So I just PuGed a ToS....

[MissButtercup]

Man...I'd love to be raiding right now, and not losing staring contest after staring contest with the wall at the office. Jealous.

 

Or in classrooms learning. Let us go HOME and play swtor!

 

Anyways, HM person here or however you want to refer to me. I want SM Underlurker to be looked at as well. Challenge is good and all, but it is way overtuned for current content.

 

By overtuned I am referring to the ridiculously high amount of dps needed for this fight. I think healing requirements are fine. Tanking this is fine. Most of the mechanics (bar the cross of fail) are fine. Reduce the health on the adds. This would allow melee to focus on boss and most groups to not have to exclude melee from the fight.

[Shwarzchild]

Or in classrooms learning. Let us go HOME and play swtor!

 

Anyways, HM person here or however you want to refer to me. I want SM Underlurker to be looked at as well. Challenge is good and all, but it is way overtuned for current content.

 

By overtuned I am referring to the ridiculously high amount of dps needed for this fight. I think healing requirements are fine. Tanking this is fine. Most of the mechanics (bar the cross of fail) are fine. Reduce the health on the adds. This would allow melee to focus on boss and most groups to not have to exclude melee from the fight.

 

I'd kill to be running some hard mode or nightmare dread palace. This whole being an adult thing has seriously gotten in the way of fun.

 

I'm cool with hitting underlurker with a nerf bat. I frankly just don't really care that much about it anymore. It still actually shocks me that more people complain about underlurker rather than sword squad. I feel like that's the much harder fight anyway. But it's all good.

[MisterBlackJack]

Exactly!

 

The "hardcore" players should be clearing HM, not wasting their uber talent on SM. Good players SHOULD beat SM easily...it's not meant to be a challenge for them.

 

Completely disagree. SM should provide at least 1 or 2 difficult bosses that requires groups to strategize and push the limits. That's what underlurker does as well as sword squadron.

[FireFoxed]

It still actually shocks me that more people complain about underlurker rather than sword squad. I feel like that's the much harder fight anyway. But it's all good.

 

Simple Sword Squadron is a tank and healer check, Underlurker is a dps check. Mechanically Sword Squadron is harder for a tank than Underlurker is for a dps, but while you can't carry a bad tank though ops, other than Underlurker it's very possible to carry a bad dps. That's the only reason there are so many calls to nerf Underlurker, people who are carried through the other fights can't be carried through this one the same way.

Edited April 7, 2015 by FireFoxed

[Orizuru]

 

Completely disagree. SM should provide at least 1 or 2 difficult bosses that requires groups to strategize and push the limits. That's what underlurker does as well as sword squadron.

 

I don't have a problem with SM requiring some coordination and strategy.

 

However, what Underlurker promotes is not strategy and coordination. It's class stacking. Powertech tanks to nullify cross mechanics, and all ranged dps to manage adds more easily. This isn't strategy and coordination to allow groups to overcome an obstacle.

[MisterBlackJack]

I don't have a problem with SM requiring some coordination and strategy.

 

However, what Underlurker promotes is not strategy and coordination. It's class stacking. Powertech tanks to nullify cross mechanics, and all ranged dps to manage adds more easily. This isn't strategy and coordination to allow groups to overcome an obstacle.

 

It can still be done with melee, just requires more focus. I was Just in a pug group that one shot it with 3 melee, me being one of them (Ruffian Scoundrel FTW btw)

[Pietrastor]

You arent supposed to beat it in fresh 178 gear in a tank and spank fight.

You're saying it AS IF vendor 186 was going to be sufficient to beat it lol

 

Did you call out for a nerf on Corruptor Zero aswell? Because its the same thing there.

No because it didn't require it. It was tougher boss at start and 16m was bugged, most fresh 8mans were progressing through it. Let alone 4 months after launch. Doesn't compare to Lurker nonsense. Edited April 8, 2015 by Pietrastor

[dbears]

Just some math on the fight..

 

Underlurker: 2,600,000 health.

Lurkerling: 100,000 x 3 = 300,000 health.

5 sets of adds: 300,000 x 5 = 1,500,000 health.

 

Total: 4,100,000 health.

 

4,100,000 ÷ 5 DPS = 820,000 damage per DPS

820,000 ÷ 290 seconds (enrage) = 2827 DPS.

 

Assuming you ignore the 6th set of Lurkerlings and burn the boss, as people should be doing.

