Theran Shan?

[IoNonSoEVero]

Same. Especially because this isn't the first time they've used this tactic (using someone as bait/diversion without their knowledge). Lana used Theron as bait/a hostage without his knowledge at one point; I can see them agreeing to pulling the wool over the eyes of the Commander in order to protect them. There's precedent.

 

Plus I still find it exceedingly odd that Theron wasn't shooting to kill when he shot at the Commander/Lana. And that he ended up shooting out the window, opening up an escape route, instead of taking a second proper shot at them. Every time I look at it again, it seems exceedingly obvious.

 

 

I totally think that Theron intended for Lana and the Commander to escape the train. He stuns Lana so he can make his little villain speech for whomever is listening in - and then he shoots out the window and warns them exactly of what's going to happen so they can get out. And then he left all the crystals for them. Either he's a triple agent or he was fighting his 'reprogramming' but he meant for them to escape.

 

But I really honestly do not think Lana had a clue about any of it...or that if she did have some notion at the beginning, she didn't have any idea how it was going to turn out. The way she's animated when Theron reveals himself as the traitor - that's not the face of someone who is in on it. (https://imgur.com/a/kmXYC) Also, even though she pulled the wool over on Theron in SoR, I don't think it's the same situation. IMHO Theron would have been expendable in her eyes if he didn't make it back in SoR - not so much with the Commander. Plus, if you're romancing Lana, the letter she sends you is pretty heartbreaking - she's basically beating herself up about it all and saying she failed you as a partner for failing to notice the betrayal, etc.

 

Plus, as someone else mentioned in another thread - the 'betrayal' speech Valkorion gives in the elevator in KOTET is identical whether you have Lana and Theron OR Senya and Arcann there. Valky's just messing with the Commander's head; not making a prophecy there.

[Dracofish]

Same. Especially because this isn't the first time they've used this tactic (using someone as bait/diversion without their knowledge). Lana used Theron as bait/a hostage without his knowledge at one point; I can see them agreeing to pulling the wool over the eyes of the Commander in order to protect them. There's precedent.

 

Plus I still find it exceedingly odd that Theron wasn't shooting to kill when he shot at the Commander/Lana. And that he ended up shooting out the window, opening up an escape route, instead of taking a second proper shot at them. Every time I look at it again, it seems exceedingly obvious.

 

That said, I'm still suuuuuuuuuuper skeptical (my face) when I think about Theron post-storyline, assuming that he is, in fact, a double/triple agent. BioWare has a horrific track record on SWTOR with letting potentially-killed LIs actually have a substantial (or really even relevant) role past their "could be killed" moment. That kind of treatment of Theron would, to be completely and utterly transparent, be the end of my SWTOR time. I'm not even that attached to Theron as a player, but as a RPer and story fan, I'd be too disappointed to continue after having a third character I enjoy needlessly fade into the dark.

 

I agree that I believe Lana is in on it. They didn't tell the Commander because the reaction has to be genuine. Just look at the Clone Wars episode where Obi-Wan fakes his death. Anakin is left in the dark and freaks the hell out...and his very real reaction is the only thing that sold the whole scheme. Different writers and media, I know, but this would make perfect sense.

 

I don't know if I would worry too much about Theron being turned into a paperweight after this is all said and done. Yes, they've done that with other companions who could have died (and even just old returning companions who didn't fit into the story), BUT...just look at Arcann. They've confirmed his romance...so that means new stuff out of him.

[SourOrange]

At this point we aren't even sure there will be a kill option- which I hope there isn't. If he was really in your corner the whole time, he may have decieved you, but there was never a betrayal. But of course for Bioware to sell the idea they'd have to make it seem otherwise.

[Nefla]

I agree that I believe Lana is in on it. They didn't tell the Commander because the reaction has to be genuine. Just look at the Clone Wars episode where Obi-Wan fakes his death. Anakin is left in the dark and freaks the hell out...and his very real reaction is the only thing that sold the whole scheme. Different writers and media, I know, but this would make perfect sense.

 

I don't know if I would worry too much about Theron being turned into a paperweight after this is all said and done. Yes, they've done that with other companions who could have died (and even just old returning companions who didn't fit into the story), BUT...just look at Arcann. They've confirmed his romance...so that means new stuff out of him.

