Hatred Sins most OP spec in HISTORY of SWTOR

[DrWeebs]

If like to introduce a few names to you Nursridia (Vullesh) Alteronis Bad-natured at the time now Ill-tempered. These three names all got 12 second smashes oh btw vicious slash lowered the cd lol idiot double smash was the strongest comp for a long time.

You not knowing any of the basic info legitimate ranked players give you demonstrates you never did 4s or 8s for that matter.

 

(Solo que isnt 4s)

 

It was very strong, and used often in competitive comps. It was not the OPness that hatred is now. It was counterable. The problem with hatred assassins right now is they are not counterable.

FWIW, since you've called me an idiot and questioned my honesty about my ranked experience... I had a 3000+ Elo in 8v8's and hardly ever lost a game (except a few against Don't Panic, the best guild on our server at the time and a few while pugging). I have less experienced in ranked 4's because I do not enjoy it as much as I did 8's, but still have played my share.

Edited January 23, 2015 by DrWeebs

[AlrikFassbauer]

how original..

 

Your reply ? I agree.

 

I play both hatred and lightning sorc so I am going o ask a stupid question. Is it fair that for 9 secs I can not do any dmg to a sin. And then for another 5 secs I can be stun locked? That's 14 secs of immortal. Some one tell me that's balance

 

Depends on who you ask ...

Edited January 23, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Evolixe]

Are there anyone in the game who didnt roflstomped you yet?

You even didnt got to the top 200 ranked last time.. Whom are you trying to impress boy?

 

Im not interested. bye

 

Hahaha, this truely made my day

 

Who do hell do you think you are?

You can hardly match yourself up against the average player. Do you actually think you're good at the game?

[headshot_hendo]

It was very strong, and used often in competitive comps. It was not the OPness that hatred is now. It was counterable. The problem with hatred assassins right now is they are not counterable.

FWIW, since you've called me an idiot and questioned my honesty about my ranked experience... I had a 3000+ Elo in 8v8's and hardly ever lost a game (except a few against Don't Panic, the best guild on our server at the time and a few while pugging). I have less experienced in ranked 4's because I do not enjoy it as much as I did 8's, but still have played my share.

 

How is it not counterable if a double sniper comp (you claimed they were 2nd or 3rd worst dps class in the game) can beat madness. Now understandable for regs its OP as **** because badd dont know how to spread out to mitigate dot spread. But hybrid lightning madness used to require the same thing.

Instead of finding a counter people cried until disciplines came. Sin has alot of immunity but the damage isnt higher than any other class.

Now calmly and adequately explain minor changes that could reduce it and not nerf it into the ground. Madness was pure garbage until like 2.5 or so. Just like pt any spec was pure garbage for a year and change.

Sorcs were garbage healers from 2.0 til now and now they are top dogs.

 

Things change but if youve ever played a merc nerfing a class never works out well for the nerfed class. Minor fixes reduce overall damage.

[headshot_hendo]

The simplest solution is for people to stop letting their emotions take control and just stop and think. How do i beat this class? What are this classes weaknesses? What attacks or effects affect me the most?

All these garbage idiots who lose and blame the class and not their fingers, come runnin here to cry were other people who have Helen Keller hands can support them. You think you are good? Figure the **** out and beat them without a nerf.

I have 0 problems with PTs, Sins, Sorcs, or Juggs. Does this mean that im one exception out of the game? No it means i took the time to improve my gameplay to be more successful and have more fun.

Edited January 23, 2015 by headshot_hendo

[headshot_hendo]

#endthread

[Saikochoro]

Yes, because there is no such thing as player skill discrepancy. Nice try though

 

I honestly think this is where most of the arguments are coming from. If everyone were equally skilled with all classes then the overpowered ones would be clearly identified and agreed upon. Yes there would still be those who just defend a class becusse it is their favorite, but favoritism would be much easier to identify as favoritism instead of class discrepancy. Skill can over come a lot of things. I've seen some players do amazing things on generally agreed upon underpowered classes. I've seen some brain dead hatred assassins.

 

The problem:

Individual A: unskilled player of seemingly overpowered class.

Individual B: unskilled player of seemingly underpowered class.

Individual C: skilled player of seemingly overpowered class.

Individual D: skilled player of seemingly underpowered class.

$ = indication of class favoritism no matter how "op" or "up" their favorite class is.

 

Individual A can beat B pretty easily and has a chance against D, but no chance against C. Therefore they complain that they are not over performing because D can kill them.

 

Individual B can't really beat anyone so they complain that they are underpowered and everyone else is overpowered.

