Bioware, your are losing casual customers.

[Never_Hesitate]

Since when do you know the game ? Maybe you know it a bit too good ?

 

And I often wonder when people defend OPs like they are now - do they know the game too well and falsly assume that everyone who is an casual players does have the same amount of knowledge about the game ?

 

It's as if an Formulöa 1 car racing pilot was saying to Joe Public : "It really isn't that difficult to drive an Formula 1 racing car !"

 

Alrik I think you're confusing "casual" with "bad"

Edited March 2, 2015 by Never_Hesitate

[midianlord]

Alrik I think you're confusing "casual" with "bad"

 

It seems like almost everyone in the forum-community is confusing "casual" with "bad" nowadays.

 

Or as I like to put it, "casual who is a good gamer" versus "wrong kind of 'casual.' "

 

Good-gamer casuals can learn to clear even very difficult content just fine, and do so all the time...No world/server firsts for their group, but I'm sure most such groups couldn't care less about that sort of thing, if it even occurs to them at all.

 

The wrong kind of "casual" on the other hand, are those who get our content nerfed/dumbed down, our classes nerfed and ruined (**** all those useless CoD kidiots who think they're PvPers in this game. Just **** them.), and development stagnated on everything but that repugnant cash shop.

 

Those are an absolute cancer on the community, and the game would be much better off if they were "encouraged" to leave, and stay gone. If genuinely hard content is what it takes to do so, then I'm all for more, more, more! (It would seem that we can't realistically ostracize or grief them out of the game, soooo.....)

 

Quality >>>>>...> Quantity, OK?

 

[cynicism]

 

Especially here, as the IP is going to pretty much guarantee a steady stream of revenue for the foreseeable future no matter what happens, or how demonstrably incompetent the dev-team is, and/or how demonstrably toxic and base the community becomes.

 

[/cynicism]

[LordCJK]

You don't need to be hardcore to clear the SM operations. You just need to know how to play your class and the tactics for these operations. And no, by ''know how to play'' I don't mean you should practice a lot of hours on a dummy as DPS. You just should know what you are supposed to do. Is it hard? No. Can you learn that by running quests and Kuat? Not necessarily.

Operations are not planetary quests.

If the problem is group coordination, well, you expect it from 8/16-man operation. The number of ppl in there is that these people would coordinate and kill the boss.

[mynameisbugged]

ITT, non-casuals teaching casuals to l2play.

[midianlord]

ITT, non-casuals teaching casuals to l2play.

 

ITT, weak troll is weak.

 

Come on already, mate: Trolling through deliberate obtuseness is so two years ago, it's not even pitiful.

 

1/10.

Edited March 2, 2015 by midianlord

[Khaleijo]

Since when do you know the game ? Maybe you know it a bit too good ?

 

And I often wonder when people defend OPs like they are now - do they know the game too well and falsly assume that everyone who is an casual players does have the same amount of knowledge about the game ?

 

It's as if an Formulöa 1 car racing pilot was saying to Joe Public : "It really isn't that difficult to drive an Formula 1 racing car !"

 

Even Joe Public would be able to drive the Formula 1 car, he won't win races or will be very fast, but as it is a only car Joe Public would be able to get it moving, given he has a drivers license and maybe someone who explains him briefly, this is for acceleration, that is the break, Joe will work out the rest, for sure. With some practise he will become a better driver even if he still won't be able to do races.

 

It's the same with raiding, you have your drivers license and know about driving in general (> how to do FPs and group content, old OPs and stuff) then you find someone who explains the new/changed things to you, either a nice ops leader who explains every important mechanic or you use one of all these youtube videos showing the bosses and fights. Or written guides if you prefer that. It just takes about five minutes, you could do that easily while waiting for a queue to pop or for players to travel to the operation you want to do.

Then all what's left is practise.

 

The knowlege about the game doesn't comes out of nowhere, every knowing player had either someone who explained things to him oder found out themselves by testing and more important practising.

