The Operative roll!!!

[Lhancelot]

without doubt, the worst suggestion I've seen. no offense, but one of two major problems with pvp atm is (almost) every class having access to a 'god mode' movement aide or immunity. the other issue is in my sig, and both issues could be chalked-up to power creep -- except it was more like a power leap in 3.0. please, do NOT make everyone else even faster.

 

edit: or were you jk?

 

Foxmob, they can't tone down all the CC immunities and speed bursts etc., that would basically be removing all the work the devs put into PVP from 3.0 on!

 

The only solution is to give the 2 classes who do not have such abilities (merc and snipers) more mobility and immunities to CC.

 

Also, to counter this motherloving troll-roll ops get, we can just give some of the other classes more speed increases that way they are more on par with ops! It's not fair that ops get this roll, and you know it, as does everyone else.

 

If my PT sticks an ops with his instant nuke that 100% snares everytime, there's no motherloving reason why that op should have a roll that gives him a chance to live! My PT just snared him, and should be allowed to finish his FULL rotation of gigantic burst that basically destroys any other class in 3 secs or less! Not with the op though, he simply rolls away...

 

Same goes for other classes! My sin should not miss out on a kill shot within 10 secs of engagement on an ops due to them rolling away making my sin have to chase after them!

 

I can go on about how ridiculous and OP'd the ops roll is, but you get the picture. Basically this operative troll-roll ruins the fun and effectiveness of other classes.

 

Just make other classes BETTER, do not nerf the ops though. That's not fair to the ops.

[AlrikFassbauer]

If my PT sticks an ops with his instant nuke that 100% snares everytime, there's no motherloving reason why that op should have a roll that gives him a chance to live! My PT just snared him, and should be allowed to finish his FULL rotation of gigantic burst that basically destroys any other class in 3 secs or less! Not with the op though, he simply rolls away...

 

Same goes for other classes! My sin should not miss out on a kill shot within 10 secs of engagement on an ops due to them rolling away making my sin have to chase after them!

 

Do you play any other class than Assassin & PT - which are currently dominating the Leaderboards - as well ? For example ... let's say Commando or Gunslinger ?

[Hiro_Wildfire]

gosh, with this overpowered concealment rolling, operatives/scrappers must be topping leaderboards, even against the holy trinidy of sorc's, AP PT's and Sin's!

 

I do love how everyone complaining about the roll fails, completely and utterly to even comment on the down side of the roll. The say they've played the class, they say they've played other's and yet... they forget. Its a defensive cooldown that stops the class from attacking.

 

Remove the stun immunity? the operatives perma-root bug will be back. Remove the DR? Operatives will need that back somwhere else + the roll should be able to do damage while being used, or maybe be off the GCD.

 

 

Concealment isn't over-performing people, for those who are acting like it is? Please, go tell the dps doctor's where the bad operative touched you and stop pulling out one sided arguments that only work in your personal favour against the class.

 

"The roll ruin's my rotations!" Yea, it stops the operatives rotations as well. Any DcD can screw up somones rotations. Saber reflect just as a fully charged aimed shot's about to hit? Ow. Not to mention the jugg attack's while doing it.

 

"its a 23% uptime!" and 23% less damage for the operative. Thats assumeing the operative will just double roll, every 10 seconds without hesitation, big assumption to make.

 

"I carn't kill an operative 1v1!" Try a deception sin. They don't have the roll, but they're damned good at 1v1's and I don't see people complaining about them this badly.

 

 

Whenever a scrapper/concealment gets something decent, people wine about it. the knockdown, the cover, the damage, the burst. Seriously, go and complain about the classes that are -actually- over performing, or the classes that are under performing.

[foxmob]

"The roll ruin's my rotations!" Yea, it stops the operatives rotations as well. Any DcD can screw up somones rotations. Saber reflect just as a fully charged aimed shot's about to hit? Ow. Not to mention the jugg attack's while doing it.

they can completely nullify the burst every time burst cycles. there's a big difference. furthermore, concealment doesn't have a roto. it's like press this until you can't anymore then press this until you can press that again.

