So I just PuGed a ToS....

[Quraswren]

Of course, because the thing that the uber elites forget is that this is a commercial software product that really has only one reason to exist. Extract money from as many customers as possible, for as long as possible.

 

That is why it exists.

 

Telling your customers that they have to "optimize" their toons and raise their skill levels or not play, will just cause many of them to not play.

 

That is bad business.

 

While true, I think most companies like BW want to make a good games that most gamers will like.

 

Problem is, like what is happening now, they lost that vision along the way be is because of hte cartel shop or just general mishaps in design and development. BW will have to learn from that mistake. If it takes sub loss then so be it. A few can be out of a job while someone else figures it out because I'm a firm believer in what I learned (and apparently blizzard) is that gamers do not rise the the occasion in any large number and designing content with that in mind is a good thing. BW made some good ops, to bad so many will not care to see it till it gets adjusted to a more applicable difficulty setting.

 

You can't get rid of all challenges but a better "ramp-up" is needed vs what BW is pushing out.

[Tsillah]

There are of course people who want to see more challenge and there are people who feel sm should be easier. Regardless of where you stand though, I doubt anyone can deny that the Underlurker is of comparable difficulty to the rest of the ops.

 

What irks me most is that the Revan fight at the end is a complete laugh in comparison. It makes sense that the last fight is a hard one. Progession through ops would make you expect that the bosses get progessively harder as you go through an ops. Just my logic I guess.

 

Still I cannot help but remember that the last boss in any ops was always a bit more challenging. So why boss 3 in tos is the hardest boss of the ops and then the last two bosses with the best loot drops are a total easy mode again is really just taking the piss if you ask me.

 

On my server (Red Eclipse) it's become fairly common to see people get a character through the underlurker with only the last two bosses left and then start groups for just the last 2 bosses. He starts the group, lets others in the ops skipping the first 3 bosses, gives lead away and gets an alt himself and repeat a few times so multiple alts can go through this and more pugs can do the last two bosses. I think it's nice they do this but really, it makes no sense that it ends up this way now does it?

 

I am lucky that I am with a group of players in my guild who are able to do tos on farm for a little while now and we have no issues with underlurker anymore. In the end I also don't feel that it's too hard of a fight for us....however, clearly lots of people are not managing sm. That just seems odd for something called story mode.

 

My guess is that because endgame is limited to just 2 ops, it's just BW stunting people's progression on purpose, keeping them busy long enough till new content comes out or time simply passes. Look at it. Boss 2 was a stumbling block and they nerfed it a bit after some time. Not too quickly though. So now more people can beat boss 2 (still a challenge for many a pug but it's better for more people) and now they are stuck on boss 3. In 16 man ravagers Bulo was a stumbling block. Also made a bit easier and then boss 3 was a blocker. Then made easier.

 

So 16 man groups aren't working in gf. Of course not. People wanted it because 16 man was populare in the DF/DP time. Clearly that time has passed and their new approach to the current ops ruined ops via the GF. So now we will get 8 man ops again in the GF with 3.2

 

So perhaps a bit cynical but it seems that the difficulty grades on boss 2 and 3 in both ops have just been used to artificially block progress of most players to make the two ops "feel" like more content. I suspect that underlurker will be made more forgiving in the next few months, but the cynic in me says this was all planned this way.

 

I do have to say I am happy that there is more difficulty in ops and not everything is as easy as it was before, but I think the way of doing it is just born out of a lack of endgame content we currenly have in the progression raiding. I am fine with HM being HM. I am fine with some bosses in SM being more challenging, but the Underlurker is evidently too much in its current set up.

 

So my suggestion would be to make Underlurker a bit easier by toning down the damage from the adds just a little and extend the enrage timer by 10-15 seconds....but at the same time I think that the last 2 fights can be a bit less easy than they are now because not only is underlurker a bit much, the last two bosses are rather underwhelming.

[Heat-Wave]

I'm a firm believer in what I learned (and apparently blizzard) is that gamers do not rise the the occasion in any large number and designing content with that in mind is a good thing.

 

Why should they?

 

Why should people paying money to be entertained in their free time have to "rise to the occasion"?

 

This is NOT A JOB, it is entertainment.

 

Do I have to "work for it" to watch a movie? Read a book? Listen to music?