Everyone has to start somewhere, no matter if they started to play three years ago or yesterday, they are all confronted with many colored circles of bad no matter what they are doing or how much time they invest into the game. You met this basic principle during you class story, while questing, in FPs and PVP. But it is you who has to learn and remember to react to them accordingly.

All the operation bosses are combinations of different circles or squares, stand here or there. Hit this or that, it doesn't matter if you have met Styrak, Corruptor Zero or Jarg and Sorno or the Calamari in Black Talon. In the end the true difference is just the color of the circle and the story behind them, everthing else is a variation of the same basic principle. Ignoring this basic principle is the biggest problem SM PUGs have.

 

A true casual player won't bother about some time practising mechanics, it takes time, but so what? Seeing how the group becomes better and better is rewarding too, with the right people even wiping still is a good time. In the end the boss will fall. The progression player is the one who wants to kill the boss as fast as possible no matter what, every casual player i met so far wants to have a good time nothing more. And that is not dependant of a dead boss or item drop.

 

Each time these players try a boss they will learn better what to do or not to do, the group will get further and further, until they get the boss down. Maybe this time the PUG couldn't get to the point where everyone has enough practise to kill the boss. They may break up, but from a generally in ops interested player, i would expect that he had learned at least something nonetheless and is able to do better next time, until it won't matter if it's a PUG or not, the average Joe Public knows enough about the mechanics to get through.

But we arent there yet. Either because Joe Public just hasn't had enough practise or because there are too many Joe Want-it-all who don't want to take the time practising from the beginning.

 

Just like the Ravagers, which almost every PUG is able to clear by now, the Temple will be no PUG killer anymore in some weeks or months. Either because enough players had enough practise there to get through, or because the gear will solve what missing knowledge or ignoring mechanics causes at the moment.

Just have patience, these operations don't run away and will be there for quite some time. Remember how long DF and DP where the only new operations and how diffucult Draxus was in the beginning, until people learned what to do there. No need to rush, there is enough time.

[AshlaBoga]

Alrik I think you're confusing "casual" with "bad"

 

Yeah, if a PUG can't clear the first 3 bosses of SM Ravagers then they're doing something wrong, it's not a matter of "casual.

[FerkWork]

Yeah, if a PUG can't clear the first 3 bosses of SM Ravagers then they're doing something wrong, it's not a matter of "casual.

 

This escapes some people

[power-alex]

So I guess, casuals are players who when playing rpg games set difficulty to Easy, because they don't really care about gameplay, but play for the story and lore. They do their story mission, then level their character on Rishi and Yaving, get themselves in 178 gear and think that they are ready for endgame content.

 

Since most of open world pve encounters last like 10-20 seconds and usually aoe based and do not require much defenses, people do not learn their rotations. And with the new discipline system leveling is done for them, so some might not even read what their new ability does (especially if it's passive). So when put into HM FP or SM ops environment they find themselves clicking random buttons while failing to avoid stupid. So first quality of a casual player is inability to play their class effectively. I myself when picking up new class spend several minutes reading tooltips, then half an hour swapping mods and enhancements and augmenting to meet optimal stat distribution, then half an hour on a dummy to get the feel of rotations. Only then I q for a fp to test what I've learned.

 

Another quality of a casual player is bad gear. There are no actual pointers in the game to tell what stats one should have. And there's very little information about augmenting. I didn't even know there was such a thing until I joined a guild. So I had to research those subjects and learn that dps for example should have 100% accuracy first then x amount of crit and surge and so on. I don't think casual players care about that. And I can totally understand that. As a casual player I would probably like to buy gear from vendor and just play.

 

So what can be done to keep casual players from leaving and avoid making them frustrated about not being able to beat certain content? I think optimal gearing stats should not be a secret. I think in character window if stat is too far from optimal it should be highlighted and tooltip should say what is the optimal number for current gear level stat budget. I think there should be built in parser and not only dps training dummies but also healing. And they should be easily accessible. On my first toon I had to collect money for several weeks to be able to unlock them. And when picking up ops or queuing for a flashpoint, description should say minimal HP and dps and hps numbers that are expected from a player, rather than a gear level.