 

Any respectable tank can do 1000 DPS on this fight (low balled big time) so subtract roughly 200 DPS from each of the 5 DPS and you're at about 2627 DPS if you're running 5 DPS in your group.

 

Math not shown.. but even if you're running the standard 2 tanks, 4 DPS and 2 healers, the DPS are still only required to do 3000 DPS (assuming both tanks do a measly 1000 DPS each.)

 

Also, you can continue the fight after the boss enrages. IIRC, he enrages during his Collapse ability. So you can continue DPSing the boss for the 9 second Collapse channel, hide behind a rock for Rage Storm, then get a good ~10 seconds of DPS time on the boss before the cross activates (which can still be survived I might add). Even if your 5 DPS are ONLY doing 2000 DPS, that's 10,000 DPS x 9 seconds (for Collapse) = 90,000 damage plus 10,000 DPS x ~10 seconds (for the cross) = 100,000 damage = 190,000 damage after enrage before taking any significant amount of damage. Add in the measly 1000 DPS your tank is doing, you're at 209,000 damage, which is 8% of the bosses health.

 

Now I'm sorry, but if you can't do 2627 DPS on this fight (less so if you're pushing enrage as I mentioned above), one of two things needs to happen.. Bioware needs to make a whole new Operation difficulty, possibly one that involves the "Jesus Droid" (solo FP droid) -OR- the more reasonable option:

 

Learn your class..

 

Seriously. Go through your discipline. Read what everything does. Practice your rotation. Read your abilities. Look at your passives. Learn what they do.

 

I understand people want to clear content. I also understand IT IS IN FACT STORYMODE after all.. But how dumbed down does it need to get? If they nerf the content to that level, the people who can't do Hardmode content and are satisfied with the current Storymode difficulty will no longer have a challenge and get bored.

 

People who aren't able to full clear both Storymode operations should strive to get better. They shouldn't be asking for nerfs to make already easy content easier.

Edited April 9, 2015 by dbears

[Pietrastor]

But how dumbed down does it need to get?

To the same other bosses are, why are you asking rethoric question?

[dbears]

To the same other bosses are, why are you asking rethoric question?

 

That's what you take away from my comment huh? Way to ignore the numbers and the facts and try to divert the conversation elsewhere lol.

 

It's not a rhetorical question. If you can't do 2700 DPS on this fight, how low do you want the requirement to go? 2500? 2000? How about enough DPS where all you have to do is spam your free shot lol.

[Pietrastor]

That's what you take away from my comment huh? Way to ignore the numbers and the facts and try to divert the conversation elsewhere lol.

Like where? If the same, in your opinion, useless players who can't do anything but spam their basic attacks were able to progress through 4 old 55 operations with some easier, some harder bosses and are capable of doing all new 60 bosses sans this one then obviously something ain't quite right and its not their skills. It doesn't matter how any numbers you post and how many times you tell everyone to l2p and that they suck. If a boss is overtuned like this compared to all other bosses in same tier, the end result will be - guess what! - abandoned content. Remember EC? You do realize Bioware already admit only a fraction of players do TOS?

[dbears]

Like where? If the same, in your opinion, useless players who can't do anything but spam their basic attacks were able to progress through 4 old 55 operations with some easier, some harder bosses and are capable of doing all new 60 bosses sans this one then obviously something ain't quite right and its not their skills. It doesn't matter how any numbers you post and how many times you tell everyone to l2p and that they suck. If a boss is overtuned like this compared to all other bosses in same tier, the end result will be - guess what! - abandoned content. Remember EC? You do realize Bioware already admit only a fraction of players do TOS?

 

Like where? Like ignoring the fact that the fight isn't very demanding to begin with.

 

Okay sure, you can clear the other 9 bosses because they're even easier. So let's nerf the only (apparently) difficult one in to the ground so we can start facerolling all 10.

 

No thanks.

 

Strive to get better. Don't ask for nerfs.

 

Your comment about EC shows me that you prefer faceroll content. IMO, EC may very well be my most favourite operation because of the difficulty. Which is why you probably didn't like it and/or asked for nerfs to it as well.

 

P.S. you must've hated HM Lost Island as well huh?

[FerkWork]

Speaking of EC still need my tank mount.

[Pietrastor]

Like where? Like ignoring the fact that the fight isn't very demanding to begin with.

 

Okay sure, you can clear the other 9 bosses because they're even easier. So let's nerf the only (apparently) difficult one in to the ground so we can start facerolling all 10.

