Do something with SM Underlurker already, TOS has been wasting for nearly 4 months

[Shwarzchild]

The sacrifices are made in Hard Mode. Story Mode should be faceroll easy for Hard Mode raiders, it should be challenging but not impossible for the average shmuck who just isn't prepared as a gamer to go after Hard Mode content for some reason. It's Story Mode. That means it allows the general player base to enjoy and complete it to further the game's story.

 

Story Mode operations are beginning ops. They are there to gear people for the next level and the gear they get from the SM ops should allow them to more easily clear the SM op but should NOT be required to clear said op...especially when the description of the SM op says 186 gear is needed. It doesn't say "186 gear will get you through the first two bosses but won't let you clear the third one, you need 192 gear from Ravagers and the first two bosses of this operation before you stand a chance in Hell of getting past it unless you are an elite raider that clears HM operations in basic gear."

 

Story Mode operations should never require perfection in mechanics or rotation, nor should they require set piece gear. Story Mode ops aren't for challenging geared, HM ops players. They are for the masses comprised of less than elite players to have at least some end game content that isn't solo dailies and various flashpoints. The only time HM raiders should even set foot in SM ops is to get set piece gear and once they and their teams are geared it should be "bye bye SM".

 

You gotta give the less than perfect players something to do at end game, for the health of the game.

 

And people need to stop saying SM DF/DP was harder. It wasn't. Especially considering none of the mechanics involved RNG or could be easily failed because the game engine couldn't handle it.

 

I'm not saying sacrifice everything. What I am saying is that people in your camp need to also make a sacrifice if us hard mode raiders are going to make a sacrifice in terms of difficulty. You have to be able to do a little bit more in terms of communication and mechanics whether it's by chat or voice. What it sounds like to me though is that you aren't willing to meet anyone half way, and that story modes should just be totally only for people who don't want to do Hard modes. I don't agree. I think there's a way to make story modes balanced for raiders who want to progress to hard mode, and for casual raiders that have no interest in hard modes. It can be done, but we have to find that middle ground. Your ground isn't the middle. Not even close.

[Grayseven]

I'm not saying sacrifice everything. What I am saying is that people in your camp need to also make a sacrifice if us hard mode raiders are going to make a sacrifice in terms of difficulty. You have to be able to do a little bit more in terms of communication and mechanics whether it's by chat or voice. What it sounds like to me though is that you aren't willing to meet anyone half way, and that story modes should just be totally only for people who don't want to do Hard modes. I don't agree. I think there's a way to make story modes balanced for raiders who want to progress to hard mode, and for casual raiders that have no interest in hard modes. It can be done, but we have to find that middle ground. Your ground isn't the middle. Not even close.

 

My camp? You're missing the point. I heal on a progression team but I also run with guild mates who aren't progression raiders. My camp is simply common sense that dictates that when you have multiple tiers of difficulty, the lowest tier is for the masses and your highest is for the elite.

 

What you are saying is that the lowest tier should still be challenging for people who also run the higher tiers and you simply can not do that without removing any possibility of the general player base being unable to participate in end game play.

 

The "middle ground" is Hard Mode. Hard Mode is where better players go to be challenged. Nightmare Mode is there for the truly masochistic to see if everyone in their raid group can be "perfect".

 

The average player has already sacrificed by dint of the fact they will probably never successfully complete HM content while it is relevant. They will have to wait for the next expansion to get a few more levels and/or much better gear than can be had by completing current HM content while it is relevant.

 

Story Mode should not exist to challenge better players. It should only exist, and be tuned for, average players in crafted 186 gear. Fights like Underlurker can still have the mechanics, but there needs to be more wiggle room for the Story Mode version...like a much longer enrage timer, reduced damage output from adds and mechanic failures and reduced add health for example.

 

Hard Mode raiders have Hard Modes to be challenged by, they don't need to have Story Mode to be challenged by as well.

[Fleurdelis]

my camp? You're missing the point. I heal on a progression team but i also run with guild mates who aren't progression raiders. My camp is simply common sense that dictates that when you have multiple tiers of difficulty, the lowest tier is for the masses and your highest is for the elite.

 

What you are saying is that the lowest tier should still be challenging for people who also run the higher tiers and you simply can not do that without removing any possibility of the general player base being unable to participate in end game play.