 

Individual C can beat A, B, and D...though D and A might give them a little more hassle. If you attach $ to them they will say their class is fine and they are just better than other players. If you leave $ off of them they will admit something may need tweaked.

 

Individual D can beat A, B, and C though C will be a very hard fight and most times will not win. They will most likely complain that C's class is op or that theirs is up though not as adamantly.

 

This is what I've noticed. Skill can overcome class discrepancy when there is a skill discrepancy, but when players are equally skilled class discrepancy will most likely determine the fight. There is skill discrepancy and a lot of complaints are founded on that. There is class favoritism and a lot of complaints and justifications are founded on that. But there are also class discrepancy that create valid complaints and suggestions. When favoritism and skill enter into the class discrepancy debate it becomes a huge debacle.

 

I try my best to not show favoritism. One of my absolute favorite classes (and my first toon) is assassin. I absolutely love them. I love darkness. I adore deception. And I cherish hatred. But I believe that hatred is one of those class discrepancy issues. They are clearly over performing.

 

My absolute favorite class of all time is the other stealth class: operatives. Concealment occupies the throne chair in my heart as favorite spec. I can't get enough of lethality. And I am addicted to healing ops. That being said, I believed that healing ops were vastly superior to Merc and sorc heals. They weren't even close (in PVP). In 2.6 when concealment got some nice buffs I defended them. I believed that the complainers were of the individual A or D class, whereas they though I was individual A class with favoritism.

 

TL;DR: Hatred sins are over performing as a discipline in and of it self. Some will defend it because they aren't good at it or because of favoritism. They are the clearest example of over performing classes since 3.0. I think op heals were the clearest example of over performance pre 3.0. (Alas my love of stealth classes). I also believe that other classes represent a class discrepancy, but there is much arguing due to skill discrepancy and class favoritism.

[headshot_hendo]

I look at it like this, double operative healer was considered OP for a while until people figured out how to beat it. It is too early to base any findings off of legitimacy. Yes its strong but are any other classes any less strong? Sorc does more damage than my shadow but relies on kiting same with PT. Sin requires less kiting due to survivability and the requirement of close encounters to be effective. I dont do 5k dps on my shadow 4k is possible but its possible with a decent amount of classes.

 

The disparity is good players dont comment on class disparity as much because it isnt an issue for them. Less skilled players who dont know specifically what they are doing (broad term dont take offense) post tons and tons because they get beat constantly and would rather blame a class instead of individual skill.

 

Now another factor is posters might play sniper mara or merc which are more susceptable to dots although a good sniper was cleanin me yesterday. There are a ton of variables that people need to account for before the SWTOR battle cry of "nerf the **** out of everyone else im losing."

[DrWeebs]

I honestly think this is where most of the arguments are coming from. If everyone were equally skilled with all classes then the overpowered ones would be clearly identified and agreed upon. Yes there would still be those who just defend a class becusse it is their favorite, but favoritism would be much easier to identify as favoritism instead of class discrepancy. Skill can over come a lot of things. I've seen some players do amazing things on generally agreed upon underpowered classes. I've seen some brain dead hatred assassins.

 

The problem:

Individual A: unskilled player of seemingly overpowered class.

Individual B: unskilled player of seemingly underpowered class.

Individual C: skilled player of seemingly overpowered class.

Individual D: skilled player of seemingly underpowered class.

$ = indication of class favoritism no matter how "op" or "up" their favorite class is.

 

Individual A can beat B pretty easily and has a chance against D, but no chance against C. Therefore they complain that they are not over performing because D can kill them.

 

Individual B can't really beat anyone so they complain that they are underpowered and everyone else is overpowered.

 

Individual C can beat A, B, and D...though D and A might give them a little more hassle. If you attach $ to them they will say their class is fine and they are just better than other players. If you leave $ off of them they will admit something may need tweaked.

 

Individual D can beat A, B, and C though C will be a very hard fight and most times will not win. They will most likely complain that C's class is op or that theirs is up though not as adamantly.

 

This is what I've noticed. Skill can overcome class discrepancy when there is a skill discrepancy, but when players are equally skilled class discrepancy will most likely determine the fight. There is skill discrepancy and a lot of complaints are founded on that. There is class favoritism and a lot of complaints and justifications are founded on that. But there are also class discrepancy that create valid complaints and suggestions. When favoritism and skill enter into the class discrepancy debate it becomes a huge debacle.

 

I try my best to not show favoritism. One of my absolute favorite classes (and my first toon) is assassin. I absolutely love them. I love darkness. I adore deception. And I cherish hatred. But I believe that hatred is one of those class discrepancy issues. They are clearly over performing.