 

No thanks.

 

Strive to get better. Don't ask for nerfs.

 

Your comment about EC shows me that you prefer faceroll content. IMO, EC may very well be my most favourite operation because of the difficulty. Which is why you probably didn't like it and/or asked for nerfs to it as well.

 

P.S. you must've hated HM Lost Island as well huh?

I prefer this game to have a healthy population. You think the fact that only a fraction of players does TOS is helping the game and keeping more players engaged? The opposite. HM/NiM players don't keep it alive, they never did. "The mass" does. I'm not a NiM player, but I'm skilled enough to do well in HM operations and hardest FPs. So what? I end up avoiding pugs like LI, EC or Lurker because I don't wanna wipe over and over. And when I'm playing with the few same guildies and clearing such content easily with them it doesn't help the overall level of skill or knowledge in the general playerbase. Unpuggable content like this essentially removes it from the content pool for larger playerbase. As confirmed by Bioware. Less content = less players. Like challenge? Go to HMs/NiMs and scream at Bioware to make them harder and harder. The 'entry level' has to remain puggable because that's what majority plays and it's the majority that sustains the game. This is a budget-balloned MMO, not Kickstarted Pillars of Eternity that can allow itself to carter to a niche audience. Perhaps unpleasant but obvious reality.

 

Lastly, I find it funny how you use "faceroll" as an attempt at an insult. Everyone likes to face-roll, at least from time to time, even HM/NiM players

[Ghisallo]

I did 3500 dps in combat spec and we still hit enrage at 15% with 5 dps and wiped.

 

If you were doing 3500 dps then the other dps must have been doing poorly. Doing 2500 or so is not difficult...that is roughly the dps target per dps on that fight. So you had a single dpser eating a sandwich or the other dps simply need help.

 

Tbh I do think the fight is a little tight but that isn't the issue I think it points out. This illustrates to me why I think not having a global combat log for parsers is a bad thing. Now I know there are douchebags out there that would use it as a tool to troll but I apply my RL social skills in MMO. If someone is a troll or bully I ignore them and add them to my ignore list.

 

If I see some doing bad dps or hps I ask them is everything is okay? Do they want some help? Make a suggestion or two. To spare people's feeling maybe I say to the RL "hey Bob is having dps issues, want to see if he has a heal spec and whether he would mind giving that a try?" If they aren't swapping targets, without naming names I say politely "okay everyone, remember there is a hard enrage here so we ALL need to be quick with target switching", stuff like that.

 

Without that tool though we get what we see here. One player doing 1000 dps more than they need to and the encounter still fails and there is no way to know why it failed. You don't know if your PuG failed because one person was screwing off because "its just a PuG" or if maybe on the last burn phase people were too focused on adds. Maybe someone wasn't burning adds at all so swapping over to the boss took to long?

 

Even "casual" (god I hate that term and "hardcore" btw... To me they are near meaningless.) Payers can benefit from from looking at a parse, maybe more so because if you are PuGing a lot you don't know how the other people play.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Ghisallo

[JattaGin]

The only time I wiped in PUG on ToS was because of two reasons:

1. At least one tank didn't know what to do or was endurance stucker and received too much dmg.

2. DPS players didn't know what to do or they were not augmented and had accuracy at 95%-97%.

 

New SM operations should not be dumbed down to let such players succeed. They don't bother to put any effort into their characters, so let them play old ops and that's it.

 

On the contrary. It should be dumbed down exactly because of this. Because it is STORY MODE! It is about the story. Every player should be allowed (and able) to see 100% of the stories in this game. Stop being such an elitist. This is a game. Something you play to have fun.

 

If you need a challenge, go HARD MODE or NIGHTMARE MODE.

 

That is exactly why the distinction is there. Denying a vast majority of players the story of this mission is bad game design. Nothing else.

[Ghisallo]

On the contrary. It should be dumbed down exactly because of this. Because it is STORY MODE! It is about the story. Every player should be allowed (and able) to see 100% of the stories in this game. Stop being such an elitist. This is a game. Something you play to have fun.

 

If you need a challenge, go HARD MODE or NIGHTMARE MODE.

 

That is exactly why the distinction is there. Denying a vast majority of players the story of this mission is bad game design. Nothing else.

 

I think you miss the point he is trying to make because he used certain terms that could be seen as inflammatory.