If that's true, it's another clumsy one-size fits all scenario. Maybe certain characters like the Smuggler or Bounty Hunter are bad liars, but the Agent is a career spy and has infiltrated and manipulated his way across the galaxy while the troopers, jedi and sith characters couldn't be any worse at acting than Lana who has not shown any affinity for it (nor for spy-work in general despite being given the position of minister of intelligence based only on her merit as BioWare's favored waifu). The consular would probably be excellent at fooling everyone since her expression at being betrayed would be her natural and authentic to her-which is to say expressionless and emotionless as always. Not telling the commander is extremely dangerous not only to the commander but to Theron if said commander is an evil character and will kill him for his "betrayal."

[Dracofish]

If that's true, it's another clumsy one-size fits all scenario. Maybe certain characters like the Smuggler or Bounty Hunter are bad liars, but the Agent is a career spy and has infiltrated and manipulated his way across the galaxy while the troopers, jedi and sith characters couldn't be any worse at acting than Lana who has not shown any affinity for it (nor for spy-work in general despite being given the position of minister of intelligence based only on her merit as BioWare's favored waifu). The consular would probably be excellent at fooling everyone since her expression at being betrayed would be her natural and authentic to her-which is to say expressionless and emotionless as always. Not telling the commander is extremely dangerous not only to the commander but to Theron if said commander is an evil character and will kill him for his "betrayal."

 

Wouldn't be the first time they've gone "one size fits all" with story. I tried running a "muggle" through FE/ET and it just screamed that the story was written with a Force-user in mind...again, "one size fits all."

[IoNonSoEVero]

If that's true, it's another clumsy one-size fits all scenario. Maybe certain characters like the Smuggler or Bounty Hunter are bad liars, but the Agent is a career spy and has infiltrated and manipulated his way across the galaxy while the troopers, jedi and sith characters couldn't be any worse at acting than Lana who has not shown any affinity for it (nor for spy-work in general despite being given the position of minister of intelligence based only on her merit as BioWare's favored waifu). The consular would probably be excellent at fooling everyone since her expression at being betrayed would be her natural and authentic to her-which is to say expressionless and emotionless as always. Not telling the commander is extremely dangerous not only to the commander but to Theron if said commander is an evil character and will kill him for his "betrayal."

 

IMHO these are major points. To be in on this charade, Lana would now have to be engaged in an Academy-Award worthy virtuoso acting performance, including numerous bald-faced lies to her love interest, and she's just not good at that. Even when she frees the Commander from carbonite, her big plan involves strolling into the building in her own clothes without any sort of cover or disguise. My waifu is not good at deception.

 

Plus, in the dialogue and letter to the LI, she really is beating herself up, much in the same way she was when Senya took off with Arcann. In contrast when she lets Theron get captured in SoR she very noticeably has no real regrets about it unless she's pressed to apologize. She's pretty much like, "Yeah. Um. They got him. We should get him back. Yep."

[Nefla]

Wouldn't be the first time they've gone "one size fits all" with story. I tried running a "muggle" through FE/ET and it just screamed that the story was written with a Force-user in mind...again, "one size fits all."

Yeah I'm getting really tired of it and all the other BS they've been doing. I've reached the tipping point and now I'm bitter and annoying. Compare all my posts now with my posts from a year ago and it's like two different people. Like a switch was flipped. I don't know what to do with myself and I haven't been able to come down from this state of being extremely bitter and steamed :/

 

 

IMHO these are major points. To be in on this charade, Lana would now have to be engaged in an Academy-Award worthy virtuoso acting performance, including numerous bald-faced lies to her love interest, and she's just not good at that. Even when she frees the Commander from carbonite, her big plan involves strolling into the building in her own clothes without any sort of cover or disguise. My waifu is not good at deception.

 

Plus, in the dialogue and letter to the LI, she really is beating herself up, much in the same way she was when Senya took off with Arcann. In contrast when she lets Theron get captured in SoR she very noticeably has no real regrets about it unless she's pressed to apologize. She's pretty much like, "Yeah. Um. They got him. We should get him back. Yep."