[Giliodor]

mara can leap

 

Yes, they can. Clearly OP.

[Hiro_Wildfire]

furthermore, concealment doesn't have a roto. it's like press this until you can't anymore then press this until you can press that again.

 

Riiiight.. concealment doesn't have a rotation... Yea, I'm going to need to go ahead and tell you your wrong there. They can be flexable with the rotation, but so can a lot of classes

[Boomer-]

"The roll ruin's my rotations!" Yea, it stops the operatives rotations as well. Any DcD can screw up somones rotations. Saber reflect just as a fully charged aimed shot's about to hit? Ow. Not to mention the jugg attack's while doing it.

 

"its a 23% uptime!" and 23% less damage for the operative. Thats assumeing the operative will just double roll, every 10 seconds without hesitation, big assumption to make.

 

"I carn't kill an operative 1v1!" Try a deception sin. They don't have the roll, but they're damned good at 1v1's and I don't see people complaining about them this badly.

 

 

Whenever a scrapper/concealment gets something decent, people wine about it. the knockdown, the cover, the damage, the burst. Seriously, go and complain about the classes that are -actually- over performing, or the classes that are under performing.

 

1. Yes the operative isn't able to damage while rolling. But still at a huge advantage. Why? Because he can easily negate the enemy's best offensive moves, while he holds on to his, and can just apply them once he's done rolling. As an example you can completely null my cull, while still having your volatile substance available and applying it right after the roll. So no its not 23% damage reduction for both. More like 50% for the enemy and 10% for you.

 

2. A deception sin can be killed easily when at 30% without vanish, the same cannot be said about an operative.

[Hiro_Wildfire]

2. A deception sin can be killed easily when at 30% without vanish, the same cannot be said about an operative.

 

Wrong, just so damned wrong. You must have some pretty damned bad sin's. Since I've seen one or two players on my server do that.

Mind you, the ones I've seen were pretty damned good sin's.

 

 

1. Yes the operative isn't able to damage while rolling. But still at a huge advantage. Why? Because he can easily negate the enemy's best offensive moves, while he holds on to his, and can just apply them once he's done rolling. As an example you can completely null my cull, while still having your volatile substance available and applying it right after the roll. So no its not 23% damage reduction for both. More like 50% for the enemy and 10% for you.

 

why the hell are you culling while they have roll up and can roll? Jeez, this is what I've ment in the past when i've said about counterplay.

Yes, its more damage reduction for them if you start your burst when they start rolling. Especialy if you do it predictably when they have roll up, not even thinking about how to counter it.

 

Its like complaining about saber reflect stopping your aimed shot because you weren't smart enough to stop chargeing it up.

 

 

when the operative does that roll? They must move away from you, or back and forth to get the full 3 seconds immunity. If they've done that? Guess what! you can now roll away (Or knockback pulse) and keep on dps'ing them happily.

 

Its called counterplay, their defensive is tied to a gap closer which is one of the reasons why it is also ballenced. If you are smart enough for force them to use it in either regard? They give up two attack's and lose it for the other regard.

[Glower]

why the hell are you culling while they have roll up and can roll? Jeez, this is what I've ment in the past when i've said about counterplay.

 

Please answer what he should do between inevitable rolls with tiny cooldowns? Enlighten (me)!

[Hiro_Wildfire]

Please answer what he should do between inevitable rolls with tiny cooldowns? Enlighten (me)!

 

Root, stun, use dirty shot/somthing, whatever the sniper equivilent is? Thats 10 seconds between cooldown's, 6 cooldown's worth of attack's. If you get your burst completely nullified by an enemy DcD then thats either you playing badly, them playing well or somone getting lucky/unlucky.

