Action For The Ravager's Exploit

[Pagy]

hey guys

 

guys

 

its unfair they killed a dragon with exploited gear and we cant yet HALP US BW UR OUR ONLY HOPE ahahahahaahahaahahaah

 

omg "progression leaderboards"

 

"dps leaderboards"

 

this **** is hilarious

[idnewton]

I'm done with you. It amazes me how you can miss a point, redefine an argument, make a statement I've already disproven, then tell me I'm wrong, all in the same post.

 

I can disprove your points with my previous posts, which you conveniently chose to ignore. You must be great in political arguments, going round and round and round, making the same disproven points on the same false sense of knowledge in the subject area, without actually directly responding to anything I said.

 

You're simply not worth my time at this point.

Edited February 2, 2015 by idnewton

[LordArtemis]

Forum violations galore

 

You are not doing yourself any favors with this kind of post idnewton.

 

You can try to twist my meaning all you want, but all it does is make you look like.......

 

Neither are you Archangel.

Edited February 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[ArchangelLBC]

Perhaps not. I'd edit it out, but I've long since decided to let my mistakes stand as they were made (well, except maybe typos), if only as a reminder that I make many of them. I'd apologize to id, but since I am on his ignore list (again it seems) it wouldn't do much good.

 

Honestly on point, while leaving the exploit in place doesn't excuse violating the ToS, the damage to the community over this nonsense really is worse than any of the other affects this might or might have been. I still cannot believe it was left in place as long as it was =/

[LordArtemis]

Perhaps not. I'd edit it out, but I've long since decided to let my mistakes stand as they were made (well, except maybe typos), if only as a reminder that I make many of them. I'd apologize to id, but since I am on his ignore list (again it seems) it wouldn't do much good.

 

Honestly on point, while leaving the exploit in place doesn't excuse violating the ToS, the damage to the community over this nonsense really is worse than any of the other affects this might or might have been. I still cannot believe it was left in place as long as it was =/

 

You can do as you like of course. Just be aware that you only open yourself to sanction with direct insults like that. It would probably be wise to edit out the insult.

 

Now, note...I insult Bioware directly and I am not apologetic for it. If they sanctioned me for it, I would accept it. So far they have been gracious enough to put up with my caterwauling. But I am aware that I am guilty of the very same thing when it comes to them.

 

In that case I will accept what comes if anything.

Edited February 2, 2015 by LordArtemis

[idnewton]

From what I recall, it started at roughly the same time the dev's Christmas break started, so... what are ya gonna do. Unlike the Harbinger's hamsters dying, this fix required more than simply restarting a server (a process which apparently takes several hours ). Bad timing is bad. Pretty sure the QA team is the party at fault. If they had tested it, it would've at least been caught and postponed. Oh well.

Jedi do not deal in 'ifs'.[/Quote]At least they have a QA team now. Pretty sure they only got one like six months ago.

[VincentBedok]

From what I recall, it started at roughly the same time the dev's Christmas break started, so... what are ya gonna do. Unlike the Harbinger's hamsters dying, this fix required more than simply restarting a server (a process which apparently takes several hours ). Bad timing is bad. Pretty sure the QA team is the party at fault. If they had tested it, it would've at least been caught and postponed. Oh well.At least they have a QA team now. Pretty sure they only got one like six months ago.

 

Even though it was their Christmas break, I still think it could have been handled better. Have Three examples (diminishing in Value as they Start):

 

1) Disable Loot drops from the final boss - Probably the simplest in terms of programming (set some random loot table database to null?). This would allow players to continue running the Operation, without allowing exploiters to take advantage of free 198s. The reason this is top of the list is because after the bug was patched the devs could send out "gear gifts" to players who had the achievement. Even though this would still allow exploiters to run the Op & get the gear, it would limit the number of items they got Tremendously; Example: CheaterDude exploits SM & HM for 3 weeks across 5 Toons. As it was Cheaterdude would have 45 - 198 pieces, 45 - 192 pieces, 30 - 198 Token Chestguards, 30 - 192 Token Chestguards, 15 Matter Transubstantiator, 45 Exonium, 30 Rocket Decorations, & a potential amount. Under this system Cheaterdude would get 1 set of drops (That's if Bioware didn't take it away from them)

 

2) Disable the Operation - If it was ToS it would be a different story because that was directly part of the Revan storyline. However, Ravagers was the most current Operation in terms of difficulty. Therefore a few weeks delay letting everyone gear up a bit would have done the community good... Considering most pug groups were meh at best in the Operation. They may have even been able to delay it for a while longer, allowing the 3.0 expansion to "continue providing new content."

 

3) Disable the 198 Tokens from the Vendor - This would Bioware to do the exact same thing it did this time in response to the exploit. Except having to remove equipped gear, & with little to no risk to the economy from REs.