That's what makes sense and is consistent at least (Lana not being in on it) that doesn't mean they're not doing it however. Sense and consistency have been going out the window in favor of shock value and random garbage as well as forcing square pegs into round holes story-wise.

 

As a side note, I'm glad someone else thought the Lana rescue plan was bogus. She was the least fitting person for that particular mission and just bludgeoned her way in. It would have made much more sense for Theron who was a spy and had infiltrated enemy populations before or Koth who was a local and former member of Zakuul's military so he'd know more about their procedures and could pass for a knight. They didn't put much thought into it.

They either should have changed the scenario to something where Lana's brute force tactics would make sense and be needed or they should have had Theron or Koth sneak in.

[IoNonSoEVero]

That's what makes sense and is consistent at least (Lana not being in on it) that doesn't mean they're not doing it however. Sense and consistency have been going out the window in favor of shock value and random garbage as well as forcing square pegs into round holes story-wise.

 

As a side note, I'm glad someone else thought the Lana rescue plan was bogus. She was the least fitting person for that particular mission and just bludgeoned her way in. It would have made much more sense for Theron who was a spy and had infiltrated enemy populations before or Koth who was a local and former member of Zakuul's military so he'd know more about their procedures and could pass for a knight. They didn't put much thought into it.

They either should have changed the scenario to something where Lana's brute force tactics would make sense and be needed or they should have had Theron or Koth sneak in.

 

Sad but true. The Game of Thrones comment that (Charles?) made bothered me a lot. When it comes to LI, IMHO we should not be talking GoT here.

 

IMHO Lana probably went in because there was some sense of urgency - either she thought the Outlander was running out of time (which would have made sense because they were being carbonite poisoned to death), or something. But as Koth said, it was the most suicidal rescue mission in history. I love Lana dearly but that rescue was a disaster.

 

IMHO the best person would have been Senya - as much as I absolutely hate her, she would have known the Knights' protocols backward and forward, and she had the armor already. Or, Lana could have gotten Knights' armor herself; since she's Force sensitive she would have passed muster the same way the Commander did in KOTET Chapter 6 when they ran around in the Knights' disguises.

 

Or both Lana and Senya together. All they might have had to do is pose as Knights, put the Commander in handcuffs and march her out to Koth's shuttle, with some claim that Arcann was going to torture her or use her as an example or something.

 

And, um, WHY was HK-55 left on the shuttle with Koth? He would have been a lot more useful helping with the rescue.

[IoNonSoEVero]

And someone else once pointed out here that Lana's not shown doing things that work to her strengths. Like in Intelligence, she's an analyst. She's trained as a researcher, and she's great at finding information and getting people together (ie, the Revanite plot, where the Outlander was being held, bringing everyone to Odessen, etc.). She's not great at carrying out missions because that's what Operatives do, and she isn't one - so when put in positions where she has to do that, it doesn't always work out very well to say the least.

[Dracofish]

Sad but true. The Game of Thrones comment that (Charles?) made bothered me a lot. When it comes to LI, IMHO we should not be talking GoT here.

 

 

What was the GoT comment?

[IoNonSoEVero]

What was the GoT comment?

 

On one of the Bad Feeling podcasts, IIRC Charles made a comment that was summarized as such:

 

Traitor Theron upset people, this was an intended Game of Thrones-style, Charles wanted to convey lessons of trust and ensure the traitor was deeply rooted in the story and lore.

 

Combined with the Twitter comment he made where he asked fans to trust the writers/writing, I do hope he's implying that we should trust everything will work out with Theron, but who knows, since a lot of GoT stuff seems to be for shock value.

[Nefla]

Sad but true. The Game of Thrones comment that (Charles?) made bothered me a lot. When it comes to LI, IMHO we should not be talking GoT here.

 

IMHO Lana probably went in because there was some sense of urgency - either she thought the Outlander was running out of time (which would have made sense because they were being carbonite poisoned to death), or something. But as Koth said, it was the most suicidal rescue mission in history. I love Lana dearly but that rescue was a disaster.