 

Now I am not a hardcore raider. I do raid several times a week with friends, but so far we're just 2/10 in HM ops. So I also consider myself a casual player. But just a player who invests some time and thought into gearing and learning the game. We just need more people interested in that. And the info should be easily accessible inside the game, so that casual players are not turned off by the seeming difficulty of the game.

[AshlaBoga]

should say what is the optimal number for current gear level stat budget.

 

BIG Issue with that one.

 

Even most world first raiders have debates as to what is "optimal." And if the top guilds can't agree 100% on what's optimal, then that means it's not really a cut and dry issue.

 

Check out Dulfy's guides, lots of debate (even on optimal rotation).

Edited March 3, 2015 by AshlaBoga

[Fidelicatessen]

Another quality of a casual player is bad gear. There are no actual pointers in the game to tell what stats one should have. And there's very little information about augmenting.

 

There are, in fact, actual pointers in the game to tell what stats one should have (not secondary stats, though). You're right, there's very little information about augmenting. Not even a decent Tutorial entry, really.

 

So what can be done to keep casual players from leaving and avoid making them frustrated about not being able to beat certain content? I think optimal gearing stats should not be a secret. I think in character window if stat is too far from optimal it should be highlighted and tooltip should say what is the optimal number for current gear level stat budget. I think there should be built in parser and not only dps training dummies but also healing. And they should be easily accessible. On my first toon I had to collect money for several weeks to be able to unlock them. And when picking up ops or queuing for a flashpoint, description should say minimal HP and dps and hps numbers that are expected from a player, rather than a gear level.

 

WAAAAY too much work for a casual. Average item level works fine. To clear SM content, you really don't have to worry whether you have too much crit or surge, you just have to make sure you have gear of a certain level with the correct mainstat.

 

Excellent post! I had a couple quibbles with it, though--see above, in green.

[Fidelicatessen]

I'd like to remind the community that there are two groups being discussed here, with an intersection (think of a Venn diagram with two circles).

 

1) Casual players.

2) KDY Academy Windowlickers.

 

I see 1) having little problem working their way through the new ops. Within a couple months, it'll be on farm mode for 1). I enjoy grouping with 1), as if there are holes in their knowledge they'll let me educate them. Learning and teaching are two of my favorite things to do.

 

I wish 2) would stop playing SWTOR altogether. They are terrible to play with and overall toxic. If the new ops are so hard they quit playing, then bring on more ops like the new ones, because it will actually make this a better place for everyone (except the 2)s).

[Icestar]

It is all about having fun, if the casuals are not having fun they leave.

 

Simple as that.

 

There can be a core of 5% hardcore raiders left but I doubt the game will be getting much updates then.

[Whojoo]

Sword Squadron

The only time you have to move (if you're not the bomb runner) is either to dodge Ground Burst Missile (red circles), if you get Huge Grenade (big white circle), or to switch between walkers. Dodging red circles only requires that you shift several meters. Basically, getting the white circle is the only thing that constitutes a potential dps loss, but everyone has a chance of getting it and it will result in a dps loss even if you're ranged dps.

 

If you are running around like crazy, then you are doing the fight incorrectly. It's better that you actually observe the fight, as the mechanics are very predictable.

 

Don't forget Mega Blast. It is an AoE targeted on one of the tanks. Bomb carier and melee have a chance to be hit by another ~9k. Dodging a red circle can get you to close to the tank as melee.

And if the tank doesn't take distance when the bomb carier is running the bomb then the carier can be hit as well.

[Przemo_No]

whether it is the bomb blast or red circles or orange circle, I am yet to see the group where everyone knows how to react to all those mechanics.

In fact they are noting really new, the issue is that they happen way to often and too fast after each other.

 

This and only this means, that in my personal case (close range melee) I am mostly focused on avoiding damage instead of dealing it. Whether it is red or orange or blue circle/cone, the rule is: AVOID IT.

Fine, but if I run away form it, I am unable to stand behind the boss and hit him with my hardest abilities.