 

My absolute favorite class of all time is the other stealth class: operatives. Concealment occupies the throne chair in my heart as favorite spec. I can't get enough of lethality. And I am addicted to healing ops. That being said, I believed that healing ops were vastly superior to Merc and sorc heals. They weren't even close (in PVP). In 2.6 when concealment got some nice buffs I defended them. I believed that the complainers were of the individual A or D class, whereas they though I was individual A class with favoritism.

 

TL;DR: Hatred sins are over performing as a discipline in and of it self. Some will defend it because they aren't good at it or because of favoritism. They are the clearest example of over performing classes since 3.0. I think op heals were the clearest example of over performance pre 3.0. (Alas my love of stealth classes). I also believe that other classes represent a class discrepancy, but there is much arguing due to skill discrepancy and class favoritism.

 

This is so on the money. Well said.

[magnashear]

Yes, because there is no such thing as player skill discrepancy. Nice try though

 

yes, I think player skill discrepancy may be your problem. Good luck with that. there's guides and stuff out there for ya

[DrWeebs]

How is it not counterable if a double sniper comp (you claimed they were 2nd or 3rd worst dps class in the game) can beat madness. Now understandable for regs its OP as **** because badd dont know how to spread out to mitigate dot spread. But hybrid lightning madness used to require the same thing.

Instead of finding a counter people cried until disciplines came. Sin has alot of immunity but the damage isnt higher than any other class.

Now calmly and adequately explain minor changes that could reduce it and not nerf it into the ground. Madness was pure garbage until like 2.5 or so. Just like pt any spec was pure garbage for a year and change.

Sorcs were garbage healers from 2.0 til now and now they are top dogs.

 

Things change but if youve ever played a merc nerfing a class never works out well for the nerfed class. Minor fixes reduce overall damage.

 

If you have some evidence to support that "snipers beat hatred assassins", then I'll discuss it, but as of right now you're the only one who seems to have that opinion. I will stick to my opinion that hatred assassins have no counter right now.

 

There are a ton of ways to nerf the hatred sins right now. The reason there are a ton of ways to nerf them is their main problem is they have too many tools, not that one spell is overtuned (like old smashers for example). If you have a class that can pump out damage, they need to be more easily killed (Like a PT, or a Sorc). The things that make assassins so difficult to deal with are not the damage abilities. Lots of classes can pump out high damage. Sorcs can, PT's can, Jugs can (but not to the extent assassins can), Snipers can. The difference is that assassins have an answer for every possible bad situation and their answers allow them to just keep on fighting sustained without much interruption. Sure, sorcs are hard to kill, they are slippery and quick... but they have to run, they have to LOS, take time to self-heal, are interruptable, can't cast their 2nd best damage ability (Crushing Darkness) while on the run, barrier is a nice way to mitigate some damage and buy time, but you're sitting still unable to cast for the entire 8 seconds. On the other hand, assassins pop shroud, pop deflect, get self heals from their damage, are immune to cc, and they just keep pounding away and spreading dots and pumping out damage. They get in real trouble? Re-stealth or phase-walk, resposition themselves, heal-up, re-open... and they still have the same slipperyness as sorcs with force speed/aoe knockback. Oh, and they're taunting for their teammates while they do all of this. So, the assassin at the end of the round will lead significantly in damage, will also add protection, and will have taken by far more damage to kill. Like I said earlier, I was a 3000 elo ranked player at one point, and if I do 150-200k on my sorc/jugg, the assassin did 300k+ and also protted 50k and took 300-400k damage while I took 200-300k and did no prot. It's too much. There's not a lot of room for disparity of skill at the top-end in this game... this is a low skill-cap MMO, mainly because of the woefully slow GCD of 1.5s. For that type of disparity to occur consistently for one AC is not good for the game. I'm not emotional about it. I'm simply re-rolling a hatred sin until they nerf them.

 

As the astute poster above said, hatred sins are simply "overperforming".

 

So, what do you nerf? Anything. Just don't overnerf. Bioware is notorious for overnerfing. Nerf the damage? Nerf small amounts on various skills, and then watch how they perform. Nerf them again if needed. Keep the survivability. Nerf the survivability? Keep the damage. Personally, I think their damage needs to be nerfed. They're a natural tanking class, and their damage numbers should be more in line with where vengeance juggernauts are, and keep them hard to kill. Let PT's/Sorcs/Snipers/Operatives be the bursty squishy classes.