 

IMHO the best person would have been Senya - as much as I absolutely hate her, she would have known the Knights' protocols backward and forward, and she had the armor already. Or, Lana could have gotten Knights' armor herself; since she's Force sensitive she would have passed muster the same way the Commander did in KOTET Chapter 6 when they ran around in the Knights' disguises.

 

Or both Lana and Senya together. All they might have had to do is pose as Knights, put the Commander in handcuffs and march her out to Koth's shuttle, with some claim that Arcann was going to torture her or use her as an example or something.

 

And, um, WHY was HK-55 left on the shuttle with Koth? He would have been a lot more useful helping with the rescue.

Like switch the recruitment order so that you start of with Senya instead of Koth and then get Koth later? And yeah I agree, if they were going to use brute force why leave HK behind? I guess Koth needed protection? That's another thing though, why was Koth parked somewhere weird and suspicious instead of waiting in a normal place where civilians were allowed? The carbonite prison was attached to the city, not way off on its' own island or something. Park at the shopping mall next door instead of conspicuously on the prison wall where we don't even meet him anyway lol. I just want to rewrite the whole KotFE story (and Theron should have been there from the beginning too) >.<

[IoNonSoEVero]

Like switch the recruitment order so that you start of with Senya instead of Koth and then get Koth later? And yeah I agree, if they were going to use brute force why leave HK behind? I guess Koth needed protection? That's another thing though, why was Koth parked somewhere weird and suspicious instead of waiting in a normal place where civilians were allowed? The carbonite prison was attached to the city, not way off on its' own island or something. Park at the shopping mall next door instead of conspicuously on the prison wall where we don't even meet him anyway lol. I just want to rewrite the whole KotFE story (and Theron should have been there from the beginning too) >.<

 

I think that they could have ostensibly worked it so that Senya, Koth, Lana, T7-01, HK-55 and Theron were all there from the start. Example: Senya and Lana get into the carbonite room dressed as Knights, free the Outlander and march her out, like a "prisoner." Meanwhile, T7-01 and Theron are busy slicing the security databases so they can get out, and HK-55 is covering their exit. They get the Outlander to Koth's ship, and maybe at that point someone catches on and shoots at it, leading to the swamp/Gravestone.

 

I love that Lana rescues me, but there could have been a larger team. And I suppose for those that had romanced Lana or Theron, they could have flagged it so that the romanced companion was the first person you saw, the same way they have Lana or Koth rescue you from Asylum based on the flags. They could have had Senya working with either Lana or Theron disguised as a Knight, depending on the romance flag that was set.

 

There's that point right after being rescued where the Outlander says something like "This isn't a very large crew," and Lana's response is" Well, it's the best I could get."

[BlueShiftRecall]

I love that Lana rescues me, but there could have been a larger team. And I suppose for those that had romanced Lana or Theron, they could have flagged it so that the romanced companion was the first person you saw, the same way they have Lana or Koth rescue you from Asylum based on the flags. They could have had Senya working with either Lana or Theron disguised as a Knight, depending on the romance flag that was set.

 

I have always wondered why they didn't go this route.

 

Romance Lana she and Koth rescue you like we get, Romance Theron he and Koth rescue you and we meet up with Lana on Odesson.

 

Pub character, no romance with Lana/Theron = Theron by default.

Imp character, no romance with Lana/Theron = Lana by default.

Edited October 10, 2017 by BlueShiftRecall

[IoNonSoEVero]

I have always wondered why they didn't go this route.

 

Romance Lana she and Koth rescue you like we get, Romance Theron and Koth rescue you and we meet up with Lana on Odesson.

 

Pub character, no romance with Lana/Theron = Theron by default.

Imp character, no romance with Lana/Theron = Lana by default.

 

That would have made a lot of sense. And they could have done more with both romances that way. There is different dialogue if Lana was romances in SoR in a few chapters, but they could have made the rescue really romantic for those characters with her or Theron as a Li.

[Nefla]

I have always wondered why they didn't go this route.

 

Romance Lana she and Koth rescue you like we get, Romance Theron he and Koth rescue you and we meet up with Lana on Odesson.

 

Pub character, no romance with Lana/Theron = Theron by default.