Then I fail to provide my required input for the group. Then the group fails to beat the boss and the circle (pun intended) is now complete.

Et caetera, et caetera...

 

BAD design.

[davidp_newton]

Even Joe Public would be able to drive the Formula 1 car, he won't win races or will be very fast, but as it is a only car Joe Public would be able to get it moving, given he has a drivers license and maybe someone who explains him briefly, this is for acceleration, that is the break, Joe will work out the rest, for sure. With some practise he will become a better driver even if he still won't be able to do races.

 

Erm no. WRONG. An F1 car is not something that the average person can drive at all.There are a lot of videos on Youtube about people from motoring TV programs who go and try to drive an F1 car and find it very difficult. It is the speed you are require to do things which is a metaphorical killer and can be the literal killer. F1 brakes do not work below a certain operating temperature. F1 tyres do not grip below a certain operating temperature. To even get them up to those temperatures you have to drive at speeds which the average person cannot cope with. The speed you need to change gear, the reactions to brake in the correct place, the physical fitness you have to possess to withstand the G forces the acceleration, braking and cornering put on your body: all of these mean that most people simply cannot cope with driving an F1 car. In SWTOR terms an F1 car is an at-level nightmare mode operation boss which will filet most people that try to go against it extremely quickly.

 

If you're going to use analogies like that then please make sure the analogies actually work and are sensible before using them.

Edited March 3, 2015 by davidp_newton

[JouerTue]

whether it is the bomb blast or red circles or orange circle, I am yet to see the group where everyone knows how to react to all those mechanics.

In fact they are noting really new, the issue is that they happen way to often and too fast after each other.

 

This and only this means, that in my personal case (close range melee) I am mostly focused on avoiding damage instead of dealing it. Whether it is red or orange or blue circle/cone, the rule is: AVOID IT.

Fine, but if I run away form it, I am unable to stand behind the boss and hit him with my hardest abilities.

Then I fail to provide my required input for the group. Then the group fails to beat the boss and the circle (pun intended) is now complete.

Et caetera, et caetera...

 

BAD design.

 

i'm raiding with a sentinel char and have no issues in uptime or dps output but that's personal performance and so irrelevant.

in general you don't need to run miles, just a few steps and the only casts are MS and flamethrower..obviously painfully keyboard turning around and clicking abilities is harder than having keybound your stuff, and that's in every mmo..

 

ravagers is totally doable by a full yavin gear pug group. SS can be done burning U2 then chain bombing U1.

in my opinion is just UL that could use a reduction in lurkelings(adds) HP but leaving hiding necessity, that's a nice mechanic, together with the cross, and pretending to do the kill ignoring those would mean dumbing down too much the fight..

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Yeah, if a PUG can't clear the first 3 bosses of SM Ravagers then they're doing something wrong, it's not a matter of "casual.

 

When a pug consists of a bunch of idiots in green and blue gear, it is the player that is doing something wrong. And what seems to evade the attention of the self entitled people that think because they pay for the game everything should be handed to them, well I pay for the game to experience fun and challenging content. Why should my experience be ruined because you cant be bothered with simple mechanics where you just have to stay out of stupid.

Edited March 3, 2015 by lightSaberAddiCt

[AAAAzrael]

Even Joe Public would be able to drive the Formula 1 car, he won't win races or will be very fast, but as it is a only car Joe Public would be able to get it moving, given he has a drivers license and maybe someone who explains him briefly, this is for acceleration, that is the break, Joe will work out the rest, for sure. With some practise he will become a better driver even if he still won't be able to do races.

 

 

Having driven various race and rally cars for work I must say you have no idea what you are talking about and you are completely wrong. Joe Public would have major trouble staying on the track cruising around and probably he would haven driven too slowly and overheated the engine or too fast and crashed.

 

It is possible to train Joe Public over 1-2 day course to drive F1 car around the track in specially prepared set-up. As it is possible to carry Joe Public through a NiM op if you spend enough time and effort on it.