 

The "middle ground" is hard mode. Hard mode is where better players go to be challenged. Nightmare mode is there for the truly masochistic to see if everyone in their raid group can be "perfect".

 

The average player has already sacrificed by dint of the fact they will probably never successfully complete hm content while it is relevant. They will have to wait for the next expansion to get a few more levels and/or much better gear than can be had by completing current hm content while it is relevant.

 

Story mode should not exist to challenge better players. It should only exist, and be tuned for, average players in crafted 186 gear. Fights like underlurker can still have the mechanics, but there needs to be more wiggle room for the story mode version...like a much longer enrage timer, reduced damage output from adds and mechanic failures and reduced add health for example.

 

Hard mode raiders have hard modes to be challenged by, they don't need to have story mode to be challenged by as well.

 

2 thumbs up!!

[Transcendent]

Story Mode should not exist to challenge better players. It should only exist, and be tuned for, average players in crafted 186 gear. Fights like Underlurker can still have the mechanics, but there needs to be more wiggle room for the Story Mode version...like a much longer enrage timer, reduced damage output from adds and mechanic failures and reduced add health for example.

 

Hard Mode raiders have Hard Modes to be challenged by, they don't need to have Story Mode to be challenged by as well.

 

This.

 

Also this is what happens when BioWare have a closed PTS for an expansion that includes new operations, operations that are over-tuned because HM / NiM raiders think something is too easy. I don't blame the raiders, they're probably not going to realise that what is easy for them is hard for the next guy (without a parser / voice chat and in depth knowledge of gearing and class).

 

BioWare however, should know better, because they have metrics to tell them this.

 

Why would they even deem it sensible to create fights with tight mechanics for players in 186 gear? Or were they trying to artificially extend the life of these operations by blocking participation for a larger part of their audience until they get geared up (including removing top tier commendations from a lot of content). That's the question that should probably be asked.

[Shwarzchild]

My camp? You're missing the point. I heal on a progression team but I also run with guild mates who aren't progression raiders. My camp is simply common sense that dictates that when you have multiple tiers of difficulty, the lowest tier is for the masses and your highest is for the elite.

 

What you are saying is that the lowest tier should still be challenging for people who also run the higher tiers and you simply can not do that without removing any possibility of the general player base being unable to participate in end game play.

 

The "middle ground" is Hard Mode. Hard Mode is where better players go to be challenged. Nightmare Mode is there for the truly masochistic to see if everyone in their raid group can be "perfect".

 

The average player has already sacrificed by dint of the fact they will probably never successfully complete HM content while it is relevant. They will have to wait for the next expansion to get a few more levels and/or much better gear than can be had by completing current HM content while it is relevant.

 

Story Mode should not exist to challenge better players. It should only exist, and be tuned for, average players in crafted 186 gear. Fights like Underlurker can still have the mechanics, but there needs to be more wiggle room for the Story Mode version...like a much longer enrage timer, reduced damage output from adds and mechanic failures and reduced add health for example.

 

Hard Mode raiders have Hard Modes to be challenged by, they don't need to have Story Mode to be challenged by as well.

 

I think we're kind of talking in circles. I'm completely for the fine tuning which to me includes a longer enrage timer, lower add hp pools. Let's step back for a second. Let's forget who is a hardmode raider, who isn't, and anything that classifies people into a raiding tier. I'm saying that as a general point, end game content should not be faceroll easy which to me means that you can simply ignore everything like in tacticals and just steam roll through. I'm also saying that at some point players need to take responsibility for their own behaviors. If they choose to walk blindly into an operation which is content that already states it will be harder then I don't think we can blame the content really.

 

In a secondary thing there should be a progression type feel for people who want to progress into different tiers of content. It's true that storymode should be easier and less challenging than hardmode and hardmode should be less challenging than nightmare mode. The balance I'm talking about is keeping mechanics that those progression people who need to learn involved as much as possible so that they get what they are after as well. To hit a 90mph fastball you don't typically start in the 90mph cage and go well I'll learn the hard way. You start in the 70, then move to the 80, then move to the 90. Some people are never going to consistently hit a 70 mph fastball. Should we then say well screw it they can't hit that so we're going to take out all 70s, move them to 50s and then say oh well you guys go learn the hard way if you want to hit anything higher? That's also alienating.

