Uh Oh, the world as we know it may come to an end

[MSchuyler]

I don't buy the IQ argument, because at the end of Wrath WOW was as complex or more so than SWTOR was at launch. Yet 12.1M people could handle WOW with no problem. The net negative migration in WOW started after the dumbing down began. I tried WOW recently, seeing the writing on the wall here, and found it to be so dumbed down that I quickly left.

 

So you don't buy the IQ argument, then give an absolutely perfect example of it.

Edited September 3, 2015 by MSchuyler

[Khevar]

So you don't buy the IQ argument, then give an absolutely perfect example of it.

Eh?

 

1. You said this game's complexity may be being reduced to allow for a wider range of people to play.

2. asbalana gives an example of another game that lost players when the complexity was reduced.

 

This supports your argument how, exactly?

[eartharioch]

That has been in effect for a while now. Go into any FP alone and you will get nothing but gear with your character's main stat on it. Go into any FP with a group and everything that drops will be "useful" to someone in the group; again the main stat applies. Whether the drops are truly useful depends on how geared the characters are going in. Honestly, if they modify the "useful" factor to be always truly useful - as in for example a character going into a 60HMFP in 192 and there drops 198 - that would be SOOOOOOO broken..

 

Here's the excerpt from the dev blog:

Next, most of our Story Mode Flashpoints have been converted to Tactical, meaning you can play them at any level between 10 and 65! These Flashpoints also bolster your character, so you never have to worry about being under-geared or under-leveled, and can play with friends of varying levels. As an added bonus, each player can also receive loot specific to their Class and their non-bolstered level, so running these Flashpoints is always beneficial.

 

Hard Mode Flashpoints are getting love as well! All Hard Mode Flashpoints, including the Red Reaper for the first time, will be available starting at Level 50 up to Level 65. There will be a small Bolster to allow different level ranges to play together, but you’ll need to bring a balanced group with a Tank and Healer just as with Hard Mode Flashpoints currently. Just like the new Tactical Flashpoints, each player can get their own individual loot suited for their class from entirely new sets of gear. This will provide the perfect jumping off point for getting you ready to tackle Operations!

 

Basically, they are making all the old FPs Tacticals with Bolster and making the rewards loot boxes customized to each player's class and level. I'm guessing that's so if you queue and get Hammer Station Tactical at level 60, you'd get level 60 gear, and if you were paired with 3x 45s, they'd get 45 gear as opposed to everybody still getting SM Hammer Station gear (circa level 20).

 

So it's your actual level, not the gear level, that defines "useful".

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Well realize with the main stats becoming mastery and crit and surge being consolidated and crit moving to a teriary stat, there will be a LOT of gear that would be "useful" to a LOT raid members. The only real differentiation would be if the gear has accuracy (for DPS) or tank stats (def, shield, absorb). And since a raid has to have all three roles the chances of every piece being useful to someone jumps radically.

 

I guess it depends on how you read the blog. Are they talking about GF rewards or rolls during the op? Saying that things "will all drop gear relevant to your character" makes me believe you are going to get some "guaranteed" gear per run.

 

I guess it's up to interpretation but I believe when they made those statements around gear they weren't just talking about the stat changes and are referencing changes in how gear is rewarded. That is compared to how it is now being by using comms or winning a roll.

Maybe rolls are a thing of the past *shrug*.

 

Either way I don't think anything is always going to reward you something better than what you have now, it will be capped based on level. If you want top end gear I assume you'll still need go run the HM/NiM operations.

[Aricus]

Here's the excerpt from the dev blog:

 

 

Basically, they are making all the old FPs Tacticals with Bolster and making the rewards loot boxes customized to each player's class and level. I'm guessing that's so if you queue and get Hammer Station Tactical at level 60, you'd get level 60 gear, and if you were paired with 3x 45s, they'd get 45 gear as opposed to everybody still getting SM Hammer Station gear (circa level 20).

 

So it's your actual level, not the gear level, that defines "useful".

 

So if this is the case, crafting is going to be less useful. At least in the sense of crafting gear.

[psandak]

So if this is the case, crafting is going to be less useful. At least in the sense of crafting gear.

 

I disagree, most current FP drops are blue quality and not optimized. So just as a vague example going forward, a level 30 jedi sentinel goes into an FP and gets a loot box, and get a mastery, power, alacrity piece of gear commensurate with the character's level. The gear could be used by said sentinel but chances are mastery power crit or mastery power accuracy would be better. Furthermore, if said sentinel has crafted purple then the FP loot box is even less useful because the purple stats are higher.

