Jump to content

3.2 - Class Design Clarification: Why Play Fury, When Rage Is Better In Every Aspect?

revcrisis

By revcrisis
in Sentinel / Marauder

 Share

Recommended Posts

revcrisis

revcrisis

Posted
Posted (edited)

To preface, I've been a 2,000 rated Marauder/Sentinel in Seasons 1-3. This season, has been very disappointing. I was happy to see some Fury changes in 3.2 However, I'd like some clarification from the developers on the class design goals of Fury vs Rage in PVP. As it stands, Rage is a better offensive and defensive spec by a significant margin.

 

History: In 1.0~2.0, Marauders were different than Juggernauts because of our dual wield off-hand damage. Our talent point called "Dual Wield Mastery" increased off-hand damage by 36%. This made sense in terms of class design. We could output more damage but we had less defensives. We were more offensive (a true raider foraging ahead), a Juggernaut was more defensive (a true heavy armor force on the battlefield). However In 3.0, there really is no reason to play Fury anymore. We lost "Dual Wield Mastery". We lose the ability to use Bloodthirst in Arenas, and many other classes now have the 20% healing debuff that was so prized. In 3.2, Rage will outperform Fury in every aspect - both offensively and defensively. Let's review:

 

Fury Marauder:

  • 6 seconds of stun/control immunity every 30 seconds. 20% uptime.
  • Undying Rage: 4(6) seconds of 99% damage reduction.... on a 3 minute CD. Cannot be used while stunned.
  • Saber Ward
  • Cloak of Pain: Our one great DCD. Thank god we have this.
  • Force Camouflage: 4 seconds of temporary invisibility. Cannot DPS while active.
  • Obfuscate: Unfortunately white damage only
  • Predation: Using it sacrifices your own DPS/resources. Using this in Fury spec absolutely kills your DPS because no "Destruction" buff and not enough Rage to use big hitting abilities.
  • No Bloodthirst in Arenas. Deadly Throw is removed.

 

Rage Juggernaut:

  • 11~12 second Force Charge (Warmonger Utility) which will now grant 4 seconds of immunity to control and stuns. 30-35% uptime on control immunity.
  • 3(5) seconds of Saber Reflect. Amazing offensive DCD especially under focus fire.
  • Saber Ward with passive 2 seconds of "Blade Turning"
  • 12 charges of Enraged Defense that last 15 seconds - Heal to Full, 2nd Life. Can be used while stunned. Can be reduced to 90 seconds cooldown with a utility point. Yes, 90 freaking seconds of Heal2Full. Hands down, the best DCD in the game.
  • Endure Pain - 30% maximum HP increase
  • Intercede - In 3.2, breaks all roots and movement impairing effects. Also helps a friendly teammate take 20% less damage. Intercede will be awesome for Rage Juggernauts in 3.2.
  • 2 taunts to help teammates take 30% less damage
  • Force Push - 2nd stun (Maras only get Force Choke) and a reset on Leap->Unstoppable. You can have back to back 8 seconds of control immunity. You're looking at close to 40% uptime of control immunity if you factor this Force Charge refresh into a 30 second window.
  • Single Saber Mastery - Increases weapon damage by 20% passively. Their Ravage actually hits harder than a Marauder's now. And they have 1 weapon. And we have 2. One word: Why?
  • Retaliation: OFF THE GCD ability to add burst. Raging Burst + Retaliation? Yeap. Why do Marauders, an offensive minded class, not have Retaliation anymore?

 

So tell me, what is the reason we should play a Fury Marauder in PVP? What does a Fury Marauder do better than a Rage Juggernaut both offensively and defensively? What does a Fury marauder bring to his teammates? We can't use our predation for teammates because it kills our resources and DPS. We can't heal to full and have a 2nd life. We have no taunts to help teammates take less damage. We have no intercede to move 30 meters at will. Where is the class design here? Where is the AC separation?

 

In 3.2's Fury, all you've created is a less damaging, more gimped, squishy version of Rage that plays almost exactly the same. Where are the perks that Marauders had in 2.0 that Juggernauts did not have? Where is our off-hand damage emphasis? Why is "Defensive Forms" not a baseline ability, when Juggernauts receive "Single Saber Mastery" as a passive baseline? I love the Marauder play style, especially Fury. Please do not forget that we are not just a gimped little brother of Rage Juggernauts.