 

So in my long winded approach to talking, there can be and should be multiple purposes for storymode operations in general. They should be flexibile to allow casuals the ability to get through them (although I would say they shouldn't be clearing things basically every single run cause honestly that would be terrible...then they'd complain they have nothing to do and we'd be in a different category of worries.) But, they should also be flexibile enough so that people who want to progress into even higher tiers can do so. For example: hardmode malaphar I found tough. So our group would practice getting the red circles on the adds in storymode because the pace wasn't as fast. We could experience the mechanics enough so that when we stepped into hardmode again we were prepared to deal with the faster pace / higher damage output of that fight. Contrary to popular belief hardmodes are hard, and it would be stupid to just throw people into hardmodes because other players literally can't be bothered with doing anything for their own benefit. I mean honestly let's just think about something real fast. I have a level 53 dps in campaign gear. I can do around 1.5 dps in 148 gear. What dps we see a lot are in 186-192 gear pulling those same numbers. To me that's the 50mph fastball people trying to get rid of the 70mph cage because they are too lazy to try.

 

 

Of course this is too long, and im sure you didn't read it. I hope ya did. But I doubt my points mesh with yours. All in all, I'm advocating a balance. Tweaks like enrage timers, or lower hp pools, or reduced damage from adds I'm fine with. I've said before that a nerf is appropriate. What Im affraid of though is that we dumb things down so much so that we lose out on that balance.

[Djiini]

The sacrifices are made in Hard Mode.

 

So that's why it's called the Temple of Sacrifice!

[FerkWork]

So that's why it's called the Temple of Sacrifice!

 

Always think the Temple of Doom music should play in the Op

[Grayseven]

I think we're kind of talking in circles. I'm completely for the fine tuning which to me includes a longer enrage timer, lower add hp pools. Let's step back for a second. Let's forget who is a hardmode raider, who isn't, and anything that classifies people into a raiding tier. I'm saying that as a general point, end game content should not be faceroll easy which to me means that you can simply ignore everything like in tacticals and just steam roll through. I'm also saying that at some point players need to take responsibility for their own behaviors. If they choose to walk blindly into an operation which is content that already states it will be harder then I don't think we can blame the content really.

 

In a secondary thing there should be a progression type feel for people who want to progress into different tiers of content. It's true that storymode should be easier and less challenging than hardmode and hardmode should be less challenging than nightmare mode. The balance I'm talking about is keeping mechanics that those progression people who need to learn involved as much as possible so that they get what they are after as well. To hit a 90mph fastball you don't typically start in the 90mph cage and go well I'll learn the hard way. You start in the 70, then move to the 80, then move to the 90. Some people are never going to consistently hit a 70 mph fastball. Should we then say well screw it they can't hit that so we're going to take out all 70s, move them to 50s and then say oh well you guys go learn the hard way if you want to hit anything higher? That's also alienating.

 

So in my long winded approach to talking, there can be and should be multiple purposes for storymode operations in general. They should be flexibile to allow casuals the ability to get through them (although I would say they shouldn't be clearing things basically every single run cause honestly that would be terrible...then they'd complain they have nothing to do and we'd be in a different category of worries.) But, they should also be flexibile enough so that people who want to progress into even higher tiers can do so. For example: hardmode malaphar I found tough. So our group would practice getting the red circles on the adds in storymode because the pace wasn't as fast. We could experience the mechanics enough so that when we stepped into hardmode again we were prepared to deal with the faster pace / higher damage output of that fight. Contrary to popular belief hardmodes are hard, and it would be stupid to just throw people into hardmodes because other players literally can't be bothered with doing anything for their own benefit. I mean honestly let's just think about something real fast. I have a level 53 dps in campaign gear. I can do around 1.5 dps in 148 gear. What dps we see a lot are in 186-192 gear pulling those same numbers. To me that's the 50mph fastball people trying to get rid of the 70mph cage because they are too lazy to try.

 

 

Of course this is too long, and im sure you didn't read it. I hope ya did. But I doubt my points mesh with yours. All in all, I'm advocating a balance. Tweaks like enrage timers, or lower hp pools, or reduced damage from adds I'm fine with. I've said before that a nerf is appropriate. What Im affraid of though is that we dumb things down so much so that we lose out on that balance.