[Mon-El]

I agree whole heartedly Edited September 3, 2015 by Mon-El

[DawnAskham]

I disagree, most current FP drops are blue quality and not optimized. So just as a vague example going forward, a level 30 jedi sentinel goes into an FP and gets a loot box, and get a mastery, power, alacrity piece of gear commensurate with the character's level. The gear could be used by said sentinel but chances are mastery power crit or mastery power accuracy would be better. Furthermore, if said sentinel has crafted purple then the FP loot box is even less useful because the purple stats are higher.

 

I don't doubt there will always be players who will desire the very best gear for level (purple items) as well as those who will desire to optimize stats at every level, but I imagine that is a very small subset of the player base, and demand from that base is dwindling as companion gearing is removed and stats are simplified.

 

While I'm not convinced crafting will be useless come KotFE, I do feel crafting will take at least a small hit with some combination of less sales and / or less margin per sale.

Edited September 3, 2015 by DawnAskham

[asbalana]

I disagree, most current FP drops are blue quality and not optimized. So just as a vague example going forward, a level 30 jedi sentinel goes into an FP and gets a loot box, and get a mastery, power, alacrity piece of gear commensurate with the character's level. The gear could be used by said sentinel but chances are mastery power crit or mastery power accuracy would be better. Furthermore, if said sentinel has crafted purple then the FP loot box is even less useful because the purple stats are higher.

 

Which begs the question, for those who run FPs why run them more than once or twice if there is no gain in them?

 

If I can get the best gear in FPs, I have incentive to run them multiple times. But that will be at a cost to crafting. If I can't get better gear than I can craft, why run them multiple times?

[Khevar]

Which begs the question, for those who run FPs why run them more than once or twice if there is no gain in them?

 

If I can get the best gear in FPs, I have incentive to run them multiple times. But that will be at a cost to crafting. If I can't get better gear than I can craft, why run them multiple times?

HM Flashpoints haven't dropped good gear for over 2 years now, but people still run them.

[DawnAskham]

HM Flashpoints haven't dropped good gear for over 2 years now, but people still run them.

 

Few seem to run them given the lengthy queue times I get, even when on a healer or tank.

 

And in my experience, while players doing SM and up operations may find the gear to be poor, a lot of the players I meet in HMs will find upgrades (though typically only on the last boss / bonus boss).

 

Though I agree for most of the game's life, drops have been pretty poor with only the bonus boss and end boss providing anything of value.

[MSchuyler]

Eh?

 

1. You said this game's complexity may be being reduced to allow for a wider range of people to play.

2. asbalana gives an example of another game that lost players when the complexity was reduced.

 

This supports your argument how, exactly?

 

By this statement: " I tried WOW recently, seeing the writing on the wall here, and found it to be so dumbed down that I quickly left. "

 

If you will recall, I stated that I feared that although they might be attempting to widen the bar, it might be the case that the bar would NOT get wider, but just move down and alienate the players who enjoyed the intricacy of the game.

 

And then asbalana gave a perfect example of exactly that circumstance.

[Khevar]

@MSchuyler,

 

Well, perhaps I misunderstood. You made this statement:

Given how intricate the game is now, it takes a certain level of IQ to play successfully. Basically only a certain percentage of the population is sufficiently skilled enough to play it successfully.

Sounds like you're saying, this game is very intricate, and most people don't have the IQ to handle it.

 

Is that not what you meant?

[MSchuyler]

@MSchuyler,

 

Well, perhaps I misunderstood. You made this statement:

 

Sounds like you're saying, this game is very intricate, and most people don't have the IQ to handle it. Is that not what you meant?

 

I am saying that SOME people are insufficiently intelligent to play the game, not "most." My speculation (and it is only that) is that BW is simplifying the game (or "dumbing it down," if you will) in an attempt to attract players who either CANNOT (because they lack the intelligence) or WILL NOT (because they lack the motivation) play a game that is as intricate as SWTOR is today. In other words, they are reaching out to casual players at the expense of the hard core players, which they hope to retain as well. This will "lengthen the bar," so to speak, which is a way of saying they hope to attract a greater number of potential players.

 

As an example, they are apparently replacing strength, willpower, aim, and cunning with Mastery. That's one thing to learn instead of four things to learn. No longer will a player be tasked with learning the differences. It will be easier, less taxing on the intellect.

