The bad news about Mercs being underpowered in survivability...

[headshot_hendo]

In other words, BW doesn't play their own game and only goes by metrics.

 

In these metrics also don't separate out what rolls people are filling. Most of the mercs/mandos that did do well were running as healers.

 

True but the point still stands.

[Darth__Reaver]

ok. the op is overly dramatic and thinks that mercs are waaay worse than every other class in every way. so on and so forth. I think we can agree to treat most of his stuff as white noise, but this...

 

 

every time I hear someone cite parse numbers as a rationale for pvp viability, I look at their post and just laugh.

 

seriously man. c'mmon. dps isn't an issue. survivability is a HUGE issue. weakest self and team heals of any dps heal class. no escapes or dcds that can force focus swaps (which, again, both other healing classes have...even in dps spec). and sorcs can melt you in 2-4 gcds, as quick or quicker than a merc, but they still have their recourse to barrier and h2f. snipers....not so much.

 

I stated before that ranged should be predominately casters. they should do more dmg per attack, but they have to be mroe susceptible to interrupts. iunno. BW went the opposite way on this one. they made ranged much more mobile and gave them a lot more "cannot be interrupted" perks.

 

electro net stays. it's a 1-trick pony, and half the classes that get netted can break it and recover anyway. (troll ops) but it does often deter them from attacking for a while.

 

• the AC needs a legit dcd that they can rely on just like every other class (aside from snipers and PTs) has
  
• the dps AC should at the very least be able to spam their cast heal (which still cost resources). or if you wanna be a douche about it, don't let sorcs and ops cast heal more than once every 15s. game-breaking? no. just an obvious iniquity and QoL issue.
  

 

Snap... I've been taking a brake for awhile but you just reminded me why your one of my favorite mercs. Besides me ofcorse...

[MusicRider]

ok. the op is overly dramatic and thinks that mercs are waaay worse than every other class in every way. so on and so forth. I think we can agree to treat most of his stuff as white noise, but this...

 

 

every time I hear someone cite parse numbers as a rationale for pvp viability, I look at their post and just laugh.

 

seriously man. c'mmon. dps isn't an issue. survivability is a HUGE issue. weakest self and team heals of any dps heal class. no escapes or dcds that can force focus swaps (which, again, both other healing classes have...even in dps spec). and sorcs can melt you in 2-4 gcds, as quick or quicker than a merc, but they still have their recourse to barrier and h2f. snipers....not so much.

 

I stated before that ranged should be predominately casters. they should do more dmg per attack, but they have to be mroe susceptible to interrupts. iunno. BW went the opposite way on this one. they made ranged much more mobile and gave them a lot more "cannot be interrupted" perks.

 

electro net stays. it's a 1-trick pony, and half the classes that get netted can break it and recover anyway. (troll ops) but it does often deter them from attacking for a while.

 

• the AC needs a legit dcd that they can rely on just like every other class (aside from snipers and PTs) has
  
• the dps AC should at the very least be able to spam their cast heal (which still cost resources). or if you wanna be a douche about it, don't let sorcs and ops cast heal more than once every 15s. game-breaking? no. just an obvious iniquity and QoL issue.
  

 

Let me make it clear first that certainly mercs need some form of help. But, I disagree about some of your points here... Mobility and some limited interrupt immunity are key factors, without them such specs are unplayable as they are easy to shut down, see ling sorcs prior to 3.0, it was a spec that was never played. Also e-net, although every class can deal with it with all their dcds up, it requires them to burn some of their key one leaving them very vulnerable. For example, sorcs often have to use cc-breaker and barrier at the same time; it is a good trade off for one net as they are pretty much sitting ducks after that.

[Darth__Reaver]

Just give mercs a mini deathstar so it can insta kill any class and pvp will be balanced.

 

But no for real I've been playing wow for some reason lately and watch the hunter class (I play dk) and an XXm leap backwards would change a lot but then again im tired and I have no clue what I'm talking about. However for me when I play my issue is melee I never have much issue with ranged classes unless facing a sniper with every single DCD. That said it is my opinion alone. I have many ideas for merc since I main one played this class since launch and have too many on different servers but most of them on jung ma. I mean I *********** still love this class I even enrolled again.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Darth__Reaver

[Zadtro]

Any monkey can do good damage when ignored.

 

That bit right there in red is this huge sign saying "I've never played merc".

 

If you had ever played merc in ranked you'd know that more than half the time you're being a fake tank and looking to stay alive as long as possible. Damage very rarely comes into it because that implies you're being ignored.