Edited March 3, 2015 by AAAAzrael

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Having driven various race and rally cars for work I must say you have no idea what you are talking about and you are completely wrong. Joe Public would have major trouble staying on the track cruising around and probably he would haven driven too slowly and overheated the engine or too fast and crashed.

 

It is possible to train Joe Public over 1-2 day course to drive F1 car around the track in specially prepared set-up. As it is possible to carry Joe Public through a NiM op if you spend enough time and effort on it.

 

And that is why people should stop using analogies to try and prove a point...

[FerkWork]

Simple analogy:

You sign up for a race, the fee allows you to participate. Does that entitle them to make the track shorter because you refuse to push on and rather QQ about how it's unfair. No. What's really killing the game is QQrs who want to get everything done now and make it all about the rewards rather than reward of entertainment. I care more about joy of downing Revan than winning the mainhand. It's about the fun not the rewards of being able to face roll and carry so you can get your coms.

Edited March 3, 2015 by FerkWork

[AlrikFassbauer]

Simple analogy:

You sign up for a race, the fee allows you to participate. Does that entitle them to make the track shorter because you refuse to push on and rather QQ about how it's unfair. No.

 

You need time for training. For proper training, this at least.

 

Who trains you ? NOt a PUG. Not at all. You'd need a guild.

 

And at that point the OP becomes an guild's run, because only in guilds there are the best performers for raids to be found. Not in PGs. Not at all. Except if you know a person who prefers to stay free personally.

 

And guild runs are not casuals. At least in my opinion. A guild might contain casual players[/iu],

but as a body , a guild is not to be called "casual". It isn't, in my opinion, because guilds train people. They're "privately owned companies" (compared to join-stock companies, for example), so to say, bad analogue, I know it, but I didn't have a better term available to express what I mean.

 

But I admit that there do exist so-called "casual guilds". Do they do HM ? Do they do NIM ? I don't know, but I have a strong tendency towards "no" in the case of NIM.

To me, "casual guilds" are the middle between "casual players" and "raid guilds".

 

In "raid guilds" people get trained. In "casual guilds" not so much.

Which implies that "raid guilds" are so much faster at adapting *any* difficulty - because of the better in-guild knowledge, the better in-guild training etc. ...

[AshlaBoga]

Even Joe Public would be able to drive the Formula 1 car, he won't win races or will be very fast, but as it is a only car Joe Public would be able to get it moving, given he has a drivers license and maybe someone who explains him briefly, this is for acceleration, that is the break, Joe will work out the rest, for sure. With some practise he will become a better driver even if he still won't be able to do races.

 

That's a terrible analogy actually as Joe Public WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO WORK OUT THE REST SAFELY. Joe Public might actually get himself horrifically injured even killed doing what you describe.

Edited March 3, 2015 by AshlaBoga

[midianlord]

(Most uninformed analogy ever seen on these forums.)

 

Please, community, don't let ^that^ be you!

 

That's even worse than saying one is a truck-driver because one pulled a U-Haul 5-tonne through a weigh-scale once :/

Edited March 4, 2015 by midianlord

[Fidelicatessen]

And guild runs are not casuals. At least in my opinion. A guild might contain casual players[/iu],

but as a body , a guild is not to be called "casual". It isn't, in my opinion, because guilds train people. They're "privately owned companies" (compared to join-stock companies, for example), so to say, bad analogue, I know it, but I didn't have a better term available to express what I mean.

 

Every guild I belong to is casual and runs SM ops. Every guild I belong to is happy to train their new level 60s on the proper mechanics of ops. Any progressive raider would agree that these guilds are definitely casual.

 

I think we need a proper definition of "casual," because right now it means whatever the current poster decides it means.

 

I like the footrace analogy, personally. Anyone can run half a mile. But if you pay to join a race (costs ~$50, but can be ~$100 or more) and can't finish it, you wouldn't demand that they shorten the race, would you? Even if more than half the people couldn't finish? Wouldn't that just indicate that half the people hadn't trained enough?

Edited March 4, 2015 by Fidelicatessen