 

OK. You with me so far? Now, I ALSO said, in my first post, that IF this is, indeed, what BW is attempting to do, then my fear was that it might backfire because players such a those who frequent this crafting forum might decide the game has become too simple and no longer presents a challenge or the feeling of satisfaction in mastering something that really has worked just fine. There's no really good reason to change it. It's not broken (and I don't really give a FF if some people take issue with that.) If that disaffection happens, then the people who enjoy the complexity of the game will leave. Thus BW will have "moved the bar down" but kept it the same size. In other words, in attempting to increase the population of potential players attracted to the game, they failed and that population did not increase.

 

Here is the theory as simply as I can state it:

 

1. Bioware attempts to increase the player population by simplifying the game.

2. Players who enjoy the complexity dislike dumbing down the game and quit as a result.

3. Bioware thus fails to increase the player population. It just moves it, maybe.

 

That's a pretty simple proposition, really. That's what I said the first time. Perhaps I used too many words to say it. I apologize.

 

Than asbalana comes along and says he doesn't agree with this "IQ Theory" of mine and immediately states he quit WoW because they dumbed it down, thus providing a perfect example of what I was saying in the first place. He becomes living proof and an example of the theory. And I thought that was quite funny. I hope he did not take it personally.

 

Now I respect asbalana a great deal on this forum. I always pay attention to what he and psandak say, and I also have no issue with them disagreeing with me. That's just fine. We're all speculating here by reading the tea leaves and we all know it, which I also took pains to point out originally.

Edited September 3, 2015 by MSchuyler

[Aricus]

I disagree, most current FP drops are blue quality and not optimized. So just as a vague example going forward, a level 30 jedi sentinel goes into an FP and gets a loot box, and get a mastery, power, alacrity piece of gear commensurate with the character's level. The gear could be used by said sentinel but chances are mastery power crit or mastery power accuracy would be better. Furthermore, if said sentinel has crafted purple then the FP loot box is even less useful because the purple stats are higher.

 

Players don't really care about optimization when it comes to leveling up. They only care about that once they reach max level by which then they'll be getting most of their gear probably from FPs and other PVE activities. So yeah my point still stands.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Aricus

[MSchuyler]

Players don't really care about optimization when it comes to leveling up. They only care about that once they reach max level by which then they'll be getting most of their gear probably from FPs and other PVE activities. So yeah my point still stands.

 

The problem I have with this (and it may be just me) is that once I select a certain look for my character I want to retain that look. To switch to gear that drops just doesn't cut it for me, regardless of its stats. I don't want my guy or gal to look like that. I want more control. And because of the way things work right now I can usually craft mods that are higher than the drops and actually insert them in my own choice of gear because I am usually slightly over-leveled.

 

And THAT'S why dropped gear is largely useless to me, and if it drops as bound gear, I see this as a waste. I hate to just vendor it, but that's really the only thing I can do. I'm running my toons through the prelude to Revan and Rishi right now in hopes of getting all my guys up to 60 in preparation for the xpac. My guys are already at 178 before they even start this. I've found that if I vendor all the dropped loot that is so plentiful in these FP's and quests, it's about 250K in credits. I'm not really hot for the credits, frankly, but I value my storage space.

 

To me "optimization" means augmenting all your gear at the highest level where "maximization" means getting your gear higher than the drops will provide. That's a personal definition: I'm not insisting on it, but it represents a somewhat different approach.

[psandak]

Which begs the question, for those who run FPs why run them more than once or twice if there is no gain in them?

 

If I can get the best gear in FPs, I have incentive to run them multiple times. But that will be at a cost to crafting. If I can't get better gear than I can craft, why run them multiple times?

 

In my experience, most of the time, players run FPs multiple times for a few reasons:

 

primarily they run them for the comms: the daily and weekly quests can generate significant numbers of comms and players who do not raid can get raid level gear (sans set bonuses of course) by running lots of HMFPs. I know several players who run HMFPs on multiple toons just to gear up one character.

 

Then there are achievements: the only way to get achievements from FPs is to run FPs (some achievements require that you run the same instances upwards of 25 times). I personally do not care about achievements (if I get them great, if not so be it) but I know players who have dedicated their play time to getting EVERY achievement in the game. A couple are actually pretty close.

 

Then there is conquests: each week specific FPs are part of the conquest goals. Again I have lost interest, but there are those who really enjoy it.