 

And back to the start: Any monkey can do good damage when ignored.

 

Any dps spec of any class.

 

I haven't played a merc because i have a mando. I do opposites so i have 1 of each advanced class.

 

What i have also seen in ranked is mercs/mandos thinking heavy armor will be enough to stand at the front and shoot first..... great thinking there (i am not saying it was you, i am just saying it happens). Yes you can do great ranged damage at ==> range <== but you can be leaped very easily. Heavy armor doesn't = being able to face tank.

 

Kiting includes keeping objects between you and the dps, i have been on teams with mando and mercs kiting the enemy team members past us whilst we hit them and they are ignoring us because they are obsessed with going for mando/merc. Players sometime get tunnel vision which can be easily exploited. If they go for you in the first round and it doesn't work they probably will try starting on someone else which means you can burn them down because you guys bring the dps.

[Nightkin]

because you guys bring the dps.

Why do people keep insist that we do more dps then anyone else? :S We have the same in pvp or even slightly less then the current FOTM classes. PvE is another story where we parse very well but you cannot apply that to the pvp scene

[MusicRider]

doesn't =

 

!= or /=

[Coloneli]

Why do people keep insist that we do more dps then anyone else? :S We have the same in pvp or even slightly less then the current FOTM classes. PvE is another story where we parse very well but you cannot apply that to the pvp scene

 

People want mercs to remain like they are cause we are easy kills. No one that plays a merc in pvp will never say that we have the most damage. And if the parse was all that counted then maras are fine too. GG

[Nightkin]

People want mercs to remain like they are cause we are easy kills. No one that plays a merc in pvp will never say that we have the most damage. And if the parse was all that counted then maras are fine too. GG

Exactly, it just baffles me whenever people say "Well if you want more defence, you have to give up that superiour dps of yours" and im just....what superiour dps?!

[Zadtro]

Why do people keep insist that we do more dps then anyone else? :S We have the same in pvp or even slightly less then the current FOTM classes. PvE is another story where we parse very well but you cannot apply that to the pvp scene

 

It is the fact you can do great dps from 30m range. I would rather have less dps and a bit more survivability. In terms of how quickly you can hit people from 30m you do bring the dps. I would like to see merc/mando given some more survivability but it will come at the cost of dps.

 

Everyone is going nuts at hatred sins at the moment having great survivability and great damage so the nerf bat should hit them hard soon enough.

 

I agree that something needs to change for the mando/merc but i do think that they are ok in their current state. In a 4v4 who would you go for first, the sniper or the merc? The merc because of off heals normally and off heals change the whole game in 4v4 dps.

[Darth__Reaver]

People want mercs to remain like they are cause we are easy kills. No one that plays a merc in pvp will never say that we have the most damage. And if the parse was all that counted then maras are fine too. GG

 

That explains why not one complains when I que ranked as dps merc...

[Darth__Reaver]

It is the fact you can do great dps from 30m range. I would rather have less dps and a bit more survivability. In terms of how quickly you can hit people from 30m you do bring the dps. I would like to see merc/mando given some more survivability but it will come at the cost of dps.

 

Everyone is going nuts at hatred sins at the moment having great survivability and great damage so the nerf bat should hit them hard soon enough.

 

I agree that something needs to change for the mando/merc but i do think that they are ok in their current state. In a 4v4 who would you go for first, the sniper or the merc? The merc because of off heals normally and off heals change the whole game in 4v4 dps.

So what your saying is make us complete **** for group ranked??? For real??? Less dps = why on god green earth should I even play the damn AC. Dude and off healz? If you can call them that ill just sit here and /nobones.

 

P.s. Post came off kinda harsh but keep in mind I did not use caps lock.

[KingKalbo]

So what your saying is make us complete **** for group ranked??? For real??? Less dps = why on god green earth should I even play the damn AC. Dude and off healz? If you can call them that ill just sit here and /nobones.

 

P.s. Post came off kinda harsh but keep in mind I did not use caps lock.

 

Those off-heals are aweful compared to a sorc. Not as aweful as a Slinger/Snipe; but just plain bad for arena play. I was criting 10k+ heals on my sorc just running around Rishi leveling and doing the odd WZ...Seems a buff is in order for that too....But what do I know?..just a casual here.

[Nightkin]

It is the fact you can do great dps from 30m range. I would rather have less dps and a bit more survivability. In terms of how quickly you can hit people from 30m you do bring the dps. I would like to see merc/mando given some more survivability but it will come at the cost of dps.