 

The closest I've come to video game programming is an extension for bukkit. But one of these 3 probably could have been reprogrammed in little time, potentially even with no risk. Especially if their Source is nice & clean... Granted I'm sure on a game of this size a release build would probably take at least 24 hours lol.

[Darth_Raelen]

Now, I've kept my subscription going as who knows, I might actually want to log in and RP sometime, but I've actually not really played the game since the launch of the 55-60 content. Why? I couldn't stand going back to the same old leveling style after the 12x spoiled me. I -loved- leveling by only doing the class story missions, and I want the 12x class story xp to return.

 

Regardless. A few valid points were made. I've played this game off and on since early launch, and Bioware NEVER pays us back for the millions of credits we lose. Heck, I remember having to pay HUGE fees to learn speeder piloting early on in the game, and even having to pay to train to get the sprint power at level 4 I think. Did I ever get a refund on each character that paid to learn these things? Nein. Nyet. No. Never.

 

I recall it costing at least a hundred thousand credits or more to learn just speeder piloting 1, then I learned speeder piloting 2 which was even more exorbitantly expensive. I mean, it's not like these training powers for speeder piloting actually came with a speeder, that might justify the extreme cost at the time.

 

That, of course, isn't the only issue. I love not having to pay for training now, but it also means that I've wasted millions training in the past on many characters. Will I ever see a return on that investment? No.

 

Did I exploit this issue? No, as I said, I wasn't in game during any of this.

 

Would I have exploited? Yes. If you guys know about this issue before it even goes to live, and wait over four weeks to do anything about it, that's your fault, not mine. You guys make mistakes to mess us over, why not let us take advantage of your mistakes when it finally benefits us?

 

___________________________

 

And during this crusade, you could have done something more productive, like instituting 12x xp as a 3x xp for each class buff unlocked, fixing the many bugs in the game, releasing a new playable species (I want Zeltron, but many seem to prefer Togruta.)

 

As a roleplayer, leveling up quickly and having more species options is -highly- important to me, to the point that yes, I'd pay to unlock them, but frankly I think they should be free to subscribers.

 

These changes would bring more life into the game. Give us new species to level as, give us 12x xp but make us have to be subscribers if that helps you, a lot of people -would- pay for the sub if it meant 12x class story exp for their characters. A lot of people would return to the game as it's these side missions that people get tired of being forced to do a hundred times one different characters, it's why people do Kuat Drive Yards many times a day for the EXP. People would rather do THAT than the mind numbing tedium that comes with normal leveling. I've done those side missions myself what feels like a hundred times, but I -love- the class story missions. During 12x xp, I didn't even cringe at doing worlds I normally -loathe-, like Balmorra.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Darth_Raelen

[Quraswren]

Even though it was their Christmas break, I still think it could have been handled better. SNIP....

 

There is no doubt BW could have handled it better.

 

However, when you got a cheat or exploit as blatant as this one, the players have zero excuses for using it over and over as many times as some did, much less the ones that duplicated it and sold it and some to the extent of transferring servers just to pas it on.

 

Then you have the gamers that threw it back in BW face, daring BW to do anything to them.

 

No MMo game needs cheaters. I'm not sure any online games needs cheaters and while BW could have done more as you said, it is no excuse for some to cheat just for personal gain.

[Quraswren]

ok well you dont have the authority to kick or ban them

 

No I do not and they can thank their luck for it.

 

and they are all back playing with their items.

 

and again, good thing I can't do much about them. I dislike cheaters enough to remove them from online games.

 

are you still going to weep for the sanctity of video games and quit or what?

 

I plan on moving forward not cheating and supporting any action that removes cheaters and exploiters from this game or any.

[TUXs]

Honestly on point, while leaving the exploit in place doesn't excuse violating the ToS, the damage to the community over this nonsense really is worse than any of the other affects this might or might have been. I still cannot believe it was left in place as long as it was =/

Exactly!!! The fact that they ignored it for so long is inexcusable imo. Their past inaction on 'cheating' (or bypassing mechanics) is absolutely a contributing factor to why so many players did this without concern.

 

Bioware should have let it go imo...the punishments they issued were certainly fair and not at all extreme, but because of their immense culpability in the entire fiasco, I believe they should have let this one go and learned a lesson from it.

[DarthDymond]

Exactly!!! The fact that they ignored it for so long is inexcusable imo. Their past inaction on 'cheating' (or bypassing mechanics) is absolutely a contributing factor to why so many players did this without concern.

 

Bioware should have let it go imo...the punishments they issued were certainly fair and not at all extreme, but because of their immense culpability in the entire fiasco, I believe they should have let this one go and learned a lesson from it.