 

if you use dodge as their volitile substance/blood boiler is about to detonate, or even roll yourself to avoid the backstab?

 

I am assumeing of course this is a sniper. If we're talking about an operative dot-spec, then healing would be what you could do while somone starts rolling.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Hiro_Wildfire

[WickedImage]

O...m...g...the whine....go make an op if they are so overpowered....lol. The next thread will be about your op getting owned by this class or that one.

The "poor me" garbage is so laughable here. The operatives roll is too strong, the BH is so weak, the Marauder is defenseless, blah, blah, blah....

I also just made a BH(Merc) and Marauder to finally see what all the fuss was about? You folks crying about those two classes are a joke too. I destroy people on those characters ( Saiko, you were right my sentinel and marauder are Beastie!. ) What takes me 10 cool downs on my operative...I can do in 4 or 5 CD's on those two characters. Yes I can get owned without support. So what? I DESTROY people in a few CD's, what else can I cry about?

 

This is clearly becoming a L2P issue afa I see. Don't want to full resolve them? Use a root. (although this school of thought is so stupid its ridiculous. Don't use your cc? cuz you may give them resolve? lol ok....lets cry about things we don't want to do. No, no, no....we have the ability to stop them, we just don't think we should have to use that power to do it. HILARIOUS!)

Don't have the reflexes to react? Think farther than 2 inches in front of your face. Learn to anticipate like the rest of us do. If I see an operative at 10%? I'm thinking stun & done. If they get away from you there is no one to blame but you. If they burn all they have in order to get away from me, well, then good on them.

 

If you seriously, NO BS cannot stop an operative then I suggest you go make one and play one up to at least valor 60 or higher. Then come back here and tell us all how overpowered you are.

Edited September 8, 2015 by WickedImage

[Hiro_Wildfire]

2. Sniper dodge does not resist volatile substance.

I'm only using sniper as an example. A madness sorc for example would have much worse results when trying to take down the op.

than this.

 

Yea, it dosen't resist it. Really, effects that resist things don't work on VS. Simply because when the poison effect is resisted? VS does not detonate.

 

Sniper dodge does however grant 75% DR for its duration and that is quite substantial. So while not killing it, it shreads the damage from the burst down to a minimum.

 

 

100% immunity to everything, for 3 seconds, on a 10 second cooldown is excessive. I think that is a fair statement.

yea, that certainly would be exessive. If it wasn't tied to a gap closer, stopped the op from doing damage and could be prevented by roots.

 

 

As for the point 1 you made, aye. maybe you can only do so much damage on the DoT spec when their roll is down. We are compairing sniper to an operative on a 1v1 basis however here, which is very heavily in the op's favour being the stealth burst that is is.

 

If the Op roll's off to heal? They've just burned their best DCD to run off, you can roll after them, run and kill them while they're healing.

[Zoom_VI]

Sniper dodge does however grant 75% DR for its duration and that is quite substantial. So while not killing it, it shreads the damage from the burst down to a minimum.

 

Correction Sniper's Evasion is supposed to give 75% F/T DR. However it's bugged and doesn't work properly.

[MarcoMontana]

Just knock him off and or away! I can't tell you how annoying knockbacks are to Ops

[Technohic]

The fact that sorcs have a hard time with OPs is reason enough to keep roll for now. Between Ops and Sins with purges, thats pretty much the only thing standing in the way from Sorcs even having much more than annoyances right now.

[WickedImage]

A few points:

 

To the person above: your post is so juvenile, so unrefined, and so baseless that it does not warrant a reply other than this.

 

That's hilarious.

Have you tried a root? Those help. Maybe a hard stun, snare, mez, or KB? Also....a nice help. Grenades? Has anyone mentioned that you can't be uber vs everybody? That nugget may also help you. Maybe focus targets w i t h o t h e r s instead of hero shooting? All helpful things for taking out an operative. If you make them flee for cover just to go heal, and they haven't killed you..... it's not "much" different than you killing them. Re-spawn times are minimal anyways. Is it the stat you need? Maybe you should set up your chain smarter when targeting an op? We have already learned the exact percentages the ops is able to be brought down to before they turn magical and evaporate into thin air?