Imp character, no romance with Lana/Theron = Lana by default.

I agree and this always bothered me as well. Especially since on my Trooper at least I was super mean to Lana and told her she sucked and sabotaged the Empire when working together every chance I got. Why would she immediately think "I desperately need this ally" (and then later in the elevator act like they're BFFs longingly staring at him and telling him how great it is to see him)? It would make much more sense for Theron who was Republic loyal to want to get my Republic loyal Trooper(who he'd also had an affair with) and vice versa. Even though my warrior didn't romance either, he was loyal to the Empire and one of their greatest weapons. Lana makes sense for him.

[Dracofish]

As a "Theron-mancer," I would have liked to have seen him earlier than Ch 9, but I can see how having a Force-user rescue the Outlander would be the better choice. That place is crawling with Knights and Vaylin...Theron would have been torn to shreds. Theron is capable in a fight, but putting him up against all that is kinda...out there. Did it have to be Lana? No, it probably would have been better as Senya. Perhaps even keeping Lana out of the picture completely til Ch 9, and introduce both her and Theron together.

 

Even T-7 was better off alone because he could just blend in and herp-a-derp around below notice as a droid...because who looks at droids?

Edited October 10, 2017 by Dracofish

[Avashnea]

Because Lana is better I much prefer her thank you very much. But all in all i'd expect to see Theran at some point.

Lana sucks, Theron is the one that did everything to build the Alliance. She didn't do ANYTHING.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Lana sucks, Theron is the one that did everything to build the Alliance. She didn't do ANYTHING.

 

She only found the Outlander, sprung them, found Odessen, talked people from both factions into coming to Odessen, assembled the initial Alliance and provided valuable support. Nope, nothing at all...

[IoNonSoEVero]

I agree and this always bothered me as well. Especially since on my Trooper at least I was super mean to Lana and told her she sucked and sabotaged the Empire when working together every chance I got. Why would she immediately think "I desperately need this ally" (and then later in the elevator act like they're BFFs longingly staring at him and telling him how great it is to see him)? It would make much more sense for Theron who was Republic loyal to want to get my Republic loyal Trooper(who he'd also had an affair with) and vice versa. Even though my warrior didn't romance either, he was loyal to the Empire and one of their greatest weapons. Lana makes sense for him.

 

If you're mean to dear Lana in SoR she should just leave you in carbonite....

 

In all seriousness a SoR type split where Theron was there for Reps and Lana for Imps, if there was no romance, did mame more sense.

 

It actually did bother me that one could be a jerk to Lana or Theron in SoR and Ziost and still romance them in KOTFE.

And thag one can be totally rude to them and still get their help. I at least wish the script would let them tell off the players that do that.

[DAWUSS]

I still think Lana is a part of this too. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out the two of them cooked up the idea.

 

And then the Republic AND the Empire want you dead too? That could be interesting. Nobody of significance would be in your corner.

[Swingkittie]

If you're mean to dear Lana in SoR she should just leave you in carbonite....

 

In all seriousness a SoR type split where Theron was there for Reps and Lana for Imps, if there was no romance, did mame more sense.

 

It actually did bother me that one could be a jerk to Lana or Theron in SoR and Ziost and still romance them in KOTFE.

And thag one can be totally rude to them and still get their help. I at least wish the script would let them tell off the players that do that.

 

I was actually waiting for that and it never happened. My agent forced Lana to resign calling her completely incompetent and disagreed with Darth Marr appointing her to head Sith Intelligence. My Warrior killed the jedi on Ziost and my Bounty Hunter romanced Theron but when he "broke up" with her on Yavin instead of kissing him, she threatened him. And on Ziost had his Jedi friend taken away by Lana. Yet I had romance options in chapter 9 for both of them. I was expecting Theron to remember those things about my characters, but maybe he is the forgive and forget type? I don't know....

[Nefla]

As a "Theron-mancer," I would have liked to have seen him earlier than Ch 9, but I can see how having a Force-user rescue the Outlander would be the better choice. That place is crawling with Knights and Vaylin...Theron would have been torn to shreds. Theron is capable in a fight, but putting him up against all that is kinda...out there. Did it have to be Lana? No, it probably would have been better as Senya. Perhaps even keeping Lana out of the picture completely til Ch 9, and introduce both her and Theron together.