 

Why do so many people think I should have to "work for it" to play a game?

 

Yes, I get that if it is TOO easy, it can become "boring", then people might stop playing for that reason. It is a fine line to walk, which is why many single player games provide a difficulty level.

 

Call of Duty is a good example. On the easiest level, it is really hard to die, you can derp through it without trying very hard and win. On the hardest level, it really requires skill.

 

So it caters to everyone.

 

SM, HM, and NiM should do the same, SM for everyone who just wants to sit back and relax. HM for those who want a bit more challenge and sense of accomplishment, and NiM for the uber elites who want a second job.

[PavSalco]

This is NOT A JOB, it is entertainment.

 

Do I have to "work for it" to watch a movie? Read a book? Listen to music?

 

Why do so many people think I should have to "work for it" to play a game?

 

Because these are different types of entertainment and you expect a game to be a movie when it is not because it's an MMO RPG.

 

In any game you're supposed to take an active role and be engaged in what you are doing, not to sit and watch passively. That's the main principle of games that defines them. You want to sit and watch? Have you played movie/game hybrids such as Heavy Rain or Beyond Two Souls? It should cater to your taste more rather than an MMO where a player is actually supposed to work on his character and skill to go through content.

 

SM, HM, and NiM should do the same, SM for everyone who just wants to sit back and relax. HM for those who want a bit more challenge and sense of accomplishment, and NiM for the uber elites who want a second job.

 

Since you tend to call people elites in the blink of an eye...

How about no operations at all for special casual snowflakes that just want to sit back and relax

 

I would change it to:

SM for those who want a bit more challenge in comparison to flashpoints. HM for guild players that want some sense of accomplishment and NiM for the uber elites who are great at the game.

 

Btw, Dread Council in SM pre 3.0 was still rarely done by PUGs. Commander Draxus in DF was also painful. People used to ignore Corruptors instead of interrupting them. Well, they still ignore their channels from time to time, but now we have higher levels and more HP, so it doesn't hurt much...

 

My point is that ToS became a well tuned operation that has only two demanding encounters and it is not that much different situation in comparison to the past. We already had SM operations that were demanding for pugs, demanding in the sense those ops couldn't be facerolled.

 

ToS encounters:

Massassi: faceroll

Walkers: slightly demanding but fine, and more people will do them as more people become overgeared with the changes to comms in 3.2.

Underlurker is a bit too much for PUG I agree, but this can be easily fixed with decreasing adds' HP and damage.

Commanders: easy

Revan: easy

Edited April 6, 2015 by PavSalco

[FerkWork]

TBH, I'm fine with any change to SM. Just don't touch HM. It's called Hard mode for a reason and I'm enjoying the difficulty right now in HM. Ouch magnetic clamps lol.

[Kalfear]

W

 

This is NOT A JOB, it is entertainment.

 

Do I have to "work for it" to watch a movie? Read a book? Listen to music?

 

 

Depends on the movie

 

Ive CERTAINLY had to WORK at sitting through certain movies over the years.

 

Better question is

 

Why do YOU get to dictate the standard and difficulty?

You want it dumbed down and stupid

I pay my subscription fee as well and I DO NOT want it dumbed down and stupid

 

Why should your dumbed down version take precidence over my desire for a NORMAL difficulty setting at Storymode (not hardmode, not NiM, jjust standard normal setting, which ops for most part currently are set at).

 

Maybe they need to make a new mode called "SUPER MINDLESS EASY MODE" so EVERYONE could do it with no challenge at all.

 

Underlurker a pain and need some tweeking but over all, Ops on storymode are simply set at NORMAL difficulty setting or slightly below. AS THEY SHOULD BE.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Kalfear

[DarthZaul]

I killed Lurker in 3 attempts with my Rep guild I don't play with much yesterday so I started to think maybe its not actually that hard after all and there are L2P issues. But then I saw them kill Lurker HM with mostly the same group and realized those were their best players I was with.

Meanwhile my Imp guild have wiped on it over 30 times across 3 nights this week. (I counted them in starparse)

 

It really does need nerfing.

Edited April 7, 2015 by DarthZaul

[TheSeventhJedi]

But that isn't the problem with ToS. Even following mechanics it is completely unforgiving.

 

ToS isn't "slightly challenging", it is brutal to the point of "never mind, not gonna bother".