 

We seem to have a similar view with only a few minor differences. While a balance would be nice, it shouldn't be at the expense of the general player bases ability to enjoy some end game content. You appear to feel that if it gets too easy it won't serve a purpose for players moving on to HM and NiM content but if you look at the differences between the two that already exist, SM doesn't really prepare you for HM mechanics.

 

It's similar to what has happened with the removal of "normal mode" flashpoints. Tactical FP's don't prepare players for HM flashpoints because Tacticals are basically tuned for 4 DPS while HM FP's require you pay attention to the mechanics while using the standard Trinity composition.

 

Yes, with SM Malaphar you can practice the circles...but if you fail the circles on SM it has zero effect on your raid. Failing them in HM more than once will likely lead to an enrage wipe. But then you get things like HM Sparky. SM Sparky does nothing to prepare you for the HM mechanics. No permanent stacking debuffs from the adds, no Tank Swap tennis, no glowing circle on the boss...

 

Where we differ is the fact that I really don't care if Story Mode fights get nerfed to the point that they don't help prepare for the Hard Mode version. I don't care because of the simple fact that rarely do SM mechanics prepare you for the HM mechanics any way.

 

I'd rather the SM version of operations simply be doable by the majority of players. If that requires they be reduced in difficulty to the point that they no longer help HM players...well, I'm good with that.

[AlrikFassbauer]

You appear to feel that if it gets too easy it won't serve a purpose for players moving on to HM and NiM content but if you look at the differences between the two that already exist, SM doesn't really prepare you for HM mechanics.

 

It's similar to what has happened with the removal of "normal mode" flashpoints. Tactical FP's don't prepare players for HM flashpoints because Tacticals are basically tuned for 4 DPS while HM FP's require you pay attention to the mechanics while using the standard Trinity composition.

 

I agree to that. SM doesn't really prepare players to HM mechanics. It's an illusion most Progeression Raiders are quick to give in.

 

I have seen quite a lot of wipes of groups doing HM contend which would have been good in SM ontent. My favourite example is Denova HM, which me and other 2 people did without doing Denova before. We wiped I think 10 times at both tanks alone.

I think we were 8 players, even. Yes, I think 8. I would have remembered it if the number had been bigger.

 

Okay, our problem was that we Newbies never did Denova in SM before, but the leader, someone who did HM and NIM fairly often, was confident that we could make it. I think we used 3 or 4 hours for that OP; because we needed explanations, getting into the flow, learning the battle mechanics ... Kephess was an absolute horror. We were just not ready for THAT steep increase in difficulty in OPS.

 

I don't remember anymore my repair costs. I just don't want to. When I did it with my Sage - again 8 man HM - my repair costs were around 10.000 and we hadn't met Kephess yet.

 

Interestingly I never did Denova SM yet.

No-one seems to do it on my server.

Except guilds, maybe, and they don't advertise it in the Fleet's General Chat.

Edited March 28, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[GrandLordMenace]

I agree to that. SM doesn't really prepare players to HM mechanics. It's an illusion most Progeression Raiders are quick to give in.

 

I have seen quite a lot of wipes of groups doing HM contend which would have been good in SM ontent. My favourite example is Denova HM, which me and other 2 people did without doing Denova before. We wiped I think 10 times at both tanks alone.

I think we were 8 players, even. Yes, I think 8. I would have remembered it if the number had been bigger.

 

Okay, our problem was that we Newbies never did Denova in SM before, but the leader, someone who did HM and NIM fairly often, was confident that we could make it. I think we used 3 or 4 hours for that OP; because we needed explanations, getting into the flow, learning the battle mechanics ... Kephess was an absolute horror. We were just not ready for THAT steep increase in difficulty in OPS.

 

I don't remember anymore my repair costs. I just don't want to. When I did it with my Sage - again 8 man HM - my repair costs were around 10.000 and we hadn't met Kephess yet.

 

Interestingly I never did Denova SM yet.

No-one seems to do it on my server.

Except guilds, maybe, and they don't advertise it in the Fleet's General Chat.