Edited by revcrisis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Svarthrafn

Svarthrafn

Posted
Posted (edited)
This shows it pretty well. Juggs are pretty ridiculous right now when compared to marauders. Extremely difficult if you end up on one 1v1 unless the player is an idiot or his cooldowns are down while yours are still available. Edited by Svarthrafn
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TurtlesAWD

TurtlesAWD

Posted
Posted
Actually OP I would like to ask, is cloak of pain really that good? I've never liked it. I feel like if the defensive boosts were that good they could stop hitting you until it falls off and if they don't have to stop hitting you, it probably isn't doing enough defensively. Plus the damage to attacker aspect just feels weak. But I haven't done serious high level pvp on a marauder and in your post you seem to have some appreciation for cloak of pain.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revcrisis

revcrisis

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
Actually OP I would like to ask, is cloak of pain really that good? I've never liked it. I feel like if the defensive boosts were that good they could stop hitting you until it falls off and if they don't have to stop hitting you, it probably isn't doing enough defensively. Plus the damage to attacker aspect just feels weak. But I haven't done serious high level pvp on a marauder and in your post you seem to have some appreciation for cloak of pain.

 

Yes, Cloak of Pain is amazing. It's additive 20% DR. Meaning as a Fury Marauder, we have potentially 30 seconds of 50% damage reduction. Scroll over your Character Sheet when activating CoP and you'll see. Its damage does add up over the course of a fight, especially if you spec into "Cloak of Carnage". It is by and far our best DCD and I'm very glad we have it.

Edited by revcrisis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DethlaHadyn

DethlaHadyn

Posted
Posted
To preface, I've been a 2,000 rated Marauder/Sentinel in Seasons 1-3. This season, has been very disappointing. I was happy to see some Fury changes in 3.2 However, I'd like some clarification from the developers on the class design goals of Fury vs Rage in PVP. As it stands, Rage is a better offensive and defensive spec by a significant margin.

 

History: In 1.0~2.0, Marauders were different than Juggernauts because of our dual wield off-hand damage. Our talent point called "Dual Wield Mastery" increased off-hand damage by 36%. This made sense in terms of class design. We could output more damage but we had less defensives. We were more offensive (a true raider foraging ahead), a Juggernaut was more defensive (a true heavy armor force on the battlefield). However In 3.0, there really is no reason to play Fury anymore. We lost "Dual Wield Mastery". We lose the ability to use Bloodthirst in Arenas, and many other classes now have the 20% healing debuff that was so prized. In 3.2, Rage will outperform Fury in every aspect - both offensively and defensively. Let's review:

 

Fury Marauder:

  • 6 seconds of stun/control immunity every 30 seconds. 20% uptime.
  • Undying Rage: 4(6) seconds of 99% damage reduction.... on a 3 minute CD. Cannot be used while stunned.
  • Saber Ward
  • Cloak of Pain: Our one great DCD. Thank god we have this.
  • Force Camouflage: 4 seconds of temporary invisibility. Cannot DPS while active.
  • Obfuscate: Unfortunately white damage only
  • Predation: Using it sacrifices your own DPS/resources. Using this in Fury spec absolutely kills your DPS because no "Destruction" buff and not enough Rage to use big hitting abilities.
  • No Bloodthirst in Arenas. Deadly Throw is removed.

 

Rage Juggernaut:

  • 11~12 second Force Charge (Warmonger Utility) which will now grant 4 seconds of immunity to control and stuns. 30-35% uptime on control immunity.
  • 3(5) seconds of Saber Reflect. Amazing offensive DCD especially under focus fire.
  • Saber Ward with passive 2 seconds of "Blade Turning"
  • 12 charges of Enraged Defense that last 15 seconds - Heal to Full, 2nd Life. Can be used while stunned. Can be reduced to 90 seconds cooldown with a utility point. Yes, 90 freaking seconds of Heal2Full. Hands down, the best DCD in the game.
  • Endure Pain - 30% maximum HP increase
  • Intercede - In 3.2, breaks all roots and movement impairing effects. Also helps a friendly teammate take 20% less damage. Intercede will be awesome for Rage Juggernauts in 3.2.
  • 2 taunts to help teammates take 30% less damage
  • Force Push - 2nd stun (Maras only get Force Choke) and a reset on Leap->Unstoppable. You can have back to back 8 seconds of control immunity. You're looking at close to 40% uptime of control immunity if you factor this Force Charge refresh into a 30 second window.
  • Single Saber Mastery - Increases weapon damage by 20% passively. Their Ravage actually hits harder than a Marauder's now. And they have 1 weapon. And we have 2. One word: Why?
  • Retaliation: OFF THE GCD ability to add burst. Raging Burst + Retaliation? Yeap. Why do Marauders, an offensive minded class, not have Retaliation anymore?