 

The biggest problem here is that bioware will never do this. They don't put much of their resources into PVP. It will be months before a nerf, and they're only gonna do it once, and they will likely overnerf. So, like I said, until then, me and my friends are gonna be rolling hatred assassins.

Edited January 23, 2015 by DrWeebs

[Evolixe]

I look at it like this, double operative healer was considered OP for a while until people figured out how to beat it. It is too early to base any findings off of legitimacy. Yes its strong but are any other classes any less strong? Sorc does more damage than my shadow but relies on kiting same with PT. Sin requires less kiting due to survivability and the requirement of close encounters to be effective. I dont do 5k dps on my shadow 4k is possible but its possible with a decent amount of classes.

 

The disparity is good players dont comment on class disparity as much because it isnt an issue for them. Less skilled players who dont know specifically what they are doing (broad term dont take offense) post tons and tons because they get beat constantly and would rather blame a class instead of individual skill.

 

Now another factor is posters might play sniper mara or merc which are more susceptable to dots although a good sniper was cleanin me yesterday. There are a ton of variables that people need to account for before the SWTOR battle cry of "nerf the **** out of everyone else im losing."

 

Can you stop defending hatreds current state?

It's ridiculously powerful and way above the norm.

 

Thank you.

[Azurestone]

Hatred is a stealth class that has burst, AOE, amazing DCDs, and both ranged abilities and melee abilities. What really annoys me in solo ranked is that they can reset combat 3 times max, so totally immune to tunneling.

[Legoncy]

Hatred should be a purely sustained spec, that puts a good amount of pressure over time. Currently, it has the best of both worlds, in that it has both great sustained and burst... On top of that it has exceptional AoE DoT spreading.

 

I've been playing Sin/Shadow since beta, and even I think this spec is now over the top. It trumps every other spec in every aspect because it literally has everything...

 

When they do nerf Hatred/Serenity, they need to rebuffed Decep/Infil. Sin/Shadow middle tree needs more burst, since it got nerfed in 3.0. Now it has mediocre damage at best, but pretty good survivability. They need to take the burst from Hatred/Serenity and give it back to Deception/Infil. Then it'd be in a better state, both specs would be playing the role they are suppose to be playing... Decep/Infil as burst, and Hatred/Serenity as sustained.

[Natharon]

As someone who played scrapper scoundrel at launch I laugh at this notion.

[KTap]

Just want to add my little bit here from a mostly PvE player perspective.

 

There is PvE in this game as well, and the devs have to take both PvE and PvP into consideration when making any class changes.

 

Assassin/Shadow DPS, for instance, is actually quite bad in PvE compared to some other classes. Meanwhile, Merc/Commando DPS is above everyone else in PvE. Going to use these classes as examples, but you get the basic idea.

 

These classes are essentially opposite in PvP, with Assassin/Shadow DPS being much more viable than Merc/Mando DPS. I understand this is due to all the utilities and what not, but you get the point.

 

They cannot just remove DPS from the Assassin (killing it for PvE) and add DPS to Mercs (even more overpowered PvE). They cannot just get rid of Assassin immunities and defensives or Assassin tanks would be hurt in PvE. You can't just give bounty hunters more defensives or PT tanks would be even stronger in PvE. etc.

 

They (Bioware) are nowhere near balancing both PvE and PvP together, and I doubt they ever will be. Something will always be more ideal for a given situation. Obviously we would like the balance to be closer than what it is, so we can play what we want and remain competitive, but it's always been pretty far off imo.

 

I could go on, but I'll stop there. I don't see many posts on these forums about how possible changes would effect PvE (I know most of you don't care), so I thought I'd chime in

 

Carry on!

Edited January 24, 2015 by KTap

[cs_zoltan]

yes, I think player skill discrepancy may be your problem. Good luck with that. there's guides and stuff out there for ya

 

Ah the obvious "my class is not op, it's all skillz" defending stance. Nothing new here. Keep saying it to yourself while you fall asleep if it makes you feel better

[cs_zoltan]

The disparity is good players dont comment on class disparity as much because it isnt an issue for them. Less skilled players who dont know specifically what they are doing (broad term dont take offense) post tons and tons because they get beat constantly and would rather blame a class instead of individual skill.

 

And then there are those who defend their OP class because they want people to believe that it's all skill and not the class.

[cs_zoltan]

Assassin/Shadow DPS, for instance, is actually quite bad in PvE compared to some other classes. Meanwhile, Merc/Commando DPS is above everyone else in PvE. Going to use these classes as examples, but you get the basic idea

 

That's mostly because of the retarded ops design that they have for quite some time now which heavily favours ranged.