 

So you're uber elite, good for you, you don't represent the bulk of the player base.

 

Considering my ops group can roflstomp ToS in about 40 minutes, all of these comments are making me feel like I'm really good. Please, keep them coming. I'm not used to being called uber elite.

[Pietrastor]

The only time I wiped in PUG on ToS was because of two reasons:

1. At least one tank didn't know what to do or was endurance stucker and received too much dmg.

2. DPS players didn't know what to do or they were not augmented and had accuracy at 95%-97%.

 

New SM operations should not be dumbed down to let such players succeed. They don't bother to put any effort into their characters, so let them play old ops and that's it.

All of this would be perfectly understandble. If it wasn't for the fact that we're talking STORY mode lol. Do you understand that? Or do you think it is acceptable to make a story mode boss that demands high-end augmented gear on top of perfection in mechanics execution and increasing number of dps in groups above the norm? Again, story mode Pav. Hard mode exists and for a reason and is separate from Story mode for a reason (as well as NiM mode) Edited April 7, 2015 by Pietrastor

[Znozzy]

All of this would be perfectly understandble. If it wasn't for the fact that we're talking STORY mode lol. Do you understand that? Or do you think it is acceptable to make a story mode boss that demands high-end augmented gear on top of perfection in mechanics execution and increasing number of dps in groups above the norm? Again, story mode Pav. Hard mode exists and for a reason and is separate from Story mode for a reason (as well as NiM mode)

 

Underlurker does not require top end gear. It requires people to actually make use of small tactics. ToS is supposed to be a endgame raid. You arent supposed to beat it in fresh 178 gear in a tank and spank fight. Getting in position for the cross phase isnt hard if you put your mind to it, neither is calling out a rock to hide behind.

 

The problem today with players is that they arent willing to work for progress in endgame content, they expect the bosses to be ticklish and give them gear straight away. The mechanics are fresh and nice. Did you call out for a nerf on Corruptor Zero aswell? Because its the same thing there.

 

Sincerely, someone who has done multiple PuG runs at SM ToS and won most of them.

[FerkWork]

Considering my ops group can roflstomp ToS in about 40 minutes, all of these comments are making me feel like I'm really good. Please, keep them coming. I'm not used to being called uber elite.

 

Yeah, Now all we need is a I ROFLSTOMPED the Underlurker Teeshirt

Edited April 7, 2015 by FerkWork

[GopherLuV]

Yeah, Now all we need is a I ROFLSTOMPED the Underlurker Teeshirt

 

I would totally buy that **** but I want a big picture of him laying face down on the ground... I'de pay 20 bucks for that for sure.. *cough - BW make me a t-shirt - cough*

[Toweleeeie]

I made the post while raging. The healers quit after hitting enrage 4 times and I told them my numbers. Our 1st attempt was with 4 dps hit enrage at 25%, the next 3 a tank switch to a dps set. 10% enrage was the best attempt. I can't blame the heals for leaving.

 

After reading all the comments:

You do have to learn to read before you can read a book. Don't have to learn how to watch a movie.

 

I honestly have no idea how the dps could have been so low. I want to think that they leveled their characters and learned how to play them, but clearly that's not the case.

 

For PuGing sake: Increase enrage timer by 30 seconds, would be my vote.

[Halinalle]

I honestly have no idea how the dps could have been so low. I want to think that they leveled their characters and learned how to play them, but clearly that's not the case.

 

Exactly why I don't bother with ops. I have Marauder with 100,27% or something accuracy and really bad Surge and I do around 1600 dps (a lot of numbers around 900-2100), Sniper and Gunslinger with 99,57% accuracy and do around 2500 dps (I see a lot of numbers around 2000-3500). Funny thing is I usually end up tanking if there's no actual tank in the group.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Halinalle

[Toweleeeie]

Exactly why I don't bother with ops. I have Marauder with 100,27% or something accuracy and really bad Surge and I do around 1600 dps (a lot of numbers around 900-2100), Sniper and Gunslinger with 99,57% accuracy and do around 2500 dps (I see a lot of numbers around 2000-3500). Funny thing is I usually end up tanking if there's no actual tank in the group.