Of course SM isn't a carbon copy of HM, but saying that SM does not prepare you in any way for HM on live is 100% false. In all the fights except for like the final 2 in each instance, the mechanics in HM exist in some more forgiving form in SM, albeit with modifiers to make them easier. If every boss was a tank and spank, the progression canyon between SM and HM would be gigantic.

 

SM should be designed to be challenging for the casual player, BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE and easily accomplished for the more skilled player. SM should not be free loot for the average player, there should be a sense of progression to a certain degree. I define the average raider as someone who is willing to listen but not talk in voice chat, parses roughly 3k in full yavin gear, possibly less, does read sites like dulfy but doesn't touch the forums with a ten foot pole.

 

The fact of the matter is that casuals DO NOT TOUCH the forums with a ten foot pole. Anyone claiming to be a casual that frequents the forums is generally a player that is highly below average, slightly above average, or extremely above average. Average players just play the game.

 

Also, I don't know what server you guys are on but on Ebon Hawk, pugs clear Underlurker regularly. The DPS requirements for all the fights are trivial, even underlurker (it only requires a DPS to pull 2.7 on boss), and there are occasional pugs that kill sparky and malaphar HM.

 

I HIGHLY recommend bioware maintain the current difficulty of the operations for the most part. Story Mode operations should be like the OG Story Mode Flashpoints at launch, moderately challenging, contain mechanics, and prep you for hard mode.

Edited March 29, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[Grayseven]

Of course SM isn't a carbon copy of HM, but saying that SM does not prepare you in any way for HM on live is 100% false. In all the fights except for like the final 2 in each instance, the mechanics in HM exist in some more forgiving form in SM, albeit with modifiers to make them easier. If every boss was a tank and spank, the progression canyon between SM and HM would be gigantic.

 

SM should be designed to be challenging for the casual player, BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE and easily accomplished for the more skilled player. SM should not be free loot for the average player, there should be a sense of progression to a certain degree. I define the average raider as someone who is willing to listen but not talk in voice chat, parses roughly 3k in full yavin gear, possibly less, does read sites like dulfy but doesn't touch the forums with a ten foot pole.

 

The fact of the matter is that casuals DO NOT TOUCH the forums with a ten foot pole. Anyone claiming to be a casual that frequents the forums is generally a player that is highly below average, slightly above average, or extremely above average. Average players just play the game.

 

Also, I don't know what server you guys are on but on Ebon Hawk, pugs clear Underlurker regularly. The DPS requirements for all the fights are trivial, even underlurker (it only requires a DPS to pull 2.7 on boss), and there are occasional pugs that kill sparky and malaphar HM.

 

I HIGHLY recommend bioware maintain the current difficulty of the operations for the most part. Story Mode operations should be like the OG Story Mode Flashpoints at launch, moderately challenging, contain mechanics, and prep you for hard mode.

 

With the exception of Underlurker, I think the fights are well tuned for PuGs. We aren't saying nerf them across the board, we are simply stating that the tuning of Underlurker is too tight for PuGs to deal with. Malaphar and Sparky HM are easier than UL SM.

[lpope]

With the exception of Underlurker, I think the fights are well tuned for PuGs. We aren't saying nerf them across the board, we are simply stating that the tuning of Underlurker is too tight for PuGs to deal with. Malaphar and Sparky HM are easier than UL SM.

 

Pretty much this. Although I would not nerf SM Underlurker without a bump up in difficulty on Revanite Commanders and Revan. What I want is some of the difficulty of Underlurker distributed to the final two bosses of TOS.

[Grayseven]

Operations boss fight difficulties should not be a bell curve. I've never understood this design philosophy that puts the hardest fights smack dab in the middle of the raid or operation.

 

Difficulties should be progressively more difficult, with the final fight being the most difficult. If you want to put a DPS check in an early fight, it needs to be a DPS check without a ton of odd-ball mechanics that will make it difficult to judge what is poor DPS and what is poor attention to mechanics.

 

After Underlurker, the last two bosses are stupidly easy. I mean, just ridiculously face roll even for PuGs.

[eartharioch]

[snip unnecessary rudeness]

Claiming that he has to is just magnificent assumption on his part and completely false.

snip e-peen stroking and chest thumping

 

That's not how I read what he said...I read it as a response to people telling him to read the guides. I could be wrong -- I don't know him personally -- but a lot of people's "solution" is to tell people to read the guides. Guide make things easier, and a lot of people just want easy, if you haven't noticed. It doesn't help that guides are available pretty much at Day 0 because of test servers, and that a good number of the people who would be interested in running an op "guideless" (and who write the guides) are on the test servers.