 

Even T-7 was better off alone because he could just blend in and herp-a-derp around below notice as a droid...because who looks at droids?

The smart thing would be to sneak in and sneak out without fighting in the first place though. Personally I think Senya would probably be a bad idea since Vaylin can sense her specifically and would hone in on her and you. Theron could do what he did on the Ascendant Spear and impersonate the enemy, sneak in, sabotage them, and in this case get you and sneak you out. T7 By himself is also a good idea. Nobody suspects astromechs ever.

 

I was actually waiting for that and it never happened. My agent forced Lana to resign calling her completely incompetent and disagreed with Darth Marr appointing her to head Sith Intelligence. My Warrior killed the jedi on Ziost and my Bounty Hunter romanced Theron but when he "broke up" with her on Yavin instead of kissing him, she threatened him. And on Ziost had his Jedi friend taken away by Lana. Yet I had romance options in chapter 9 for both of them. I was expecting Theron to remember those things about my characters, but maybe he is the forgive and forget type? I don't know....

In all seriousness a SoR type split where Theron was there for Reps and Lana for Imps, if there was no romance, did mame more sense.

 

It actually did bother me that one could be a jerk to Lana or Theron in SoR and Ziost and still romance them in KOTFE.

And thag one can be totally rude to them and still get their help. I at least wish the script would let them tell off the players that do that.

Yeah I hate these instances of the characters just disregarding your past actions we get mushed into a "one size fits all" more and more.

 

If you're mean to dear Lana in SoR she should just leave you in carbonite....

Yes she should, I don't want her around. Valkorion is better company lmao

[IoNonSoEVero]

The smart thing would be to sneak in and sneak out without fighting in the first place though. Personally I think Senya would probably be a bad idea since Vaylin can sense her specifically and would hone in on her and you. Theron could do what he did on the Ascendant Spear and impersonate the enemy, sneak in, sabotage them, and in this case get you and sneak you out. T7 By himself is also a good idea. Nobody suspects astromechs ever.

 

I have to disagree, I really think they needed someone Force sensitive. T7 was good to have along but they also needed someone who could administer the antidote and perhaps physically help the Outlander, as Lana does at one point. Due to the carbonite they were sick and all. Koth was a wanted fugitive and his name and DNA would have been in their system. If they had used a forger like they do in C 13 it might have worked to send in Senya, posing as Vaylin, to clear a path so the others xould hustle the Outlander out without a fight. Or perhaps, Lana was the right choice but should have worn a disguise and had a better backup team.

 

Yes she should, I don't want her around. Valkorion is better company lmao

 

More Lana for me, it is all good. If she can't be appreciated, send her my way. I will take a game without Theron, Quinn, Arcann and Senya in exchange.

[Nefla]

I have to disagree, I really think they needed someone Force sensitive. T7 was good to have along but they also needed someone who could administer the antidote and perhaps physically help the Outlander, as Lana does at one point. Due to the carbonite they were sick and all. Koth was a wanted fugitive and his name and DNA would have been in their system. If they had used a forger like they do in C 13 it might have worked to send in Senya, posing as Vaylin, to clear a path so the others xould hustle the Outlander out without a fight. Or perhaps, Lana was the right choice but should have worn a disguise and had a better backup team.

 

More Lana for me, it is all good. If she can't be appreciated, send her my way. I will take a game without Theron, Quinn, Arcann and Senya in exchange.

I'll trade you all my Lanas for your Therons, Quinns, Arcanns, and Senyas then XD You know what I think would be cool is if there had been a whole group of characters already formed into a small but budding resistance movement (not a big army with lots of sith, jedi, etc...already in their ranks) working out of the back of skeezy shops and in back alleys, hiding in the city, etc...The group could have coordinated to get you out with each person doing a different aspect of the plan. Slicers, people infiltrating in disguise, people creating a distraction elsewhere, etc...As it was the plan was extremely stupid no matter who we had carrying it out. "Just go straight in and walk out with the commander-oh and despite his sickness, he'll have to fight too."