Not for nothing, but wouldn't "letting this one go" have just further compounded the issue of "their past inaction on 'cheating'"?

[azudelphi]

Not for nothing, but wouldn't "letting this one go" have just further compounded the issue of "their past inaction on 'cheating'"?

 

You are both right.

 

They do nothing, they lose.

They do something, they lose.

 

That's why I am generally content and I don't call for anything harsher than what they did. Nor do I actually care to make sure every piece of ill-gotten gains are removed (though as a matter of principle I believe they should be). I feel they had to do something, and what they did should be enough for the rational.

 

But there will be people calling for other player's heads on a plate, and they should be ignored.

Likewise, I don't believe inaction on Bioware's side is a valid course of action either. It is a dangerous precedent to be set for any future bugs; hopefully none quite as bad as this happen again.

[TUXs]

Not for nothing, but wouldn't "letting this one go" have just further compounded the issue of "their past inaction on 'cheating'"?

Given their lack of action on it, no. They flat out ignored this. They could have prevented 99% of this by simply removing the loot from the last boss...instead, they did nothing. Because of how absolutely ludicrously they handled this entire fiasco, they should have fallen on the sword on this one and issued a statement about it.

 

I think what they did was fair, don't get me wrong, but I place the fault for this almost entirely on Bioware. 3.0 was sloppy...this is what happens with absolutely shoddy quality control. Old Ops giving Ultimate comms to boot...pfft...the Ravagers was one tiny piece of MANY sloppy things they did.

[TUXs]

You are both right.

 

They do nothing, they lose.

They do something, they lose.

 

That's why I am generally content and I don't call for anything harsher than what they did. Nor do I actually care to make sure every piece of ill-gotten gains are removed (though as a matter of principle I believe they should be). I feel they had to do something, and what they did should be enough for the rational.

 

But there will be people calling for other player's heads on a plate, and they should be ignored.

Likewise, I don't believe inaction on Bioware's side is a valid course of action either. It is a dangerous precedent to be set for any future bugs; hopefully none quite as bad as this happen again.

Good post...and I agree...I think what they did was very fair and adequate, I just see this as a very big internal problem at Bioware Austin. I don't mean to excuse those who cheated (even if it sounds like I am)...they were wrong, they know it, but this is still a bigger problem with Bioware than it is the players who used it.

[Pagy]

treating use of this exploit as an actionable, egregious breach of the ToS but then not making any effort to quickly resolve it are two acts in direct opposition.

[idnewton]

Especially if their Source is nice & clean...

It isn't they keep reminding us of that.

[idnewton]

Now, I've kept my subscription going as who knows, I might actually want to log in and RP sometime, but I've actually not really played the game since the launch of the 55-60 content. Why? I couldn't stand going back to the same old leveling style after the 12x spoiled me. I -loved- leveling by only doing the class story missions, and I want the 12x class story xp to return.

 

Regardless. A few valid points were made. I've played this game off and on since early launch, and Bioware NEVER pays us back for the millions of credits we lose. Heck, I remember having to pay HUGE fees to learn speeder piloting early on in the game, and even having to pay to train to get the sprint power at level 4 I think. Did I ever get a refund on each character that paid to learn these things? Nein. Nyet. No. Never.

 

I recall it costing at least a hundred thousand credits or more to learn just speeder piloting 1, then I learned speeder piloting 2 which was even more exorbitantly expensive. I mean, it's not like these training powers for speeder piloting actually came with a speeder, that might justify the extreme cost at the time.

 

That, of course, isn't the only issue. I love not having to pay for training now, but it also means that I've wasted millions training in the past on many characters. Will I ever see a return on that investment? No.

 

Did I exploit this issue? No, as I said, I wasn't in game during any of this.

 

Would I have exploited? Yes. If you guys know about this issue before it even goes to live, and wait over four weeks to do anything about it, that's your fault, not mine. You guys make mistakes to mess us over, why not let us take advantage of your mistakes when it finally benefits us?

 

___________________________

 

And during this crusade, you could have done something more productive, like instituting 12x xp as a 3x xp for each class buff unlocked, fixing the many bugs in the game, releasing a new playable species (I want Zeltron, but many seem to prefer Togruta.)

 

As a roleplayer, leveling up quickly and having more species options is -highly- important to me, to the point that yes, I'd pay to unlock them, but frankly I think they should be free to subscribers.

 

These changes would bring more life into the game. Give us new species to level as, give us 12x xp but make us have to be subscribers if that helps you, a lot of people -would- pay for the sub if it meant 12x class story exp for their characters. A lot of people would return to the game as it's these side missions that people get tired of being forced to do a hundred times one different characters, it's why people do Kuat Drive Yards many times a day for the EXP. People would rather do THAT than the mind numbing tedium that comes with normal leveling. I've done those side missions myself what feels like a hundred times, but I -love- the class story missions. During 12x xp, I didn't even cringe at doing worlds I normally -loathe-, like Balmorra.