[Soul_of_Flames]

The only way that Story mode "prepares" someone for Hard mode is by giving people references for fight mechanics.

 

You only need to do a fight once in Story mode and that is enough preparation for Hard mode.

 

That's because it gives you a chance to see what the fight looks like and how it unfolds. Plus, if there are any different mechanics in Hard mode, the people explaining the fight can references them to Story mode as opposed to having to explain it from scratch. Basically, it only amounts to making the explanation easier to make and follow.

 

But under only incredibly rare circumstances can you actually practice your Hard mode strategy in Story mode. The mechanics and dependance simply aren't there for you to play off of.

 

So saying that Story mode "prepares" people for Hard mode is utter BS.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Soul_of_Flames

[eartharioch]

As to "learning the mechanics", well, Underlurker's mechanics aren't all that hard. At least, they wouldn't be if it weren't for the crappy engine that causes more failures than bad play does and boss mechanics that highlight those glaring engine issues like Underlurker does.

 

Your elite players aren't running system spec minimum toasters, either.

This is the main problem with UL.

 

But the real issue here is the fact that Story Mode should not be so tightly tuned that your average MMO gamer has to "step up" their game. Story Mode is for the masses, and the masses can't do it as is plainly evidenced by EA/BW numbers on the percentage of gamers completing ToS. Hard Mode is where players should have to "step up" their game and NiM is there to truly test even the best players.

 

I disagree -- operations should be a "step up" from flashpoints (which should be a step up from solo leveling). The problem is that when the difficulty comes from "engine issues", l2p isn't a solution -- only getting a better system is. I don't want UL "nerfed" per se, I want it retuned (on SM, anyway) so that people with average systems can actually experience the mechanics properly.

[Soul_of_Flames]

I don't understand people's lack of common scenes on this.

 

Why should easy difficulty not be easy? It's supposed to be designed to NOT be a challenge. There are two entirely other modes DESIGNATED for challenges! Why do people want the easy, not challenge mode, to be challenging?

 

It doesn't matter if 90% of the server can do it. If everyone can't, then it's tuned too tight. That's simply the point of the mode. There is no use trying to make arguments against that. It's like trying to argue that you can't ride your bike in the ocean. It's not designed to, nor should it!

 

If you're gonna do progression runs, progress in challenging modes. That's not what STORY mode is for. Because if you're a progression team trying to progress through STORY mode, then you're doing it wrong!

Edited March 29, 2015 by Soul_of_Flames

[Ruskaeth]

That's not how I read what he said...I read it as a response to people telling him to read the guides. I could be wrong -- I don't know him personally -- but a lot of people's "solution" is to tell people to read the guides. Guide make things easier, and a lot of people just want easy, if you haven't noticed. It doesn't help that guides are available pretty much at Day 0 because of test servers, and that a good number of the people who would be interested in running an op "guideless" (and who write the guides) are on the test servers.

Weird stuff. I expect people to say what they mean. From my pov he was just saying that whatever BW put out was not enough and thus "having to go to third party" to be able to do the boss. Of course you can understand it as a response to people, but it's just as likely to mean that BW should not make content that can not be dealt with without reading guides? In my view, normal raid group, pug or not, can figure out things like: "we have to go to the cross, there are markers", "we have to kill the ads else damage is too much" and "we have to push the dps". Of course, there is the last part. People not doing enough DPS. Reading tooltips and thinking about your class usually takes care of that. It's not necessary to go to third party sites there either.

[Tsillah]

I don't understand people's lack of common scenes on this.

 

Why should easy difficulty not be easy?

 

It's common sense btw.

 

But let me answer your question and you might see that you are not seeing the full picture here.

 

I explained it in a post earlier but here it is again.

 

When the game released we had Normal Mode and Story Mode didn't exist. Then Normal Mode disappeared and Story Mode came into being.

 

The idea initially was that Operations were endgame that provided a challenge. Normal Mode was therefore a preparation for Hard Mode.

 

However, after some time, it became clear that not only people who sought a challenge wanted to do the operations because of the story lines and well something to do really.