[foxmob]

Just want to add my little bit here from a mostly PvE player perspective.

 

There is PvE in this game as well, and the devs have to take both PvE and PvP into consideration when making any class changes.

 

Assassin/Shadow DPS, for instance, is actually quite bad in PvE compared to some other classes. Meanwhile, Merc/Commando DPS is above everyone else in PvE. Going to use these classes as examples, but you get the basic idea.

 

<snip>

your point, while true, is also irrelevant. there at AT LEAST 2 dps specs for every AC. my math skills aren't spectacular, but I think it's possible to ensure that AT LEAST one spec is viable in PVE and another (if not the same) is viable in PVP. all they have to do is built things into the specific disciplines. now a PVEer cannot dip into something designed for PVP that would make the PVEer a god in raids and vice versa. your point, while true, is immaterial. there are just a few very poorly designed ACs and disciplines.

 

ppl will always whine if their particular spec isn't the best spec, but it's perfectly reasonable for assault to be viable in pvp while crap in pve and have gunnery be crap in pvp while being aces in pve. that's fine. that's still balance. the only trick is with the tank and heal roles because they don't have a 2nd spec to dev toward one format or another. that said...the issue here is mostly about entire ACs with crap dps specs (at the very least).

[KTap]

your point, while true, is also irrelevant. there at AT LEAST 2 dps specs for every AC. my math skills aren't spectacular, but I think it's possible to ensure that AT LEAST one spec is viable in PVE and another (if not the same) is viable in PVP. all they have to do is built things into the specific disciplines. now a PVEer cannot dip into something designed for PVP that would make the PVEer a god in raids and vice versa. your point, while true, is immaterial. there are just a few very poorly designed ACs and disciplines.

 

ppl will always whine if their particular spec isn't the best spec, but it's perfectly reasonable for assault to be viable in pvp while crap in pve and have gunnery be crap in pvp while being aces in pve. that's fine. that's still balance. the only trick is with the tank and heal roles because they don't have a 2nd spec to dev toward one format or another. that said...the issue here is mostly about entire ACs with crap dps specs (at the very least).

 

I was mostly just posting to share my thoughts, I'm not trying to debate exactly what changes could be made (you folks are much more knowledgeable about pvp balance than I am).

 

I will say though, that something like you suggested would work, but then people are pigeonholed into 1 spec even more so than now imo, which I don't think is good. I've always liked the idea of having different specs for pvp myself, that would only work in warzones (and open world for pvp servers), so they could focus on balancing both PvE and PvP individually without hindering or overpowering the other side (I can dream, right?).

 

That's mostly because of the retarded ops design that they have for quite some time now which heavily favours ranged.

 

True enough, but Powertechs at least are still very viable for PvE.

Edited January 24, 2015 by KTap

[Iona_Var]

I just don't want to see them nerfed to the point that no one in their right mind would play that spec as they were in the past. Yes they need to be toned down a bit but they are in a decent spot for pve right now and I fear that bioware may over-nerf them back to how they used to be: a useless spec for pvp and a spec that no one wants to have on their ops team.

[foxmob]

I will say though, that something like you suggested would work, but then people are pigeonholed into 1 spec even more so than now imo, which I don't think is good. I've always liked the idea of having different specs for pvp myself, that would only work in warzones (and open world for pvp servers), so they could focus on balancing both PvE and PvP individually without hindering or overpowering the other side (I can dream, right?)..

situation now: some ACs have zero viable specs. result of trying to achieve balance for all specs.

 

my proposal: one AC is viable in both formats. he merely has to change specs. sorry if you don't like "the other" spec. but it's patently ridiculous to have an entire AC lack viability. deal with only having one good spec per format. at least you can play your toon in BOTH formats.

[KumbayaGOD]

i seldom qq in the forum about any class , because in good hands some class are very good no matter what like sentinel/marauder that is not so favorable but i have seen some people that is very good in mara/sent before 3.0 and still perform very good after 3.0

 

but yeah hatred assasin is OP as hell , they have so many bursst, dcd and tools that is almost unkitable

so with equal skills people who do ranked pvp or 4 vs 4 will have hard time to beat it

 

so nerf is in order

[magnashear]

Ah the obvious "my class is not op, it's all skillz" defending stance. Nothing new here. Keep saying it to yourself while you fall asleep if it makes you feel better

 

First off if I'm glowing yellow stop spamming force tech attacks on me. It's probably people like you why I keep seeing "resist " floating over my head. What class do u main? Most be pt or sort huh? U ragin on the forums in hope the nerf bat doesn't swing your way?