 

So tell me, what is the reason we should play a Fury Marauder in PVP? What does a Fury Marauder do better than a Rage Juggernaut both offensively and defensively? What does a Fury marauder bring to his teammates? We can't use our predation for teammates because it kills our resources and DPS. We can't heal to full and have a 2nd life. We have no taunts to help teammates take less damage. We have no intercede to move 30 meters at will. Where is the class design here? Where is the AC separation?

 

In 3.2's Fury, all you've created is a less damaging, more gimped, squishy version of Rage that plays almost exactly the same. Where are the perks that Marauders had in 2.0 that Juggernauts did not have? Where is our off-hand damage emphasis? Why is "Defensive Forms" not a baseline ability, when Juggernauts receive "Single Saber Mastery" as a passive baseline? I love the Marauder play style, especially Fury. Please do not forget that we are not just a gimped little brother of Rage Juggernauts.

 

Great post. I've asked as well, "why the hell do we have two sabers?"

 

The fact that the offhand damage is so minisicule, coupled with the horrible offhand accuracy, it really makes you wonder.

 

I think there should definitely be room for another revamp on what it means to have two sabers.

 

I'd suggest a buff that would include a temporary 100% offhand chance, and that would include all offhand strikes as additional counters for our Fury stacks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Svarthrafn

Svarthrafn

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'd really appreciate Force Push.

 

It feels like marauders lack situational ability. I especially miss Force Push in huttball and every fricking arena that has elevated platforms/surfaces. Marauders don't feel disruptive at all like (all of) the juggernaut specs can be.

Edited by Svarthrafn
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DethlaHadyn

DethlaHadyn

Posted
Posted
I remember back when people used to ask "why play a Rage Juggernaut when Rage marauders are so much better?"

 

#theGoodOldDays

 

Lol no doubt. It was back in those days where a person's ability to milk all the juggernaut's utility was barely enough to compete, and appreciated by so few. Maybe in time every class will have consecutive fotm moments, and the kids will be completely confused what to play. Welcome to the "age of dcd's" lol

 

That said, I'm actually quite intrigued by the proposed fury changes. Problem is of course the cooldown durations. In theory, is 6 seconds of complete godmode equivalent to 15 seconds of retaliatory h2full...hmm. I definitely would like to see a 100% offhand chance buff, but I actually like marauder fury better than jug rage. That's probably because Ive been playing vengeance since 2.0. It's just a personal preference that doesn't include which AC has better cooldowns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
revcrisis

revcrisis

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
I remember back when people used to ask "why play a Rage Juggernaut when Rage marauders are so much better?"

 

#theGoodOldDays

I too remember this. But that was before:

  • Juggernaut's Enraged Defense re-work to 10 charges
  • Bloodthirst usable in 8s and arenas
  • Deadly throw healing debuff (Maras and Snipers were the only DPS to have this)
  • Undying rage on a ~1.5 minute CD with health penalty up-front and health penalty reduced to 33%
  • 36% off-hand damage increase via talent

 

Oh how times have changed.

Edited by revcrisis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Atrabilious

Atrabilious

Posted
Posted
I'm just gonna wholeheartedly agree with this post. I've been thinking it ever since I dueled a geared juggernaut on Oricon... I thought I might be able to beat him, we both had 2018, but he destroyed me. Did as much damage than me, plus defensive cooldowns, I didn't stand a chance. It's aggravating how hard it is to kill one and seeing the damage they dish out at the same time. Makes me wish I would've gone jugg instead at lv10.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TACeMossie

TACeMossie

Posted
Posted (edited)

I agree with most of the OP, though there are some factual errors

 

1. Retaliation is only off the GCD in tank spec

2. The +20% weapon damage doesn't effect the whole thing, just the weapon contribution. The offhand is 30% of weapon damage with 2/3 accuracy, so the Fury Mara has more variation (due to misses) but has a higher peak and the same average

Edited by TACeMossie
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CameoCream

CameoCream

Posted
Posted

Question.

 

Why does any of this matter? Bioware has already continuously pushed back any treatment to Sentinels, and expedited significant buffs/nerfs to others. None of this will do anything, we will just continue to be ignored, and lied to through golden text.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...