 

Then you have those who run specific FPs for questlines like HK-51. I ran it once and now unlock HK (if I want) with credits. There are players who do that quest line over and over to unlock HK without paying for it.

 

Along those lines, each FP has a story and some players enjoy those stories. I know players who have leveled pub and imp characters just to run the "jedi prisoner" series of FPs in proper chronological order.

[Khevar]

*spoiler tags just for forum brevity*

I am saying that SOME people are insufficiently intelligent to play the game, not "most." My speculation (and it is only that) is that BW is simplifying the game (or "dumbing it down," if you will) in an attempt to attract players who either CANNOT (because they lack the intelligence) or WILL NOT (because they lack the motivation) play a game that is as intricate as SWTOR is today. In other words, they are reaching out to casual players at the expense of the hard core players, which they hope to retain as well. This will "lengthen the bar," so to speak, which is a way of saying they hope to attract a greater number of potential players.

 

As an example, they are apparently replacing strength, willpower, aim, and cunning with Mastery. That's one thing to learn instead of four things to learn. No longer will a player be tasked with learning the differences. It will be easier, less taxing on the intellect.

 

OK. You with me so far? Now, I ALSO said, in my first post, that IF this is, indeed, what BW is attempting to do, then my fear was that it might backfire because players such a those who frequent this crafting forum might decide the game has become too simple and no longer presents a challenge or the feeling of satisfaction in mastering something that really has worked just fine. There's no really good reason to change it. It's not broken (and I don't really give a FF if some people take issue with that.) If that disaffection happens, then the people who enjoy the complexity of the game will leave. Thus BW will have "moved the bar down" but kept it the same size. In other words, in attempting to increase the population of potential players attracted to the game, they failed and that population did not increase.

 

Here is the theory as simply as I can state it:

 

1. Bioware attempts to increase the player population by simplifying the game.

2. Players who enjoy the complexity dislike dumbing down the game and quit as a result.

3. Bioware thus fails to increase the player population. It just moves it, maybe.

 

That's a pretty simple proposition, really. That's what I said the first time. Perhaps I used too many words to say it. I apologize.

 

Than asbalana comes along and says he doesn't agree with this "IQ Theory" of mine and immediately states he quit WoW because they dumbed it down, thus providing a perfect example of what I was saying in the first place. He becomes living proof and an example of the theory. And I thought that was quite funny. I hope he did not take it personally.

 

Now I respect asbalana a great deal on this forum. I always pay attention to what he and psandak say, and I also have no issue with them disagreeing with me. That's just fine. We're all speculating here by reading the tea leaves and we all know it, which I also took pains to point out originally.

I get what you're saying. I also agree for the most part.

 

I'm not so sure I agree about the idea that the complexity of the game being beyond people from an IQ standpoint, though.

 

I think that it's more that some just don't find a more complex system fun. Not that they would struggle to figure it out, but the idea of expending the efffort TO figure it out isn't worth it to them, so they don't bother.

 

I mean, I found it fun to spend a an hour one Saturday at the ops dummy with MOX open practicing my rotation. But I would imagine I'm in the minority in that respect.

Just to clarify, what I found fun was watching my overall average dps go up as I practiced, and then going into the next raid, doing a better job, and beating the boss we were having a hard time with. The relative drudgery of "practicing" playing a video game had a payoff that made it worthwhile.

 

Take people that don't get a schematic after reverse engineering 10, 15, 20 or 30 tries and then come to the forums and complain. Others expect that as par for the course, and are willing to push through that because they know they'll get the schematic they want and do X with it (whatever the reason they wanted the schematic in the first place).

 

I think I meandered a bit, sorry. Anyway.

 

Whatever happens in 4.0, I hope that it holds it's draw for me. I really like Star Wars games, and there isn't much in the way of an alternative if this one changes too much in a direction I don't enjoy.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Khevar

[asbalana]

In my experience, most of the time, players run FPs multiple times for a few reasons:................

 

 

I see. There is a rational for those who run the flashpoints multiple times.

[asbalana]

............

Than asbalana comes along and says he doesn't agree with this "IQ Theory" of mine and immediately states he quit WoW because they dumbed it down, thus providing a perfect example of what I was saying in the first place. He becomes living proof and an example of the theory. And I thought that was quite funny. I hope he did not take it personally.

 

Now I respect asbalana a great deal on this forum. I always pay attention to what he and psandak say, and I also have no issue with them disagreeing with me. That's just fine. We're all speculating here by reading the tea leaves and we all know it, which I also took pains to point out originally.

