Flashpoint/Ops issue that needs to be addressed

[Zeo_Stryder]

I've only recently returned to Swtor after a long break, but after a month now, I've been seeing this happen a lot in GF messages and I think this needs to be said: Stop using "code" for no "first timers".

 

I get it, you want to run stuff, gets your comms, get your gear, blah blah blah. Its the nature of the game. However, with the announcement of a new expansion some older players are coming back and are out of date, or new players are joining for the first time. If you don't want rookies on your team then flat out say so, you don't need to "code" the message by saying: "Must have 190+ gear", or "Must have Achievements" (what does that mean?).

 

It doesn't take long to do a explain to ppl what to do, or not to do. Even faster if its just one person, all you need to do is tell them what to look out for and where to/not to stand, OR if you have a voice system, get them in so you can tell them. First timers will never learn unless you let them in the group in the first place and even then they need to know what to expect. Explanations take maybe 5 minutes, tops. Every FP or Ops doesn't have to be a speed run. Heck if its a guild event, you might even get a new member out of it.

 

My point is, stop expecting everyone to be pro's. And if someone in your group says; "It's been awhile" or "It's my first time" then teach them. There is nothing wrong with slowing down, and the group will be better for it.

[ShawDou]

While i agree with most if it. It is not black and white. I dont need them to be pro, just have idea what to do.

1. Many times i got tank who know nothing about op/fp and didnt event let group know about it until after wipe or two.

2. It takes about 5 min to look up basic tactic on dulfy so you go at least a bit prepared.

Edited July 9, 2015 by ShawDou

[Dontelar]

I'd have to agree. Flashpoints haven't really been a problem as far as I can see - they generally aren't complicated enough that you can't figure out the mechanics easily, and I'm always happy to teach new people the mechanics. There are a few HMs that I don't know, simply because they have never happened to pop in the group finder. Plus Lost Island. I've never even seen the story mode...

 

Ops on the other hand... I've had at least one character at max level for the last two years. I have yet to play a single Operation outside of just using the groupfinder - all of which have been complete failures because they were full of other people like me who don't know the fights. And one guys who does who bails after the first wipe. Sure, I read up on them before I que, which certainly helps, and hopefully others do the same, but reading and playing are entirely different things.

 

Try to get into a group without the group finder? Either say you don't know it and no-one will invite you, or don't and get kicked immediately because you don't have the achievement. Well, and I got kicked for not being geared enough once - almost full 192s for SM Scum and Villainy isn't good enough?!

 

I'm starting to think that the only way to get into doing ops is to find a group of other people who don't know them, and just keep running it over and over until you all have it figured out the hard way. Which I would actually enjoy (that's how I learned a bunch of the dungeons in Secret World - it was fun), if it wasn't for the fact that I don't have hours and hours every night to spend wiping on the same fights over and over.

 

Honestly, I've pretty much given up on Ops. Which is unfortunate, considering how much I enjoy playing (and teaching others to play) Flashpoints. Maybe one day I'll end up in a guild that's willing to teach me because one of their ops teams is down a member or something.

[cbantug]

I sincerely don't mean this to be a mean post and I'm sorry if it comes off as such. When I do group finder groups with random people I'd prefer to be able to get it done and move on. I'd prefer not to waste a week long lockout on something like Underlurker because explaining the mechanics just isn't enough on that fight. You gotta see it to understand it. My feeling is if you don't know it run it with your guild first so they can teach you. I follow that advice myself because I don't want to stall anyone else's lockout.

[Icestar]

Explanations take maybe 5 minutes, tops. Every FP or Ops doesn't have to be a speed run.

 

I always take the patience to explain tactics for new players however I always appreciate if they have spent atleast five minutes reading a guide how to do the OPS or FP.

 

Yesterday I had a few players that expected the others to both carry them and to explain tactics, we had a few dropping out after that. I like when new players join the OPS but actually not when they expect to be carried and taught without even a few minutes of preparation.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Icestar

[Bachannal]

I sympathize with the OP, but I also feel like the folks who are being pretty specific about what they want in terms of group members (even if it's for a PUG) are screening for folks who will most likely either:

 

A. Already have at least a cursory understanding of the FP or OP in question.

and

B. Be geared decently enough to be able to handle damage if they're flailing around like a muppet, which reduces load on the healers - which is just plain smart if you wanna stay alive

 

As for the folks that ask for achievements ("cheevs" in fleet speak) - those folks are just plain screening for people who are both well geared and at least above average in terms of ability. Maybe not full on elite players, but people who won't cause the group to wipe....remember some folks have day jobs and families and homework and a ton of other reasons that they can't dedicate hours to wiping on an OP just to help a new player.