 

"But what do you mean oh baseless, juvenile, and unrefined one?"

 

I mean don't unload your 70% burst until they are already under 70% health. K? Like instead of bursting them from 100% down to 30% and watching them walk out on you, try plinking at them until they are at 50-60% then unload your 70% burst or whatever your number is. If they still get away then you know you're going to have to sneak a stun or root in at about 20% health or so to insure they stay put.

 

Also, "Juvenile, unrefined and baseless"? You're a hoot dude/dudette. And also wrong.

 

Operatives are very killable when team work, tactics, and gameplay are superior. maybe their teamwork, tactics or gameplay was superior to yours? If they didn't die and you didn't die then maybe the gameplay level was similar?(we call this a tie ) Either way, everyone has kryptonite I suppose.

Again, go roll an operative then come back here and tell us how overpowered the roll is. Without that roll Operatives would be useless and drop to the bottom of the totem pole like a brick. Without the roll they are the easiest kill in the game.

[QuiveringPotato]

Correction Sniper's Evasion is supposed to give 75% F/T DR. However it's bugged and doesn't work properly.

 

Fairly certain it's not bugged, I hit for poop when snipers pop evasion, and if I see it up, I just try to refresh my kolto probes or put a DoT on them. Once got a 3k volatile substance on a sniper who had evasion up, so yes, I am fairly certain it's working.

[Zoom_VI]

Fairly certain it's not bugged, I hit for poop when snipers pop evasion, and if I see it up, I just try to refresh my kolto probes or put a DoT on them. Once got a 3k volatile substance on a sniper who had evasion up, so yes, I am fairly certain it's working.

 

It's working but the DR is way less than 75%. I can hit a Sniper that is running evasion with a 10k Cell Burst. If you are to believe that Evasion is functioning properly that would mean that the Cell Burst would have hit him for 40k had he not been running Evasion.

 

Also compare hitting a sniper with Evasion up to hitting a Gunslinger with Dodge up, you'll notice you can hit the sniper significantly harder than you can hit the gunslinger for.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[Glower]

Also compare hitting a sniper with Evasion up to hitting a Gunslinger with Dodge up, you'll notice you can hit the sniper significantly harder than you can hit the gunslinger for.

 

Can they at least learn to copy/paste? Damn, Bioware can always surprise me with their (put something bad here) work. "Our combat team", "our metric"... what metrics dammit? Even copy/paste is to hard for them!

Edited September 9, 2015 by Glower

[Hiro_Wildfire]

3 second immunity, on demand, to everything on a 10 second cooldown is ridiculous. I know it and you know it. The difference is I'm not obssessed about keeping an unbalanced ability in the game thats really ruining everyone's experience.

 

 

I do think its very unfair to state that a single ability is ruining 'everyones' gameing experience when a few people here, quite a few even have no trouble with it at all.

 

The roll is fine dude, its got counterplay to it and a price to pay for its use. However calling people who want to try and keep the scrapper ballenced and not see it both unfairly and needlessly nerfed 'Obsessed' is a little unfair don't you think?

[Boomer-]

I do think its very unfair to state that a single ability is ruining 'everyones' gameing experience when a few people here, quite a few even have no trouble with it at all.

 

The roll is fine dude, its got counterplay to it and a price to pay for its use. However calling people who want to try and keep the scrapper ballenced and not see it both unfairly and needlessly nerfed 'Obsessed' is a little unfair don't you think?

 

I think the reason people are annoyed with roll is its very hard to counter. Saying use counterplay isn't addressing the problem. You can make that argument about everything. e.g. old smash: Learn to play dude and don't stack.