 

SM or not an OP should be a progression from the last FP. So HM FP>SM OP>HM OP>Him

 

With that, while saying "must be completely auged" might be a little extreme expecting more than 100% hit is NOT. If you do what you should... Do the HM FPS and dailies, buy gear and get drops having 100% hit is stupid easy, 110%+ (or near enough) taking very little effort. There is a reason why they have "suggested" average gear ratings for the various content types.

 

To say "that's unreasonable because it is SM" not only ignores specifically what Bioware suggests for your guidance but the simple system of progressing from one level of content to another.

 

Note: this is NOT to say that Underlurker couldn't do with a smidge of a HP reduction.

 

It is only to say that if you have not adequately geared up to the very modest recommendation for a SM you should not be surprised if you flop. A raid/OP storymode or no, has its place in progression. You don't say "DING I am 60... Time to do OPs". You say " Ding I am 60. Time to do some FPs until I have the gear to do OPs.". Then if you like SM and want to do HM you do SM until you have the gear and so on. SM raids are only a challenge if you try to get around this dynamic and do them under geared (with the possible exception of under lurker.)

 

Your last line...essentially defining SM is of course your opinion BUT the history of SMs in general in this game begs to differ

Edited April 9, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Snean]

Please don't speak about EC.

Some pug still can't kill droid on 1st phase of kephless.

I know why they can't ... told it to them but they still not doing fking interapt ....

[FerkWork]

Please don't speak about EC.

Some pug still can't kill droid on 1st phase of kephless.

I know why they can't ... told it to them but they still not doing fking interapt ....

 

I always bring my Mara for this just like Draxus non NiM. Force charge then interrupt is the bomb

[TUXs]

I understand people want to clear content. I also understand IT IS IN FACT STORYMODE after all.. But how dumbed down does it need to get?

 

Reduce add health by 25%, reduce their damage by 10%. That's how "dumbed down" I want to see it.

 

It's great that you're an awesome player, but I'm guessing you either lack social skills or social experience, because anyone who's PuGd this fight enough, knows it's too difficult for some players at its current level.

[TUXs]

I prefer this game to have a healthy population. You think the fact that only a fraction of players does TOS is helping the game and keeping more players engaged? The opposite. HM/NiM players don't keep it alive, they never did. "The mass" does. I'm not a NiM player, but I'm skilled enough to do well in HM operations and hardest FPs. So what? I end up avoiding pugs like LI, EC or Lurker because I don't wanna wipe over and over. And when I'm playing with the few same guildies and clearing such content easily with them it doesn't help the overall level of skill or knowledge in the general playerbase. Unpuggable content like this essentially removes it from the content pool for larger playerbase. As confirmed by Bioware. Less content = less players. Like challenge? Go to HMs/NiMs and scream at Bioware to make them harder and harder. The 'entry level' has to remain puggable because that's what majority plays and it's the majority that sustains the game. This is a budget-balloned MMO, not Kickstarted Pillars of Eternity that can allow itself to carter to a niche audience. Perhaps unpleasant but obvious reality.

 

Lastly, I find it funny how you use "faceroll" as an attempt at an insult. Everyone likes to face-roll, at least from time to time, even HM/NiM players

Q F E!!! Very well said!!!

[SnoowMeow]

I don't have a problem with SM requiring some coordination and strategy.

 

However, what Underlurker promotes is not strategy and coordination. It's class stacking. Powertech tanks to nullify cross mechanics, and all ranged dps to manage adds more easily. This isn't strategy and coordination to allow groups to overcome an obstacle.

^^ This.

The lengthy debate about how hard story mode should be, and how tough hard mode should be, etc., is riveting as always. However, there's no escape from the fact that the Underlurker encounter is an example of shockingly bad level design. Even at the max 4m range, melee dps take extra damage from the jumpers and can't continue the *required* dps from behind rocks during rage storm. Any group without a powertech/vanguard tank is in for a vastly more difficult encounter.

I don't mind wiping because my group sux at the cross / rage storm mechanics, just as we wiped a lot on Sword Squad and Bulo before we figured out how to coordinate. But don't tell me I must play a certain class. My group is 3/10 on HM Ravagers/ToS now, and I refuse to do Underlurker on any difficulty.

[DarthZaul]

Someone just said that standing between the boss and the middle of the cross where the DPS icons are makes the cross do more damage to the boss than it does if people stand between the middle and far end of the cross arms. Is that true and is it a mechanic or a bug? I thought standing closer to the boss on the cross was just for melee damage and easier healing?