 

I used to get kind of bent when I'd see that stuff in fleet, especially when I was still learning the game - but a little bit of research and time invested on my own part taught me way more than I expected to learn, and listening to folks when they told me "don't stand in that" or "the LEFT side of the Underlurker dude" or "watch for the debuff", etc. pretty much took care of the rest.

[FerkWork]

There are many casual guilds that do runs where veteran players "teach" the "uninitiated". This is the place to learn. We all were Scrublord 9000s .

 

 

Don't bother with Groupfinder. GF is where cesspool not only cause people go there to be the comm gear hero it is also tied to Conquest. The more GF runs they do the more points there guild gets. So conquest guild stuff GF Ops (aka not raiders) which are the real rudeness. A raider would know you only need 156 to do SnV and that Bolster makes it irrelevant and that SM is trivial especially at 60. Conquest people however are so obsessed with time and points that they will boot anyone for time, also they may make excuses to get other guildies in for more points. I have been booted from a DF back when Conquest was fresh so we wouldn't get points. I was in Dread Forged gear min maxed. On a Mara back when they were good (rip Anni)

 

Moral of story, GF is for conquest grind. As you said either like minded people group or a casual guild will do. Or if you are on JC hit me up and I can tell you some tricks of the trade

[Stoofa]

The "must have achievement" always makes me laugh.

Everybody needs to learn somewhere and as long as people know the basics of the encounter before hand they should be OK.

If every group that advertises "must have achievement" took 1-2 newbies each time, then the pool of people "with the achievement" would vastly increase and they wouldn't need to spend so long spamming on the fleet.

 

I don't do ops that much. Although guilded many times, I do have a real life and I cannot always be on call then people want to spend a few hours doing an operation.

But I have been "allowed" to join groups where 80% of the group know what they are doing. It's a good way to learn - actually being in a team like that and it means I can then join other groups in the future.

 

But hay - people form their groups how they want to and then do the operation "play-by-play" in exactly the same method as the last time they did it. Their choice.

[Icestar]

The "must have achievement" always makes me laugh.

 

For those that actually does ops and knows that a boss needs atleast basic understanding of the fight before heading in it is not that funny.

 

Some bosses simply takes longer then 5 minutes to explain

[ShawDou]

The "must have achievement" always makes me laugh.

 

I have seen this demand only when people want to run actual HM content, previous (55) NiM content or some hard SM content such as Monolith or Underlurker.

 

For underlurker and monolith it can be disputable, but i few times run with group who wiped on lurker until one specific player left and after that killed him in single pull.

 

For actual HM and previous NiM content it is absolute valid demand, cause it is progress raid and there are lot of mechanics to know and do to have at least chance to finish it.

[nevenavasovic]

On one hand, I can see why people would ask for gear, and achievements in ToS and Rav. I've had some great runs with GF groups bc of that. We'd faceroll through 60 ops in less time (30 mins) than it took to do SnV because no one had to explain anything. People ask for certain standards of skill, and gear because when you have people who won't pass dps, and heal check, it gets very frustrating.

Usually you can tell how well the group will do by the 2nd boss on both ops. If you don't have a decent group you won't pass 2nd and 3rd boss of Rav or ToS. But explaining the fight, and then not getting pass Bulo/Tor/UL is annoying. Mostly because you wasted time, and now you need to find another group. You can carry a few newbies, especially with bolster. But if you have 3 newer dps who can't pull 2.5K dps on walkers, well good luck getting past UL. It just won't happen.

So that's why ppl ask for the checks. It's sucky but that's the reason why.

 

On the other hand, people do take it to extremes with lvl 55s which are bolstered. That's just stupid, and I feel very sad for those ppl who feel they need a group with 192 gear to finish a SM SnV.

 

I'd honestly suggest looking for a guild. Say that you are a newer player who wishes to learn more about raiding. That way, a guild group can take you with them, run you through, get you geared, and you'll be good to go.

[DarthRaneDeer]

GF for OPs and HM FPs is a mess right now. This happens in just about every MMO. As the content cycle matures pug tolerance for noobs reduces to toxic levels. It's a themepark-xpac cycle issue, not really a SWTOR issue specifically. The only real solutions we have control over are:

 

1. Join a guild, which I refuse to do. I run with RL buddies or not at all. I've done the whole serve first and causal raiding bit...not my bag anymore.

2. Ignore the content, which I do. Love GSF though.

Edited July 9, 2015 by DarthRaneDeer

[cyrusramsey]

Works two ways for me. On the one hand I find it a little silly when people demand achievements/knowledge of fights for most content. It's put me off trying to do ops for a long time because my guild (that I love and will not leave) does not do them and for the longest time even SM ops being formed on fleet contained such messages. At least till the bolster via groupfinder.