 

Everyone is going nuts at hatred sins at the moment having great survivability and great damage so the nerf bat should hit them hard soon enough.

 

I agree that something needs to change for the mando/merc but i do think that they are ok in their current state. In a 4v4 who would you go for first, the sniper or the merc? The merc because of off heals normally and off heals change the whole game in 4v4 dps.

We bring the same dps as everyone else if not even slightly less, but you dont seem to play a merc so you wouldnt realise that.

And our heals are nigh on impossible to use (in dps spec), wich also you dont seem to realise.

So in short, i strongly disagree that mercs need to get dps toned down in order to get any new defences. It would be nice if you based your assumptions of fact instead of hearsay

Edited February 2, 2015 by Nightkin

[AlrikFassbauer]

Why do people keep insist that we do more dps then anyone else?

 

In PvE this might be even true.

[Nightkin]

In PvE this might be even true.

Yes 100% true even, but this isnt PvE so that idea needs to get flushed down the toilett asap :S

[Zoom_VI]

In PvE this might be even true.

 

The funny thing is in PvE we only do more DPS on dummies. In any raid fight that involves adds, target swaps, or forced downtime, we end up falling behind.

 

Also the PvE spec that does all that DPS is IO and IO doesn't even have that burst that people are going on about having.

[foxmob]

Let me make it clear first that certainly mercs need some form of help. But, I disagree about some of your points here... Mobility and some limited interrupt immunity are key factors, without them such specs are unplayable as they are easy to shut down, see ling sorcs prior to 3.0, it was a spec that was never played. Also e-net, although every class can deal with it with all their dcds up, it requires them to burn some of their key one leaving them very vulnerable. For example, sorcs often have to use cc-breaker and barrier at the same time; it is a good trade off for one net as they are pretty much sitting ducks after that.

 

ranged -- throughout the course of human history -- are weak defense, strong offense, and easily shredded when melee get to them. there's fundamentally nothing wrong with this. ranged should not be able to run around all over the place. they should require the support of their melee and tank and healer. I play a merc. I understand that this would hurt me. but it's just common sense. the issue is matchmaking/team composition. that's how you fix this. you don't give ranged units the same instant and on-the-move abils that melee have. ranged can hit from 30m+. they shouldn't every be allowed to unload on the move (pun intended). stop making ranged dps (or any dps tbh) self-sufficient. require a melee and a ranged on each arena pop. require a tank/healer. this isn't going to kill the queue. people don't queue support roles because they don't have to. people queue sorc over sniper/merc because the sorc doesn't need a tank/heal to be effective (in solo). stop upping the ability of classes to rape face on their own and start fixing how you put teams together in the first place. or...give everyone the same (basic) kind of dcds so that ppl run sorcs because they like the look rather than being the only viable option.

[Darth__Reaver]

ranged -- throughout the course of human history -- are weak defense, strong offense, and easily shredded when melee get to them. there's fundamentally nothing wrong with this. ranged should not be able to run around all over the place. they should require the support of their melee and tank and healer. I play a merc. I understand that this would hurt me. but it's just common sense. the issue is matchmaking/team composition. that's how you fix this. you don't give ranged units the same instant and on-the-move abils that melee have. ranged can hit from 30m+. they shouldn't every be allowed to unload on the move (pun intended). stop making ranged dps (or any dps tbh) self-sufficient. require a melee and a ranged on each arena pop. require a tank/healer. this isn't going to kill the queue. people don't queue support roles because they don't have to. people queue sorc over sniper/merc because the sorc doesn't need a tank/heal to be effective (in solo). stop upping the ability of classes to rape face on their own and start fixing how you put teams together in the first place. or...give everyone the same (basic) kind of dcds so that ppl run sorcs because they like the look rather than being the only viable option.

 

Dein your post is true and just. However even if it were to happen (set teams) mercs still will be #1 it's that damn anti focus crap you keep going on about and we need that move.

[Surbatu]

Yes 100% true even, but this isnt PvE so that idea needs to get flushed down the toilett asap :S

 

BS! There are pvp dummies too! And only dps on dummies is the true dps and counts!

 

Mecrs can hit from 30m and thats why they are fine. Because melee classes cant hit from 30m with ALL their abilities - just with half of them or close these 30 m in 1 sec. BECAUSE REASONS.

[Nightkin]

BS! There are pvp dummies too! And only dps on dummies is the true dps and counts!