 

1600? I'm not trying to be mean here, but you are only using like 3 abilities and your stat distribution must be bad. You can't trust the comms gear to be good. It is awefull Ult comms are for offhand only. I think this is a big reason why casual suffer in this game. They see a higher number on the gear and think it's better. When a lot of the time it's not.

 

100% accuracy is a must. I do this with all accuracy power enhancements. I use all power mods. Earpiece and implants are power surge.

 

Augments, I use full alacrity. That's personal preference. Most use mainstat or power.

 

Mods and enhancements should not end with a letter for example: you want a 37 not a 37A. The 37A will have high endurance instead of a high secondary stat like power.

 

Go to dulfy.net and learn the opening rotation. You will be well on your way to doing 3k dps.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Toweleeeie

[Halinalle]

1600? I'm not trying to be mean here, but you are only using like 3 abilities and your stat distribution must be bad.

 

100% accuracy is a must. I do this with all accuracy power enhancements. I use all power mods. Earpiece and implants are power surge.

 

100% = Accuracy in Earpiece, Implants, MH, 5 Enhancements in armor.

Result: no space for Surge. I only have surge in implants, earpiece and offhand (192, don't want to replace with lettered 186s)

[FerkWork]

Exactly why I don't bother with ops. I have Marauder with 100,27% or something accuracy and really bad Surge and I do around 1600 dps (a lot of numbers around 900-2100), Sniper and Gunslinger with 99,57% accuracy and do around 2500 dps (I see a lot of numbers around 2000-3500). Funny thing is I usually end up tanking if there's no actual tank in the group.

 

Which spec of Maruader? If Annihilation,

I should teach you the power of the Alacrity infused (800 alacrity) Mara (Annihilation).

 

Also surge at 300-400 is fine.

 

But yeah accuracy up

 

Also what are your practicing on? Which target dummy?

Edited April 7, 2015 by FerkWork

[Halinalle]

Also what are your practicing on? Which target dummy?

 

Those numbers are from actual boss fights. I don't trust Parses or "dummy dps".

[FerkWork]

Those numbers are from actual boss fights. I don't trust Parses or "dummy dps".

 

Ah, parses can show and average of what your best can do so I wouldn't total discounts them, but I agree with the sentiment. In boss fight its all about never wasting a GCD. Even if it's a filler attack better to use it.

[Toweleeeie]

Those numbers are from actual boss fights. I don't trust Parses or "dummy dps".

 

Very true. Most fights are a staying out "stupid" check then anything else. Dummies don't test that.

[Snean]

Exactly why I don't bother with ops. I have Marauder with 100,27% or something accuracy and really bad Surge and I do around 1600 dps (a lot of numbers around 900-2100)

Just lol.

Oper healer with no acu (9 ala enh) 192 gear use only auto-hit do 1300 dps on dummy. How did u do only 1600 dps? My sorc do 4100-4600 on underlurker (and this is good but far far from perfect)

[Halinalle]

Before maintenance I asked if I can queue for Ravagers. Everyone told me "you can but it's not going to pop" (achievement thing?). Then I asked if 48k hp is enough for EV and people told me I need at least 50k.

 

Now I have 186 augments for most stuff. Need to upgrade two 178s and put 2 Alacrity augments in. But I think that's not going to be enough even though I have just over 100% accuracy now.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Halinalle

[TUXs]

Just lol.

Oper healer with no acu (9 ala enh) 192 gear use only auto-hit do 1300 dps on dummy. How did u do only 1600 dps? My sorc do 4100-4600 on underlurker (and this is good but far far from perfect)

LOL all ya like, there are more players like him. This is entertainment for people, not homework. At least he had the courage to post his numbers.

[Haystak]

And you were 1 DPS. what were the other 4 DPS doing?

 

Hint: It wasn't anywhere close to 2500, if you were doing 3500 and still enraged at 15%. 2500 in the current gear sets is easy to pull, on my Jugg in DPS spec I can regularly pull 2900+, and he's in unoptimized comms gear, mostly 186 with a couple pieces of 192, and I'm still learning that rotation.

 

My guild must be more hardcore than I thought. I felt bad forever on my sage because he wasnt breaking 3k in the starter gear.

[DOHboy]

LOL all ya like, there are more players like him. This is entertainment for people, not homework. At least he had the courage to post his numbers.

 

he did say those were not from a dummy parse and where actual numbers from boss fights where there may be substantial movement/down time lowering DPS.