 

On the other hand, when I go into content that I've not done before, I say something like "I've never done this one before", "have not done this on HM yet", "have seen guide not played this yet" or even "have never tanked/healed this before, fyi" and I have never gotten crap. Usually the result is that either I will get a quick rundown before noteworthy fights or, if the group is rather overgeared, sometimes they just bulldoze over content and I learn on the go.

 

The same goes for when I'm in my comfort zone, as is the case for all FPs and some ops now, if someone makes clear they have not done something before, I am happy to explain what they're supposed to do, but it does tick me off when they say nothing. And it's obvious too, so the next encounter I will ask "everyone know what to do?" or something and most will say "yes" and the one who obviously doesn't know what they're doing will stay quiet.

 

Heh, didn't realize how much I needed to rant about this. >.>

Edited July 9, 2015 by cyrusramsey

[ThomasTheBeige]

I've just recently done EV and KP SM for the first time. I couldn't find anyone else forming groups so I formed my own. Guess what; I got a group of 60's. They were very nice and helpful, and I would say I am ready to do them when they get updated to 65.

 

Long story short, try forming your own group. You will most likely be the only one forming a group for EV, KP, and EC; and there are always lots of people looking for 55+ ops.

[Icestar]

I've just recently done EV and KP SM for the first time. I couldn't find anyone else forming groups so I formed my own. Guess what; I got a group of 60's. They were very nice and helpful, and I would say I am ready to do them when they get updated to 65.

 

Long story short, try forming your own group. You will most likely be the only one forming a group for EV, KP, and EC; and there are always lots of people looking for 55+ ops.

 

It is a great week to do EV, KP and EC since they also gives conquestpoints.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Icestar

[branmakmuffin]

The "must have achievement" always makes me laugh.

Everybody needs to learn somewhere and as long as people know the basics of the encounter before hand they should be OK.

If every group that advertises "must have achievement" took 1-2 newbies each time, then the pool of people "with the achievement" would vastly increase and they wouldn't need to spend so long spamming on the fleet.

What's really funny (and deserved) are the occasional LFMs I see like "Need tank for Operation X, must be geared and know fights" that go on for an hour, sometimes 2, sometimes more. And then the schadenfreude in me giggles on the rare occasion when I get a whisper asking me to tank the thing (and the answer is no because I don't do Ops).

 

Doesn't happen often, but very satisfying when it does.

[TUXs]

Players who quit the game, getting upset with players who haven't, for not wanting to teach them everything they missed...every MMO has this problem.

[TUXs]

I've just recently done EV and KP SM for the first time. I couldn't find anyone else forming groups so I formed my own. Guess what; I got a group of 60's. They were very nice and helpful, and I would say I am ready to do them when they get updated to 65.

 

Long story short, try forming your own group. You will most likely be the only one forming a group for EV, KP, and EC; and there are always lots of people looking for 55+ ops.

Freaking HUGE props to you for doing that!!! I wish I could have joined you...not only do I enjoy helping others, I owe Soa about 5,000,000 more deaths...

[robertthebard]

I have seen this demand only when people want to run actual HM content, previous (55) NiM content or some hard SM content such as Monolith or Underlurker.

 

For underlurker and monolith it can be disputable, but i few times run with group who wiped on lurker until one specific player left and after that killed him in single pull.

 

For actual HM and previous NiM content it is absolute valid demand, cause it is progress raid and there are lot of mechanics to know and do to have at least chance to finish it.

 

I'm curious, how did people get the achievement in the first place, if the achievement is required to run the content? You see, there's a slight paradox here, and what it boils down to is quite simply "I don't want to take the time to explain the fight". That's fine and all, explaining the way to run the content is certainly not required, but in your example here, the first thing I thought was "What if the guy that left was the only one that actually had the achievement?". It could be possible that enough failed attempts finally brought a success, and that you would have succeeded even if that guy hadn't left. That is, after all, how the first people to get the achievement actually got it.

[branmakmuffin]

I've just recently done EV and KP SM for the first time. I couldn't find anyone else forming groups so I formed my own. Guess what; I got a group of 60's. They were very nice and helpful, and I would say I am ready to do them when they get updated to 65.

This is what I miss about DDO's "group finder" tool. It's more of an advertisement board than a "match you up with a random group of other players who may or may not want to do the instance the same way you want to" thing. You post whether you are LFM or LFG, for what quest and can add a note for what type of run. Easy, peasy.

 

I have more fun things to do than get randomly matched with a group of know-it-alls and impatient toddlers.