 

Mecrs can hit from 30m and thats why they are fine. Because melee classes cant hit from 30m with ALL their abilities - just with half of them or close these 30 m in 1 sec. BECAUSE REASONS.

Well put

[DariusCalera]

ranged -- throughout the course of human history -- are weak defense, strong offense, and easily shredded when melee get to them. there's fundamentally nothing wrong with this. ranged should not be able to run around all over the place. they should require the support of their melee and tank and healer. I play a merc. I understand that this would hurt me. but it's just common sense. the issue is matchmaking/team composition. that's how you fix this. you don't give ranged units the same instant and on-the-move abils that melee have. ranged can hit from 30m+. they shouldn't every be allowed to unload on the move (pun intended). stop making ranged dps (or any dps tbh) self-sufficient. require a melee and a ranged on each arena pop. require a tank/healer. this isn't going to kill the queue. people don't queue support roles because they don't have to. people queue sorc over sniper/merc because the sorc doesn't need a tank/heal to be effective (in solo). stop upping the ability of classes to rape face on their own and start fixing how you put teams together in the first place. or...give everyone the same (basic) kind of dcds so that ppl run sorcs because they like the look rather than being the only viable option.

 

I honestly agree with most of what you said but I would have to add in that through out most of human history the melee did not have a way to instantly close the gap to the ranged.

 

I think that is the biggest issue that has arisen for sorc/sages and mercs/mandos and why they need the mobility and instant casts. If those gap closers did not exist, or were not as prevalent, then going back to a more stationary casting class makes sense. (It's been said numerous times on the forums that for a ranged turret class, the devs did a lot of things right with the sniper that they failed with on the others.)

 

I would be fine with going back to a melee, ranged, stealth scenario where the ranged melted the melee, the stealth would sneak in and kill the ranged, and the melee would own the stealth. But for this to happen, all of the classes would need to see a significant reduction in their abilities and I really don't think that is going to happen.

[foxmob]

I would be fine with going back to a melee, ranged, stealth scenario where the ranged melted the melee, the stealth would sneak in and kill the ranged, and the melee would own the stealth. But for this to happen, all of the classes would need to see a significant reduction in their abilities and I really don't think that is going to happen.

 

oh. I agree. my previous post, to which the guy I quoted was responding, basically said that BW "went the other way" in this regard. they just keep adding abils that make melee less melee and ranged less ranged. so this isn't going to happen. you might as well keep asking BW to get rid of the gear grind or bolster. it just isn't happening. they're married to this system, and they are -- apparently -- hardcore catholics (no such thing as divorce).

 

therefore, they need to give similar abils to mercs (and snipers) that they've given to sorcs (dcds that force swaps, h2f...something to reset the fight). they've already given mercs and sorcs a ton of stuff they can do "on the fly." consequently, they've also turned interrupts into a joke and managed to make stuns even MORE important (cuz they double as interrupts except actual interrupt rarely work anymore).

[Zoom_VI]

therefore, they need to give similar abils to mercs (and snipers) that they've given to sorcs (dcds that force swaps, h2f...something to reset the fight).

 

The thing is though, I don't think sniper will ever be able to be pug viable as far as arenas go. Snipers are a pillbox ranged. Pug arenas places way too much emphasis on mobility for pillbox ranged to really work.

 

In order for snipers to be buffed to solo ranked viable status sniper would have to have their defenses buffed to the point that they would be invincible gods in group ranked or any other situation involving tanks and healers.

[Zadtro]

So what your saying is make us complete **** for group ranked??? For real??? Less dps = why on god green earth should I even play the damn AC. Dude and off healz? If you can call them that ill just sit here and /nobones.

 

P.s. Post came off kinda harsh but keep in mind I did not use caps lock.

 

Thanks for not using caps I am just saying as a ranged class you can do all your damage at 30m so being able to be killed when melee catch you is fair. Also having off heals is useful, not amazing but useful.

 

We bring the same dps as everyone else if not even slightly less, but you dont seem to play a merc so you wouldnt realise that.

And our heals are nigh on impossible to use (in dps spec), wich also you dont seem to realise.

So in short, i strongly disagree that mercs need to get dps toned down in order to get any new defences. It would be nice if you based your assumptions of fact instead of hearsay

 

Ok, I am gonna say it one more time, i have a mando. I have one of every advanced class. So i know how stuff works. Dps on my mando at 30m is awesome. I have a slinger but hate turret style, on the mando i have some more movement which i prefer.

 

Anyway what you are saying you want the same dps just a defensive buff so you can become the next sorc or sin?