The counterplays to roll are basically stuns as not every class has a root. What you're saying is the counterplay to complete immunity every 10 seconds is perfectly timing something that's usually on a 1 minute cooldown. Funny enough roll itself is immune to stuns. Some roots are not even that good. For example snipers root is negated after 2 seconds with damage. How is that a counterplay to roll? Don't tell me to get 2 friends to help me kill the operative that's at 30%. That's just ridiculous.

The bottom line is roll provides too big of an advantage at almost no cost to the op (2 gcd's of no damage while getting hot heals), on an extremely short cooldow.

If you're gona keep giving the counterplay argument realize that roll is objectively superior to its supposed counterplays (shorter cooldown, and immune to any counterplay when its active).

 

Obsessed may be a bit of a strong word but read the responses of your support party in the previous 30 pages. Most are calling us, proponents of change whiners or l2p.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Boomer-

[WickedImage]

Obsessed may be a bit of a strong word but read the responses of your support party in the previous 30 pages. Most are calling us, proponents of change whiners or l2p.

 

Boomer? There is a pretty good reason for that friend. It's really not that hard to counter an operative if you, yourself, know how to play one. Seriously. There are several ways, all listed in this thread, that you seem to want to ignore, think you shouldn't have to do, or think is more than the class should have for you to deal with. Frankly, you haven't posted anything that makes us think you are right and change is needed. All you've said is the stats on the power and how you think its too powerful. That's it....

I appreciate what your saying but I respectfully disagree with you. There is nothing to see here.

[Boomer-]

It's really not that hard to counter an operative if you, yourself, know how to play one. Seriously. There are several ways, all listed in this thread, that you seem to want to ignore, think you shouldn't have to do, or think is more than the class should have for you to deal with. Frankly, you haven't posted anything that makes us think you are right

 

You are right. We disagree. I think operatives are very hard to counter and telling me to root, stun, or party up with friends isn't addressing the base problem. I'm not surprised that I haven't changed your mind. I never thought I would. But I'm putting up my argument here so that others can see and judge for themselves.

[Hiro_Wildfire]

I can put another thing to think about here. If the roll were to be changed then concealment operatives would need another very good DcD in exchange.

 

They are not overpowered in the current metal, they are fine as many people will say. So nerfing them because someone believes one skill to be too powerful would not help the class overall, they would need something very substantial in return.

 

 

Obsessed may be a bit of a strong word but read the responses of your support party in the previous 30 pages. Most are calling us, proponents of change whiners or l2p.

 

At the same time, there have been a lot of people argueing for it to be changed being quite offensive or not bothering to present a valid argument over it. Simply stateing their view like it is fact without any other thought.

Its 6 of one side of the argument and half a dosen of the other I think.

 

 

 

The bottom line is roll provides too big of an advantage at almost no cost to the op (2 gcd's of no damage while getting hot heals), on an extremely short cooldow.

 

Just to explain about those HoT heals as well, the HoT only tick's once in every 2 GCD's, I carn't truely see that as a huge advantage of the roll, especialy seeing as the other player gets to heal in this time as well if they have any healing skills.

 

Also it can come at a very heafty cost, seeing as this is their most powerful DcD and it stop's them for attacking. If they don't negate very m ch burst in the target and the target heals or follows them or somthing of the sort? thats 2 rolls wasted potentialy.

[Boomer-]

I'm so tired of this discussion. Its impossible to reason with you people. Just finished a huttball game where two scoundrels were playing "row row row the ball gently down map...". just look at how incredibly stupid those animations look rolling over half of the map with each roll off the ramp, literally teleporting across the map with immunity. Please, write me 3 paragraphs on how this is fair and blah blah blah lol. Write me another paragraph on how roll is just like force charge, when in reality its nothing close...You guys are grown men for gods sake. It's called denial.

 

A beautiful map ruined by one ability in the game, with a dev team so careless they probably haven't touched the code in weeks.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Boomer-