 

Your post has literally nothing to do with this thread. I'm sure you can find an 'I am entitled to everything' thread somewhere in the General Discussion forums, but this isn't the thread.

Edited February 2, 2015 by idnewton

[Krensky]

You keep saying "It's not good for the game" and "it's not fair".

 

On the first question, how is it not good, other than coming right back around to "cheating is bad"?

 

On the second question, that simply comes back to misplaced concern about how other people got their tools (that is, gear).

 

Because when you agreed to the ToS you agreed not to cheat. Doesn't matter if it harms anyone. You entered into an agreement with Bioware and the player community not to do something.

 

The people who exploited the op violated this agreement. They broke their word.

 

Not because it was a coerced promise. Not because it was a social contract they never explicitly agreed to. Not because they were starving or about to become homeless. Not to save puppies and kittens and orphans. They did it because they could. They violated their word because they could and felt nothing would happen.

 

They are not the sort of people you should want to associate with. Period.

 

At it heart every case of cheating comes down to this. Not that it harmed someone else or was unfair. That you agreed to a set of rules and then violated your word that you would follow them.

[LordArtemis]

I think it would have been worse had they done nothing...but either choice had consequences. In the long run I think it was better to start setting a precedent of some kind OTHER than doing nothing.

[CaptRogue]

That's why I am generally content and I don't call for anything harsher than what they did. Nor do I actually care to make sure every piece of ill-gotten gains are removed (though as a matter of principle I believe they should be). I feel they had to do something, and what they did should be enough for the rational.

 

But there will be people calling for other player's heads on a plate, and they should be ignored.

Likewise, I don't believe inaction on Bioware's side is a valid course of action either. It is a dangerous precedent to be set for any future bugs; hopefully none quite as bad as this happen again.

 

I disagree with their punishment. They seemed focused on banning people, with rather random bans at that. No rhyme or reason for who got what.

Plus their second largest focus seemed to be crafting schematics. Even though Eric said "they might/could/etc..." remove gear, I know of no one who's gear got removed. I've read of no ones gear being removed. And there was some serious exploiters on my server, quite bold about it too. All they removed was their "crafting schematics". It said it could remove coms & credits.

If they were focused on removing the ill gotten schematics, why didn't they remove the coms? Because people used the coms to learn crafting patterns. Bioware left those crafting schematics alone, even though in reality they were as illegal as the ones they learned from the loot.

 

The whole ban from 24hrs to 10 days or whatever, was basically a free card for most. A slap on the wrist if you would. I've already read people saying that if that's all they got, they would do the next exploit too, or they wish they had exploited.

 

In my opinion Bioware got nowhere with this. Nothing made anyone want to respect them/honor their TOS agreement, what ever you want to call it. Instead they are just scoffed at as much or more now than before.

 

I still don't understand why you would let the cheater get away with what he took.

That's like allowing a burglar to keep his stolen goods, even though they know where it is, and have video recording of it all.

 

My biggest frustrations with this whole fiasco right now is basically:

1. Why would you let them keep the gear but temp ban them?

2. Why did BW randomize the punishments so bad, that the great exploiters got very little time, yet someone who did very little got great time?

 

I wish Eric would step in here & give an answer to that.

My opinion, again, it's not fair. Granted yes they all cheated so they did the crime they deserve the crime but still...You get my point. (I hope. lolz)

[drgyruss]

It's over and nobody else should be complaining about anything because Bioware are the only people who decides who gets what punishment. Respect the bans that were given and what ever else bioware done to the player that exploited but stop moaning like a bunch of kids who cares what got taken away and what didn't end of the day bioware made the perfect decision and looked at the data and then made the move to take the correct action on the account.

 

Will you exploit or do win trading in the future ? I know lots that have said no way because bioware are now paying very close attention to data and will really punish players this round was more of a reminder we will get you and next time it's going to be immediate with severe action against anyone.

[TUXs]

Will you exploit or do win trading in the future ?

Huh? Did they punish win traders somewhere that they didn't mention?! Because until they attempt to, nobody believes they will/can/care.

[drgyruss]

Huh? Did they punish win traders somewhere that they didn't mention?! Because until they attempt to, nobody believes they will/can/care.

 

They did punish by resetting the players stats but how many people I don't know but would you take the risk of being a win trader after thors hammer came down in this round ?

[TUXs]

They did punish by resetting the players stats but how many people I don't know but would you take the risk of being a win trader after thors hammer came down in this round ?

LOL! I don't think they scared anyone this round...in fact, their lack of any urgency to attempt to slow it, simply emboldened others and ticked off more than a few.