 

I also respect you and indeed read all of your posts. I have always felt that there are truths on both sides of a debate and one's conclusion depends on the interpretation of and weight given to the counterbalancing arguments.

 

To me, the dumbing down was just one of multiple reasons why WOW is not the game for me any longer. I understand that there is a new expansion in the works there that it is being touted with the promise to "bring the game back". With the departure of Greg Street (Ghostcrawler), it will be interesting to see if the game can make a come back. I am perverted in my view though and do not believe anything that game devs say. To me, to go back to the old saw, if their lips are moving, they are lying.

 

I also have a different spin on the dumbing down move in many games. Perhaps it is to make the games more accessible to bottom feeders or the laziest among us and thus expand the customer base, but perhaps there is a simple other reason. It may be that the games are being dumbed down for the benefit of the gaming company and devs. Simply, a dumbed down game takes significantly less resources to run (mmo's are in one aspect hugh data bases) and less cost and effort to develop. I would note that with SWTORs poor engine and performance any stress relief benefits EA/BW. It is much cheaper to dumb down the game than improve it. For example, after all of the discussion is said and done, it is much easier to run and maintain a single main stat system than one with four main stats.

 

Modern business practices have changed from the old concept of providing the best quality product and building a loyal following to give them the least possible at the least cost for the most charge and slash and burn through your customer base replacing those who leave with new marks.

Edited September 4, 2015 by asbalana

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Add the recent conquest changes into the theme of crew skills taking a hit with KoTFE that has gone on in this thread.

 

Really hoping we see something positive for crew skills soon as it really is all doom and gloom so far.

[Draqsko]

Add the recent conquest changes into the theme of crew skills taking a hit with KoTFE that has gone on in this thread.

 

Really hoping we see something positive for crew skills soon as it really is all doom and gloom so far.

 

You won't like the positive, because in light of this change it is totally ironic.

 

And no I'm not telling either since I don't feel like getting banned again, not that it matters anymore but I'm not going out like that.

[Meraxos]

I also have a different spin on the dumbing down move in many games. Perhaps it is to make the games more accessible to bottom feeders or the laziest among us and thus expand the customer base, but perhaps there is a simple other reason. It may be that the games are being dumbed down for the benefit of the gaming company and devs. Simply, a dumbed down game takes significantly less resources to run (mmo's are in one aspect hugh data bases) and less cost and effort to develop. I would note that with SWTORs poor engine and performance any stress relief benefits EA/BW. It is much cheaper to dumb down the game than improve it. For example, after all of the discussion is said and done, it is much easier to run and maintain a single main stat system than one with four main stats.

 

Modern business practices have changed from the old concept of providing the best quality product and building a loyal following to give them the least possible at the least cost for the most charge and slash and burn through your customer base replacing those who leave with new marks.

I agree with this strongly. Ten years ago, when MMOs started to become very popular, most gaming companies were owned and managed by people who were gamers at heart. They made games they loved to play themselves and they could relate to their customers.

 

But now gaming is a very, very big business. Games are owned and managed by huge gaming or media conglomerates like EA or Sony or Microsoft. This means they are managed like any other big money property, by business school executives and corporate money guys who may never play games and only care about games as a means to profit. This is why games often now seem so lacking in heart and soul.

[Meraxos]

Add the recent conquest changes into the theme of crew skills taking a hit with KoTFE that has gone on in this thread.

 

Really hoping we see something positive for crew skills soon as it really is all doom and gloom so far.

I'm not sure they know what to do with crew skills. They probably left them for last.

 

Things we know:

You don't need to gear companions

Crafting not needed for conquest

More use of bolster for group content so average player does not have to min/max his gear

 

Where does this leave crafting? Seriously gutted most likely.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You won't like the positive, because in light of this change it is totally ironic.

 

And no I'm not telling either since I don't feel like getting banned again, not that it matters anymore but I'm not going out like that.

 

You're assuming you somehow are the only person who has access to the information you speak of, you're not.

 

Whilst I won't ever directly reference it I was including it in my statement on positive things coming forward being very little. Also it relies on some of them being actually true and one of the new things supposedly coming in would make little sense after BW telling us no new NiM ops and 2 being removed.

 

Otherwise official/unofficial ... I've seen nothing positive for crew skills.

 

I suppose I should justify that also and say crew skills as an income source. all things that will hurt crew skills in that regard and nothing positive that will overly negate the hurt that may be coming.