if they are going to get a black eye out of their so called "metrics", which none of us can really comment on it accurately anyways, since they don't make any of it available.

 

Anyways, sorry for the long wall of text, I was just checking in, saw the thread and was interested

Edited August 29, 2015 by lightSaberAddiCt
Sentence edit

[Grayseven]

You don't get it do you.

 

Why did over 2 million people quit TOR and never looked back? Why is it every MMO site and message board says the same thing stay away from TOR? It's simple BioWare went and tried to make an MMO like a single player game and it failed. The single player people didn't like it, and the MMO Players didn't like it and TOR went F2P in no time after.

 

This is an MMO, people want group content, people want pvp, people want raids. And trying to go back to the idea that made TOR fail in the first place? Not a great idea, more so we have seen what happens every time a Dev decides "Lets change the game!"

 

UO did it and it lead to less players. SWG did it twice and lost all of it's players. Now TOR is doing it and history will repeat it's self.

 

You seem to think I prefer the move to single player...

 

I don't.

 

I think the current design changes are bad decision made with flawed data. That's my opinion. I think focusing on any one aspect of play is a bad thing...again, my opinion.

 

UO didn't fail, SWG didn't fail, TOR didn't fail. They showed a profit and paid for their development...which isn't failure in the business world. SWG lost its license to the franchise, but even after the NGE it kept right on plugging along. Sure, it wasn't making WoW money but then what other MMO does?

 

Failure in a business product can only be gauged by whether or not it paid for itself and showed a profit.

[Majestic_Jazz]

I'm so glad I have you as a fan of mine it really honors me that you and others follow me. Still if the game was doing so well why is it we are not getting content we want? Why is it most of the voice cast isn't with the game anymore?

 

You obviously do not speak for everyone causr KotFE is EXACTLY the type of content that I wanted and for that, KotFR will be a success for me!

[Elracor]

You obviously do not speak for everyone causr KotFE is EXACTLY the type of content that I wanted and for that, KotFR will be a success for me!

 

Being hyped is good and all but how about waiting until you've actually experienced the KotFE content before concluding if it's what you actually want?

 

I for one am not buying the whole "deep impact choices" and "choices matter" PR stuff until I see it for myself. I have pretty much zero confidence in Bioware delivering on that aspect.

[Max_Killjoy]

Being hyped is good and all but how about waiting until you've actually experienced the KotFE content before concluding if it's what you actually want?

 

I for one am not buying the whole "deep impact choices" and "choices matter" PR stuff until I see it for myself. I have pretty much zero confidence in Bioware delivering on that aspect.

 

Their track record is very spotty.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I for one am not buying the whole "deep impact choices" and "choices matter" PR stuff until I see it for myself.

 

Isn't this exactly what the Imperial Agent story always had ?

 

And none of the other stories, I guess ?

Edited August 29, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[zhandao]

The story/solo play is good, but from personal preferences of gameplay, I do not really enjoy the combat.

 

I don't mean to be disparaging about the gameplay but I am simply being honest in that's how I feel. Again I'm being subjective. And it is not my intent at all to criticize it... just to bring it up as a comparison:

 

What I really am emphasizing is that the story/solo play is really good - in fact so good that I'm completely willing to continue subbing despite any other reservations about the game.

 

I'm probably not being clear, and not talking in a way that will be interpreted the way I am trying to say, but TLDR:

 

I enjoy the story/solo play the most out of all the aspects of SWTOR, and I am very much happy and I very much prefer that Bioware focuses on story/solo play.

[DizzD]

1. Players are incentivized to level up multiple characters whether they want to or not via game mechanics and rewards.

 

2. Lack of timely elder game content creation drives players to spend more time leveling characters.

 

3. Six months of 12x XP leads to a critical mass of character leveling.

 

4. BioWare then points to metrics which show "people mostly playing the story" as justification to continue prioritizing story over content.

 

Really BioWare?

[Sith_Ravager]

1. Players are incentivized to level up multiple characters whether they want to or not via game mechanics and rewards.

 

2. Lack of timely elder game content creation drives players to spend more time leveling characters.

 

3. Six months of 12x XP leads to a critical mass of character leveling.

 

4. BioWare then points to metrics which show "people mostly playing the story" as justification to continue prioritizing story over content.

 

Really BioWare?

 

 

But...But...the Metrics Man....The Metrics say we are right!!!!

[Allamirr]

Well i for one started playing this game because of the Solo aspect alone! The only game i found where i can log on and solo or group if i want. You can do just about everything in game solo, except for HM Flashpoints and Ops raids. Seems like Bioware realizes this is what most people want and its what makes this game stand out from all the other forced group MMOs out there. I spent 11 years playing in Everquest, forced to always group as a warrior til i had enough and quit for good. Heard about SWTOR and it being solo friendly, so i gave it a try and found it to be fun and something i can log on and play when i want to and not be sitting in game crying for a group to do anything. Edited October 23, 2015 by Allamirr

[Sorrai]

Oh look, someone pointing at those metrics who have been utterly wrong many of times before. They said that their metrics show many people have active characters in story. That is great, that doesn't mean that evereyone is playing those characters, they could be parked in their story line for years and they would still be part of that metric.

 

Trusting BWs metrics blindly is just silly.

 

So is your unnecessarily condescending attitude.

[Deyjarl]

Honestly it does feel a lot more RPG than MMO.