 

So Normal Mode was made easier and Story Mode was born. The point of Story Mode was to make it possible for most people to clear this content and partake of the story and have an activity for when they reached max level.

 

But here is the thing. Ever since we got the first level cap raise to 55, the new ops (DF and DP) suddenly were more difficult again. I remember the many pug fails on boss 2 in DF very well.

 

Now with level 60 it seems difficulty was stepped up a bit again....so really Story Mode is closer to the original concept of Normal Mode. And this is where the confusion lies.

 

BW has put the current Story Mode between the original idea of Normal Mode and the subsequent Story Mode. It's not Story Mode anymore but it's also not quite Normal Mode as most of the bosses are too easy for that. So instead of picking one, BW made a sort of mix.

 

And the result? Well by BW's own admission most people haven't touched ToS.

 

My suggestion is to have both a SM and a NM version with a shared cooldown so you can only do one of the two and put the SM version in the GF and of course with 186 gear as reward and a gear requirement just below that. It may be too late for the current ops but for the future that's what I would recommend.

 

Clearly a lot of people just want to do the ops for fun and enjoy the surroundings without the challenge element but there's also the need for challenge for progression raiding. But then again, MMOs still seem to insist on mixing pvp and pve skill sets together as well...doesn't make sense either.

 

But it's not about common sense since BW has changed how Story Mode works. And the discussion is now between people who think SM should be going back to being "Easy Mode" and the people who think it should be "Normal Mode". That's just a matter of point of view, not common sense. That's why I propose having both.

[TACeMossie]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=804193

 

If you have problems with SM Underlurker, more than half your raid sucks ridiculously badly.

That is all.

[AlrikFassbauer]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=804193

 

If you have problems with SM Underlurker, more than half your raid sucks ridiculously badly.

That is all.

 

So, you implicitely say that *all PUGs* are able to 4-man Underlurker ?

[TUXs]

My camp? You're missing the point. I heal on a progression team but I also run with guild mates who aren't progression raiders. My camp is simply common sense that dictates that when you have multiple tiers of difficulty, the lowest tier is for the masses and your highest is for the elite.

 

What you are saying is that the lowest tier should still be challenging for people who also run the higher tiers and you simply can not do that without removing any possibility of the general player base being unable to participate in end game play.

 

The "middle ground" is Hard Mode. Hard Mode is where better players go to be challenged. Nightmare Mode is there for the truly masochistic to see if everyone in their raid group can be "perfect".

 

The average player has already sacrificed by dint of the fact they will probably never successfully complete HM content while it is relevant. They will have to wait for the next expansion to get a few more levels and/or much better gear than can be had by completing current HM content while it is relevant.

 

Story Mode should not exist to challenge better players. It should only exist, and be tuned for, average players in crafted 186 gear. Fights like Underlurker can still have the mechanics, but there needs to be more wiggle room for the Story Mode version...like a much longer enrage timer, reduced damage output from adds and mechanic failures and reduced add health for example.

 

Hard Mode raiders have Hard Modes to be challenged by, they don't need to have Story Mode to be challenged by as well.

I'd quote about 10 other posts of yours to QFE you with, but I'm trying not to clutter up the forums

 

I echo your sentiment 100%!!! You've said it far better and absolutely more eloquently than I could have. Awesome posts...please keep up on this fight!

[Papazmurf]

So, you implicitely say that *all PUGs* are able to 4-man Underlurker ?

 

Not really sure what's going on in your post, but man I love the quotes in your sig. Hilarious.

[TUXs]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=804193

 

If you have problems with SM Underlurker, more than half your raid sucks ridiculously badly.

That is all.

So should everyone who's had problems quit the game? Is that your suggestion? Would that work better for you? Is that your wish?

 

Even if a player sucks, so what? Why do you care? Is this the first time you've succeeded at something? Act like you've done it before...and keep in mind that it's a video game...nobody IRL gives a **** what you do here.

[eartharioch]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=804193

 

If you have problems with SM Underlurker, more than half your raid sucks ridiculously badly.

That is all.

 

Funny, I didn't see any system specs posted in that thread...I suspect that at least one of the four didn't have an average computer (since they can devote extra cycles to recording). Pay-to-win FTW.